Dream Sequence
 member, 71 posts
 Certainly the loveliest,
 most civilized of us all
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 16:24
Re: It's a waste of time...
I'm going to time how long it takes me to type the following:

quote:
Hey guys, I'm super swamped here, please don't be alarmed by a few days of no posting.

Nine seconds.  And I'm not a very fast typer.

Not one person on RPoL is too busy to type that.  Literally zero.  There may in theory be humans on planet Earth who are too busy to spare nine seconds from their day, but neither you nor anyone in any of your games nor anyone you've ever met in person are one of them.
NowhereMan
 member, 418 posts
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 16:28
Re: It's a waste of time...
Nine seconds that requires a computer and an Internet connection, things that may or may not be available to a particular player at a particular time.

For instance, back on a previous ISP, we would have Internet outages for a week at a time. Or, perhaps, a player's only computer crashes, and it takes them a while to repair it. They're both busy, and incapable of posting. Nine seconds or not.
Piestar
 member, 836 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 16:30
Re: It's a waste of time...
In reply to NowhereMan (msg # 1772):

You have to take in to account though that the peeve in question refers to people who have the time and resources to peek at the game, without the wherewithal to spend that nine seconds.
NowhereMan
 member, 419 posts
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 16:38
Re: It's a waste of time...
"Not one person on RPoL is too busy to type that.  Literally zero." was the line I was responding to. That includes your original people, and everyone else.
Piestar
 member, 837 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 16:51
Re: It's a waste of time...
In reply to NowhereMan (msg # 1774):

Not gonna fight, just explaining the position.
Dream Sequence
 member, 72 posts
 Certainly the loveliest,
 most civilized of us all
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 16:57
Re: It's a waste of time...
"Too busy" refers only to people who claim to have been "too busy."  Not to people who claim to have had connection problems or medical complications or nervous breakdowns or anything else.
Evil Empryss
 supporter, 1574 posts
 Insert witty and
 appropriate quote here
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 20:14
Re: It's a waste of time...
How about this take:

Sometimes it isn't about having the time or the connectivity or other resources. Sometimes it's about not having the mental health to be able to face the fact that you ghosted, disappointing people who were counting on you. Knowing that you might be facing harsh criticisms like "how hard would it have been to just take nine seconds let us know you weren't going to be around for a while?"

Real fruiting hard sometimes.

And sometimes you're hoping that the problems you're having will only last a day, or a week, and the next thing you realize as you come up out of your funk six very real months have passed without a word from you to the people in your game. And trying to explain can be more embarrassing than you can deal with, especially if you hardly know the people in the game. Even worse, you might get someone who thinks mental illness isn't real and lashes out at you for your "lame excuse". So you don't try.

You don't know what's going on in other people's lives. Some people are jerks and bail for no reason and never explain themselves, yeah, but some people have a harder time of it than that. Unless you know for sure, please try not to judge too harshly.
ShadoPrism
 member, 1372 posts
 OCGD-Obsessive-Compulsive
 Gamer-Disorder
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 23:48
Re: It's a waste of time...
I am so sick of ppl who cheat or mess with others in MMO's. Modders and hackers who randomly change the rules for thier own entertainment really peeve me off. GTAO is really bad about that sort of Troll like persons and nothing the company does gets them to leave. Even law suits don't work (I keep up with the news feeds and know they are actively suing several modding companies, not that it does any good.)
Piestar
 member, 838 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Sat 13 Feb 2021
at 23:57
Re: It's a waste of time...
In reply to ShadoPrism (msg # 1778):

Gad yes, those kind of people have no class. Where is the pride in success, if you have to cheat to get there. People like that ruin a game...
praguepride
 member, 1769 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Thu 18 Feb 2021
at 22:22
Re: It's a waste of time...
This isn't so much a problem as it is a curiousity that I cannot keep contained. A game of mine has the players seemingly accidentally bypassing 75% of the content. Like they enter a room with four doors and they don't just immediately pick the right door, but they never circle back to check the other doors out.

It isn't a problem for me but it is going to be a problem for them because they are beelining straight to the final boss without picking up the treasure and XP that they should have at this point.

I'm worried that when they meet the final boss and get splattered that they're going to be upset at how difficult it was. Or worse that they get lucky and beat the final boss and leave and never come back thus bypassing tons of cool encounters. I mean there was supposed to be an NPC that joins them to help them fight the final boss that they're likely to never even encounter, let alone complete her cool side story.

I'm not upset that they're bypassing encounters, I'm upset that they might think I'm being stingy or not doing proper level design when they finally reach encounters they can't outluck or outsmart and the game mechanics crunches them for speedrunning the megadungeon.
Piestar
 member, 840 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Thu 18 Feb 2021
at 22:34
Re: It's a waste of time...
In reply to praguepride (msg # 1780):

That is odd, as my characters tend to be annoyingly completionist, I really like to check out every nook and cranny if the game allows.

That said, a lot depends on how far you are will or able to adjust things. Tough if it is a module of course, but it should always be possible to push the boss further away and put more things between them and him to give them the oomph they need to succeed.

If they are still heading towards the big boss, things could be worse, too many stories where the party wanders aimlessly away from the plot.
jkeogh
 member, 100 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 01:48
Constantly the victim lol
In reply to praguepride (msg # 1780):

What a tough balance. On the one hand your players are active and pursuing the common goal and not getting bogged down in the “weeds” of the dungeon. But on the other hand getting bogged down would help them in the long run.

A similar thing has been discussed on the Glass Cannon Podcast lately as they have skipped massive amounts of encounters and are likely about to get owned by the final boss of the entire adventure path.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 370 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 01:56
Constantly the victim lol
Alternatively, there's always the possibility of the encounters happening in the "proper" order, from your point of view, regardless of what order they open doors in...

Sometimes it's best to let the characters feel like they have license, not necessarily give them completely free rein with it.
NowhereMan
 member, 420 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 02:48
Constantly the victim lol
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 1783):

I couldn't disagree more. If the players don't have meaningful choices, don't pretend there's a choice at all.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 371 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 03:57
Constantly the victim lol
I would normally agree, NowhereMan, but if the issue at play is 'The players chose to go through X encounters in the wrong order, and they might be screwed and wind up angry at their GM because they did so', then I'd counter that the onus is on the GM to make sure the encounters happen in the right order so that the game itself doesn't fall apart.

If the GM is concerned about the outcome being an adverse one, as it clearly seems like it might be.
Piestar
 member, 841 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 04:11
Constantly the victim lol
In reply to NowhereMan (msg # 1784):

So what you say saying is, when we are playing make believe, we shouldn't pretend?
NowhereMan
 member, 421 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 04:52
Constantly the victim lol
@SunRuanEr: In such a situation, I think it would be better for the GM to have a way for their players to understand that they are nearing the "boss" encounter and allow them to backtrack if they choose to do so. Or even the OOC "hey, you realize that by skipping large sections of the dungeon, you're missing out on loot and experience you might need later".

Taking away player agency through the quantum ogre just means that the players will continue doing what they were doing already, and will lead to you having the exact same problem in the future.

@Piestar: Talk about a bad faith argument. But I'll indulge you anyway. There is a difference between playing pretend and meta-game pretending. You wouldn't call it "playing pretend" if one of your players was "pretending" that every roll they made was a natural 20. Making both Door A and Door B lead to Encounter C turns a dungeon exploration adventure into a dungeon railroad theme park ride, which isn't the same thing at all.
Piestar
 member, 842 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 05:01
Constantly the victim lol
In reply to NowhereMan (msg # 1787):

It wasn't an argument, it was a joke.

That said, ever ridden a roller-coaster? The path is all laid out, but the illusion of risk is sufficient to make it a very popular ride. Same is true with movies and books.

As long as the players are having fun, I an content, and in my experience having meaningful choices has never been a factor in how much fun they were having. If anything, it often works in the opposite direction.
NowhereMan
 member, 422 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 05:09
Constantly the victim lol
My apologies, I should have known.

Anyway, I don't disagree. However, the difference with a roller coaster is that you know you're on one. I personally don't mind the odd railroady adventure path game, as it allows me to switch off the old thinker and hit stuff with a stick for a while. But, I want to know that's what I'm in for. Player agency is important, both in the game and the metagame. If player agency is to be suspended, the player should have a say in it. You gotta let them choose whether or not to get on the roller coaster.
Zag24
 supporter, 677 posts
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 14:31
Skin in the Game
In reply to praguepride (msg # 1780):

Oh!  I hope that's not the game I'm in.  :-)  (Hardly.  Not only am I pushing for completionism, but we are hardly pushing our way through the place quickly.)

There are a hundred ways to channel the PCs without actually seeming to do so.
* You can make the final boss behind a door that needs keys that can only be obtained in the different places you want them to go first (i.e. the video game approach).  This makes it more obvious, but it's such an established trope that nobody is likely to be offended.
* You can make the final boss be behind a secret door that they fail to notice on the first pass through ...
* or that only your NPC knows how to open ...
* or only the NPC has the key for.
* or it's actually a trek to find the final boss, that they wouldn't even know to go on until meeting the NPC and hearing their story.
* You can change the map around so that whichever way they choose to go is the one that leads to the 'first' encounter.  This is tricky and not likely to be noticed, but it feels wrong to me, somehow (not that I haven't done it).

This message was last edited by the user at 14:33, Fri 19 Feb.

praguepride
 member, 1770 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Fri 19 Feb 2021
at 22:29
Skin in the Game
The beautiful thing about running about a dozen games on RPOL and a couple of games offline is that as long as I am vague and change the set dressings I can talk about my games without anyone ever knowing the truth :D
Bastian
 member, 46 posts
Thu 25 Mar 2021
at 00:32
Skin in the Game
I really like my players. One always takes notes, the other one takes care of initiative, the third is the life of the party, the fourth is a veteran and a great role player but then there is number five...
Great guy, likes to play... as long as everything is about his character and his story/quest. His character quirks are all anti social so he usually doesn't open his mouth or throws one liners into the room. We've played for over 8 months together and he still has troubles figuring out how to attack, how his characters work and what they can do, how often they can do it.
And then he also has his cellphone in his hand almost all the time.

We made a "No cellphones at the table" rule which seems to work till now.
We're playing a main campaign and a west marches style game (Another player DMs the main campaign) and I've already sat down with him, telling him to make more social characters, make someone that works with the group and not abandons the others at the beginning of the battle. (He wanted to switch characters)
I also sat down with him and showed him what dice to roll and how to add his proficiency to his attacks... we practice for 30 minutes, he does well, the next game he again has to check how to roll for his attacks.

And yes, he usually plays melee fighters.
praguepride
 member, 1777 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Thu 25 Mar 2021
at 03:07
Skin in the Game
Maybe he doesnt really want to play? Peer pressure has led to many an unenthusiastic player.
Zag24
 supporter, 682 posts
Thu 25 Mar 2021
at 14:17
Skin in the Game
In reply to Bastian (msg # 1792):

You've really bent over backwards, IMHO, to hold a private session with him to go over what to roll when.  When doing that, did you get the sense that he was trying to learn, or just tolerating you?  If the former, then it sounds as if he does want to play, but has a learning disability of some sort.

You might try a different way to identify dice, which could help.  That is, rather than telling him "use a d20 to attack," tell him "use the red die to attack," etc.  You'll have to put together a set of dice for him that stays consistent, but that is pretty easy.  If he has trouble recognizing between types of dice, then it would explain him succeeding during your private tutorial and then failing later -- he was recognizing dice according to some criteria that you didn't realize, and they've changed in a way that seems irrelevant to you but confuses him.
praguepride
 member, 1778 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Thu 25 Mar 2021
at 15:37
Skin in the Game
If he really does want to play perhaps a learning disability is on the table. Depending on what system perhaps cue cards or a cheat sheet would be helpful. Think of it like a boardgame where for new players you have the card that says

"If you want to do X, take steps A, B and C
If you want to do Y, take steps D, E, and F"

etc. etc.

It might be easy and intuitive for you and if it is d20 it might be that simple but some people have trouble with the remembering all the numbers in their head. Having a card that says

"Attack: Roll red die, add 5 to result.
Will Save: Roll red die, add 3 to result.
Fortitude Save: Roll red die, add 6 to result.
Reflex Save: roll red die, add 4 to result.

Might really help get him back in the game. Also some games have mobile apps that can help streamline and simplify your maths. For example some apps you plug in your stats and you can just click "Roll longsword" and it RNG's a number and automatically adds the bonuses.