Draegnoth
 member, 4 posts
 Been playing for 25 years
 Can fill any role
Sun 22 Nov 2020
at 01:13
Vow of Poverty fix
What is everyone's thoughts on Vow of Poverty. The numbers still heavily favor not taking it and using gear instead but it can be useful for Monks. Only the fixed version on the GITP forums. The feat as written in The Book of Exalted Deeds is not worth using.
phoenix9lives
 member, 1046 posts
 GENE POLICE!  YOU!
 GET OUTTA THE POOL!
Sun 22 Nov 2020
at 04:34
Vow of Poverty fix
It can be useful for Sorcerors and wizards, too.
Draegnoth
 member, 5 posts
 Been playing for 25 years
 Can fill any role
Sun 22 Nov 2020
at 05:02
Vow of Poverty fix
In reply to phoenix9lives (msg # 2):

Sorcerer more than Wizard but thats true. It's an interesting way to go with a character.
Korentin_Black
 member, 566 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Sun 22 Nov 2020
at 07:19
Vow of Poverty fix

 It's more than a little wiggy on a Druid too... Last time I took it was for an angry paladin with a vicious and much-put upon Mule 'mount' though. ^_^
phoenix9lives
 member, 1047 posts
 GENE POLICE!  YOU!
 GET OUTTA THE POOL!
Sun 22 Nov 2020
at 08:27
Vow of Poverty fix
Add ot to a monk, and you kind of double up on powers.  You give them the hand-to-hand abilities of a Way of the Open Hand monk, even if they follow another Way.
Brianna
 member, 2226 posts
Mon 23 Nov 2020
at 09:58
Vow of Poverty fix
I remember playing with someone who had a Monk character with VoP.  I don't know what it would be like at low levels, but we had a few, and he was awesome!
NowhereMan
 member, 395 posts
Mon 23 Nov 2020
at 17:14
Vow of Poverty fix
We had one, too. His name was J, as he'd donated the rest of the letters to charity. He was a horribly greedy creature, squeezing every last red cent out of our patrons so he could donate the proceeds to his various charities.
OceanLake
 supporter, 1144 posts
Tue 24 Nov 2020
at 00:49
Vow of Poverty fix
I'm guessing that if magic items are few and far between, vow of poverty min-maxes.
Draegnoth
 member, 11 posts
 Been playing for 25 years
 Can fill any role
Tue 24 Nov 2020
at 01:26
Vow of Poverty fix
I suppose it could but I rarely see low magic campaigns.
phoenix9lives
 member, 1048 posts
 GENE POLICE!  YOU!
 GET OUTTA THE POOL!
Tue 24 Nov 2020
at 01:33
Vow of Poverty fix
Now, I have a sorceror and a monk I want to try out in a game.....
ricosuave
 member, 153 posts
 joined 6/27/2002
Sun 29 Nov 2020
at 22:16
Vow of Poverty fix
Its only worth it for  2 or 3 classes and ONLY during the lowest of levels. Starting at level 4 or 5 and from then on, it starts becoming more and more of a hindrance and burden for whoever took it.


While the character gets big numbers from the feat, having a 40+ in a stat does not make up for the fact that there are a few dozen things you go up against and having no defense at all to ward oneself for/from.
truemane
 member, 2148 posts
 Firing magic missles at
 the darkness!
Thu 3 Dec 2020
at 14:41
Vow of Poverty fix
People have crunched the numbers and, even as a straight up trade (no items for these bonuses) it's not optimal compared to standard wealth by level. But it's not a straight-up trade, it costs two Feats. Which puts it, I think, quite firmly in the realm of suboptimal (not being able to fly at higher levels can be particularly limiting).

Of course, so-called "White Room" game theory can't take into account the specifics of a given campaign (most notably, in this case, the degree of choice you have over magic items over time). So its real value at a given table can fluctuate.

Mostly, it's flavourful and thematic. Some of the Exalted Feats can be interesting, even if they're mostly not super great.

But purely as a mechanical trade-off? It's not worth it.
praguepride
 member, 1732 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Thu 3 Dec 2020
at 19:01
Vow of Poverty fix
Some of these things I look at and wonder if there is even a point in "fixing" them. A vow of poverty is supposed to be a hindrance. All the vows are supposed to be very large commitments by both player and character to represent faith in a higher cause through sacrifice. If it was an even trade or even advantageous to certain build then it is hardly a sacrifice to show devotion to one's god, is it? It's a purely pragmatic exchange of once avenue of power for another which goes against the spirit of the vows, in my opinion.

You should take a vow because your character truly believes in it, not for crude mechanical bonuses or perks.
Sir Swindle
 member, 271 posts
Thu 3 Dec 2020
at 19:35
Vow of Poverty fix
You are spending a feat on it it should be at least as worth while as Dodge.
RosstoFalstaff
 member, 200 posts
Thu 3 Dec 2020
at 19:36
Vow of Poverty fix
If the vow is supposed to be universally worse, it shouldn't be a feat, it should be a roleplaying choice.
Korentin_Black
 member, 567 posts
 I remember when all
 this was just fields...
Fri 4 Dec 2020
at 02:39
Vow of Poverty fix
In reply to praguepride (msg # 13):

 +1
praguepride
 member, 1733 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Fri 4 Dec 2020
at 19:56
Vow of Poverty fix
All feats are not created equal. There are probably a hundred feats not as good as Dodge.

Diligent gives you +2 on decipher script and appraise. Wheeee.

Dual Strike is terrible.

Spell Focus (Diviniation)...lol

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bolas....lol

Monkey Grip is broken in all the wrong ways. I actually had a roommate who was new to D&D and built a monkey grip two-weapon fighter thinking it would be awesome. All it did was set the record for least damage per encounter in the entire group over and over again. Guy couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and even then did poor damage.

Anyway as I said, it is supposed to be a sacrifice so giving up a feat slot is part of that. There is absolutely no requirement that every feat possible be beneficial or useful for your character.
Draegnoth
 member, 20 posts
 Been playing for 25 years
 Can fill any role
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 07:48
Vow of Poverty fix
The fixed version allows much more versatility and it is a role playing choice. The bonus feats it gives you are not restricted to exalted feats and it doesn't require Sacred Vow so it only costs one feat.

People whone and complain about that but it almost balances the disparity between players who take it and those who don't and use items. Not totally but it comes pretty darn close.

Its hard to drill that into the heads of rules lawyers or arrogant GMs who get very..... militant about change. Even if that change is good.
praguepride
 member, 1734 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Sat 5 Dec 2020
at 16:23
Vow of Poverty fix
My issue is runaway changes. I cannot count how many GMs who I have talked to complaining about how X is broken or Y is overpowered and then you find out they arent playing by the rules.

The classic example is Monopoly. A real game of monopoly, with auctions and no free parking money, actually goes by pretty fast but when you start changing rules willy nilly of course the game gets unbalanced.

Leadership is another classic example where i have seen a bunch of GMs ban it for being too powerful but then it turns out they are misusing almost every part of it.

Overall I dont really care, you can play however you want. What does put a bee in my bonnet is when people dont even understand the rules first before trying to change them and then complain that they arent working right.
truemane
 member, 2149 posts
 Firing magic missles at
 the darkness!
Wed 9 Dec 2020
at 14:19
Re: Vow of Poverty fix
praguepride:
Some of these things I look at and wonder if there is even a point in "fixing" them. A vow of poverty is supposed to be a hindrance.

[...]

You should take a vow because your character truly believes in it, not for crude mechanical bonuses or perks.

It's supposed to be a role-playing hindrance. But the mechanical system that surrounds your role-playing choices has a number of assumptions built into it. And one of those is that you need X gp worth of magic items power Y amount of time for the math to work out.

And if a party has three PC's with appropriate WBL and one with no gear at all? Even if the player is into not meaningfully contributing to combat (that's fun for some people, sometimes), encounters that challenge the rest of the party will be out-and-out lethal to that one character. Which probably isn't going to be fun.

Some people don't like that the game works that way, which is cool, but denying that's the way it does work causes more problems.

praguepride:
Overall I dont really care, you can play however you want. What does put a bee in my bonnet is when people dont even understand the rules first before trying to change them and then complain that they arent working right.

My favourite version of this is people who want to play a Low Powered (or "Balanced") game of DnD 3.5 so they restrict it to Core Only. Which betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of where the problems they're trying to avoid are coming from.

This message was last edited by the user at 14:26, Wed 09 Dec 2020.

praguepride
 member, 1735 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Wed 9 Dec 2020
at 22:23
Re: Vow of Poverty fix
quote:
It's supposed to be a role-playing hindrance.


I disagree. I think people want to put a hard fence between role-playing and mechanics that I don't believe is intended to be there in 3.X. In 4E there was absolutely a hard line between mechanics and flavor but this is definitely a matter of personal opinion.

quote:
My favourite version of this is people who want to play a Low Powered (or "Balanced") game of DnD 3.5 so they restrict it to Core Only. Which betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of where the problems they're trying to avoid are coming from.


:D

Absolutely. I rarely play with 3rd party published material but if I ever ran a 3.5 game I would have an absolute frankenstein's monster of rules stitched together to make the game playable.

This message was last edited by the user at 22:23, Wed 09 Dec 2020.