Jarodemo
 member, 858 posts
 My hovercraft
 is full of eels
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 07:20
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
In reply to praguepride (msg # 17):

I had an odd one where a player told me he was leaving and departed quickly but on good terms, but when I went to check his char sheet he had deleted everything. Really annoying as we were in the middle of a fight! I had to recreate his PC and gear just so I could kill him!
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 316 posts
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 11:47
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
It's been a really long time since I left a game under unpleasant circumstances, but I delete character sheets and descriptions as well, when that happens. Deleting posts, that's just silly since the GM can just undelete them, but the character info bits that I wrote? Yeah...just because it's the GM's right to keep using those things doesn't mean I have to make it easy for them to do so. It also makes me feel like it helps make it more obvious to the rest of the game that the original player is no longer in control of the character when the description in particular changes drastically.

But that's pretty much a last resort for games parted from under really unpleasant circumstances. /shrug
ladysharlyne
 subscriber, 2768 posts
 You get out of a game the
 effort you put in it !!
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 12:26
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
That's a bit of a waste of your time when leaving.  Anyone leaving should at least tell that GM they are leaving in a friendly manner.  As it being a waste of time any GM can look at the rtj and copy the character info and create the character whether to kill them off or find a new player for a character depending on the character.

Bottomline is the RPol Rules stand!

Please anyone.... ALWAYS tell the GM you are leaving don't just disappear.  Some, many, GMs care about their players and all sorts of horrible thoughts can run through their head about what happened to that player in real life.  Most times when you express to a GM that you are leaving and don't want the character used they will probably kill them off or let them fade into the sunset.  Who knows in years to come you might change your mind and want to come back to that game.

On a side note there was a post from Currine that gave the rules for whose ownership was of a character as Ron said above and as all Admin will tell you but I could not find that section anymore.  Can someone give me a link to it or copy it here please?
praguepride
 member, 1672 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 13:02
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
SunRuanEr:
Yeah...just because it's the GM's right to keep using those things doesn't mean I have to make it easy for them to do so.


All you're doing is sabotaging a game that you are already leaving. Not the kind of attitude I would ever want in a player of mine.

edit: That reminds me of a player who deleted a character that I had created for them. That was really annoying as they nuked the character sheet I had filled out in the first place because it was a pre-gen character.

You're not making any kind of statement beyond deliberately making things difficult for the players/GM still in the game.

This message was last edited by the user at 13:04, Wed 26 Aug.

Sir Swindle
 member, 221 posts
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 13:09
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
Similar vein if you go out of your way to say that no one can use your house rules without the explicit written consent of major league baseball. I'm 100% going to save them and never use them, just because they are not that great and I don't want to not because you said I couldn't.

You would have to prove in court that no one else without your particular skill set could come up with your rules and that they are truly novel. This has happened exactly twice in history if you are really that good at game design then go make money rather than trying to sound self-important.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15919 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 13:25
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
In reply to ladysharlyne (msg # 20):

It's in the middle of this post: link to a message in another game

The other thing to remember is that you can't actually just disappear from a game without contacting the GM, unless you want it to keep popping up every time anybody posts  in it...  So two choices - ask the GM to remove you, or put up with the game letting you know that there's a new post.

While Moderators can remove you from a game, on request, we will always ask you to show us that you asked the GM first (and gave him at least a full week to remove you).
Sir Swindle
 member, 222 posts
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 13:29
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
bigbadron:
or put up with the game letting you know that there's a new post.

If only this was a problem I had...
ladysharlyne
 subscriber, 2769 posts
 You get out of a game the
 effort you put in it !!
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 13:30
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
Thanks Ron xx
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 317 posts
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 14:18
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
praguepride:
SunRuanEr:
Yeah...just because it's the GM's right to keep using those things doesn't mean I have to make it easy for them to do so.

You're not making any kind of statement beyond deliberately making things difficult for the players/GM still in the game.


As I said, and I feel it was lost, that was a last-ditch resort for parting under very adverse circumstances. The sort of thing that has happened approximately twice in well over a decade of games. Under those circumstances, I -want- to make it difficult for the GM, and I want to make it very clear to my previously fellow players that the character is no longer being run by me. THAT is the most important thing, where I stand. As a player, the GM controls everything in their game - we all agree on that, and there's no argument there from me - but what I've written for a character (specifically, the description and any images that might be up in said description) is MY stamp on the character. My artwork. My writing. The sheet and stuff? That's just numbers.

If I'm parting from a GM under bad circumstances (again, the sort of thing that I consider VERY rare, and on the extreme end of the spectrum), I'm not going to willingly leave that GM something that looks like I've written it, for them to potentially go and pretend to be me with for the other players (whom I've NOT parted badly from) so that they can potentially 'poison the well' by doing things that appear to be done by me that I wouldn't have done. I can't take the character with me (which is a policy I wholly agree with), so the only thing I CAN do is wipe the description and make it obvious to anyone that knew Original Character X well that New Character X is almost certainly under different management even if the GM isn't clear about it.

If you think that wiping a character description when you're no longer playing it is "sabotaging a game that you are already leaving" and "Not the kind of attitude I would ever want in a player of mine", I have to ask: why? It's a description. People change and alter those all the time. Is it really 'sabotage' to change a character's description from what it used to be? If so, I know a lot of players over the years that have sabotaged their games by changing their mind on what portraits they want to use in the middle of playing a character.

Is wiping a character sheet sabotage? If so, again, why? The character is now property of the GM, and as property of the GM, can have any skills/stats/whatever that the GM needs for them to have for whatever it is the GM wants to do with them. Heck, I know a lot of NPCs that don't even -have- sheets in games, precisely because the mindset is 'the NPC will be able to do what they need to be able to do'.

As a player, we don't have the right to take our characters and leave because those are the rules (and let's be fair, if the GM liked the character they could rebuild a version of it, even if we did), and deleting your posts I agree *IS* sabotaging the game by leaving holes in the narrative (not to mention dumb, because undelete is a thing) - but you're not going to convince me that there's something wrong or indicative of a bad attitude for not wanting to leave those bits of personal writing that we -can- take behind, if we don't want them being used by someone else that we are no longer on good terms with.

In an acrimonious divorce, you don't always get to take the house, but very few people would be fine with leaving all their personal goods behind for the other person to use if they didn't have to. It's the same sort of scenario, sometimes, with parting from a game.

This message was last edited by the user at 14:29, Wed 26 Aug.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15920 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 15:23
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
As a GM, or a player, I always keep a copy of character sheets and descriptions off-line, in case of some kind of catastrophic glitch in RPoL's database.

I suppose it would also come in handy if a player in one of my games decided to delete all of his character details.
Lauriebear
 member, 73 posts
 There is no truth. There
 is only perception
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 17:05
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
That is a great idea.

I keep an off line copy of my scratchpad per game I am in - in case of just such a thing and my own character sheets but for running a game it seems that would be very handy.
Shannara
 moderator, 3864 posts
 When in doubt,
 frolic!
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 21:21
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
IMHO, of course ...

Personally, when I leave a game, the character that I leave behind is no longer 'mine'.  It is simply a clone, in some alternate universe, a skin my character shed without loss to themselves.  My character is free to go off and have their adventures and what happened in said game/universe may or may not affect them as I choose.

I have one version of a character that became somebody different than I ever envisioned because of a blow up in a game, and I took that version of the bitter, heart-sore character that she had become and used her in another game - complete with the background of what happened to her in that game from her point of view.    That character is a pretty kick-booty character, and one that will go on to have even further adventures.

What the GM or other players choose to do with that alternate character I left behind, how they remember her, is no longer my concern.  If she was brutally killed, or went insane and slaughtered hundreds, or was put in prison or sold into slavery, or simply went left while they went right ... you know, I don't care.

Granted, it took me a while playing before I developed that mind set, but I wouldn't go back.

To do otherwise gives someone I don't care to play with anymore (if I left a game under bad circumstances) a lot more power over my mood than I want them to have.
Winter51
 member, 157 posts
Wed 26 Aug 2020
at 21:42
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
I always write the character out of the story unless the player grabbed an NPC from me. Having had Shannara in a couple of my games, I would not even begin to try to copy her style and make some pitiful downgraded version of one of her characters! I tend to think "my world, your character".

I like to mark everything proprietary and I'll explain: There was a guy that joined one of my games and didn't do much. I was puzzled as he was very eager to join. Another player told me after a week or two that he was directly copying what I wrote, just changing names, etc. and passing it off as his game.

Frankly, I think that you should either write your own material or provide a disclaimer that you only run modules or things written for you, let the player know what they are in for with your games. Just my two, clipped, bent, corroded coppers.
praguepride
 member, 1674 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 03:28
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
quote:
As a player, the GM controls everything in their game - we all agree on that, and there's no argument there from me - but what I've written for a character (specifically, the description and any images that might be up in said description) is MY stamp on the character. My artwork. My writing.


This is where you are wrong. Everything you write in a game is the GM's. They are the boss, you are the employee. If you quit your job, you don't get to go through the computers or inventory and rip out everything that you have done, even if it ends badly.

It's not a divorce because divorce implies equal partners and that is not how RPOL views the GM/Player divide. I know it might be harsh to realize but as Shannara put it, that character isn't "yours" the second you leave the game so going back and deleting anything to spite the GM is just that, sabotage. You aren't reclaiming anything because you don't own anything in a GM's game.

If you want people to know you're leaving drop an OOC or if you're afraid the GM might say something or edit your posts then you can always rmail the other players to let them know what happened.

Serious question though: I understand taking pride in what you wrote but honestly what does it matter? If you're out of the game what does it matter how any of that is going to be used? If you're leaving on such bad terms anyway...so what? Let them puppet your character however they want, you're done with them so why put in any effort to sabotage the game?
Heath
 member, 2945 posts
 If my opinion changes,
 The answer is still 42.
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 08:02
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
Going to the initial post, another suggestion is to ban the player from the game. That way, the player cannot access the game at all, from what I understand, even to check and see whether you have used their character or not.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15921 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 12:49
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
In reply to Heath (msg # 32):

Not quite correct.  If they log out of RPoL, they can still navigate to the game and view any public parts of it - ie: character descriptions, Group 0 and Public posts, Cast List, Game Intro.

Since they are not logged in, the system has no way to tell whether they are a banned player, or a potential new user poking around the site to see if they want to sign up.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 319 posts
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 13:35
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
praguepride:
Serious question though: I understand taking pride in what you wrote but honestly what does it matter? If you're out of the game what does it matter how any of that is going to be used? If you're leaving on such bad terms anyway...so what? Let them puppet your character however they want, you're done with them so why put in any effort to sabotage the game?

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not taking a character description is sabotage, prague. I understand you think it is, I don't, so let's leave that part of the argument behind.

What does it matter?

It matters because - and again I reiterate that we are talking about extreme cases here, not just 'I'm not having fun/clicking with this game so I'm going to leave it' - malicious people can and do pretend to be other people sometimes on RPoL. Sometimes it's not done maliciously, in the case of a player that left a game and the GM just keeps puppeting it along as if nothing happened...but if you are leaving a game under extremely bad circumstances, I think it is prudent to expect and prep against the possibility that a GM who has become an enemy might have the inclination to continue to make posts "as you" with your character, within the confines of the game, in an effort to drive the other players away from you - and a lot of us play with people that we know by RPoL username (or at least think we might), so that sort of thing can potentially follow a person if it happens. Especially if that person tries to get into a game later using the same character, which a lot of us do because we have characters that we love and love to play.

It's not about them using the character. It's not about them using the writing. This isn't about possession or a case of 'that's mine, you can't have it!' (although more on that below) It's about taking the only steps available to prevent someone from pretending to be you. Not your character. You. I realize, it's a minor step, and it's one that GMs that back things up (like BBR says he does, which is very smart) can prevent entirely - but it's still something, and often times the only thing, unless you want to go make a scene in the OOC by telling everyone you're leaving...and I personally feel that is far more destructive to the game since things like that tend to start arguments, but YMMV.

...as for ownership of items, and this is a legitimate question unrelated to the discussion: What about hosted images?

If a player has hosted up an image on their own hosting service, and placed that into a description, and is then removed from the game - does the GM have the right to continue using that image that is no longer hosted by them, or any other player in the game? Not taking the image and hosting it up somewhere else, obviously, but using the hosting service of the player that is no longer there. (I understand that people can remove the images from being hosted, but I'm asking specifically about the legality - I can lock my doors at night, but even if I don't, you can't just walk into my house and take stuff.)

Which cycles back around to this, I guess:
praguepride:
They are the boss, you are the employee. If you quit your job, you don't get to go through the computers or inventory and rip out everything that you have done, even if it ends badly.

You're right, which is why posts can't be deleted (or can, but GMs can undelete them), and character sheets can be locked by the GM. That's the work. Descriptions, those are the window dressing, the personal items on your desk, the photos of your family and your pencil holder - your boss doesn't get to keep those unless you leave them behind willingly.

This message was last edited by the user at 13:37, Thu 27 Aug.

MelJill
 member, 54 posts
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 15:25
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
I'm a bit confused here--on one hand the split between player and GM is so acrimonious that the player sees the GM as an "enemy" and on the other hand, communicating with the other players in the game (whether by OOC post, a mass PM or rmail) is "far more destructive to the game since things like that tend to start arguments" in the same game where the GM has become an "enemy"?

My personal experience--both as the GM who has done re-casting of a character and as a player who has stepped into the shoes of a character I didn't create (and wasn't a pre-gen)--has been that there has always been complete openness about the fact that a re-casting took place, and that things like a change in writing style would make it pretty obvious that the PC is now an NPC even if the tag isn't changed.

In the games I run, whether the PC gets killed off, moves off "into the sunset", becomes an NPC, or is recast all depends on the particulars of the scenario for the rest of the players, and not so much how things went with the player who departed the game.  But then I only had one "rage quit" (on another site where the player could actually delete the character from the cast list to remove himself from the game) ... and since his PC was in a room away from the others it was pretty trivial to kill the character off and continue on.

As far as hosted pictures in a description--well, I have never used them, and I don't encourage them in the games I run.  I would guess that I'd consider that to be sort of the equivalent of the personal mug at the office (from prior analogies up-thread), and that should be taken.  But I don't really consider those pictures to be part of the description, to be honest, and if someone included them in a character description in my game and then left, I probably wouldn't delete them but it would be up to the new player (if there is a re-cast) to make the changes.  I have had, over the course of time that I've run games, two blind players who use screen readers and can read a text description of the character, so that text description is what I see as being the true character description.  So I suppose I would recommend that someone who used hosted images in a character description do something like remove from the hosting site or change the file name (of the hosted image), rather like taking that personal mug and cubicle decor upon leaving a job.
Shannara
 moderator, 3866 posts
 When in doubt,
 frolic!
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 15:42
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
SunRuanEr:
...as for ownership of items, and this is a legitimate question unrelated to the discussion: What about hosted images?

If a player has hosted up an image on their own hosting service, and placed that into a description, and is then removed from the game - does the GM have the right to continue using that image that is no longer hosted by them, or any other player in the game? il holder - your boss doesn't get to keep those unless you leave them behind willingly.


That is a danger of using your own hosted pictures, yes, but you still have the ability to remove those pictures other than demanding the GM take it down, using the tools of your hosting.

Yes, you have to expend the effort, and it may inconvenience you to rename the pic or change the path, but you have the ability to 'take back' your hosted image and disallow the use of your bandwidth in ways that does not effect the GM.

What you do not have on RPoL is the ability to force the GM to allow you to edit your posts after the fact, or the ability to force the GM to expend their effort to do something you can do yourself.

If it is a picture that you do not want anyone else to use under any circumstances, then I would advise that you not post it on RPoL, because we all know that pictures can spread like wildfire once posted anywhere on the internet.

This message was last edited by the user at 15:43, Thu 27 Aug.

SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 321 posts
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 16:02
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
Oh, I know Shannara, and that's totally fair to expect image hosters to handle the issue themselves.

I was just curious if there was an official stance on it because the topic made me think of it. (Edit for clarity: because it seems like it would run afoul of what I understand to be also policy that users on RPoL only link to images they themselves are hosting.)

Meljill:
I'm a bit confused here--on one hand the split between player and GM is so acrimonious that the player sees the GM as an "enemy" and on the other hand, communicating with the other players in the game (whether by OOC post, a mass PM or rmail) is "far more destructive to the game since things like that tend to start arguments" in the same game where the GM has become an "enemy"?

Because there's an aspect of keeping your conflict with the GM between you and the GM, and not involving the other players, that I think is both responsible and expected of mature individuals. That doesn't mean not taking precautions in case other people don't behave in that same mature fashion.

I feel that the 'protected' things in the game are the posts, and that's why GMs have the ability to undelete them if I player tries a slash-and-burn approach upon exit. GMs have the ability to make character sheets protected information as well, by locking them. That there's no means for the GM to restore or lock a character's description says to me that it isn't 'protected' information within the game. (If everyone thinks it should be, then perhaps descriptions should get a 'lock' option as well?) Obviously, my opinion with regards to descriptions is in the minority here and none of us are doing much besides going in circles, so I'm just going to bow out of this conversation now so we can keep from getting dizzy. Respect to everybody, even if we don't agree. <3

This message was last edited by the user at 17:17, Thu 27 Aug.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15923 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 16:11
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 37):

The official stance, as previously mentioned, is that everything posted in a game is a part of that game.  GMs are not compelled to remove any of it on demand.
Eur512
 member, 819 posts
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 17:41
Re: Question over a serious rMail received

Good lord, I wish I worked in a law office and got a call about how to file a lawsuit over a "stolen" character.  Oh, the fun I would have.


"We might have a case here.  But I need you to answer some questions.  What level was your character?"

"Huh?  What?  Why is that important?"

"It's something we need to know."

"Uh... 18th level!"

"Oh, that's a problem."

"What?"

"Well, you see, when they calculate recoverable damages, the court will always factor in future gaming potential.  Obviously, a low level character has a lot more future playability remaining.  I mean, still has all those level ups available.  Hours of adventuring fun.  On the other hand, your high level characters, lets face it, most of the most enjoyable hours are behind them.  Remember, we have to show injury."

"But.. umm... we started high level.  It was a high level character."

"Wait.. so you didn't play this character from first level?"

"Of course not."

"Whoa... I really don't think we can touch this case, then.  In fact, we can't have this conversation, or I would have to report this."
donsr
 member, 2029 posts
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 18:01
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
  I'm sure that the GM and Player had  issues  somewhere along the line, its just something that is laughable out in the open, But cause  LBear some understandable worry.

 Ban the player  from any games you run...ignore the Rmails, unless it approaches  'harassment' levels..then report  it to Admins.

 folks who leave on bad terms ( and over the  course of 9 + years we have had  some)..thier characters  will  die, to meet ends that will help the story line along.

people who leave on good terms, i will  have the 'sent away", on the outside  chance they wish to return ( which...this year.. we had  3 players do, because of RL)

Bottom line? no one is getting paid to run games or play in them. No one here is  paying to play..you don't like stuff  walk away!...a player   is taking the fun out of your ( and maybe other players)  experiance? Cut them.
Shannara
 moderator, 3867 posts
 When in doubt,
 frolic!
Thu 27 Aug 2020
at 18:26
Re: Question over a serious rMail received
Also, if someone is rmailing you and not allowing you to end the conversation, feel free to use the block/report feature.

That will remove the other person's ability to keep rmailing -- The moderators will see the action, but it's likely not going to result in any other action toward that person.

However, don't do this unless you are 100% done with playing with the other person.  If you block someone and later decide 'oh, I'm not mad anymore and I'd like to talk to them', you'll need to have a way off rpol as the 'block' is final for rmail.
Jordan Task
 member, 5032 posts
 All glory to the
 Hypnotoad!
Fri 28 Aug 2020
at 00:49
Question over a serious rMail received
In reply to Lauriebear (msg # 1):

Itís not theft of intellectual property at all.

First of all, itís highly unlikely that this person has registered a copyright for their RPOL characters, which means that even if they *could* sue you for some copyright violation, itís unlikely that they would get enough money out of it to even pay their lawyer. Also, to even *recover* damages in the first place they would need to prove that youíve damaged them in some way.

Secondly, there is a principle called ďfair useĒ that allows a particular piece of IP to be used for the creation of criticism, or derivative works as long as you donít try to profit from it.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/o...se/what-is-fair-use/

Thirdly, any judge, upon hearing the nature of the circumstances under which the IP is being used will probably take the position that this person surrendered their copyright as soon as they started posting it into a collaborative writing effort, particularly one that is expressly not for profit.