If you think that was my point, then you weren't listening either.

Ok,

I went back up to the top of the page and re-read dollsteak's concerns. For better or worse they could by some be considered valid by some so I suppose that there should be some type of answer given for those that may also see them as concerns.

The first that there appears to be a conflict of interest if for John being the Chairman and also heading up the "Save PBW" attempt. Well, if PBW and RPoL were competitors for paying customers, yes there would be a conflict of interest here. Yes they are asking for money from the community, but it is not required in order to play here. It is voluntary donations that are asked for. There would be a conflict in my mind if John were to promote one site over the other, thus stealing customers for his own interests. But there are no customers to steal. Some people play at RPoL, some play at PBW and some at both. I personally join a game because of the game. I really don't care what sight it is on. I am equally interested in seeing both sights prosper myself. The reason for this is that I know some GM's have a preference of one site over another. I for instance would rather GM a game on RPoL. But as a player I play on whatever site the game is. This is just one of four such places that I go to RP. For all of these reasons I do not see much of a conflict, none at all actually.

The second concern is that Shannara is the Treasurer voted in by three people and that the general populace of RPoL had no say in the decision. Well, those three people must have some measure of trust in Shannara to trust her with the money. It takes quite a bit to earn someone's trust when you really have no idea who they are. I do not think those three people would have named her treasurer if Shannara had not earned that trust. This is not a job that could just be thrown up for the general populous to apply for or vote on. Maybe in the rest of the world it could be done that way, but this is an Internet community where people rarely know who they are really talking to. It must be done based on a different set of rules. Do I know Shannara well enough to trust her? Personally I do not, but I know she has been around a long time and that she has gained a measure of trust from the admins of RPoL and based on that information I can trust her to do as she says she will do. Therefore I believe that the money will only be used what it was donated for, to keep this sight from disappearing. The same answers I would give for a replacement if that should ever become a necessity. It must be someone that the board will trust to handle the money.

Whether or not Shannara also helps with the "Save PBW" fund, the question on a conflict of interest can be answered by both of the above answers.

On the subject of positions on the board being selected by the current members of said board; This also falls to a matter of trust, again, trust that is not easily earned when dealing with people that you do not really know. We have to trust that those on the current board choose people that have earned their trust and therefore deserve my trust. From what I can see by looking over all the information, anyone is welcome to help, but I would not just trust anyone that spoke up to just take over control of a regional account. Do I see this as some form of clique? No, or that would mean that I think I am part of another clique here at RPoL that does not really exist except in the minds of a few.

It was mentioned that more power should be given to the RPoL community. Anyone that wants to express a concern about what is going on or to ask questions about what is going on is free to do so. That is what this forum was set up for. Anyone that wishes to express a view need only request access and it will be granted. If the "Board" did not want to listen to the views and concerns of the community this forum would not be here. Are they going to put things up to a general vote? I for one hope that they don't. As was stated in a previous post, I don't think that most people have any idea what is going on or for that matter really care as long as they get to play their games. They give money out of the goodness of their hearts because they really care for this place and want it to continue. They must believe that the money will be put to the use for which it was given. The only way most will know if the "Board" can be trusted is to see what they do. I find it hard to believe that this endeavor will last if those in charge prove untrustworthy. Which I seriously doubt will happen. I know that these people care for RPoL and for our mutual love of Role-Playing as much as I do.

Another point is that the money donated will be used for what the "Board" wants. The only person that will make decisions about where the money goes is the Admins of RPoL. It is only being taken care of by FoRPoL to take some of the weight off of said admins.

I see this as not a group of 4 people looking out for the interests of them selves, but a group of people that are looking out for the interests of us all. Those interests being that of making sure that RPoL is around for a long, long time. And I think the likelihood of Woof walking away from this thing and handing it over to FoRPoL are as likely as, like Shannara stated above, a snowball's chance in hell.

After looking over this I have decided that it may look like I am trying to continue the argument, but really I am not. What Dollsteak wanted was to voice his concerns about what he felt was wrong with FoRPoL and have someone try to address them. All I wanted to do was address those concerns as a person that is currently not a member of the "Board", as an outsider looking in.

Thank you, Hube.  Finally, an objective opposing post with a good deal of thought and not all the emotion behind it.  You make some excellent points.  But there are two things you are overlooking.

1) If there are meetings, they are only going to be inviting board members (unless this gets changed).  Any concerns mentioned in these meetings will be addressed only by the board members.  There is no promise of voicing concerns over issues brought up at the meetings beforehand for the public to add their opinions.  Any voting on the issues happens at those meetings.  So just because you have your say now on this issue doesn't mean it will always be offered to you.

2) The only reason this messagebase exists ... offering you the chance to voice your opinion on the subject... is because I made a stink about it in Group 8 messagebases, then resigned.  Had I not done that, none of these issues would have even been made public.  As a matter of fact, I wasn't even going to say anything until Shannara opened the floor.  That was an invite to allow me to make my concerns public.  If they are going to tell you some people have concerns, they should at least make it clear what the concerns properly were.  Given the opportunity, I did that for them.  Everyone else would have remained in blissful ignorance of the potential problems had I just kept my opinions to myself, had I just nodded in silence and remained on the ivory tower.  Yes, John addressed that there were concerns, but just how specific was he?  Re-read his opening post and then ask yourself again... is that the extent of detail you can expect about future concerns?  If that's the case, wouldn't you benefit more greatly by given the opportunity to be present at these meetings?

Well then, The best compromise would be to have a fifth member who's only responsibility would be to know the views and concerns of the RPoL community as posted in this forum and make sure those concerns are addressed. I don't think it would be very hard as I don't see many concerns coming up, but it would make sure that the little people did have a small voice.

I don't doubt anyones integrity, because no one has given me a reason to.

(That includes you, dollsteak)

From what I see, this site is much better than PbW (Not a flame, just what I think is true).  Woof can't handle everything all the time, so I think it's good that people have stepped up ready to help woof.

I also wouldn't want to see us torn apart because of something like this.  Most of us have become friends since coming from PbW.  We left that site, but did we fall apart?  No.  We joined together on this site.

(And now I'm rambling...)

As a player here I'd just like to remind everyone of something. When RPOL went down and we were a stuck with no games, Woof and Elspike busted there ass:
A)Getting RPOL back up and running quickly.
B)Keeping all of us informed as to what was happening.
Did they do this because they had to, no I think not, they showed me dedication above and beyond what they needed to do. If they trust the people collecting the money to do the right thing then that is good enough for me.

Let me see if I got this right. People can send in money to help pay for the fees that come with keeping this site up. These three people have stepped up and set up a way for the players to help Jase pay for it this. That is all they are doing.

Will they have any power or control in RPOL? No. Because there is nothing to gain power or control over. They are just money collectors for Jase. There is nothing they can gain from helping that will grant them anything special. OH NO! they may get a special tag or something on their name. OH GOD NO!!!! :P

Should the people who send in money have a say in anything? So long as we know our money is getting used to pay the bills to keep RPOL up that should be good enough. Plus there really is nothing to vote on really. If the players have an idea for the site there is already a way to voice that opinion. What is there to vote on? New features? I think Woof is doing just fine deciding what should be added.

As far as the trust thing goes. If you don't trust them do not send any money. Simple as that. I know Shan very well and I know of John and I trust them more then most of the people I deal with face to face.

As for the titles. Well who gives a rats arse what they call their positions. If John wants to give himself a title like "GOD OF MONEY" who cares? It is not like they are a corp or a business where titles mean something.

As for the PBW stuff. If they want to help keep it up and running that is cool. I play over there as well as here. There is no conflict of interest as far as them helping with the other site goes. This is not a business where you are competting with eachother for a playerbase.

As for meetings. Well what are they going to do? Talk about how much money they got. They can make a public post about how much money they have gained through donations. What issues do the people need to address? none really. Hell Jase could scan in a copy of paid bills so those of you who have a lack of trust can see that his bills were paid for this site. I don't see any need for players to have a meeting with those who we send our money to.

Frankly I support them in what they are doing. I do not see any of the other people here getting up and making a way to support this place.

Again if you do not feel you can trust them, don't send them any money. It is that simple. It is stupid to piss and moan over something this simple. They will not have any power or control over anything other then the money that is sent to them. I do not think any of them are stupid enough to try and muck with a lot of people and have the IRS come down on them.

Think it's no big deal to be 'pissing and moaning' about?

Fine.  I'll drop the matter if John agrees to make the meetings available to the public.  Hell, that's all I'm asking for anyway.  Is there any reason why the public shouldn't be allowed to participate?

Ah-hah... there is the bottom-line question.  Is there any reason why the public is left out?
This message was last edited by the player at 07:13, Sun 29 Sept 2002.

How many of you are shareholders of a company?

Each of the GMs here, each of your individual actions put forth to make a great game essentially qualifies you as a shareholder of RPOL.  Granted, we're not making money here, that's why they aren't legimate shares.  That's why you're not charging for your games, and players aren't paying to play.  But as shareholders, you should be given the right to monitor freely the business affairs of the company.

Woof addresses us quite well from the programming stand-point.  We voice our concerns on public messagebases, and he responds with "It's done".  But then woof doesn't go and have private meetings either.  What is the need for privacy?  They're not giving out account numbers in the meeting.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:59, Sun 29 Sept 2002.

I will agree. there is no real need to make it private because nothing important will be put there like account numbers, CC numbers, etc. Honestly they don't really need to meet. It is not like they are making decisions based on how RPOL is run or what is done to it. They can just converse via an IM and tell each other the monthly total of donations and send the info to Jase so he knows how much he has to pay the bills.

As for the public being left out. Well there is nothing to leave them out of. I think Shan already said she was going to post how much was donated like every month or every quarter. So there really is no need for meetings at all, but if they want to meet about adding more people to help collect money the should be able to have it in private.

That way no chance of people getting their feelings hurt or the friend of this guy bombarding them with messages saying that such and such is not this way or that way and they would be good for this. After the meeting they can make things public if they added someone to help them.

Shareholders? 95% of the people here don't do anything to further RPOL. They play here for free on the dime of others. Just because someone is a DM/GM does not make them a shareholder of any sort. If you give some money then you have a vested interest in the future of RPOL and making sure it is around for some time. So if anything only those who flip over some cash should have access to any sort of information that is done behind the scenes.

Don't know if I agree with that.  The money is voluntary, and it's not to buy a higher status.  To me, anyone who dedicates their attention to making a good game is donating to the site.

Actually Dollsteak there IS a good reason to limit the number of people at a meeting.  How much would be decided if 200 people were in a chat room discussing stuff?  How easy would it be to keep track of what was being said?

Consider this:  you work for a company.  Do you get invited to board meetings?
Do you get a vote in who is on the board?  No to both I would imagine, unless it's a very small company.

You were quite happy with the set up, you were one of the people who voted on the positions of Treasurer and Chairman, until some people mentioned they would still be supporting PbW.  True, I'm not happy with Jim myself, but if other people want to deal with him, then I couldn't stop it, and I'm glad John and Shannara were honest enough to tell us about the Save PbW idea.

Do it myself Shannara?  My god, tell me you are kidding!  Are you insane!?  Why'd I want to redo all the bloody hard work you lot have already done?  This is like the portraits, a burden I'm very happy and grateful not to know.

I said I'd turn RPoL over to FoRPoL after it was setup, so it can't be said that was any motivation for setting up FoRPoL.  You should also question why I chose FoRPoL as the body to hand it over to, and that's because I believe the members are trustworthy and take the interests of the RPoL users to heart.  Incorrectly or not I also view IronSite, elSpike and Jhael non-active members of FoRPoL, and I know each of them personally.

Dollsteak, unless you don't want the job any longer you're still doing the portraits.  I believe the rolls of FAQ writers, portrait editor etc were added to the list as the people that did those jobs were members of FoRPoL.  In hindsight it probably would be best to leave them separate.

The money from donations goes to reducing the money I have to spend on keeping RPoL operational; ie hosting costs.  If it's ever to be spent on anything different then I would demand that each and every donator be contacted for their approval.

As for a clique group... I guess there is one, in so far that you could label any group with limited membership as a clique group.  The FoRPoL members clique group... whoopty dee...!  I guess there's a RPoL donators clique group too... and a RPoL members clique group!

Unfortunately by using the site you imply trust in me.  You trust I won't hand out your e-mail address, you trust I won't try to run any malicious code, you trust the site will still be here tomorrow, and hopefully you trust who I trust.

There are going to be holes that can be picked in any system can be thought up (unless you want to start paying someone more than we're collecting).  In the end nobody is forcing anyone to use the donation system setup by FoRPoL.  Nobody is forcing people to make a donation, and if they do they can suggest an alternative method to get the money to myself/my hosting provider.

I think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect the members of FoRPoL not to have interests with any other roleplay related site out there.  The fact it's PbW (rather than say Namshaske and 'The Pork') does make it a bitter pill to swallow, but I believe it also speaks volumes for our volunteer's personalities; they're willing to help save the site of a person they (to varying degrees) dislike because they want to help the roleplay users and the RP community.

I don't see any conflicts of interest.  Of course peoples times are going to be split, but sleep, work, rest, play, cooking, cleaning, gardening, drinking etc all split up our time.  All I expect is for the members to dedicate the time that is needed to run FoRPoL.  There's no way I or anyone else can demand they not spend any time on Project Y or spend more time on FoRPoL than they do on Project Y (as long as Project Y isn't "The total destruction of RPoL" of course...)

To name names, John's even went to the extent of emailing Jim and myself about a friendly competition for short stories.  This idea involved John creating a web site, advertising and (again John) fronting the cash for the winner (it involved me saying "sounds good").  Sounds like someone who is a RP fanatic and (possibly) bites off more than he can chew rather than anything more sinister.

If the public thinks someone within RoRPoL is acting 'flaky' then I would expect them to contact me along with the other FoRPoL members.  If the FoRPoL group doesn't act then I certainly can and will.  If anything unusual happens with a single cent of a donation then I shall be investigating with my steel-cap shoes on.

We can't start having voting mechanism for FoRPoL members because then it becomes a popularity contest.  No matter what system is put forward I can guarantee that the members are going to be picked/approved by me.

As for inviting the general public to meetings... these meetings are supposed to finish?  If there was some way to make it view-only for the public it would be ok, but 50 people turning up to such a meeting would make it a disaster.  I believe (for whatever reason this game/forum was created) that this is the appropriate area for RPoL members to voice their concerns.  Logs of the meetings can be given, and already are.

It may seem harsh to say this, but I think everyone would do well to remember that RPoL is not a democracy, it is a totalitarian dictatorship.  You're just all fortunate that your overlord (i.e. me) created this site for you, cares about your opinions, your wants, your needs so that it seems like a democracy.  You're also fortunate that a group of RP fanatics that I trust have volunteered to start FoRPoL.

(TomC1060; it was more IronSite than elSpike, not that it really matters but IronSite should get the nod.)

Lastly; woot!  Hube prefers to GM on RPoL!


Love and kisses,

 - Your caring dictator

Incorrectly or not I also view IronSite, elSpike and Jhael non-active members of FoRPoL, and I know each of them personally.

I am a member in the sense that I dontate and talk about rpol... thats about it...

(TomC1060; it was more IronSite than elSpike, not that it really matters but IronSite should get the nod.)

Yeah, my action was to complain to woof that the site was down. If that is busting my ass then I should take a holiday from complaining...

woof is right. Forpol is somewhere that people can donate to (people requested it.. rpol didnt ask for money) and that is good. Hey, I dont care... I can just pass woof some money in person.

beer and skittles time

elSpike (not EL Spike) >:o(

I stand corrected. Woof and Ironsite busted their ass while ElSpike stood by complaining. There does that make everyone feel better? *evil grin*

much better...

I prefer to be seen in my true complaining light (saves the disapointment later)

Hey complaining is a dirty thankless job, I'm glad you volunteered it saves the rest of us from having to do it. ;) (Seriously though I haven't found anything here to complain about. From what I've seen if a problem gets pointed out one of the Admins is on it like a Pit Bull on raw meat. I'm really impressed with this site and the way it's handeled. I've said so privately and publicly.)

All I have done so far is use the RPoL site for gaming.  I am donating, because I like the site and have the opportunity to Role Play, and it is my way to say thank you for providing a place, and a help to keep it going.  I am also prepared to help out as a volunteer, my skills being more limiting than perhaps time.

To find a parralel in the real world is not to look at government structures, or corporate business entities, but volunteer grass roots organisations.  At the grass roots level, people see something that is good, and that they support with voluntary donations...only expecting to see the continuance of that good work.

Going up one level, there are local personailities, who make the effort to go a little further...organise a "garage sale"...collect food....do local projects to promote or enhance the organisation.  Eventually you do see a level, where some actual organization work is being done, by voluteers doing what they can to lighten the load.

As for the "upper" echelon, yes they do have meetings, set policies and try things out and do not need to run to the public over every matter.  Those folks have to be trusted, and will definately take the up feed of user and supporter concern into consideration.  Being smart people they will down feed information to the users.  If they are failing in that regard, the "little people" will move on leaving the organization bereft of support.  Voting with their feet as it were.

Like I said I would look not to government or buisness structures per se...but more to organisations like the Red Cross, and the Freinds of the Red Cross.  Or at volunteer organisations like Freinds of XYZ school District (larger ones, who may have several schools to cover).  Money is accounted for, the needs met and the users kept abreast of things, and allowed feedback as approriate through a set conduit.

Having been on various boards, I know the amount of ad hoc user feedback I received, and if I didn't control it I became overwhelmed in the small stuff. Providing a conduit, usually meant that the concerns and ideas I came across were legitimate, and worth pursuing.  It meant that they wanted to make a little effort to make sure they could get their problem across.  Filtering the perpetual "I'm an ideas man, but I really suck at actually doing anything" type of person out is most approriate, leaving resources available to focus on real issues.

As for elitism or power tripping, well I can always GM.... MUHWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Yes and I would like some kudos for complaining as well if elSpike gets them. And for years of harassing woof... YEARS I TELL YOU!

There there Jhael.. there there...

Some of you know me, and realize I don't post on 'political' threads much. Others will just have to see me as an average RPOL user. In my humble opinion, FoRPOL was set up by individuals to help RPOL. These individuals own the entire thing, although they are open-minded enough to allow others input. Please realize this, and perhaps you will see that the only thing you need worry about is whether the money goes to RPOL. This may be hard to regulate, but I trust Shannara implicitly, and know it will go to the proper place. How to ensure others have proof of this is problematical, unless you count the law, which means she may be charged with fraud, embezzlement, and worse if it doesn't. Please, just drop the whole thing. There are posts showing how much coms in, and goes out, so unless someone donates & it doesn't show up, there is no way to hide it. It is up to the donating individual to check, and if this is done, every time, then there is no way to steal. That's the best I can come up with, but it seems workable. As far as meetings, public input is fine in one forum, while descions are made in another.

1) This is a great site. Of which, I would like to see be around for a long time.

2) Woof and associates, work hard to keep everything running smoothly.

3) It is Woof’s baby…if he trusts those that are in place, so do I. (Seeing that I know some of the persons involved personally, this is not a concern for me)

4) Every penny is logged. Either by Paypal or a reply email that the money was received. Money in money out…it is that simple. The checks on the system are in place…Woof needs only look over the numbers to see if anything is out of whack. And to this I would like to add, he is the only one who would have any real reason to double-check (see point 3, save checking on your own donation).

5) There is no reason to not donate to this cause as if it were any other non-profit cause. I understand the reasons behind the debate, but I believe that the points are moot. It is no different than donating money to a local school.

6) But if it eases the mind, have a second party check on the donations. Reviewing the Paypal reports and copied on reply emails. It would not have to be anything complicated, another volunteer would work just fine.

In short, don’t send cash (I never would, as it can be lost in the mail and is difficult to track). Paypal is in place to make all parties accountable and a check can be traced back to the person who endorsed it (or canceled if lost in the mail). If you doubt Woof’s judgment in volunteer members, than donate a small amount and see if the system works as proposed.

Arkwell:)

I want everyone to realize that the concerns I posted in this messagebase were hypothetical.  </b>They were in no way to be considered based on fact.</b>  JohnB, BigBadRon and Shannara are very trustworthy individuals and should be appreciated for their hard work and efforts to make this group and their tasks a success.

I believe there is a conflict of interest... but I can abide by what the majority of voices have posted.  I don't think the conflict of interest lies in the financial concerns... but more in the time-management concerns.  Maybe I am just over-exagurrating the matter.

I believe the public should still have at least the opportunity to sit in on the meetings when it is discussed what to do with the funds taken (not necessarily meetings about finding replacement board members).  However, no one seems to have a concern about that but me, so again... I concede the concern.

At any rate, I'm not going to make an issue about it anymore.  I just wanted everyone to know that I'm not trying to crucify anybody and that I have no hard feelings over my resignation of my position on the FoRPoL board.  Everything is water under the bridge.

Thank you, dollsteak.  I appreciate the clarification, and I'm sorry for my over-emotional responses.

And from me too.  Thank you dollsteak.