tibiotarsus
 member, 62 posts
 Hopepunk with a shovel
Wed 21 Aug 2019
at 07:34
Too Many Expectations
Chiming in just to say that for people who have trouble conceptualising money beyond a binary of have money(infinite spending!)/no money, giving them money in cash is the most effective way to make them understand what they're spending. Invisible money flows like water, handing over your last fiver, not so much. Good luck!
GreenTongue
 member, 878 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 00:31
Re: Too Many Expectations
Brianna:
In reply to V_V (msg # 1429):

Good luck and hang tough!  If you need to go that far, remember you can buy the groceries, and take her car to put the gas in, rather than give her money.

This.
When someone is having problems controlling their finances, giving them more money is just enabling. Buying what is _needed_ is the best way to help. If they need more, they need to make the hard choice.
Shannara
 moderator, 3835 posts
 Keep calm, drink more
 COFFEE!!!!
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 00:49
Re: Too Many Expectations
tibiotarsus:
Chiming in just to say that for people who have trouble conceptualising money beyond a binary of have money(infinite spending!)/no money, giving them money in cash is the most effective way to make them understand what they're spending. Invisible money flows like water, handing over your last fiver, not so much. Good luck!



The problem creeps in when their last fiver is not their last fiver, because all the people who keep giving them money will just give them more.

What some people learn when people keep rescuing them from the consequences of making mistakes is that there ARE no consequences ... until they run out of friends.

This message was last edited by the user at 01:08, Fri 23 Aug.

Aleph Null
 member, 19 posts
 I have my PhD
 In Wumbology
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 20:40
Have you had a GM like this?
So I was going to join a game on a virtual tabletop site, and it seemed great -- a high level AD&D 2e game is a rarity, so I thought I'd try it out. The GM says "write me a 12 page backstory, and make sure your sheet is complete, as long as you do that you can play whatever you want." I spend 6-ish hours making the best backstory I can, completing every detail in the sheet. But I made one mistake: I wrote "good" instead of "neutral good" in the alignment box. Seeing this, the GM's response was "make a different character." Didn't even look at the rest of the sheet or the 12-page backstory I wrote. Oh, and the kicker -- the other players didn't have a single word of backstory on their characters.
I ask the guy, "Why can't I just revise it to meet your expectations which were never listed in the first place?"
His response is to kick me from the game without a word.
Gosh, I really hate some internet communities.
Silverlock
 member, 103 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 22:00
Have you had a GM like this?
In reply to Aleph Null (msg # 1434):

I'm sorry you had this happen.  I tried a couple of times to get into rpgs, and whenever I'm required to write a novelette for a backstory, and do 'test posts' it always ends poorly for me.  I've also had games where I got accepted, waited weeks for a single post to the point where I would check in every few days or so, then when I didn't respond to the GM's post within 12 hours, the GM had my PC killed.   Another notable instance was the GM accepting my PC, failing to post for me, and when I submitted another PC I got a post that actually had my first PC as an NPC for my new PC to meet....talk about lazy.  Running a game should not be a power trip where the GM aims to cause as much trouble as possible for people, it should be a set of challenges that the players try to surmount in order to reach a certain goal.   Characters develop over time, and that's more interesting than having a document backstory with a lot of guessing and gloss.   I understand your disappointment, you are not alone.

Essentially, that was a game you didn't want to be in, in the first place.  I hope you find a good one and can enjoy it.  I don't have any advice on how to do that though.
aguy777
 member, 324 posts
 Join Date:
 Thu, 28 Nov, 2013
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 22:25
Re: Have you had a GM like this?
Aleph Null:
The GM says "write me a 12 page backstory

A 12 page backstory? I would've backed out then and there! Requesting a brief character backstory is fine and expected, but a short novel is kinda ridiculous in my opinion.

If the GM kicked you for your question, be glad you were kicked. That game isn't the type you want to be in. Sorry you had to put up with that, but at least now you're free to find a better, more reasonable, game.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1267 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 03:08
Have you had a GM like this?
In reply to Aleph Null (msg # 1434):

Sounded like that GM was power tripping - kind of GM that it is just better to avoid as they are not mentally mature enough to run a game. Or much of anything else.
The massive back story request tends to come from such GMs in my experience - it's a huge red flag. So now you know better.
Brianna
 member, 2197 posts
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 06:41
Have you had a GM like this?
In reply to Aleph Null (msg # 1434):

12 page backstory??  I would have been out of there!  !2 page history is what you get after you play the character for months!
Isida KepTukari
 member, 296 posts
 Elegant! Arrogant! Smart!
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 07:13
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
Welp, at this point I've dropped plot breadcrumbs, plot pebbles, plot bricks, and plot anvils.  I debated applying a clue-by-four to the narrative but decided it wasn't worth it.  I couldn't make the plot-bait more tempting than if I covered it with glitter and sparkles.  If they want to wander off into Nowheresville, I will just have to make up a new adventure in Nowheresville...  *sigh*

This message was last edited by the user at 09:33, Sun 25 Aug.

tibiotarsus
 member, 63 posts
 Hopepunk with a shovel
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 09:11
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
...have the key to the Nowhereville situation kidnapped by the forces of your original intended campaign? It sounds like you need to be subtle, because your players have a suspicion they can't explore once they get on well-marked highway Plot This Way...still, maybe do a bit of sounding out as to what they want, as they might not have been into the main plot anyway. Alternatively, just let 'em run off over there and let the consequences of whatever they ignored play out, it'll be great!

@Shannara - Aye, I know that all too well, but there was mention of giving the friend a budget in there, and if it's in the bank account it'll just evaporate like a puff of steam, was all I meant. Making money visible has a strong psychological effect - I've heard of a documentary where a family began pulling themselves out of chronic debt after being instructed to put what money they had (coins and whatever notes friends lent) into clear glass jars, and I've seen it work on two previous over-spenders with that binary all/none concept of money myself.
seraphmoon
 member, 98 posts
 "Plays well with others."
 Talks lots. Reads more.
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 18:10
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
In reply to Isida KepTukari (msg # 1439):

Is the plot you've dropped hints for location-specific, or can you adapt it to taking place in Nowheresville? Or is it more of a "I need to hire a group to rescue the kidnapped prince! / We're not interested in rescuing kidnapped princes." sort of situation?
Isida KepTukari
 member, 297 posts
 Elegant! Arrogant! Smart!
Mon 26 Aug 2019
at 05:43
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
They've already got the first part of the plot well in hand, I was just trying to get them some answers to many of their questions in a timely fashion (play by post being what it is, too much time passes and people can forget why they were in an area in the first place). But if they don't want to check out where I was dropping clues (which would be the very logical place to search for answers), I'll just move maligned plot elsewhere in the world...

This message was last edited by the user at 05:44, Mon 26 Aug.

NowhereMan
 member, 329 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 10:07
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
In reply to Isida KepTukari (msg # 1442):

As the founder and primary resident of Nowheresville, I'd appreciate a bit of warning before you drop any wandering murderhobos into my neck of the woods, Isida.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1269 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 03:49
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
In reply to NowhereMan (msg # 1443):

Your neck of the woods is roughtly the size of Russia, so you need not worry to much about the murder hobo's finding you.
NowhereMan
 member, 332 posts
Fri 30 Aug 2019
at 04:26
You can lead an adventuring group to the tavern...
Oh, like that's ever stopped a murderhobo. If it was deemed plot-important that it stay alive, they'd find and kill the one single living bacteria on Mars, and they'd do it within about twelve minutes.
Kessa
 member, 598 posts
 Dark Army:
 Out to Lunch
Mon 9 Sep 2019
at 21:45
Them good ole days....
I hate, hate, hate the way job applications are processed these days. Everything is snipped down into tiny pieces, shoved through a filter program, and then a few lucky apps get spat out to hiring managers if they happen to have a few random key words tensed just so.

Not only does it take forever to reformat, or adjust a resume because the filter doesn't know how to handle tenses or synonyms, but even if you have them, if the search parameters aren't set up correctly, it might not even matter. Or, even better... the sites that do this PLUS ask you to retype the entire resume. Yes, cut and paste is a thing, but you still have to go back over it again to make sure it looks good and doesn't contain a bunch of '&&;' errors and it's usually not just a single cut/ paste, but a hundred individual boxes that, yes, I can probably retype faster than copy/ pasting anyway. And let's not forget software and webpage errors that are there to conveniently lock you out half-way through an application, or buttons that don't work like they're supposed to.

Yes, it's beautiful to see hundreds of resumes being submitted for a job in the internet, but a lot of the bad ones get shot through because of search terms and a lot of the good ones never even make it to being printed for an initial human glance. Not only does it significantly extend my time working on every individual resume, but I honestly believe it wastes hiring employees time and often provides sub-par applicants.

Why can't I just walk into a place, smile at someone, and hand them a piece of paper? I have literally never been turned down for a job I've applied to that way. </rant>
GreenTongue
 member, 879 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Tue 10 Sep 2019
at 10:39
Them good ole days....
In reply to Kessa (msg # 1446):

As there is usually far more people wanting a job than there are openings, the goal is to reduce the number of applicants that the hiring person has to look at.
These filter programs work well at doing that.

I'm not sure the qualification actually matter, as most new hires have to be trained anyway.
Kessa
 member, 599 posts
 Dark Army:
 Out to Lunch
Tue 10 Sep 2019
at 18:31
Re: Them good ole days....
Yes, the filters definitely do cut down the pool, the way they do so is where my frustrations lie. Often having to toss in key terms in the verbatim style of the listing makes resumes sound worse than they would normally and horribly repetitive. I don't have an issue with trying to implement a filtering system, but some of these are so bad I almost feel like they do more harm than good.

GreenTongue:
In reply to Kessa (msg # 1446):

I'm not sure the qualification actually matter, as most new hires have to be trained anyway.

I have to disagree here. If this is the case, why not just hire the first person who applies? Qualifications definitely matter. That's the whole point of taking multiple applicants, to find the one who is most qualified, or otherwise the best fit. I could theoretically have no experience with home appraisal, but toss in a an application because I like the salary being offered, figuring I'll figure out the basics later when other people have been doing it for years and don't need to take extra time to figure out anything.
GreenTongue
 member, 880 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Tue 10 Sep 2019
at 19:10
Re: Them good ole days....
In reply to Kessa (msg # 1448):

I guess I just have a sour taste because I once made the mistake of taking off on my lunch break to go to an interview for basically the job I was already doing that they were going to make permanent and better paid.
Because it was inter-company and I was on my lunch break I didn't take time to "Dress the part".

A total nub that I had to train got the job.

Found out that I didn't have the right image for the job because I was wearing my work clothes to the interview.

So, yeah, qualifications are not the deciding factor surprisingly often.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1270 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Tue 10 Sep 2019
at 21:00
Re: Them good ole days....
In reply to Kessa (msg # 1448):

Years ago, before the internet stuff - I kept running in to the problem of 'need x amount of experience' for a job. One of my favorites on that for pure stupid was a company wanting 10 years experience in a field that had only been around 5 years. Litterally did not exist prior to that time cause the technology did not exist. I had at that time 3 years experience in that field - could not get the HR people to understand why they could not get someone with as much experience as they wanted.
Now days, most every job is apply online and hope someone see's it and has enough brains to actually check a resume - seen to many people with fake online resume's get jobs they are so not qualified for just cause they know how to work the system.
BFink
 member, 61 posts
Wed 11 Sep 2019
at 09:49
Re: Them good ole days....
In reply to ShadoPrism (msg # 1450):

Yup, these days knowing how to properly (and successfully) apply for jobs appears to be a separate qualification. At the same time almost everyone working in HR is so dumb that my mind cannot comprehend it.
Yaztromo
 supporter, 289 posts
Wed 11 Sep 2019
at 11:52
Re: Them good ole days....
There is also another issue creeping up majestically, i.e. the compulsive appliers that do apply to literally any job posting on internet (obviously without even reading the job requests), just because they don't have to pay for a stamp for each application. This is spamming massively the tools, that show often hundreds of applications from people that has nothing to do with that job opening.
Having to put a stamp on the envelope of each application used to be a good enough filter.
praguepride
 member, 1506 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Fri 13 Sep 2019
at 22:32
Re: Them good ole days....
A buddy of mine quit is job to make a board game. I wanted to try and support him so I demoed it and came back with a ton of feedback. Now granted it is pre-alpha but I had some basic tips like increase the font size on the cards because currently his cards used tiny font and graphics so the majority of the card was blank. I then explained some parts of the rules that were either confusing or perhaps in the rulebook should be reordered.

Anyway I wrote him paragraphs of in depth feedback.

His response was basically a bullet-by-bullet response basically saying that it's not wrong. Now not in a constructive way like "The reason X is here is because I tried it over here and it made things worse so this is the result of other feedback" but instead it was like "Well its pre-alpha so it doesn't matter" or "Well other people didn't mind it that way"

Like you do you dood but that's the last bit of feedback I'm giving you.
katrionea
 member, 8 posts
Tue 17 Sep 2019
at 15:18
Re: Them good ole days....
In reply to praguepride (msg # 1453):

That's too bad. In my experience, it's not every day that a friend is willing to provide in-depth feedback instead of just offering vague praise.

I don't have the right mindset for game dev, but as an artist, I can safely say that constructive criticism is always more valuable than praise. Pinning my picture to the metaphorical fridge and telling me its the bestest ever doesn't help me; telling me that I chose an awkward color palette that makes everything look washed out, or something like that, does help me, since I can re-examine my work with that comment in mind.
V_V
 member, 851 posts
 Remember me as V, just V
 My journey is near an end
Tue 17 Sep 2019
at 17:50
Re: Them good ole days....
In reply to praguepride (msg # 1453):

I can completely sympathize. You want your buddy to succeed, do what he enjoys for a profit, and help them overcome potential pitfalls. Then...they just want to be told they're doing everything right, or want to find criticism with your critiques.

My one time buddy did this once (only he didn't quit his job/s).


Spoiler for what happened to me: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
It was my birthday, and I invited him over to celebrate by playing a board game. He brought over what he and, apparently, his OTHER buddy were creating. I played it, and it seemed to have steep learning curve, but a lot like Legendary. It's big draw he kept pushing was "The enemy starts with everything they need, and if you don't stop them they WILL win" which meant it was more of memorizing the deck and playing through a precise sequence of motions, rather than making strategy based on a purely random environment. Essentially, the enemy would get sequential bumps to their power, but you KNEW that no matter what you were going to face the same modifier by like turn 15. So I told him I didn't like the game very much, because it felt like many of the turns were spent just letting the villain buff himself, while the players were struggling to just move, even if doing nothing else, to confront the enemy. That it was superfluous what the players did, because if they rushed on, it would take minimum six turns, and they would be severely under-equipped, whereas if they spent some time equipping and some moving, they would likewise be under-equipped, because it would take longer to move, and therefore the enemy would have longer to just equip himself. The only sensible thing to do, was just equip, and ignore the fires going on in the city, wherein you could beat the villain despite the city in shambles, because the villain would come to you.

Well, he didn't like this. Saying "Well my hero has a special card that lets him move"  Okay, well why don't you just make ALL heroes do that, and give some other level strategy. "Well, this is an example of choosing the right hero" So after about half an hour of criticizing it, I gave up and asked if we could play something else. To which he said "C'mon, it needs to be playtested. Besides, we only played like five times, you'll do better next time. We haven't even played on the hard mode!" So I had to coolly tell him it was my birthday and we had already played the game five times, and maybe trying something else would be a breath of fresh air. So he just said "okay, I'll just playtest it myself" which meant him playing solo...at my birthday, and we had to tell him we needed to serve the food on the table.



So my experience was far more due to circumstance and who I was dealing with, but nonetheless, it felt like a waste of my time, and was very much unappreciated. So I know how that is. Mike asked how expensive is was to print, and I told him, to which he said "Ookay, I guess I'll just print them out of my bubble printer" and when I told him that would lower the entire bid anyone would pay, he said "No it won't!" to which I just shrugged.

Some people just want to be told they're doing it right, and only have confirmation bias.

Needless to say, because of the exasperation of Mike's attitude, and other things he did that were impolite, Mike and I are no longer buddies.

You don't seem to have extenuating problems, and yeah, probably best not to waste time trying to give criticism if he's more interested in someone else's opinion, evidenced by some of the quotes you shared.