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03:34, 19th March 2024 (GMT+0)

FoRPoL - A Clarification.

Posted by JohnB
JohnB
GM, 29 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 19:28
  • msg #1

FoRPoL - A Clarification

 There has been some concern that  we have formed a clique in the way that F-RPoL  has  been formed and founded.

This concern seems to be with the formal organisation we have formed for collecting your donations and passing them onto Jase, and that is the part people seem to  be concerned about.  I  am Chair of the group, Shannara is Treasurer and BBR is  acting as Secretary.  We  are actively looking for another member in the US to act as a scrutiniser and second signatory for the account.  However - this position is  not up  for election -  we  will approach the people  we are interested in working with.  We  do this  for one main  reason - the Paypal and bank accounts  we use  are  secured on Mine and Shannara's  credit cards, IRS number, and credit record.  Neither of us  are  prepared to  trust those to  someone  we may not  have full confidence in.  However - it  will be  someone  who  we  know and  trust as a scrutiniser -  who  will make sure  we  do  what  we say.

We  have imposed  some strict rules on the way we  deal  with the donations and they can be found at http://www.hclub.fsnet.co.uk/F-RPOL/   which is the web site  address we published some days ago informing you of our  existence and  how  we intended to operate.

Later -  we will be  looking for  people in other countries and area to  work  with us to  open more local donation centres around the world, to  make it  easier  to  donate in your local currency.


We do not hold  any special influence within RPoL - all we are doing is  collecting the funds and passing them on.  We  have exactly the same amount of  power and influence we have always  had.

All three of us  have, however,  been members of a special group  who have  been acting as a sounding board for Woof.  Other members include Dollsteak, Ironsite, ElSpike and a number of  other people  you may or  may not  be familiar  with.

--------

Now -  There have  been complaints that  we have  been  Cliquey -  and are  acting to  gain  more influence in RPoL.  That I  deny  wholeheartedly -  BUT I  will not  let that besmirch  my  reputation here.

Its  down to  you  folks -    Do  YOU  want  us  to  run F-RPoL as a way of collecting funds, or not?  If there is  someone  else out there  who  wants to  volunteer to  come up with a plan to  do  this -  then We will gladly  hand things over to them -  so long as they  can convince  Woof that their  plans are  secure and workable.

However, if  you  want Shannara, BBR and I to run it -  then  we will do it in OUR  way -  The way that  maintains the security of  out credit backgrounds and  also  provides  security  for your  donations.  A  way that will let us  answer to the IRS  and the British banking system if  we have to.

Your choice folks.  Do  we  carry on?  Do  we  let it  all fold and  return donations?  Or  is there another VOLUNTEER  to  do the dirty work and get hassled at the same time?
despyzer
member, 2 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 21:10
  • msg #2

Re: FoRPoL - A Clarification

Are you asking for a response? If so, I have one.

I have no problem with the three of you (and whoever else is involved) doing Woof and company this service. People suggested that they wanted something like this to happen and you guys have obviously stepped up to bat to make it happen. Good for you! I know I wasn't willing to do it, and I have a feeling that many of the naysayers here weren't willing to do it either.

As for special influence... maybe I'm an incredible optimist, but what influence could you possibly gain through all of this? Better dice rolls? An extra game to GM? I find the entire idea that you guys could gain any influence over RPOL so that it would have any effect on me whatsoever to be a bit ridiculuos.

My suggestion to you guys is put all that crap behind you and carry on. No matter what you do there are going to be people casting aspersions on your motives and doubting your integrity. Your only other alternative is to do nothing at all, and where's the fun and sense of achievement in that?
RobinoHeat
member, 1 post
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 21:14
  • msg #3

Re: FoRPoL - A Clarification

You get better dice rolls? I want in - Lord knows I need better dice rolls on here... :)
Razewun
member, 4 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 21:25
  • msg #4

Re: FoRPoL - A Clarification

I have to agree with Despyzer.   You guys did step up and do something.  As far as I am concerned the whingers are typical non-events.  Always long on the gums, and always short on the actions.

People are here to gameplay, some are prepared to put some real effort to create a gaming environment.  Some, want the "position" it might imply, but really cannot do anything. Presumably because of a lack of skills, ability to stick at something that equates to effort, and just plain old immaturity.  Probably also a bad case of insecurity too.

Continue the good work, you will find team players.  Forget the naysayers.
Shannara
GM, 23 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 23:01
  • msg #5

Commentary Welcome

Thank you.  Personally, I appreciate the support very much.  (And I'm only speaking as a person, NOT in any official capacity.)

I can assure you that there aren't any good dice rolls attached to this --  Generally, my characters only roll high when they need low.  I've offered bribes to make the dice roller like me, all to no avail.

Sad, because Woof could probably get enough $$ to support the site for about 10 years if he accepted the bribes from everyone the dice roller seems to hate. ;)

And yes, any responses are welcome.  Negatives as well as ones of support.  I 'volunteered' to open the paypal account, and a bank account, and it is secured with my personal credit card, and the bank account is accountable to my Tax ID number.  That was the only way to open the accounts, and I'm more than happy to provide copies of every scrap of documentation to anyone/everyone who would care to see it (minus, of course, information such as the credit card number and expiration date).  Johnb volunteered to open a UK bank account for Friends of RPOL, and to do that we had to have officers and meetings and the like.

SO -- anyone who thinks that I'm going to run off with the donations that reach the paypal account or use them improperly, feel free to speak up.  I'll be happy to account for each and every penny, and will publish lists of donors on a monthly basis.  The money will stay in the account untouched until woof directs me to transfer it to him or to distribute it in payment to the server host.

Any of you that do think I'm not trustworthy, feel free to post it.  You should know to whom you're entrusting your donations (and if it goes to friends of rpol via paypal, that's me right now until there's a secondary who I'm willing to trust with my credit card number -- dollsteak has already declined).

And let me confess my terrible sin  -- I've also offered -- tentatively -- to help with setting up a non-profit to take over playbyweb so that it doesn't close in June.  Woof doesn't seem to share the site vs. site animosity.  I don't have any love for the admin of PBW, but it was a good site and I had some good times there, and I'd like to see it survive without the ego conflicts that contributed to the mass exodus.  I'd also like -- if it does get turned over to a non-profit -- to see if woof is still interested in the sister-site idea.

So .... there it is.  Anyone who thinks that makes me a traitor, a terrible, morally bankrupt person, or something even worse, and therefore my help with this cause isn't wanted, this is your chance to speak up.

I offered to help because I love this site, I love to roleplay, and I love what woof's done here.  If someone else wants the job, the accountability, etc., the responsibility of updating the donations -- give a yell.

BTW - I have been updating the list of donations received as soon as I have been notified of receipt.  I have made the tread (Treasurer Information) public so that it can be read by all.
dollsteak
member, 2 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 23:30
  • msg #6

Re: Commentary Welcome

Since the floor has been opened, let me point out just who it was that opened this can of worms.... me.

You can see I'm not Secretary anymore.  I denied becoming part of this group once I looked at it closer in working format.  I've given John the opportunity to change it, or find someone to replace me.  His idea of changing it is "Take it over in our place, or we'll do it like we want."

Here are the conflicts:

John is Chairman.  This is probably the most powerful position of any group, and demands attention to details.  John is also heading the "save PBW" attempts.  If he does both, his attention will be split.  I see that as a conflict of interest.

Shannara is Treasurer... voted in by three other people.  Have any of you been given the opportunity to express who you trust with your money?  And what about Shannara's replacement, will you be given the opportunity to chose them?  The answer is no.

Another issue... Shannara is handling all the funds from UK and America.  If she is also going to be helping with the "Save PBW" is she going to be Treasurer there besides?  Does anyone else see a problem with a bunch of money donated to our site getting shuffled off to someone who might be saving up money for the other site too?  Will she decide at one point or another to borrow from one to lend to the other?  And if so, why is it her decision?  Do you see the conflict of interest?

All positions of this FoRPoL group are selected by the current board members.  None of you will be given the opportunity for representation.  They will decide what to do with your money without consulting you.  They will decide who gets to help woof with these special projects, none of you.  Why are they special?  Because they formed this clique, they beat you to it.

I expressed concern that this was supposed to be a group by the Community for the Community, but now it's a group by a 4 people, for 4 people... well, 3 now.  They say it's only for funding, at the same time they are looking for volunteers to help with writing FAQs, and they've adopted the Portrait Gallery Functions as part of their definition.  Woof also stated that should he ever lose interest in the site, it will be handed over to this FoRPoL group most likely.  So it's not just about the money, folks.  That's just the start.

Don't get me wrong.  I admire BBR, John and Shannara for their selflessness in giving themselves to this project.  I think they're great people and I'd bend over backwards for them all.  I just don't appreciate the way it's set up.  All I asked for was to give more power to the people... to allow public voice at votes and such.  To allow the people more ability to choose who heads up FoRPoL.  And what I got in response was "Unless you replace us, we're going to do it our way."

So there's the other side of the story.  Let the feelings fly.
JohnB
GM, 31 posts
Sat 28 Sep 2002
at 23:55
  • msg #7

Re: Commentary Welcome

Doll?  what  power  do you  want to  give to the people?  There isn't  any power there!  We  don't  get  to  choose  who  helps  woof  with projects -  Woof  does.  :)

I am  also  sure that if  you started another group  designed to get volunteers to help RPoL -  I  won't  object.  All you  need to  do is the ground work.  However, I  would suggest that you talk to Woof first,  to see what he thinks of the idea.

If you want to  do the financial stuff with your Tax ID too, then fine. You wanna  put the ground work in thats fine.

Lets see YOU in action rather than talking us down.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:55, Sat 28 Sept 2002.
Shannara
GM, 24 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 00:03
  • msg #8

Re: Commentary Welcome

Allow me to address the points that refer to me, questioning my character, my integrity, and my honesty -- with the irrelevant ones (based on the answers to the others)unanswered.

1) Shannara is handling all the funds from UK and America. Actually, I'm handling paypay funds and checks sent in to the US address.

2) If she is also going to be helping with the "Save PBW" is she going to be Treasurer there besides? No.

3) Will she decide at one point or another to borrow from one to lend to the other?  No.

Do you believe me?  That's your decision.  If you think that I'm that dishonest, not to mention criminal, then please ... make your opinion known.

If anyone else wants to volunteer their credit card and tax id number to open a paypal/bank account, you have my blessing.

And if anyone wants their donation back, then post here and I'll see to it.  I'll even cover the amount that paypal subtracted for the transaction out of my own pocket so that 100% of the donation is refunded.
Hube
GM, 1 post
the quiet guy in the back
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 00:48
  • msg #9

Re: Commentary Welcome

Just so that you know and because I think I should let you know. I know that both Shannara and JohnB have been here for a long time and for the record I trust them both. They did do this out of the goodness of their hearts, they are taking the responsibility by using their bank accounts and credit cards to secure the money.

On the other hand? Why should they now turns over their credit card numbers and account numbers to anyone else, they should not. If someone else was to take over then they would then need to supply there own accounts and take the risk that these two people have already taken. Those that are willing to take the risk are naturally going to be the ones that have the power.

Do I think they will run off with anyone's money or use it in a way that is wrong? Well, as long as it is used for something to do with RPoL, well then it is used for the purpose for which it was donated. And knowing how much the board cares about this site, as much as I do myself if not more, I highly doubt that there will be anything going on that the populace of RPoL would not agree with.

JohnB and Shannara please continue to do what you have been trying to do and if there is any way in which I can help please do not hesitate to ask and I will help if it is within my power to do so.
dollsteak
member, 3 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 01:06
  • msg #10

Re: Commentary Welcome

This circular reasoning gets us no where.  I tell you the shortcomings, and again your answer is, "Make your own group then," rather than try to make the existing group better.  John, you said I was what you were looking for because I was so good at scrutinizing, and when I scrutinize your group, you don't want to do anything about it.

Shannara, my statements were not meant to throw dirt or to doubt your integrity.  I trust you implicitly.  But my point is that it is not up to three people to make those decisions for everyone unless those three people were chosen by everyone.

Whatever.  I've said my piece.
Shannara
GM, 25 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 01:48
  • msg #11

Where's the Majority?

My mistake.  Suggesting that I'd 'borrow' from funds entrusted to me wasn't meant as a slur on my character or integrity.  I don't know WHERE I could have gotten such an idea.

The people DO get a vote - they vote by choosing to participate or not.

If you don't trust me, don't donate via the paypal account frpol@shannararose.com.  Wait until someone you trust sets up a better system, or wait until woof does it himself. Or, yes, make one of your own.

Kinda like I won't let anyone else have my credit card info or bank account info unless they're someone I trust, no matter who votes that I should.

It's as simple as that.

And this is a vote -- if anyone here believes that I would allow or participate in the distribution of donated funds for ANY reason save the support of rpol, then I'll be happy to 1) refund their donation and/or 2) transfer them to whoever wants the hassle and sets up the alternate system.

The floor's open.  Anyone who wants to speak, request access and I'll get you added as soon as I see the request. -- At least until woof reads this and decides that he doesn't need the headache either.

Those who already have requested access, please accept my invitation to post your thoughts on the matter.

For those of you who have offered a vote of confidence, I thank you, and can only say that any funds that have been sent to me will either be the first of 1) refunded to the donor upon their request, or 2) sent to woof or his designated representative as he chooses.

BTW -- woof made the decision to open this board up as a 'game' with request to access needed to post.  So ... there is no majority of users here -- just a few people who want to help by donating their time, ideas, or money.

Oh - and there is no power.  We have no say over how the money is spent - only opinions, which we are as free to post to woof as anyone else.

One more thing - yes, woof did say that in the highly unlikely event that he loses interest in RPOL, he would consider turning it over to Friends of RPOL.  I got the impression that he considers that his losing interest is about as likely as ice-skating in the Sahara.  I think it was more an assurance to us that he wouldn't be pulling a Jim.  In no way was/is it any kind of power play.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:48, Sun 29 Sept 2002.
Hube
GM, 2 posts
the quiet guy in the back
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 01:50
  • msg #12

Re: Where's the Majority?

Sorry I used the word Power in that way Shannara. It was not meant to say that anyone here actually has any power over RPoL or the use of the money that is donated. We know that only the admins on RPoL makes those decisions. It was only a figure of speech, as it were.
dollsteak
member, 4 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 02:10
  • msg #13

Re: Where's the Majority?

So what's the point in voicing opinions or concerns when you're just going to attack those who give it?
despyzer
member, 3 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 02:12
  • msg #14

Re: Where's the Majority?

We seem to have one major issue at play here... trust. Whom can I trust with my donation? Whom can I trust to best represent my interests here at RPOL? Etcetera. Personally, seeing I have never actually met any of you, I can't say that I have an exceeding amount of trust in any of you. I have a reasonable amount of faith that any donation I might wish to send in will be used for the purposes intended, but I have no assurance and probably won't have any regardless of who is running this thing. I would hate to have the burden of a vote myself because I don't know anything about any of you people. I think I have some knowledge of Dollsteak because of a few conversations we have had on the Gotcha Debates, but he could be lying for all I really know (no offense, Doll). Why would I be interested in voting out ambitious people who have already gone the extra mile and vote in people that haven't proven anything to me?

I know I was all over the place with this one, but I hope someone can figure out my point.
Shannara
GM, 26 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 02:13
  • msg #15

Re: Where's the Majority?

I'm sorry, Hube.  I wasn't making a dig at you, honest.

I thank you for your post, and for your words.

I'm rather upset right now, and am not, perhaps, considering my posts as well as I should.
dollsteak
member, 5 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 02:22
  • msg #16

Re: Where's the Majority?

I don't know why you're upset, Shannara.  I am looking at this objectively, not personally.  I am pointing out the flaws as they exist in the system, not necessarily directed at any one person.  You and JohnB are identified because of your shared interest with the "Save PBW" efforts.  But I could have just as easily substituted your name with Player X and Player Y.  The argument would remain.

It is not a personal issue to me.  That's why I jumped from the group so easily.  I know your intents are noble and you're trying to do what you think is right.  And I'm doing what I think is right by taking a stand against something that will most likely end up being a good-ole-boy network in the end.

Yes, you might not be so apt to do such bad things... and even if anyone thought so, they probably wouldn't say their thoughts aloud.  They'd simply not donate.  But can you say your replacement is going to be as trustworthy as you?  Don't you think it'd be a good idea to set this system up with some sort of integrity check or at least give the public a chance at removing someone from the position if they start acting all flaky?

Don't take my concerns personally.  I am only pointing out the flaws in the existing system in hopes that you, John and BBR fix them.  So far, all I see is that you guys are getting pissed off at me and aren't listening to my concerns at all because you're too busy defending your honors.  It isn't about you or your honor.  It's about the system.

Bah..... why do I bother.  I'll probably loose three good players from even voicing my concerns.
Ari
member, 1 post
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 02:30
  • msg #17

A humble opinion...

I was happy to see that a few people had taken it upon themselves to create a system for which those who wish to support this gaming site can do so.  And, it even made me happier that three of the people who created F-RPoL are people I consider friends, people I would trust with anything of mine.  Now I find myself saddened to see that there has been a disruption to the unity that created F-RPoL.

As a person who very rarely frequented the message boards at “that other site” and even less frequently visits the general message boards here at RPoL, I had to think long and hard before I put my two cents in to the mix.  From what I’ve read, dollsteak is concerned that “the RPoL community” isn’t getting a say in the direction of F-RPoL.  Well, whenever a new organization/club is created, those people who expended the time, energy and initiative are always the people who control the organization/club at least in the initial stages.  It is their “baby”, for lack of a better word, and their responsibility to see that it grows and performs to their expectations.  Do I think that those people in charge should make all the decisions without considering what the general membership thinks?  Absolutely not!  However, do I think that, in a web-based community, it is feasible to get input from ALL of the members?  Again…absolutely not!

I hate to say it but, in all honestly, I really doubt that the majority of RPoL members care who runs F-RPoL as long as money donated for the good of the community goes to support the community’s needs.  If this was a true democracy, where we all got a vote, I doubt that anything would ever be decided.  In my opinion, the majority of the members are people much like myself, who are just happy to play their games here at a site that works well, with an administrator (Woof) who seemingly puts in an inordinate amount of his personal time to make improvements and work on the ‘little things’ that set this site apart from the others.

For those of us who are the “silent majority”, I would like to thank John, Ron, Shannara and, yes, dollsteak for taking it upon themselves to make it possible for the individual members of this community to support the community.  We don’t always agree with each other, and that’s not a bad thing, but we need to remember that we all are here for the same reason…to enjoy our games and the friends we have made.  Dollsteak had a point, no one got to vote on whom got what position within F-RPoL.  My response to that is … Who Cares?  No one else took the initiative and, in my opinion, the people who take the initiative to create the group are the people who are responsible to see that the group thrives.
dollsteak
member, 6 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 02:34
  • msg #18

Re: A humble opinion...

If you think that was my point, then you weren't listening either.
Hube
GM, 3 posts
the quiet guy in the back
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 04:45
  • msg #19

Re: A humble opinion...

Ok,

I went back up to the top of the page and re-read dollsteak's concerns. For better or worse they could by some be considered valid by some so I suppose that there should be some type of answer given for those that may also see them as concerns.

The first that there appears to be a conflict of interest if for John being the Chairman and also heading up the "Save PBW" attempt. Well, if PBW and RPoL were competitors for paying customers, yes there would be a conflict of interest here. Yes they are asking for money from the community, but it is not required in order to play here. It is voluntary donations that are asked for. There would be a conflict in my mind if John were to promote one site over the other, thus stealing customers for his own interests. But there are no customers to steal. Some people play at RPoL, some play at PBW and some at both. I personally join a game because of the game. I really don't care what sight it is on. I am equally interested in seeing both sights prosper myself. The reason for this is that I know some GM's have a preference of one site over another. I for instance would rather GM a game on RPoL. But as a player I play on whatever site the game is. This is just one of four such places that I go to RP. For all of these reasons I do not see much of a conflict, none at all actually.

The second concern is that Shannara is the Treasurer voted in by three people and that the general populace of RPoL had no say in the decision. Well, those three people must have some measure of trust in Shannara to trust her with the money. It takes quite a bit to earn someone's trust when you really have no idea who they are. I do not think those three people would have named her treasurer if Shannara had not earned that trust. This is not a job that could just be thrown up for the general populous to apply for or vote on. Maybe in the rest of the world it could be done that way, but this is an Internet community where people rarely know who they are really talking to. It must be done based on a different set of rules. Do I know Shannara well enough to trust her? Personally I do not, but I know she has been around a long time and that she has gained a measure of trust from the admins of RPoL and based on that information I can trust her to do as she says she will do. Therefore I believe that the money will only be used what it was donated for, to keep this sight from disappearing. The same answers I would give for a replacement if that should ever become a necessity. It must be someone that the board will trust to handle the money.

Whether or not Shannara also helps with the "Save PBW" fund, the question on a conflict of interest can be answered by both of the above answers.

On the subject of positions on the board being selected by the current members of said board; This also falls to a matter of trust, again, trust that is not easily earned when dealing with people that you do not really know. We have to trust that those on the current board choose people that have earned their trust and therefore deserve my trust. From what I can see by looking over all the information, anyone is welcome to help, but I would not just trust anyone that spoke up to just take over control of a regional account. Do I see this as some form of clique? No, or that would mean that I think I am part of another clique here at RPoL that does not really exist except in the minds of a few.

It was mentioned that more power should be given to the RPoL community. Anyone that wants to express a concern about what is going on or to ask questions about what is going on is free to do so. That is what this forum was set up for. Anyone that wishes to express a view need only request access and it will be granted. If the "Board" did not want to listen to the views and concerns of the community this forum would not be here. Are they going to put things up to a general vote? I for one hope that they don't. As was stated in a previous post, I don't think that most people have any idea what is going on or for that matter really care as long as they get to play their games. They give money out of the goodness of their hearts because they really care for this place and want it to continue. They must believe that the money will be put to the use for which it was given. The only way most will know if the "Board" can be trusted is to see what they do. I find it hard to believe that this endeavor will last if those in charge prove untrustworthy. Which I seriously doubt will happen. I know that these people care for RPoL and for our mutual love of Role-Playing as much as I do.

Another point is that the money donated will be used for what the "Board" wants. The only person that will make decisions about where the money goes is the Admins of RPoL. It is only being taken care of by FoRPoL to take some of the weight off of said admins.

I see this as not a group of 4 people looking out for the interests of them selves, but a group of people that are looking out for the interests of us all. Those interests being that of making sure that RPoL is around for a long, long time. And I think the likelihood of Woof walking away from this thing and handing it over to FoRPoL are as likely as, like Shannara stated above, a snowball's chance in hell.

After looking over this I have decided that it may look like I am trying to continue the argument, but really I am not. What Dollsteak wanted was to voice his concerns about what he felt was wrong with FoRPoL and have someone try to address them. All I wanted to do was address those concerns as a person that is currently not a member of the "Board", as an outsider looking in.
dollsteak
member, 7 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 05:02
  • msg #20

Re: A humble opinion...

Thank you, Hube.  Finally, an objective opposing post with a good deal of thought and not all the emotion behind it.  You make some excellent points.  But there are two things you are overlooking.

1) If there are meetings, they are only going to be inviting board members (unless this gets changed).  Any concerns mentioned in these meetings will be addressed only by the board members.  There is no promise of voicing concerns over issues brought up at the meetings beforehand for the public to add their opinions.  Any voting on the issues happens at those meetings.  So just because you have your say now on this issue doesn't mean it will always be offered to you.

2) The only reason this messagebase exists ... offering you the chance to voice your opinion on the subject... is because I made a stink about it in Group 8 messagebases, then resigned.  Had I not done that, none of these issues would have even been made public.  As a matter of fact, I wasn't even going to say anything until Shannara opened the floor.  That was an invite to allow me to make my concerns public.  If they are going to tell you some people have concerns, they should at least make it clear what the concerns properly were.  Given the opportunity, I did that for them.  Everyone else would have remained in blissful ignorance of the potential problems had I just kept my opinions to myself, had I just nodded in silence and remained on the ivory tower.  Yes, John addressed that there were concerns, but just how specific was he?  Re-read his opening post and then ask yourself again... is that the extent of detail you can expect about future concerns?  If that's the case, wouldn't you benefit more greatly by given the opportunity to be present at these meetings?
Hube
GM, 4 posts
the quiet guy in the back
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 06:00
  • msg #21

Re: A humble opinion...

Well then, The best compromise would be to have a fifth member who's only responsibility would be to know the views and concerns of the RPoL community as posted in this forum and make sure those concerns are addressed. I don't think it would be very hard as I don't see many concerns coming up, but it would make sure that the little people did have a small voice.
Mace_Windex
member, 5 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 06:06
  • msg #22

Re: A humble opinion...

I don't doubt anyones integrity, because no one has given me a reason to.

(That includes you, dollsteak)

From what I see, this site is much better than PbW (Not a flame, just what I think is true).  Woof can't handle everything all the time, so I think it's good that people have stepped up ready to help woof.

I also wouldn't want to see us torn apart because of something like this.  Most of us have become friends since coming from PbW.  We left that site, but did we fall apart?  No.  We joined together on this site.

(And now I'm rambling...)
TomC1060
member, 1 post
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 06:20
  • msg #23

Re: A humble opinion...

As a player here I'd just like to remind everyone of something. When RPOL went down and we were a stuck with no games, Woof and Elspike busted there ass:
A)Getting RPOL back up and running quickly.
B)Keeping all of us informed as to what was happening.
Did they do this because they had to, no I think not, they showed me dedication above and beyond what they needed to do. If they trust the people collecting the money to do the right thing then that is good enough for me.
skyth
member, 1 post
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 06:44
  • msg #24

Re: A humble opinion...

Let me see if I got this right. People can send in money to help pay for the fees that come with keeping this site up. These three people have stepped up and set up a way for the players to help Jase pay for it this. That is all they are doing.

Will they have any power or control in RPOL? No. Because there is nothing to gain power or control over. They are just money collectors for Jase. There is nothing they can gain from helping that will grant them anything special. OH NO! they may get a special tag or something on their name. OH GOD NO!!!! :P

Should the people who send in money have a say in anything? So long as we know our money is getting used to pay the bills to keep RPOL up that should be good enough. Plus there really is nothing to vote on really. If the players have an idea for the site there is already a way to voice that opinion. What is there to vote on? New features? I think Woof is doing just fine deciding what should be added.

As far as the trust thing goes. If you don't trust them do not send any money. Simple as that. I know Shan very well and I know of John and I trust them more then most of the people I deal with face to face.

As for the titles. Well who gives a rats arse what they call their positions. If John wants to give himself a title like "GOD OF MONEY" who cares? It is not like they are a corp or a business where titles mean something.

As for the PBW stuff. If they want to help keep it up and running that is cool. I play over there as well as here. There is no conflict of interest as far as them helping with the other site goes. This is not a business where you are competting with eachother for a playerbase.

As for meetings. Well what are they going to do? Talk about how much money they got. They can make a public post about how much money they have gained through donations. What issues do the people need to address? none really. Hell Jase could scan in a copy of paid bills so those of you who have a lack of trust can see that his bills were paid for this site. I don't see any need for players to have a meeting with those who we send our money to.

Frankly I support them in what they are doing. I do not see any of the other people here getting up and making a way to support this place.

Again if you do not feel you can trust them, don't send them any money. It is that simple. It is stupid to piss and moan over something this simple. They will not have any power or control over anything other then the money that is sent to them. I do not think any of them are stupid enough to try and muck with a lot of people and have the IRS come down on them.
dollsteak
member, 9 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 07:13
  • msg #25

Re: A humble opinion...

Think it's no big deal to be 'pissing and moaning' about?

Fine.  I'll drop the matter if John agrees to make the meetings available to the public.  Hell, that's all I'm asking for anyway.  Is there any reason why the public shouldn't be allowed to participate?

Ah-hah... there is the bottom-line question.  Is there any reason why the public is left out?
This message was last edited by the player at 07:13, Sun 29 Sept 2002.
dollsteak
member, 10 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 06:59
  • msg #26

Re: A humble opinion...

How many of you are shareholders of a company?

Each of the GMs here, each of your individual actions put forth to make a great game essentially qualifies you as a shareholder of RPOL.  Granted, we're not making money here, that's why they aren't legimate shares.  That's why you're not charging for your games, and players aren't paying to play.  But as shareholders, you should be given the right to monitor freely the business affairs of the company.

Woof addresses us quite well from the programming stand-point.  We voice our concerns on public messagebases, and he responds with "It's done".  But then woof doesn't go and have private meetings either.  What is the need for privacy?  They're not giving out account numbers in the meeting.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:59, Sun 29 Sept 2002.
skyth
member, 2 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 07:32
  • msg #27

Re: A humble opinion...

I will agree. there is no real need to make it private because nothing important will be put there like account numbers, CC numbers, etc. Honestly they don't really need to meet. It is not like they are making decisions based on how RPOL is run or what is done to it. They can just converse via an IM and tell each other the monthly total of donations and send the info to Jase so he knows how much he has to pay the bills.

As for the public being left out. Well there is nothing to leave them out of. I think Shan already said she was going to post how much was donated like every month or every quarter. So there really is no need for meetings at all, but if they want to meet about adding more people to help collect money the should be able to have it in private.

That way no chance of people getting their feelings hurt or the friend of this guy bombarding them with messages saying that such and such is not this way or that way and they would be good for this. After the meeting they can make things public if they added someone to help them.

Shareholders? 95% of the people here don't do anything to further RPOL. They play here for free on the dime of others. Just because someone is a DM/GM does not make them a shareholder of any sort. If you give some money then you have a vested interest in the future of RPOL and making sure it is around for some time. So if anything only those who flip over some cash should have access to any sort of information that is done behind the scenes.
dollsteak
member, 11 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 07:35
  • msg #28

Re: A humble opinion...

Don't know if I agree with that.  The money is voluntary, and it's not to buy a higher status.  To me, anyone who dedicates their attention to making a good game is donating to the site.
bigbadron
GM, 18 posts
He's big, he's bad, but
most of all, he's Ron...
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 08:03
  • msg #29

Re: A humble opinion...

Actually Dollsteak there IS a good reason to limit the number of people at a meeting.  How much would be decided if 200 people were in a chat room discussing stuff?  How easy would it be to keep track of what was being said?

Consider this:  you work for a company.  Do you get invited to board meetings?
Do you get a vote in who is on the board?  No to both I would imagine, unless it's a very small company.

You were quite happy with the set up, you were one of the people who voted on the positions of Treasurer and Chairman, until some people mentioned they would still be supporting PbW.  True, I'm not happy with Jim myself, but if other people want to deal with him, then I couldn't stop it, and I'm glad John and Shannara were honest enough to tell us about the Save PbW idea.
woof
GM, 6 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 09:30
  • msg #30

A lot of miscellaneous paragraphs

Do it myself Shannara?  My god, tell me you are kidding!  Are you insane!?  Why'd I want to redo all the bloody hard work you lot have already done?  This is like the portraits, a burden I'm very happy and grateful not to know.

I said I'd turn RPoL over to FoRPoL after it was setup, so it can't be said that was any motivation for setting up FoRPoL.  You should also question why I chose FoRPoL as the body to hand it over to, and that's because I believe the members are trustworthy and take the interests of the RPoL users to heart.  Incorrectly or not I also view IronSite, elSpike and Jhael non-active members of FoRPoL, and I know each of them personally.

Dollsteak, unless you don't want the job any longer you're still doing the portraits.  I believe the rolls of FAQ writers, portrait editor etc were added to the list as the people that did those jobs were members of FoRPoL.  In hindsight it probably would be best to leave them separate.

The money from donations goes to reducing the money I have to spend on keeping RPoL operational; ie hosting costs.  If it's ever to be spent on anything different then I would demand that each and every donator be contacted for their approval.

As for a clique group... I guess there is one, in so far that you could label any group with limited membership as a clique group.  The FoRPoL members clique group... whoopty dee...!  I guess there's a RPoL donators clique group too... and a RPoL members clique group!

Unfortunately by using the site you imply trust in me.  You trust I won't hand out your e-mail address, you trust I won't try to run any malicious code, you trust the site will still be here tomorrow, and hopefully you trust who I trust.

There are going to be holes that can be picked in any system can be thought up (unless you want to start paying someone more than we're collecting).  In the end nobody is forcing anyone to use the donation system setup by FoRPoL.  Nobody is forcing people to make a donation, and if they do they can suggest an alternative method to get the money to myself/my hosting provider.

I think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect the members of FoRPoL not to have interests with any other roleplay related site out there.  The fact it's PbW (rather than say Namshaske and 'The Pork') does make it a bitter pill to swallow, but I believe it also speaks volumes for our volunteer's personalities; they're willing to help save the site of a person they (to varying degrees) dislike because they want to help the roleplay users and the RP community.

I don't see any conflicts of interest.  Of course peoples times are going to be split, but sleep, work, rest, play, cooking, cleaning, gardening, drinking etc all split up our time.  All I expect is for the members to dedicate the time that is needed to run FoRPoL.  There's no way I or anyone else can demand they not spend any time on Project Y or spend more time on FoRPoL than they do on Project Y (as long as Project Y isn't "The total destruction of RPoL" of course...)

To name names, John's even went to the extent of emailing Jim and myself about a friendly competition for short stories.  This idea involved John creating a web site, advertising and (again John) fronting the cash for the winner (it involved me saying "sounds good").  Sounds like someone who is a RP fanatic and (possibly) bites off more than he can chew rather than anything more sinister.

If the public thinks someone within RoRPoL is acting 'flaky' then I would expect them to contact me along with the other FoRPoL members.  If the FoRPoL group doesn't act then I certainly can and will.  If anything unusual happens with a single cent of a donation then I shall be investigating with my steel-cap shoes on.

We can't start having voting mechanism for FoRPoL members because then it becomes a popularity contest.  No matter what system is put forward I can guarantee that the members are going to be picked/approved by me.

As for inviting the general public to meetings... these meetings are supposed to finish?  If there was some way to make it view-only for the public it would be ok, but 50 people turning up to such a meeting would make it a disaster.  I believe (for whatever reason this game/forum was created) that this is the appropriate area for RPoL members to voice their concerns.  Logs of the meetings can be given, and already are.

It may seem harsh to say this, but I think everyone would do well to remember that RPoL is not a democracy, it is a totalitarian dictatorship.  You're just all fortunate that your overlord (i.e. me) created this site for you, cares about your opinions, your wants, your needs so that it seems like a democracy.  You're also fortunate that a group of RP fanatics that I trust have volunteered to start FoRPoL.

(TomC1060; it was more IronSite than elSpike, not that it really matters but IronSite should get the nod.)

Lastly; woot!  Hube prefers to GM on RPoL!


Love and kisses,

 - Your caring dictator
elSpike
GM, 14 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 11:19
  • msg #31

Re: A lot of miscellaneous paragraphs

Incorrectly or not I also view IronSite, elSpike and Jhael non-active members of FoRPoL, and I know each of them personally.

I am a member in the sense that I dontate and talk about rpol... thats about it...

(TomC1060; it was more IronSite than elSpike, not that it really matters but IronSite should get the nod.)

Yeah, my action was to complain to woof that the site was down. If that is busting my ass then I should take a holiday from complaining...

woof is right. Forpol is somewhere that people can donate to (people requested it.. rpol didnt ask for money) and that is good. Hey, I dont care... I can just pass woof some money in person.

beer and skittles time

elSpike (not EL Spike) >:o(
TomC1060
member, 2 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 15:16
  • msg #32

Re: A lot of miscellaneous paragraphs

I stand corrected. Woof and Ironsite busted their ass while ElSpike stood by complaining. There does that make everyone feel better? *evil grin*
elSpike
GM, 15 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 15:29
  • msg #33

Re: A lot of miscellaneous paragraphs

much better...

I prefer to be seen in my true complaining light (saves the disapointment later)
TomC1060
member, 3 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 16:21
  • msg #34

Re: A lot of miscellaneous paragraphs

Hey complaining is a dirty thankless job, I'm glad you volunteered it saves the rest of us from having to do it. ;) (Seriously though I haven't found anything here to complain about. From what I've seen if a problem gets pointed out one of the Admins is on it like a Pit Bull on raw meat. I'm really impressed with this site and the way it's handeled. I've said so privately and publicly.)
Razewun
member, 5 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2002
at 17:13
  • msg #35

I am a user

All I have done so far is use the RPoL site for gaming.  I am donating, because I like the site and have the opportunity to Role Play, and it is my way to say thank you for providing a place, and a help to keep it going.  I am also prepared to help out as a volunteer, my skills being more limiting than perhaps time.

To find a parralel in the real world is not to look at government structures, or corporate business entities, but volunteer grass roots organisations.  At the grass roots level, people see something that is good, and that they support with voluntary donations...only expecting to see the continuance of that good work.

Going up one level, there are local personailities, who make the effort to go a little further...organise a "garage sale"...collect food....do local projects to promote or enhance the organisation.  Eventually you do see a level, where some actual organization work is being done, by voluteers doing what they can to lighten the load.

As for the "upper" echelon, yes they do have meetings, set policies and try things out and do not need to run to the public over every matter.  Those folks have to be trusted, and will definately take the up feed of user and supporter concern into consideration.  Being smart people they will down feed information to the users.  If they are failing in that regard, the "little people" will move on leaving the organization bereft of support.  Voting with their feet as it were.

Like I said I would look not to government or buisness structures per se...but more to organisations like the Red Cross, and the Freinds of the Red Cross.  Or at volunteer organisations like Freinds of XYZ school District (larger ones, who may have several schools to cover).  Money is accounted for, the needs met and the users kept abreast of things, and allowed feedback as approriate through a set conduit.

Having been on various boards, I know the amount of ad hoc user feedback I received, and if I didn't control it I became overwhelmed in the small stuff. Providing a conduit, usually meant that the concerns and ideas I came across were legitimate, and worth pursuing.  It meant that they wanted to make a little effort to make sure they could get their problem across.  Filtering the perpetual "I'm an ideas man, but I really suck at actually doing anything" type of person out is most approriate, leaving resources available to focus on real issues.

As for elitism or power tripping, well I can always GM.... MUHWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Jhael
GM, 15 posts
Mon 30 Sep 2002
at 08:11
  • msg #36

Re: I am a user

Yes and I would like some kudos for complaining as well if elSpike gets them. And for years of harassing woof... YEARS I TELL YOU!
elSpike
GM, 16 posts
Mon 30 Sep 2002
at 08:14
  • msg #37

Re: I am a user

There there Jhael.. there there...
Brandon
member, 1 post
Mon 30 Sep 2002
at 20:15
  • msg #38

Re: I am a user

Some of you know me, and realize I don't post on 'political' threads much. Others will just have to see me as an average RPOL user. In my humble opinion, FoRPOL was set up by individuals to help RPOL. These individuals own the entire thing, although they are open-minded enough to allow others input. Please realize this, and perhaps you will see that the only thing you need worry about is whether the money goes to RPOL. This may be hard to regulate, but I trust Shannara implicitly, and know it will go to the proper place. How to ensure others have proof of this is problematical, unless you count the law, which means she may be charged with fraud, embezzlement, and worse if it doesn't. Please, just drop the whole thing. There are posts showing how much coms in, and goes out, so unless someone donates & it doesn't show up, there is no way to hide it. It is up to the donating individual to check, and if this is done, every time, then there is no way to steal. That's the best I can come up with, but it seems workable. As far as meetings, public input is fine in one forum, while descions are made in another.
Arkwell
member, 1 post
Tue 1 Oct 2002
at 02:09
  • msg #39

My two cents...

1) This is a great site. Of which, I would like to see be around for a long time.

2) Woof and associates, work hard to keep everything running smoothly.

3) It is Woof’s baby…if he trusts those that are in place, so do I. (Seeing that I know some of the persons involved personally, this is not a concern for me)

4) Every penny is logged. Either by Paypal or a reply email that the money was received. Money in money out…it is that simple. The checks on the system are in place…Woof needs only look over the numbers to see if anything is out of whack. And to this I would like to add, he is the only one who would have any real reason to double-check (see point 3, save checking on your own donation).

5) There is no reason to not donate to this cause as if it were any other non-profit cause. I understand the reasons behind the debate, but I believe that the points are moot. It is no different than donating money to a local school.

6) But if it eases the mind, have a second party check on the donations. Reviewing the Paypal reports and copied on reply emails. It would not have to be anything complicated, another volunteer would work just fine.

In short, don’t send cash (I never would, as it can be lost in the mail and is difficult to track). Paypal is in place to make all parties accountable and a check can be traced back to the person who endorsed it (or canceled if lost in the mail). If you doubt Woof’s judgment in volunteer members, than donate a small amount and see if the system works as proposed.

Arkwell:)
dollsteak
member, 12 posts
Wed 2 Oct 2002
at 04:13
  • msg #40

For the Record

I want everyone to realize that the concerns I posted in this messagebase were hypothetical.  </b>They were in no way to be considered based on fact.</b>  JohnB, BigBadRon and Shannara are very trustworthy individuals and should be appreciated for their hard work and efforts to make this group and their tasks a success.

I believe there is a conflict of interest... but I can abide by what the majority of voices have posted.  I don't think the conflict of interest lies in the financial concerns... but more in the time-management concerns.  Maybe I am just over-exagurrating the matter.

I believe the public should still have at least the opportunity to sit in on the meetings when it is discussed what to do with the funds taken (not necessarily meetings about finding replacement board members).  However, no one seems to have a concern about that but me, so again... I concede the concern.

At any rate, I'm not going to make an issue about it anymore.  I just wanted everyone to know that I'm not trying to crucify anybody and that I have no hard feelings over my resignation of my position on the FoRPoL board.  Everything is water under the bridge.
Shannara
GM, 28 posts
Treasurer
frpol@shannararose.com
Wed 2 Oct 2002
at 04:47
  • msg #41

Re: For the Record

Thank you, dollsteak.  I appreciate the clarification, and I'm sorry for my over-emotional responses.
JohnB
GM, 42 posts
Wed 2 Oct 2002
at 09:19
  • msg #42

Re: For the Record

And from me too.  Thank you dollsteak.
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