Z-master
 member, 4 posts
Mon 19 Dec 2022
at 14:43
Hero System / Champions which edition?
I know nothing about first or second editions. I think third edition was very good, and fourth edition was even better (on the whole). It seemed to me that fifth edition was still very good but a bit much.

I know very little about sixth edition, but what I have read is unsettling. I liked Comeliness as a characteristic, and I liked brick-friendly figured stats from strength, and both are gone (from what I have read). There might be other changes I won't like. Also, I'm not sure what books I would need to buy to run a Champions campaign as sixth edition, but any of the three good previous editions would be easy.

Which editions of Champions do you like, and why?

Users and fans of sixth edition / Champions Complete, please talk about what you like and don't like in the new Champions.

This message had punctuation tweaked by the user at 14:45, Mon 19 Dec 2022.

Jobe00
 member, 345 posts
 Role-Playing
 Game Mechanic
Tue 20 Dec 2022
at 18:42
Hero System / Champions which edition?
Mechanically, I prefer HERO6, but for setting, C4 is the best.

One thing I like about HERO6 is they got rid of derived stats. Everything has a base, and you buy it up, and they increased the points to compensate.
DBCowboy
 member, 83 posts
 Played rpgs since about
 '81 (D&D Basic ed)
Tue 20 Dec 2022
at 19:21
Hero System / Champions which edition?
6th edition is my preference.  Totally agree with JobeOO, I don't miss derived stats at all.  Strength was easily the most cost-effective thing to buy in previous editions.  Not so much anymore.

Comeliness was usually abused or ignored.  Rarely saw any middle-ground with it.  You can always buy Striking Appearance if you want their looks to have an impact.

Less Complications are required.  Thank...God!  If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit there any try to come up with some stupid complication just to try to get to the 150 point limit or else lose out on some needed points for my character...  Now you can hit those that are actually important.

Wish they would have make Killing Attacks an Advantage rather than a separate power.  As it is, I like the Stun Multiplier changing from d6-1 to 1/2d6, much less of a lotto.

The modifications to Adjustment powers were overall fine (Absorption 1CP/1 Body absorbed instead of 5CP/d6, Aid costing 6CP/d6 instead of 10CP/d6 but now costs END to use, set Growth categories rather than buying in 5CP increments, etc...)

No doubt the different changes impact some character concepts more than others but overall was a solid improvement to the system.

Things I don't like....really only think of one:
- HKA's aren't limited to x2 base damage from STR UNLESS they have the Real Weapon limitation applied to them.  So that 2d6HKA in the hands of your 60 STR Brick?  Yeah he can carve up someone for 6d6 killing damage if he used all his strength behind the swing.
soulsight
 member, 341 posts
 Reality is 10% perception
 and 90% interpretation.
Tue 20 Dec 2022
at 21:27
Hero System / Champions which edition?
I couldn't pick one as my favorite. I'm currently using sixth edition, and I appreciate the changes that were made. I had already ignored comeliness, to the point that the players were warned away from using it. Making the effects these players wanted into powers was a great move.
I've never been a fan of large numbers of disadvantages are required to make up for the power your character has. It's good to see that change.
Otherwise, it's mostly familiar and without a thorough knowledge of the various 'versions' of the system, you'd be hard pressed to watch a game and know which one they're using.
Z-master
 member, 6 posts
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 01:28
Re: Hero System / Champions which edition?
Jobe00:
Mechanically, I prefer HERO6, but for setting, C4 is the best.


The supplements for the fourth edition were great, and I still have some. I would want to use them. Will there be any problem with that?

Also, and these questions are for anyone, does Champions Complete really have everything you need to play sixth edition Champions, or does it have what you need to run a scenario or two with the pre-generated characters, but if you want to use new material written for the sixth edition they'll be referring you to the huge and forbidding blue books to find the rules they assume you have access to?
Z-master
 member, 7 posts
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 01:47
Re: Hero System / Champions which edition?
DBCowboy:
6th edition is my preference.  Totally agree with JobeOO, I don't miss derived stats at all.  Strength was easily the most cost-effective thing to buy in previous editions.  Not so much anymore.

[...]

Things I don't like....really only think of one:
- HKA's aren't limited to x2 base damage from STR UNLESS they have the Real Weapon limitation applied to them.  So that 2d6HKA in the hands of your 60 STR Brick?  Yeah he can carve up someone for 6d6 killing damage if he used all his strength behind the swing.

Those are all helpful, specific comments. I was leaning away from Champions Complete before, but I am leaning toward it now.

What happens now with DEX, which was also a bargain? How cost effective is it to buy pure Combat Value?

Am I right in speculating that bricks are as good as ever, and not abusive unless the game-master foolishly lets a player character have a brick with a killing attack that doesn't take the Real Weapon disadvantage?

Complications concern me the most, because they are fundamental to character building. What is the difference between a Complication and a Disadvantage, other than the name and how many points you need to rustle up? Is this a fundamentally different concept, or a subtly different concept?
Jobe00
 member, 346 posts
 Role-Playing
 Game Mechanic
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 06:49
Hero System / Champions which edition?
Z-master:
The supplements for the fourth edition were great, and I still have some. I would want to use them. Will there be any problem with that?

The stats are still pretty much the same, so you should be good. Just update the powers to the new mechanics and you should be good.
Z-master
 member, 8 posts
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 07:06
Re: Hero System / Champions which edition?
Jobe00:
The stats are still pretty much the same, so you should be good. Just update the powers to the new mechanics and you should be good.

This is sounding better and better.

I guess the most important thing for me to ask, given that I am thinking of running a game based on teen mentalists, is this: do EGO powers work basically the same as before? If a villain wants to drain the hero's EGO and then mind control him, is that the same sort of threat as it used to be? Or do mentalists work differently now?
DBCowboy
 member, 84 posts
 Played rpgs since about
 '81 (D&D Basic ed)
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 14:55
Re: Hero System / Champions which edition?
Z-master:
What happens now with DEX, which was also a bargain? How cost effective is it to buy pure Combat Value?


DEX only costs 2CP now and no longer impacts SPD or OCV/DCV.   Now everyone doesn't have to have these monstrous DEX scores just to have good OCV/DCV.

The tweaks to the skill level costs are interesting.  You have small group and large groups now of CSLs, all HTH/All Ranged cost 8CP now.  Since so many skills are Agility based skill levels for all Agility actually cost 6CP while all Intellect/Interaction or other broad group only cost 4CP.  Overall skill levels cost 12 but can apply to pretty much anything including combat, PER roll, contact/favor rolls, etc...

Haven't run any numbers but generally I thought they all worked well.

Z-master:
Am I right in speculating that bricks are as good as ever, and not abusive unless the game-master foolishly lets a player character have a brick with a killing attack that doesn't take the Real Weapon disadvantage?


Anything can be abused in Hero System.  Someone buying 40 points of PRE is potentially abusive.  GM should always have a say on limiting something that they think might cause problems for their game.  As for Bricks, yeah, great as ever and still my favorite.


Z-master:
Complications concern me the most, because they are fundamental to character building. What is the difference between a Complication and a Disadvantage, other than the name and how many points you need to rustle up? Is this a fundamentally different concept, or a subtly different concept?


Disadvantage was just renamed to Complication.   A standard super is now 400 points instead of 350 and require 75 points in Complications instead of the old 150.  I think the Complication point requirements are roughly half what they used to be.  Reviewing the write-ups for the Champions in Champions Complete, they all have 4-5 Complications.

Z-master:
I guess the most important thing for me to ask, given that I am thinking of running a game based on teen mentalists, is this: do EGO powers work basically the same as before? If a villain wants to drain the hero's EGO and then mind control him, is that the same sort of threat as it used to be? Or do mentalists work differently now?


So the most interesting change for Mentalists is the new OMCV/DMCV stats (offensive mental combat value & defensive mental combat value).  They cost 3CP per level with a base value of 3.  Otherwise I don't recall any big changes with the powers themselves.

This message was last edited by the user at 14:58, Wed 21 Dec 2022.

soulsight
 member, 342 posts
 Reality is 10% perception
 and 90% interpretation.
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 16:58
Re: Hero System / Champions which edition?
Z-master:
Jobe00:
The stats are still pretty much the same, so you should be good. Just update the powers to the new mechanics and you should be good.

This is sounding better and better.

I guess the most important thing for me to ask, given that I am thinking of running a game based on teen mentalists, is this: do EGO powers work basically the same as before? If a villain wants to drain the hero's EGO and then mind control him, is that the same sort of threat as it used to be? Or do mentalists work differently now?


It's slightly different, on a per point basis, due to the change to OMCV and DMCV. If the target puts ten points in mental defense because they're strong-willed, the attacker can compensate by spending an extra ten points on the attack. If the target decides they're will isn't that strong but they're very self-aware so they stick an extra ten points in DMCV, the attacker can throw ten more points into OMCV to compensate. Of course, that means the attacker will have to spend more points on the attack than is needed for the target to defend themselves, but that's normal.
Z-master
 member, 9 posts
Wed 21 Dec 2022
at 17:01
Re: Hero System / Champions which edition?
I bought Champions Complete, and I'll be playing and running sixth edition rules at every opportunity.

You've all been great, and very specific. Thank you for this.