Depends on what the definition of 'is' is.

Do you mean "Can they have an NPC that is listed as a Player in the Cast pages?"  Then "Yes".

Do you mean should they run an NPC as a "GM PC"... then we're getting into murkier philosophical/ethical waters.

Of course a GM may have, and play, a character that is no different than any other player character in the Cast. I do it all the time.

In reply to evileeyore (msg # 4):

If they're open about it, letting the whole game know that one of the PCs is a GM PC, then I can't imagine why it would be a problem.  It's only "murkier philosophical/ethical waters" if they try to hide it, I think.

yep, in my games the   main 'GM/PC/NPC ' helps  drive the game, but there is a lot of RP with it too... the   1000's of NPCs in the game are aslo, flushed out, as  not to be ignored..or...focused on.
 like writing a book, you never know  which NPCs   ( besides the  main ones)  will be important.

 In Play by Post, its important to be able to keep the game moving , ebcause  stalled games die.

If it's open, list them as NPCs.  If you're hiding it, for whatever reason*, then list them as PCs.



* And no, I don't mean to drag this into a "what is best in gaming" discussion.  I was clarifying that there are two facets to the OP's question.  If the OP wants to go there (or the thread drifts), ce la vie.  There are 'legitimate'† reasons to hide the NPC as a PC and there are not-so legitimate reasons.

† Quotes to designate I do not ever see a legitimate reason.  But that's not to say I feel others are morally wrong (to each their own game), rather I simply disagree.

In reply to Dream Sequence (msg # 6):

Why is it bad "if they try to hide it"?

Online roleplaying gives an opportunity that never existed in tabletop games - imagine a game where one PC is secretly played by the GM, and is actually working against the rest of the group.  A traitor in their midst, who will steal the artefact that they are on a mission to recover, or kill the person they are supposed to be protecting, or summon up the dark god whose rise they are trying to prevent...

At the table, the GM's friend can play that role... but all the secret note passing and furtive glances can give away the fact that the character is not to be trusted.

thanks

Honestly, I see more reasons to hide a GM PC than to out one.

Why? Because 9/10 of the people I have ever played with have a tendency to absolutely, 100% ignore anything labeled 'NPC'. It's like, to the players, those characters don't exist, don't matter, only give plot points, and are useless to interact with. If I'm in a game where it's imperative that PCs actually interact to get plot cues/information/push story, then I've found that those GM-run characters need to be hidden among the PCs... otherwise, they'll get ignored. Or, conversely, everything they say will be treated as more important because they said it (As in "well, this tidbit of information MUST matter, regardless of how trivial it is, because it came from an NPC, even though I would have ignored it from another PC!")

A hidden GMPC can push plot points in a far more subtle fashion, like BBR said, without things becoming hamfisted or stilted.

To me?  It implies you don't trust me as a Player.  And it's simply not something I'll do.  If I don't trust a Player, I eject them from the game.




Another aspect of it I don't like.  Unless I'm in a railroad game anyway, in which case... said N/PC isn't necessary.

After years of seeing players post interaction after interaction after interaction with a character and then suddenly stop doing anything with a character the moment they find out it's run by the GM/it winds up becoming an NPC for some reason? You're right, I don't trust players to treat NPCs like PCs, and I go out of my way to avoid outing GM-run PCs for precisely that reason. In all of my years on RPoL I can count the number of people I have encountered that treat NPCs and PCs with the same degree of care on one hand, and have fingers left over. Heck, most of the players I wind up playing with go so far as to act like abandoned characters that become NPCs cease to exist entirely, even when they were around and active two days ago.

I 100% don't trust players to treat PCs and NPCs the same, and if I need a character to be paid the same amount of attention to as a PC, it's going to have to be labeled as a PC. Too many people have taught me that having that 'N' in the tag results in things I don't want, otherwise. Blame the years of previous players that don't treat all characters equally, with or without the 'N', for my lack of trust...but better safe than sorry.
This message was last edited by the user at 19:32, Fri 27 Sept 2019.

Out of curiosity, how do games like this can possibly even work? Not criticizing or anything here, just trying to understand - interacting with a fictional world is the whole point of roleplaying, so ignoring the most actively interactive part of that fictional world (the fictional creature that live inside it) seems to me like it'd make playing completely pointless.

And most certainly, in any game I'd be running, not treating the NPCs as living creatures with their own agenda and emotion can very quickly lead to death - for PCs and NPCs alike, depending on the situation. I tend to have something like two-to-four NPCs just join the PCs when it makes sense for them to do so, too, and that's never been a problem.

So... just trying to understand how such a different playstyle could work.

In reply to Egleris (msg # 14):

The problem is that games like that don't work. That's why it's a good thing that hidden GMPCs are possible. =)

Seriously though, I'm with you and I don't get it... yet I've seen it happen over and over and over ad infinitum. Most players (that I've dealt with) just don't give the same treatment to NPCs. Either they think the NPC partymember is there to act as a sacrificial lamb to die in their stead "because they're just NPCs" so they treat them like some kind of combat buffer, or they think there's no reason to bother cultivating a good working relationship with them "because they're just NPCs" so they're rampant jerks, or they don't think there's any reason to bother posting back-and-forth with them at all "because they're just NPCs" so game interaction is stilted.

It's like the NPCs are some kind of disposable commodity, to them - useless for anything until they need them to save them. I've watched people suddenly decide to up and ignore a character that they were posting up a storm with out of the blue, just because the player of that character had to leave the game for some reason or another, and they won't bother continuing an IC interaction with the character once they know it's run by the GM "because they're just an NPC now". It's like the GM is somehow not capable/competent to actually play a character in their own game <insert eyerolling here> as far as some people are concerned.

one of my newer players  , gushed  about the reactions folks had   to  some MIA  NPCs   during  a battle.

 when the   actions  was  ended  and the NPCs   found, they happened to make it out alive....4 of the PCs  and   risked thier lives to try and 'get to them"

( yes..PCs  can die in my games, but you have to  be e either, very foolish, or very unlucky..or both!)

 Sometimes folks interact more with the NPCs  then they  do PCs, because they know they aren't  just 'extras'..they are   'reoccurring '  charcters, that can and will, influence the future  of the  game.

 If you can build a solid  NPC  base,  folks will enjoy the game, much  more.

thanks this thread really helped.

On a related note, I have introduced a new PC to a game, only to have the players treat him like dirt because they assumed he was an NPC filling in for the character of a player who had left.  No matter how often I (and the player) said "Nope, new PC.  Honest." the players weren't buying it.  The new player didn't stick around.  :(

I've seen players:

• ignore NPCs while they (the PCs that is) flirted endlessly with each other - mind you, the love birds also ignored other PCs
• automatically assume that they shouldn't trust NPC party members
• assume that NPCs will drop what they're doing to help them (while simultaneously ignoring the issue that the NPC was dealing with - "Hey NPC!  Can you sell me some arrows!"  "Yes, but first I have to put out the fire that's burning down my workshop!"  "I need twenty arrows, as quickly as possible."  "Will you help me with the fire?"  "Are my arrows ready yet?")

This message was last edited by the user at 20:46, Fri 27 Sept 2019.

::chuckles::  BigBadron...we had this  guy in my space  game, maybe?  a year?  I was goign to be the   'surperhero'.. but?  there are limits  what you can do, based on  the CS ect ect.

  anyway, the NPCs  are Milling  around, some are talking to each other.. most are interacting with One or more   PCs...

  I never say " you can't do that"..unless  they  can't  as a character.. so?  this  guy   starts  to   take over the Op...

 He doesn't listen to the NPCs... he doesn't   worry about... ' the thing   making noise overthere"... he  rushes  in through the door and  gets  attacked  by  a Big Beastie...One of the    NPCs  in the lead of the Op wired out on him, " didn't  you  hear what they said? "

 he  answered in the OOC thread, " I thought that was  just fluff!"

 to which I answered  in OOC ".. some fluff is fluff..some   fluff is important, some is  for  flavor, some  is  for the plot..its   for your character  to  choose  what is  what"

 90% of the players  I have had/have, love this... some   get angry because they thought they were set up... but its like a Movie or TV  show.. yo can't  jusy  focus on the  guy  in the middle of the screen!

This is when you set that PC on fire.


@Unavailable - yes, the GM is a player in the sense that they're more than just a facilitator, and if they need to put a GMPC in there to push the plot along sometimes, that's fine, so long as the GMPC isn't favoured over the others.

He will not be.

In reply to Unavailable (msg # 21):

Sounds like a healthy party, then. [thumbs up]

We haven't started yet but thanks.

Exactly.  Treat the NPCs like trash?  Expect them to take you out with the garbage.

Inversely, if the GM let's the PCs treat the world like it revolves around them, then they will quickly begin treating the game world, and everything in it, that way.





On this we agree.  The rest?  Not so much.  ;)





This is what happens when you develop a 'reputation' for GMPCing (even if unearned).  New PCs that can't be 100% verified won't be trusted to be actual Players.


This of course plays into one of my 'medium' dislikes about the site.  Not knowing who the other Players are (by their general board handle) without having to jump through some hoops.
This message was last edited by the user at 01:19, Sat 28 Sept 2019.

Honestly, I've never understood the fiery passion some people hold against GMPCs (unless it's an occasion where the GM is using the character to outdo everyone else in the game...every character should have a chance to excel at something, and I have seen GMPCs who were the best at everything, even if it didn't make any sense for them to be that good at whatever.)

I mean, the GM is there to have fun, just like the rest of us.  If they have a PC they want to run, why shouldn't they?  As long as the PC exists in the same realm of plausibility as the rest of the characters, it's just another character in the game, doesn't matter who's running it.  But, then again, I tend to steer away from GMs who play like they need to somehow 'beat' the players, whether that may be by running a character who outdoes them at every turn or if it's putting PCs in situations from which they have no way to escape or fight their way out (yes, I've seen both...I had a GM drop my brand-new character into a game with no introduction to any of the other characters, no connection to them, stranded him alone on a space ship and had the authorities capture him and charge him with mutiny--even though there is absolutely no plausible way he could have taken the ship by himself and his totally valid ID listed him as a preacher in a non-violent order--and summarily execute him, all in the same weekend.)  The GMs I play with are just telling a story, and the players are helping fill in the blanks and flesh out the tale.  If that story is told more effectively with the presence of a GMPC, great...more power to you.  I already treat all the NPCs as GMPCs anyway...

In my case it's less fiery passion and more this particular instance is pushing a number of buttons* at once, setting my post tone to "strongly against".


* The Buttons (in actual order of severity, greatest to least)

1 - If you don't trust me to uphold the social contract of the game, why am I in your game?

2 - The game is about the heroics of the PCs against/within the world.  We are not here to watch the DM's characters be mighty in our place (or to upstage us at a few key moments).  We have tv shows, books, and movies for that (or for you really old folks, like me, radio shows).

3 - I don't like railroads.  Any NPC whose job is to act as tour guide or strict navigator is actively working against my enjoyment of the game.


2a - Support NPCs are cool.  Emergency 'pull the PC's out of the fire' NPCs are cool, if used sparingly.  NPCs who are foils are cool.  And lastly, NPCs are who just along for the ride because the PCs like the NPC are cool (Inversely:  NPCs that the PCs are saddled with, and hate, but must keep in the group can also be cool).

2b - McGuffin NPCs are also okay.  Example:  Princess Nastypants has the magical power to heal the World Crystal, get her to the World Crystal deep in the heart of the Evil Emperor Wizard Elgrab's territory and she can heal it.  The PCs are not being 'upstaged' in the 'save the world' plot because without them, she could never get to the World Crystal, and likely the PCs will have to deal the Evil Wizard Elgrab and deal with her forces and all the evil hazards of the empire and Princess Nastypants will be useless outside of being used as glue to hold the World Crystal together.

3a - Having set goals and destinations are fine as long as "how we get there" is left to the PCs.  I'm perfectly happy agreeing to "There will be set pieces and plot moments and you agree to go there to deal with them and I'll alert you to them either subtly, at first, or with a clue-by-four to the head if necessary".



Some advice on GM/NPCs.  See... the GM has all the information in this war.  And information is key in war.  So they know that [ENEMY] type will feature heavily and can make a PC that is particularly well suited to fighting [ENEMY].  So while Smashy McGMPC is (on paper) no more potent that the other heros... every time the group faces [ENEMY] Smashy will '[be aggressively awesome]'.  And if [ENEMY] features heavily in the game, Smashy will be a constant superstar.  This is where well intentioned GMs who 'want to play' often go awry†.  The second, and worse manner in which they will go off a cliff into the rocks of "whoa there" is they will insert several different versions of Smashy.  So when Smashy can't rock out, Smushy will.  Or Swishy.  Or Casty McInsanelyOverpoweredFireballs.  Knowing the system (often better than the Players) and the terrain of the game means their GMPCs can always win every war.  And lastly, if the dice come up "Nope, your dead" on your favorite GMPC, let it happen.  Do not save them.  You'll be better for it in the long run.


† Yes, I, your esteemed author of this rant, lived in that house for awhile (I was young, and dumb, and full of [PROFANITY]).  Take my advice, move in there.


9 times out of 10 that is what a GMPC is for (IME).  Now, an NPC run by the GM, tucked into the party (as a support or foil)?  They tend to be okay, and yes, there is a difference both subtle and vast between NPC and GMPC.  And like porn, I know it when I see it (the first clue?  The GM calls the character a GMPC).


In this case... because of the system at work here, I can't tell the difference.  And yes, I am the type to be slightly more forgiving of PCs making stupid mistakes that cost my Character rewards than I am NPCs.  I will always favor adding a PC to a party over an NPC (even if my Character doesn't treat their Character well).  So if we're hitting my arbitrary "too many PCs limit", yes I'll eye any additions warily, unless I can identify them as PCs right off (even then I might eye them warily).

And of course there have been times I've preferenced an NPC over a PC, usually because the Player or the Character were insufferable [PROFANITY]s, and a role needed to be filled.  Or, I just really enjoyed that NPC for whatever reason and the PC was, as above, insufferable.
This message was last edited by a moderator, as it was against the forum rules, at 17:50, Sat 28 Sept 2019.

Fixed that for you.  You're welcome.

And, of course, asking them means that they can then decide for themselves whether or not they want to give you that information (as opposed to us deciding for them).

That fixed nothing and supplied no information I did not already have.

I have had fellow Players be extremely reticent (in other words simply not answer)  and one outright lie about who they were.  Why?  I have no idea.


Yup.  I disagree with this policy, but eh, can't do nothin about it.  Except in games I run.