praguepride
 member, 1791 posts
 "Hugs for the Hugs God!"
 - Warhammer Fluffy-K
Sat 10 Apr 2021
at 19:39
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
The short answer is no. It is rare for anything to be fully killed off. Ham radio is still used by enthusiast. Some of the old MUDs I played 20 years ago are still up and running. People still listen to vinyl and watch movies on VCRs.

On a personal note I was looking at running a Necromunda game. I looked at the VTT options but they just weren't what I was looking for and don't have the control I desire so I will probably be looking at running it on RPOL because the technology just isn't where I want it to be yet. Yes tabletop simulator is amazing but I LIKE writing and having an easy place to do bookkeeping.

Even if I were to use a VTT for running the battles the bulk of the game would still be done on RPOL because it has permanence beyond what I can achieve with other systems. Tabletop simulator would be a nightmare to do lots of paperwork on and Roll20 doesn't easily allow asynchronous communication because the players are limited to whatever "map" the GM leaves them on and tracking it all via handouts would be annoying.

I could use google docs + tabletop simulator/roll20...OR I could just run everything on one site that I've used and loved for over a decade.
GreenTongue
 member, 954 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Sat 10 Apr 2021
at 21:27
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
evileeyore:
... Discord.  I can log in periodically through out the day and respond to the games I'm playing in and could update my games once to twice per day if I were running any.

So for me, message board gaming will always be a preference over the other digital options.

Actually, Discord has very good text features and the persistence that is needed.

While RPoL is optimized for text based gaming, Discord has easy multi-media features that can be very attractive/useful for play.

Playing the Devil's Advocate here, check it out sometime. Sounds like you will be surprised.
evileeyore
 member, 476 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Sat 10 Apr 2021
at 21:41
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
GreenTongue:
Actually, Discord has very good text features and the persistence that is needed.

My experience with Discord is that those who enjoy it tend to be extremely prolific posters and I do not enjoy haiving to scroll back 100+ posts to figure what is currently going on, only to discover I'm not only radically far behind, but have missed repeated moments where I could have affected the outcome of the scene.  And if it was a combat encounter?  Forget about it.

In a message board game, scrolling back 10-15 posts of a social (or even combat) scene is fine, Discord has never been only 10-15 posts.

And if you miss a day?

Yeah, no.  It's an entirely different environment where most people have radically different standards.  Now if your group treats it like a message board and only posts a few times a day each?  Great, but my experience is not that.
Hunter
 member, 1643 posts
 Captain Oblivious!
 Lurker
Sat 10 Apr 2021
at 22:20
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
praguepride:
On a personal note I was looking at running a Necromunda game. I looked at the VTT options but they just weren't what I was looking for and don't have the control I desire so I will probably be looking at running it on RPOL because the technology just isn't where I want it to be yet. Yes tabletop simulator is amazing but I LIKE writing and having an easy place to do bookkeeping.


And I think you've hit on the main reason that forum (text) based role play is probably not going to go away.  It's much easier to run the game, and as a (former) GM; I've found that I don't have to come up with answers on the spot.
GreenTongue
 member, 955 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 02:18
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In reply to evileeyore (msg # 21):

I can understand that.
Still posing it as a possibility that it could be drawing people away.
evileeyore
 member, 477 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 03:53
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
GreenTongue:
Still posing it as a possibility that it could be drawing people away.

Oh, no doubt.  VTT and Discord and the like are drawing people away.

I'm just saying there will always be folks like me who won't go that route, and for us message boards will be the preferred medium of the digital offerings.  We just not in the majority, and no doubt we're dwindling.
facemaker329
 member, 7334 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 17:45
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
The most analogous situation I can think of is when MMORPGs came along and some people predicted they would be the demise of MUDs and MUSHes.  They definitely had an impact...but some of us that used to be very active on MU*s just plain old drifted away for reasons that had nothing to do with MMORPGs (which I've never indulged in).

That said, based on stories from friends and family who did get into MMOs, there were still some advantages MU*s had (certainly in terms of exploring development of your characters' personal aspects)...some got bored with the basic "same stuff with a new skin" that was the typical MMO, and went back to MU*s.  Some migrated here, or to other PBP platforms.  Some just got busy with life and decided online gaming (or even gaming in general) was no longer a priority.

VTTs are becoming more versatile, and are, as mentioned earlier, the new toy that's getting all the attention.  For some people, they'll be a better fit.  For others, they won't.  For still others (who have time), they'll split their time between the two and explore the best of both worlds.  And there's always natural attrition...people get too busy, change life priorities, or (sadly) die, and thus we lose users for reasons that have nothing to do with alternative gaming platforms.

RPOL does not, to the best of my knowledge, advertise or recruit...new users come in largely through word of mouth (occasionally, someone's just looking for online role-playing and they happen to stumble through the front door).

But just like MMOs didn't kill off MU*s,  VTTs aren't going to kill RPOL.  Numbers may drop...but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  It's not like RPOL is reliant on sustaining a certain number of users to maintain funding.
NowhereMan
 member, 429 posts
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 18:20
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
I play several games via Discord now, and played one there pre-pandemic, and one thing that I don't think has been said enough in this discussion is that there are some games that just plain don't work well in a standard tabletop setting, virtual or otherwise.

The main ones that come to mind are intrigue focused and, for lack of a better term, "diffused" games.

Even if traditional tabletop players were able to implement 100% separation between player knowledge and character knowledge, a masterfully orchestrated betrayal lacks some of its oomph when the rest of the group has sat around and watched them talk about it for the last hour, and even if it's reduced to manic scribbling of notes, the rest of the group is going to know something's up. Not so of forum games.

And then there's the "diffused" games. It's pretty much impossible to give every player equal time in the spotlight in games where the players are spread out over a large area, such as a bunch of only-tenuously-connected criminals in a crime drama set in a big city, or fledglings from different clans and sects in a game of Vampire. At least not if you want to get anything done in a four-hour time slot. But in a forum game, each of those players can have their own private threads and be just as active as they would be if they were playing solo.
V_V
 member, 927 posts
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 19:30
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?

This message was deleted by the user at 19:42, Sun 11 Apr.

GreenTongue
 member, 956 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Sun 11 Apr 2021
at 23:26
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
When a picture IS worth a thousand words, the ability to quickly add a picture to a thread has value that seems to be missing here.

I certainly agree a site like this that was developed for text based gaming still has features missing other places.

Is it enough to draw people back for the New Shiny? Time will tell.
I suspect its heyday has passed.
Carakav
 member, 677 posts
 Sure-footed paragon
 of forthright dude.
Mon 12 Apr 2021
at 00:27
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
Honestly I think the diminishing of PbP has more to do with phones, then it does with VTT. Phones are terrible for this medium. Some people can get away with it, but you really can't beat a good keyboard in PbP.

Even the shift to mobile won't kill PbP, because there's always going to be people who are comfortable typing on phones, but the shift in technology is basically changing the landscape of how people access interactive fantasies.

This medium won't go the way of the dodo, because there will always be a demand for it, in the same way there's still a demand for books, but I do agree that it's heyday is past.

This message was last edited by the user at 00:30, Mon 12 Apr.

CabbageFox
 member, 3 posts
Sun 18 Apr 2021
at 18:02
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
While I'm new to this site I've been playing and running PbP games for 25 years.  I think the issue could be that PbP hasn't changed with the times.  As much as I lament Twitter, why can't PbP be more short form posting?

Sitting around a table, players are not (usually) opining 500 words at a time yet, in my experience, short and to the point posts are discouraged.  Why?  They usually don't advance the story more than a short post.  I feel like long posts discourage people who can't or won't write longer posts for one reason or another.

I'm reminded of the day Harrison Ford was sick during filming of Raiders of the Lost Ark and rather than having a fight, Indy pulls his gun and shoots the guy with the sword.  That scene is iconic to the character and it wasn't even supposed to there.  It was a longer scene rather than 5 seconds.  Long post vs short post.

I'm not saying long posts don't have their place, they do, but I think dropping the short post stigma would be helpful.

Maybe I'm way off.  Maybe I'm the only one who feels like there is a bias against short posts.

This message was last edited by the user at 18:04, Sun 18 Apr.

GreenTongue
 member, 957 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Sun 18 Apr 2021
at 18:42
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
For what it is worth, I agree. While a lot of people want to think they are a budding author and practicing for a "Best Seller", in my opinion that's not "gaming".

Gaming is moving things forward in a clear way, whether that takes short or long text.
The only problem I have seen with short text updates is, leaving players behind that can't update as frequently.

This message was last edited by the user at 21:09, Sun 18 Apr.

Hunter
 member, 1645 posts
 Captain Oblivious!
 Lurker
Sun 18 Apr 2021
at 20:58
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In reply to CabbageFox (msg # 30):

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.  I recently went looking at other forum sites to expand my role playing experience.

The result?   Every forum wanted "literate" writers, i.e. people who post consistently in multiple paragraphs.

While I'm not really in favor of repeated one-liners, they do have a place.   And I know I'm going to catch flack for saying that.
donsr
 member, 2238 posts
Sun 18 Apr 2021
at 21:04
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
 I don't like one -liners, but i don't need a book  either. All they have to do is covey the persons actions  and emotions  along  with thier  words.

 of course OOC thread is a differant story
Piestar
 member, 859 posts
 once upon a time...
 ...there was a little pie
Sun 18 Apr 2021
at 21:05
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In reply to CabbageFox (msg # 30):

I agree, in fact I was quite pleasantly surprised when I joined a game that said quite clearly that they preferred frequency to length, and that one sentence posts were welcome, though hopefully not all a player ever put out there.
evileeyore
 member, 479 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Sun 18 Apr 2021
at 21:43
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
CabbageFox:
Maybe I'm the only one who feels like there is a bias against short posts.

You're not off.  There is definitely a bias against short posts in the Freeform games, other games?  It varies, but being a pithy soul I've never had an issue leaving a short post in any game I've been in, but the key is to convey what your character is doing, saying, etc, as accurately as possible and sometimes that's not easy with a one liner.

But I can easily get my point across with 2-4 sentences, unless I'm playing an overly verbose character and am given leave to windbag it up.  In that case I can easily leave several paragraphs of nonsensical blatherskite (and quite often accurate if unuseful blatherskite, I rsometimes enjoy opining at length ICly about things that don't make a bit of difference in game).
facemaker329
 member, 7337 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Mon 19 Apr 2021
at 03:02
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In fairness, the bias against short posts in PbP games comes out of people who barely include enough in their post to indicate that they're aware that they're still involved in the game.  I don't think a post needs to be any longer or shorter than necessary to convey what the character is doing and present other characters with something to play off of.  It doesn't happen often in the games I'm now playing in, but it has happened in the past, where a player posts a single sentence that basically amounts to "My character walks in this room." I have seen actual posts that said little more than, "<insert character name> watched." Aside from acknowledging that the character is still in the room or location, there's nothing there to play off of, and that's what most people are talking about when they say they don't want players posting one-liners.

If you can keep your post brief, and still give something to play off of, I have yet to see a GM complain about it.  One line of dialog and one statement of a change of posture or attitude?  No problem, and it gives other players something to react to.  They don't necessarily want a novella out of every post...but they want the posts to do something to advance the story.
CabbageFox
 member, 5 posts
Mon 19 Apr 2021
at 07:15
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 36):

I agree completely.

To return to the core of the topic, while I think PbP hasn't really changed to suit the times, I think Discord is, in a small way, encouraging some change and expanding the PbP audience.

There are many PbP games on Discord and I have no doubt many PbP players on Discord are new to PbP.  I wonder if people who discover PbP on Discord are likely to expand to other platforms or not, however.  Given the various built in, highly customizable features and immediate notifications of post activity, I bet Discord spoils a lot of people for places like RPoL.

So, maybe TV isn't killing the radio star, maybe it's just forcing the radio star to a broadcast online rather than over-the-air.
silentmouse
 member, 32 posts
Mon 19 Apr 2021
at 07:40
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In reply to CabbageFox (msg # 37):

I look at my daughter and her role playing via Discord with friends all over the place and can agree with your statement. These are teens using a PbP method of role playing rather than any sort of video or getting together at the same time. The benefits of PbP is that people in various time zones donít have to necessarily all be available at the exact same time, which is often difficult when time zones come into play.

So while it may be shrinking, I donít think us introverts and busy people are going to give up PbP any time soon. Especially if thereís a new generation coming in as well. That said, itíll be interesting to see how it all evolves.

This message was last edited by the user at 07:41, Mon 19 Apr.

GreenTongue
 member, 959 posts
 Game Archaeologist
Mon 19 Apr 2021
at 11:02
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
CabbageFox:
Given the various built in, highly customizable features and immediate notifications of post activity, I bet Discord spoils a lot of people for places like RPoL.

Shouldn't it also motivate some improvements to RPoL as well?
I know players in real life that need that "immediate notifications of post activity" to get their attention. So many distractions in life that more time than they thought would go by before they checked in to see if there were updates.

It would be nice if it drove some innovation here.

This message was last edited by the user at 16:02, Mon 19 Apr.

donsr
 member, 2239 posts
Mon 19 Apr 2021
at 11:26
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
In the end?  the discord  stuff is good, if you like it. But it might not  inspire loyalty  like RPOL  does?

 on our main page, everything  is 'right there'.. you can see new  activity  and  what it is ( posts, PMs, Both).

 Let's face it, if you are so busy you need   a notification  to  check your game, You are way too busy, or  you don't have interest, or both?

 I have been on scores of sites in my  PBP 'career' This is trhe best site going, the interactions  are good, and, my games  have a community of sorts..Would it be  nice to  interact  with folks in real time, hear thier voices?  you bet.  But..I live  in PA... I have at least 5 players over seas, and another  spread across the US.  we would be  damn lucky to get  3 people to be on line  at the same  time, at any given time.

So?  yeah..Like MMOs or open world Vid games, you can get a following  and have fun and really enjoy yoruself...but only with that small slice  of people
evileeyore
 member, 480 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined August 2015
Mon 19 Apr 2021
at 13:58
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
CabbageFox:
To return to the core of the topic, while I think PbP hasn't really changed to suit the times...

I don't see where PbP needs to "change to suit the times".  Those who prefer real-time interfacing have video-calling and chat services (and real face-to-face interaction).  Leave PbP to those of us who cannot schedule solid blocks of time and prefer to snatch moments of RP throughout the day.
pdboddy
 supporter, 706 posts
 EST/EDT [GMT-5/GMT-4]
Fri 16 Jul 2021
at 19:40
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
Video can't kill the Radio star, as long as someone loves it.
Gaffer
 member, 1698 posts
 Ocoee FL
 45 yrs of RPGs
Fri 16 Jul 2021
at 20:46
Re: Has TV Killed the Radio Star?
silentmouse:
all be available at the exact same time, which is often difficult when time zones come into play

Even without time zone considerations, I have difficulty committing to role play for a four hour stretch the same time every day/week/month. That's why, after many years, my ftf groups faded, it just got too difficult to coordinate everyone.

Since those halcyon days, the people I gamed with moved to a half-dozen different states in the US, as did I. I found PbP and, eventually, Rpol. Here I can gather a group of people and we all post at our leisure, whenever we have a chance and the game rolls on. Sometimes its the same people game after game, sometimes its a whole new group. Sometimes people drop out (as they did in ftf), but the game goes on.