Shannara
 moderator, 3876 posts
 When in doubt,
 frolic!
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 01:32
Over reaction?
I always thought these particular cursed items were ... juvenile.

I will admit that I react very negatively to things that fundamentally change the character that I signed on to play.

While I wouldn't stop being someone's friend over it, unless there was a way to reverse the happening, I'd likely have that character leave to go searching for a cure.

At best, it seems like a silly way to disrupt a game for a giggle to me.

This message was last edited by the user at 01:33, Fri 15 Jan.

jdtucker
 member, 56 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 01:37
Over reaction?
When I was younger and my characters were based on facets of my real life I would have freaked out by a belt of femininity / masculinity.  AD&D before 3rd edition had stat limits much lower for physical stats but I was a poorly liked teenager with few friends.  I would have thought it an assault on my identity - it wasn't like I was getting any attention from any of the girls.

Fortunately I'm much older and more mature now.
facemaker329
 member, 7299 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 01:54
Over reaction?
It's intriguing, the kind of double-standard we have regarding an individual's sexual identity.  I remember in college (twenty some-odd years ago), while playing on a MUD, making a comment and having someone respond, "That's awfully het of you...", but I'm pretty sure if it had been a female making the comment, or if the comment had been made about another male, there would have been no similar response.

Some people are deeply disturbed by the prospect of playing a character that doesn't match their gender.  We encourage people to respect the identity of homosexual or transgender individuals.  In the same way we respect that, maybe we should have some consideration for people who are uncomfortable with the prospect of any kind of gender-fluidity in themselves.

Yeah, I think it was an over-reaction.  But I don't know the individual in question.  There could be background circumstances that make that happening some kind of perfectly valid trigger...maybe he spent years becoming male and having a female identity thrust back on him was just one too many spoons to deal with.  Maybe he's got a personality disorder that makes it difficult or impossible for him to treat that happening to his character as something less than a personal attack.  Maybe he'd just had a really cruddy day and that was the last straw.

Yeah, most of us would probably treat it as no big deal.  A lot of us would probably laugh about it and either throw ourselves into playing the new twist or make removing the cursed item a major focus of the character.  But as Shannara pointed out, not everyone would respond that way.  I probably wouldn't quit a game over something like that...but I certainly wouldn't appreciate it.

And it would definitely make me question whether or not I wanted to play with that particular GM.  If it wasn't the only incident that had sparked my ire, it could very well be enough for me to say, "Okay...I was on the fence but this made up my mind...this game isn't for me."
Piestar
 member, 787 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:19
Over reaction?
In reply to Shannara (msg # 7):

I am trying to get more information from the GM about the circumstances, the tale is so scant I wonder if there isn't more going on.

Back in the day I used random charts a lot for treasure, so such a thing might have popped up by accident. Still, a character showing that  much pset about it would probably make me ret-con it.

That said, in my games most people would simply use it as cause to generate a quest.
Piestar
 member, 788 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:21
Over reaction?
In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 9):

You make some valid points, especially the transgender perspective. I would never put any of my trans friends in to the position I don't think.

My real reason for posting was to try and garner perspective, and I think your post offers that. Would be nice to actually hear from someone who would be upset by it, but that isn't always possible.
Piestar
 member, 789 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:22
Over reaction?
In reply to jdtucker (msg # 8):

That makes sense. I have played in a few RPG's where my character was based on myself. I don't think it would have bothered me anyway, but I can see how that might be more of a problem for some.
CaptainHellrazor
 member, 95 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:27
Over reaction?
I have encountered several players on RPoL that have reacted abnormally to several different situations, almost all of them seemed to ignore that fact that they were playing GAME and not just a board game but a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

In my experience, every game improved after those players left or were removed.  If a player cannot or will not adapt to your playing group then you are probably better off without them.  This is not about your intolerance or your groups' intolerance, this is about the insecurity or intolerance of the offended player.  Being offended is a choice they made, now you have a choice to make.  For me it was very easy but not everyone reacts the same way, I can only relate my own experience but intolerance, hate and abuse are not acceptable in my games.
donsr
 member, 2157 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:31
Over reaction?
 Lets look at this, from a 'hobby' POV?... I know, My own characters,  I would be very upset if a GM/DM  switched thier genders...Insulted...and yes?  mad.

 You put alot into your characters, heavy RP games have the back stories, and all the moments in the game,  of those characters. Male or female.. growing through the game.

 Now?..if you have a 'one off' game..or  just  run modules?. it shouldn't matter. But think of it?... why is there even that kind of  Magic item? Is it  supposed to be  funny? A player that puts  all that work into thier charcter  and  suddenly they have to change genders?

 is it  supposed to punish the player and character?  As  a GM/DM i wouldn't have this kind of item in my game? but my games  are  campaigns with the whole thing based  on RP. I would never say.." Just Kidding, you're a girl now"

 if  its  just a 'mess around'... 'we're here  for a week  or two game"..it shouldn't matter. But when you  have something that changes  the  artistic creation of  someone's character?... well.. this is the other side you're asking about
Piestar
 member, 790 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:37
Over reaction?
In reply to donsr (msg # 14):

Yes it is, nice to hear from someone who really feels that way. Are there other things that would upset you as much, or perhaps more? What if the GM changed your race (like with the reincarnation spell) or even more bizarrely, your class? (Can't think of an example of that happening, to be honest.)

I guess the question I am asking is does gender hold some special place, or is it anything you would consider a major change?

Just to put my mindset in play here, I really would not care if my gender were changed. I say that just for context...
donsr
 member, 2158 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:43
Over reaction?
 think about  what it is when you   create a character  in a game, that is   goign to   be a Long RP game...  the first three things on everyone's  omind  is  Race, Class  and gender..and..it depends  on what they have in mind, which one  will be first?

 I had a  character  brought back and was a kobold?.. didn't like it one  bit..but.. the gender was the same?....

 Gender..whether it's  PC or not?  is important... in my most active  game, I have a  great woman who plays   a Male   Xeno-Bio-tech...she's great!... I have a  Guy who plays a Lady Fighter  pilot... another Guy plays a Lady med tech, and  a lady trooper..

 it  doesn't matter what the player's  Gender is... it matters what they put out there..what they are building...

 again?..if its  just a 'clown around game' or an off the shelf Module, it shouldn't matter..but in heavy RP games, where you're builing..it will matter a whle lot1
Winter51
 member, 169 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:46
Over reaction?
In reply to Piestar (msg # 15):

I can see where that can be a fun roleplay opportunity, the change of race or gender and have seen some people really have fun with it. Personally, I would not put an item like that out unless I was nearly 100% sure the player would either find it a challenge or be amused by it. I have a couple of current players I would never dream of trying something like this with because of the inevitable meltdown it would cause.

Back in the early editions of DnD, I thought that it was intended to be good fun and never suspected anything else. I suppose I can see both sides of the argument and one really has to use some discretion and common sense but on the other hand, if one would terminate a friendship over a game, one probably has bigger issues than a little roleplaying dysfunction.

And donsr is right, a lot of work goes into a character, a player should have a say.
RanzarthPhx
 member, 44 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 02:53
Re: Over reaction?
Piestar:
In reply to RanzarthPhx (msg # 4):

I am specifically asking for people who would share that person's reaction. You're in the same camp as me...


I guess what I was trying to say, while we are both in the same boat. Whether this was an overreaction or not really came down to what conversations were had prior. Things like gender change can be a big issue currently, some people may have no issues, others may for various reasons.

Thinking about this further, this ultimately falls on the DM though either because they didn't have the conversation prior or did not make quick corrective steps once it happened and the reaction occurred. Whether it's an overreaction eventually doesn't matter.
Piestar
 member, 791 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 03:10
Over reaction?
In reply to Winter51 (msg # 17):

Sadly I think for a lot of people it is such a non-issue they wouldn't think to ask. The whole point of the game is the things that happen to your character, and someone else has a lot to say about that. I never consider any character 'mine' to the degree where I would get that upset about it.

I think the key, of course, is to react as quickly as you see the player is upset, but I know some GM's who are so married to the idea of the rules they would struggle with showing that level of flexibility.
Piestar
 member, 792 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 03:11
Re: Over reaction?
In reply to RanzarthPhx (msg # 18):

Oh absolutely, I am not looking for the right or wrong of the situation though. I am trying to understand the mindset of someone that attached to their character. For me it is about trying to see the perspective of people that are different from me.
CaptainHellrazor
 member, 96 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 03:21
Re: Over reaction?
The DM is running the game and puts in way more time and effort into a game than players do.  Players can choose to play the DM's game or not play it but as a DM I would not allow a player to dictate terms.  Bottom line, without the DM there is no game, just like in sport, without a referee there is no match.

If a player cannot accept the decision of the DM then they should not be playing the game.  Where is the fun in playing a game if the player always gets what they want?  There are worse things to happen to a character than a sex change.  If a player can enjoy a game where there is the possibility of getting killed then it borders on hypocrisy to complain about anything less than death!  As I said in my previous post, it's a game.  If you don't enjoy it then don't play and don't ruin the game for everyone else.  Further more, it's a role playing game, embrace the role.

In the first versions of RPG's you had to roll dice to get ability scores and there were minimum requirements to be able to play specific kinds of characters.  Pandering to players and letting them create any kind of character they want seems to defeat the purpose of playing the game if there are no actual challenges.  Let your players have whatever they want whenever they want it and see how long the game lasts when they get bored because there are no more challenges.
facemaker329
 member, 7300 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 03:26
Re: Over reaction?
Piestar:
...or even more bizarrely, your class?


I had that happen to my character in a Star Wars game.  But it was an alternate timeline version of the game, and EVERYONE's characters got switched up.  It was also a face-to-face game that we'd been playing for years (my character had been used for most of a decade, retired, then pulled off the shelf again at the GMs request because of a one-off for a friend coming back into town, and we all realized we missed him (the character) so I kept playing him for a few more years...), so we all knew each other very well and the GM didn't put anyone in a situation that they found uncomfortable or offensive.

Personally, I found it very intriguing, because it gave me a chance to see how similar the character could be to the original while being almost antithetical to the original (the original character was a bounty hunter who was basically a Force-denier and thought everyone claiming to believe in the Force or the Jedi was delusional...the alternate version was a Jedi Master who'd been trained by Anakin Skywalker--who, in the alternate timeline, had never turned to the Dark Side.)

As a further wrinkle, after the time-space...whatever...that bounced us all into that alternate reality, he had each of us roll to see if we remembered our original selves.  It became a series of changes...and through them all, mine was the only character who had absolutely no recollection of his original self...)

All that said...I can see where something like that could be upsetting to a player.  If it had been a different GM...if we hadn't played for so many years and known each other so well...if someone had been singled out for it while everyone else was left in their original character...I could see people being upset by it, because those weren't the characters they created to play.  The GM starts changing defining traits of a character like that, and suddenly it stops being the character you wanted to play, and becomes a character the GM wants you to play, and that's not always the same thing.  And if you don't know the GM REALLY well, it's hard to trust that there's going to be a payoff for becoming the guinea pig.
Piestar
 member, 793 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 03:32
Re: Over reaction?
In reply to CaptainHellrazor (msg # 21):

I've read similar comments to yours many times, but again, not what I am looking for here. Way off point. I am trying to understand why this would be a deal breaker for a player.

That said, as a DM myself, I don't see a reason not to be sensitive to real life issues. If I had a player whose mother was dying of cancer, I wouldn't have cancer strike their loved on in my game. If a player was a rape victim, I wouldn't have their character undergo any even remotely similar. As a DM, I not only control the world and the characters circumstance, I control my own actions and my own game.

I can only assume this was traumatic for the player, and I am not going to berate a person for that.
Piestar
 member, 794 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 03:35
Re: Over reaction?
In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 22):

That sounds like a fun game, and an interesting experiment in role-playing. It sounds like the change was consensual though, which I think might be part of the issue here.

I have known players very devoted to their character, some to a degree I could never grasp. My first DM could be rather brutal, and she killed a LOT of my characters. When I became a DM she opted to play in my world with her favorite character, and when he died, she literally never forgave me.

That said, your chance to play the same character as such a diametrically opposed class, while trying to remain the same person, sounds very cool.
OceanLake
 supporter, 1149 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 04:34
Re: Over reaction?
In a game, my character had her/his sex changed. That precluded what might have been an interesting bit of role playing later. However, as with Tiresias, maybe the sex will get changed back.
soulsight
 member, 316 posts
 Reality is 10% perception
 and 90% interpretation.
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 04:40
Re: Over reaction?
Can't say that I've ever seen the 'gender reversal' plot become a deal-breaker for anyone, but I did play with someone that quit after some magic McGuffin shuffled identities and the DM required us to accept a random species change. The player in question refused to be a human, and quit the game soon thereafter.
It's possible the reaction wasn't so much about what gender was what so much as it was about the character built within the player's brain would have required a drastic change and the player was unwilling to make the effort.
Piestar
 member, 795 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 05:01
Re: Over reaction?
In reply to soulsight (msg # 26):

I would like to hear that persons side of things. Obviously you shouldn't play in a game you don't enjoy, just curious about the mind set that makes things like that a deal breaker. Certainly it is legit, everyone has a right to their own deal breakers. Me, I dislike GM's who ignore my character, but it is deal breaker when they get upset about me pointing it out and asking they address my question or action.
Bastian
 member, 45 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 06:35
Re: Over reaction?
Personally I think that the player over reacted and that the gender switching magic item was the last straw that broke the Tauntaun's back.

The player had probably some other issues at home/work/wherever and perhaps had only the game as a "constant". While D&D can help people with many things, it's not meant to be a tool to solve one's psychological or emotional issues.

If a friend and player would pull one like that on me, I'd worry what else is going on in my friend's life.

PS: I would encourage people to put in a gender switching belt or whatever but there should always be the option to remove it/break the curse.
Starchaser
 member, 816 posts
 Shoda mo tsumoreba taibok
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 07:36
Re: Over reaction?
Late in the game here but I'd be extremely offended by this and leave the site...

...only joking!

But seriously, maybe you should talk to them? As has been pointed out there may be underlying reasons why they reacted that way that you are unaware of. Past trauma's gender reassignment issues, anything really.

I used to get so upset by extreme reactions from people on here over stuff but I'm coming to realize that a lot of people have hidden issues and triggers for their behavior that make them react in extreme ways at times. The trick is to understand that and not take it personally.
Piestar
 member, 796 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 07:39
Re: Over reaction?
Honestly if I knew the people involved I would, but it was very third-person. I just brought my question here because we are all role-players here, or at least so I am assuming.
Brianna
 member, 2232 posts
Fri 15 Jan 2021
at 07:49
Re: Over reaction?
I remember a player years ago in Living City whose character had had a gender change.  IIRC the party was told the change was temporary for the purpose of whatever their mission was, and they found out too late it was permanent.  One did not give up an LC character they'd had for any length of time, they had invested time, money, travel, etc to build to where they were.  I always thought that was mean on the part of the one who wrote the module; after all this wasn't for people they knew, but would be run for strangers at conventions across North America, possibly even the world.  The player hated it, but worked around it by having the character dress in androgynous loose clothing, but of course that didn't always work in the close quarters of an adventuring party.  I've never minded playing cross gender (I especially remember one game where we realised the three men and three women were also playing three males and three females, but with everyone playing opposite!) but I can imagine being upset about such a fundamental change in a beloved character.