darknash
 member, 167 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 17:18
Reporting Sockpuppets
I have had a problem, not here but with other games, with my son choosing an account name similar to mine. Lived with me so same IP address. At least one sites response, subscribe to prove you are a separate person.
eamiddleon
 member, 18 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 17:23
Reporting Sockpuppets
Thanks folks, mods notified.

donsr, I get why you'd be mixed on this policy, but when you have anonymity protections like we do here, there probably should be some way for reputations to stick. It'll catch some good folks, but I reckon it's on-net a good thing.

Cheers!
donsr
 member, 2466 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 17:44
Reporting Sockpuppets
 bottom line?... for the Admins, you do what you have to do  for the  good of the site.
evileeyore
 member, 620 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined 20150819
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 17:55
Reporting Sockpuppets
donsr:
ok? I havbe been here for decades?..what is a sockpuppet???

A follow-up definition... in most cases where you'll hear sockpuppet accusations it's because the multiple accounts are created for a purpose, backing up, or strawman arguing against (making weak, easily destroyed arguments), a more 'primary' account.  Sockpuppeting is 'useful' in brigading and overwhelming a debate opponent in an online discourse.

So you'll usually see it used in those terms, IE "my opponent has no arguments and has resorting to attacking me with sockpuppets", etc.



eamiddleon:
donsr, I get why you'd be mixed on this policy, but when you have anonymity protections like we do here, there probably should be some way for reputations to stick. It'll catch some good folks, but I reckon it's on-net a good thing.

The problem with this site is there is no way to avoid people game to game, so "reputation" is meaningless inside of games, except the GM's rep.  Granted it's nigh impossible to stalk someone game to game, so it also has it's advantages...

I'm mildly against the odd anonymity policy, but eh, whatever works.
donsr
 member, 2467 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 19:44
Reporting Sockpuppets
I had a new player ( not  new  now, she's been in over a year, closing in on two)..was concerned about a guy who had  followed her   in a couple games and Harrased her..i simply told her if she though he was here, or  came here, I would have  a chat with him.

 he never showed, or?  in the course of my 'interview ' , decided  his time was better spent elsewhere...

 In the end?  GMs can see the   user   names from the games they  run, but you haven't a clue  who the player is  , in a game you don't run...

this place is a place of refuge  and  entertainment... whatever steps  are taken to  keep it that way.is ok.
bazhsw
 member, 50 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 20:00
Reporting Sockpuppets
It's really sad when you hear about things like that.  I know of other players who have shared they have experienced similar harassment.  Whilst it must be really distressing for those who are victims of this behaviour I think that quite often people who use this, and similar platforms to harass people quickly get found out.  They are usually not as clever as they think they are and I recall certain players getting pretty bad reputations across a number of GM's very quickly.  When viewed in this context I really appreciate what the mods and admin do here to root out sock puppet accounts.
donsr
 member, 2469 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 20:07
Reporting Sockpuppets
yep yep Baz?  i tell the players , especially the  female  ones, to let me know if  they are being harrassed.. i can do anything  if i don't know ( i don't read player -player PMs)..but if  i know..i act.... I only  'threw out '3 players in the ..almost  11 years of  my most active game..and all three deserved it.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16067 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 20:38
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
donsr:
( i don't read player -player PMs)

As a GM, you should be doing exactly that.  RPoL requires that a GM be aware of every aspect of his game (including the PMs) and that he is ready to deal with any content which breaks the site's rules, even in the PM threads.

For example, if two players are using a private thread to exchange links to illegal downloads of copyrighted material - if that is discovered by Site Moderators, we will want to know why the GM didn't stop them doing it.
donsr
 member, 2470 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 20:50
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
ouch
ladysharlyne
 subscriber, 3267 posts
 Member before Oct 2005
 A Pox on Vanishing Player
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 21:21
Reporting Sockpuppets
From the get go over 15 years ago I have guarded my players by reading every thread & PM just in case there is any problems or trouble starting.  Sometimes stepping in to offer help, mainly, or to say that won’t work here.

As a GM it was a huge relief when the site decided to vet Adult players by knowing their true date of birth for two weeks.  If I feel that a player is lying about their age, may have more than one sign in account, etc then I take it up with Admin.  They have a tough enough job keeping this site legal by all the internet laws.  They do an excellent job so we, as GMs, should help them by alerting them to any suspicions we might have.

As for players stating that they think some one is harassing them then I look at the whole picture and ask the stalker/harasser to leave or put them out.  Player’s attitudes usually give them away as their OOC actions/reactions are  bad attitudes and it is important to me that ALL my players are happy.  I have no fights, arguments, flaming of another player or  GM(in my game or from another game) and I won’t hesitate to remove the thorn.

So sock puppets, harasser/stalkers, bad player attitudes I deal with them however I need to do  to run  my games by RPol rules and I read all PMs.

Do you want to run the risk of losing  your game and your rights here because of one player when you have good players to keep happy and protect???
korodikrisz
 member, 23 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 22:04
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
bigbadron:
donsr:
( i don't read player -player PMs)

As a GM, you should be doing exactly that.  RPoL requires that a GM be aware of every aspect of his game (including the PMs) and that he is ready to deal with any content which breaks the site's rules, even in the PM threads.

For example, if two players are using a private thread to exchange links to illegal downloads of copyrighted material - if that is discovered by Site Moderators, we will want to know why the GM didn't stop them doing it.


In most countries it's illegal to read into private conversations (there are even rules how to handle envelopes you opened accidentally not addressed to you), and ffs, these are actually named "Private Messages" for some reason.

I find it kinda wild, that I have to police my games for private messages (to be clear, I'm not an authority in my place of residence), and I don't remember in the Terms and Conditions accepting anything like that between users, only between user and admin/mod.
bazhsw
 member, 53 posts
Wed 29 Dec 2021
at 23:42
Reporting Sockpuppets
In reply to korodikrisz (msg # 18):

I think it is in the site rules here:

quote:
The GM is responsible for controlling the content of their game so that it fits within our rules.... Every GM of an adult game is responsible for knowing our Adult Games Policy, for policing their game's content...


It's pretty explicit there.  A Private Message between players isn't 'private' from the GM, it's private from the other players and the equivalent of passing a note at a gaming table.  In my view it's an important safety mechanism for players knowing a GM is keeping an eye on all content.
Evil Empryss
 supporter, 1584 posts
 Insert witty and
 appropriate quote here
Thu 30 Dec 2021
at 01:40
Reporting Sockpuppets
As for the "private" part of the Private Message, check again. It specifically and clearly states at the bottom of the PM

Note that GMs can see all correspondence in their games, this includes private messages and text.
deadtotheworld22
 member, 182 posts
Thu 30 Dec 2021
at 01:59
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
bazhsw:
In reply to korodikrisz (msg # 18):

I think it is in the site rules here:

quote:
The GM is responsible for controlling the content of their game so that it fits within our rules.... Every GM of an adult game is responsible for knowing our Adult Games Policy, for policing their game's content...


It's pretty explicit there.  A Private Message between players isn't 'private' from the GM, it's private from the other players and the equivalent of passing a note at a gaming table.  In my view it's an important safety mechanism for players knowing a GM is keeping an eye on all content.


Agreed. It's not an ideal situation for either party (players can feel watched and GMs can feel that they're prying) but ultimately it's for the safety of everyone involved.

As GMs, it's our job to keep everyone safe, and you can't do that if there's a possibility that one of the players can be sending threats or abuse to another without you knowing it.
facemaker329
 member, 7376 posts
 Gaming for over 40
 years, and counting!
Thu 30 Dec 2021
at 06:09
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
donsr:
I have mixed feelings about this...


In my experience, people don't get bounced for duplicate accounts unless they willfully demonstrate a disregard for the policy.  I mean, the CoLS 'Double Trouble' thread has a bunch of places where players are praised for turning in their own duplicate accounts.  The vast majority of players addressed in that thread are only 'banned pending discussion' of the policy they've violated (effectively just suspended, not actually banned).  If anything, I'd say the mods here are extremely lenient in how they handle most cases of duplicate accounts.

Of course, every so often you get the wunderkind who thinks that they can bluff and bully the mods into bending the rules JUST for them.  Those posts are actually kind of entertaining to read, although I'd imagine for the mods, it's rather tedious dealing with them.

This message was last edited by the user at 05:35, Fri 31 Dec 2021.

bigdaddyG
 member, 74 posts
Fri 31 Dec 2021
at 02:51
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
I never see a reason for duplicate accounts myself. Only reasons I could think of is trying to get around a ban, so they deserve what they get.

Or probs with password which case contact the mods.

Lastly is the sad cases of wreaking havoc and such.

I As a live streamer I've been experiencing this. Several accounts per stream, same message. And its frustrating.

Myself, I personally couldn't fathom it. I have a hard enough time keeping up with one account.
evileeyore
 member, 622 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined 20150819
Fri 31 Dec 2021
at 07:51
Reporting Sockpuppets
bigdaddyG:
I never see a reason for duplicate accounts myself.

I can think of several reasons, one of which I consider to be legitimate:  Testing how things appear/work in your game before bringing in Players or making the thread public.
bigbadron
 moderator, 16069 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 31 Dec 2021
at 09:02
Reporting Sockpuppets
Don't make extra accounts, for any reason.  There are NO acceptable reasons/excuses for doing so.

See also here: /help/?t=faqs&page=multiple+accounts
bigbadron
 moderator, 16070 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 31 Dec 2021
at 09:40
Reporting Sockpuppets
Also, a clarification.

People do not get banned for creating extra accounts.  The extra account is banned immediately it is discovered, and an rMail is sent to both accounts - the original and the extra - pointing out the site's policy on multiple accounts, and asking them to confirm that they have read it and will abide by it in future.  Failure to give that confirmation, within a reasonable time frame, will result in a ban for the original account too (a ban which is normally lifted a day or two later, when the user gets in touch with us, as requested, and confirms they'll follow the rules).

The vast majority of people who create extra accounts continue to use the site with their original account after the duplicate is banned.

Exceptions to this are, invariably, people who:
  • don't acknowledge the site rules
  • people who respond with abuse/insults/profanity
  • people who simply continue to create more extra accounts

  • people who don't acknowledge the rules, AND abuse the Moderators, AND create more accounts

bigdaddyG
 member, 76 posts
Fri 31 Dec 2021
at 18:16
Reporting Sockpuppets
In reply to evileeyore (msg # 24):

To be fair you could just create chars to do this. As BBR states it goes against site rules. I think I saw a group doing this on another site but wasn't sure and that site didn't have rules against it. And it got out of hand.

Since being here I saw in the Chamber, some of those names.

Same site I also saw a banned player using it to get around the ban and harrassing other members. I for one am grateful the rule exists here.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 430 posts
Fri 31 Dec 2021
at 19:03
Reporting Sockpuppets
bigdaddyG:
To be fair you could just create chars to do this.

In fairness to evileeyore, you actually /can't/ see what your game looks like to players, as a GM, by using a character. Once you have GM access, everything you view is seen through the lens of that GM access (except for the new option to preview posts as specific characters, but that's new, and only applicable at the time of writing/previewing.)

Not an excuse for making duplicate accounts, of course, but eeyore is correct that it /is/ something that can really only be done (without bringing in a friend/spouse/etc that also plays on RPoL) via having a second account.

...or logging out of RPoL entirely and then looking at the game, but that won't work for most things that are posted. /shrug (It /is/ the only way to see what your players see on the cast list logins, though, so thank goodness that works for that!)
evileeyore
 member, 623 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
 Joined 20150819
Sat 1 Jan 2022
at 02:52
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
SunRuanEr:
In fairness to evileeyore, you actually /can't/ see what your game looks like to players, as a GM, by using a character. Once you have GM access, everything you view is seen through the lens of that GM access (except for the new option to preview posts as specific characters, but that's new, and only applicable at the time of writing/previewing.)

Exactly... and I don't trust that new fangled thingy to work correctly...

At some point I'll just have to invite a friend into my game and check out how things look over at his house just to make sure it's turning out properly.

quote:
...or logging out of RPoL entirely and then looking at the game, but that won't work for most things that are posted.

My game is going to be Adult so that isn't going to work at all.

quote:
(It /is/ the only way to see what your players see on the cast list logins, though, so thank goodness that works for that!)

Ah good to know.  However that won't have any bearing on what I'll be doing as I won't be hiding who the NPCs are.
Skald
 moderator, 954 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 1 Jan 2022
at 03:23
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
Given that what a player sees is affected by what groups they're in - both threads and private groups (used for languages) - it'd be a LOT of messing around logging in and out and switching options anyway to try to duplicate what a given player sees, even if it wasn't a breach of the ToU.

I'd rather trust to the system, including the GM post preview option, and accept that in the unlikely event anything does go wrong (and invariably when things have gone wrong in my posts, it's because I decided to type it myself rather than use the available tools, so mea culpa), it doesn't really matter - we're all friends here, and while I'm probably a lot more pedantic than the next person, I'm reasonably certain that if I make a mistake it's not going to ruin the game for my players.  :>

Whereas I have flashbacks of the face-to-face gaming of my youth where in the heat of the moment it's soooo easy to mistakenly read entirely the wrong room description and confuse absolutely everyone, including myself !  <ROFL>

This message was lightly edited by the user at 04:23, Sat 01 Jan.

bigdaddyG
 member, 77 posts
Sat 1 Jan 2022
at 03:32
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
Still newer so still learning. Though also getting off topic.

All in all overall don't do duplicate accounts. The sockpuppet thing can get out of hand as a whole.

Being able to see a game from a players perspective would be a cool feature for GM's to have. As a whole I takw what I see when Iplay in games ran by others. Seeing how it looks helps me to visualize my own.

Adult games : good rule is Group 0 is public. This is where I put rules and rtj info. Then use Group 1 and such for the sensitive material.

Now games with die rolls gets harder. I believe only GM sees all. While players will see ach others. I may be wrong though.

Cast list can be viewed by all except login times. Though being logged out would be a way.
donsr
 member, 2479 posts
Sat 1 Jan 2022
at 06:02
Re: Reporting Sockpuppets
log in are seen..just not  times ( by players)

everyone  sees all dice rolls, unless you use  'secret roll"  ..DM  stills sees this