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This concern seems to be with the formal organisation we have formed for collecting your donations and passing them onto Jase, and that is the part people seem to be concerned about. I am Chair of the group, Shannara is Treasurer and BBR is acting as Secretary. We are actively looking for another member in the US to act as a scrutiniser and second signatory for the account. However - this position is not up for election - we will approach the people we are interested in working with. We do this for one main reason - the Paypal and bank accounts we use are secured on Mine and Shannara's credit cards, IRS number, and credit record. Neither of us are prepared to trust those to someone we may not have full confidence in. However - it will be someone who we know and trust as a scrutiniser - who will make sure we do what we say. We have imposed some strict rules on the way we deal with the donations and they can be found at http://www.hclub.fsnet.co.uk/F-RPOL/ which is the web site address we published some days ago informing you of our existence and how we intended to operate. Later - we will be looking for people in other countries and area to work with us to open more local donation centres around the world, to make it easier to donate in your local currency. We do not hold any special influence within RPoL - all we are doing is collecting the funds and passing them on. We have exactly the same amount of power and influence we have always had. All three of us have, however, been members of a special group who have been acting as a sounding board for Woof. Other members include Dollsteak, Ironsite, ElSpike and a number of other people you may or may not be familiar with. -------- Now - There have been complaints that we have been Cliquey - and are acting to gain more influence in RPoL. That I deny wholeheartedly - BUT I will not let that besmirch my reputation here. Its down to you folks - Do YOU want us to run F-RPoL as a way of collecting funds, or not? If there is someone else out there who wants to volunteer to come up with a plan to do this - then We will gladly hand things over to them - so long as they can convince Woof that their plans are secure and workable. However, if you want Shannara, BBR and I to run it - then we will do it in OUR way - The way that maintains the security of out credit backgrounds and also provides security for your donations. A way that will let us answer to the IRS and the British banking system if we have to. Your choice folks. Do we carry on? Do we let it all fold and return donations? Or is there another VOLUNTEER to do the dirty work and get hassled at the same time? | |||
I have no problem with the three of you (and whoever else is involved) doing Woof and company this service. People suggested that they wanted something like this to happen and you guys have obviously stepped up to bat to make it happen. Good for you! I know I wasn't willing to do it, and I have a feeling that many of the naysayers here weren't willing to do it either. As for special influence... maybe I'm an incredible optimist, but what influence could you possibly gain through all of this? Better dice rolls? An extra game to GM? I find the entire idea that you guys could gain any influence over RPOL so that it would have any effect on me whatsoever to be a bit ridiculuos. My suggestion to you guys is put all that crap behind you and carry on. No matter what you do there are going to be people casting aspersions on your motives and doubting your integrity. Your only other alternative is to do nothing at all, and where's the fun and sense of achievement in that? | |||
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People are here to gameplay, some are prepared to put some real effort to create a gaming environment. Some, want the "position" it might imply, but really cannot do anything. Presumably because of a lack of skills, ability to stick at something that equates to effort, and just plain old immaturity. Probably also a bad case of insecurity too. Continue the good work, you will find team players. Forget the naysayers. | |||
I can assure you that there aren't any good dice rolls attached to this -- Generally, my characters only roll high when they need low. I've offered bribes to make the dice roller like me, all to no avail. Sad, because Woof could probably get enough $$ to support the site for about 10 years if he accepted the bribes from everyone the dice roller seems to hate. ;) And yes, any responses are welcome. Negatives as well as ones of support. I 'volunteered' to open the paypal account, and a bank account, and it is secured with my personal credit card, and the bank account is accountable to my Tax ID number. That was the only way to open the accounts, and I'm more than happy to provide copies of every scrap of documentation to anyone/everyone who would care to see it (minus, of course, information such as the credit card number and expiration date). Johnb volunteered to open a UK bank account for Friends of RPOL, and to do that we had to have officers and meetings and the like. SO -- anyone who thinks that I'm going to run off with the donations that reach the paypal account or use them improperly, feel free to speak up. I'll be happy to account for each and every penny, and will publish lists of donors on a monthly basis. The money will stay in the account untouched until woof directs me to transfer it to him or to distribute it in payment to the server host. Any of you that do think I'm not trustworthy, feel free to post it. You should know to whom you're entrusting your donations (and if it goes to friends of rpol via paypal, that's me right now until there's a secondary who I'm willing to trust with my credit card number -- dollsteak has already declined). And let me confess my terrible sin -- I've also offered -- tentatively -- to help with setting up a non-profit to take over playbyweb so that it doesn't close in June. Woof doesn't seem to share the site vs. site animosity. I don't have any love for the admin of PBW, but it was a good site and I had some good times there, and I'd like to see it survive without the ego conflicts that contributed to the mass exodus. I'd also like -- if it does get turned over to a non-profit -- to see if woof is still interested in the sister-site idea. So .... there it is. Anyone who thinks that makes me a traitor, a terrible, morally bankrupt person, or something even worse, and therefore my help with this cause isn't wanted, this is your chance to speak up. I offered to help because I love this site, I love to roleplay, and I love what woof's done here. If someone else wants the job, the accountability, etc., the responsibility of updating the donations -- give a yell. BTW - I have been updating the list of donations received as soon as I have been notified of receipt. I have made the tread (Treasurer Information) public so that it can be read by all. | |||
You can see I'm not Secretary anymore. I denied becoming part of this group once I looked at it closer in working format. I've given John the opportunity to change it, or find someone to replace me. His idea of changing it is "Take it over in our place, or we'll do it like we want." Here are the conflicts: John is Chairman. This is probably the most powerful position of any group, and demands attention to details. John is also heading the "save PBW" attempts. If he does both, his attention will be split. I see that as a conflict of interest. Shannara is Treasurer... voted in by three other people. Have any of you been given the opportunity to express who you trust with your money? And what about Shannara's replacement, will you be given the opportunity to chose them? The answer is no. Another issue... Shannara is handling all the funds from UK and America. If she is also going to be helping with the "Save PBW" is she going to be Treasurer there besides? Does anyone else see a problem with a bunch of money donated to our site getting shuffled off to someone who might be saving up money for the other site too? Will she decide at one point or another to borrow from one to lend to the other? And if so, why is it her decision? Do you see the conflict of interest? All positions of this FoRPoL group are selected by the current board members. None of you will be given the opportunity for representation. They will decide what to do with your money without consulting you. They will decide who gets to help woof with these special projects, none of you. Why are they special? Because they formed this clique, they beat you to it. I expressed concern that this was supposed to be a group by the Community for the Community, but now it's a group by a 4 people, for 4 people... well, 3 now. They say it's only for funding, at the same time they are looking for volunteers to help with writing FAQs, and they've adopted the Portrait Gallery Functions as part of their definition. Woof also stated that should he ever lose interest in the site, it will be handed over to this FoRPoL group most likely. So it's not just about the money, folks. That's just the start. Don't get me wrong. I admire BBR, John and Shannara for their selflessness in giving themselves to this project. I think they're great people and I'd bend over backwards for them all. I just don't appreciate the way it's set up. All I asked for was to give more power to the people... to allow public voice at votes and such. To allow the people more ability to choose who heads up FoRPoL. And what I got in response was "Unless you replace us, we're going to do it our way." So there's the other side of the story. Let the feelings fly. | |||
I am also sure that if you started another group designed to get volunteers to help RPoL - I won't object. All you need to do is the ground work. However, I would suggest that you talk to Woof first, to see what he thinks of the idea. If you want to do the financial stuff with your Tax ID too, then fine. You wanna put the ground work in thats fine. Lets see YOU in action rather than talking us down. This message was last edited by the GM at 23:55, Sat 28 Sept 2002. | |||
1) Shannara is handling all the funds from UK and America. Actually, I'm handling paypay funds and checks sent in to the US address. 2) If she is also going to be helping with the "Save PBW" is she going to be Treasurer there besides? No. 3) Will she decide at one point or another to borrow from one to lend to the other? No. Do you believe me? That's your decision. If you think that I'm that dishonest, not to mention criminal, then please ... make your opinion known. If anyone else wants to volunteer their credit card and tax id number to open a paypal/bank account, you have my blessing. And if anyone wants their donation back, then post here and I'll see to it. I'll even cover the amount that paypal subtracted for the transaction out of my own pocket so that 100% of the donation is refunded. | |||
On the other hand? Why should they now turns over their credit card numbers and account numbers to anyone else, they should not. If someone else was to take over then they would then need to supply there own accounts and take the risk that these two people have already taken. Those that are willing to take the risk are naturally going to be the ones that have the power. Do I think they will run off with anyone's money or use it in a way that is wrong? Well, as long as it is used for something to do with RPoL, well then it is used for the purpose for which it was donated. And knowing how much the board cares about this site, as much as I do myself if not more, I highly doubt that there will be anything going on that the populace of RPoL would not agree with. JohnB and Shannara please continue to do what you have been trying to do and if there is any way in which I can help please do not hesitate to ask and I will help if it is within my power to do so. | |||
Shannara, my statements were not meant to throw dirt or to doubt your integrity. I trust you implicitly. But my point is that it is not up to three people to make those decisions for everyone unless those three people were chosen by everyone. Whatever. I've said my piece. | |||
The people DO get a vote - they vote by choosing to participate or not. If you don't trust me, don't donate via the paypal account . Wait until someone you trust sets up a better system, or wait until woof does it himself. Or, yes, make one of your own. Kinda like I won't let anyone else have my credit card info or bank account info unless they're someone I trust, no matter who votes that I should. It's as simple as that. And this is a vote -- if anyone here believes that I would allow or participate in the distribution of donated funds for ANY reason save the support of rpol, then I'll be happy to 1) refund their donation and/or 2) transfer them to whoever wants the hassle and sets up the alternate system. The floor's open. Anyone who wants to speak, request access and I'll get you added as soon as I see the request. -- At least until woof reads this and decides that he doesn't need the headache either. Those who already have requested access, please accept my invitation to post your thoughts on the matter. For those of you who have offered a vote of confidence, I thank you, and can only say that any funds that have been sent to me will either be the first of 1) refunded to the donor upon their request, or 2) sent to woof or his designated representative as he chooses. BTW -- woof made the decision to open this board up as a 'game' with request to access needed to post. So ... there is no majority of users here -- just a few people who want to help by donating their time, ideas, or money. Oh - and there is no power. We have no say over how the money is spent - only opinions, which we are as free to post to woof as anyone else. One more thing - yes, woof did say that in the highly unlikely event that he loses interest in RPOL, he would consider turning it over to Friends of RPOL. I got the impression that he considers that his losing interest is about as likely as ice-skating in the Sahara. I think it was more an assurance to us that he wouldn't be pulling a Jim. In no way was/is it any kind of power play. This message was last edited by the GM at 01:48, Sun 29 Sept 2002. | |||
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I know I was all over the place with this one, but I hope someone can figure out my point. | |||
I thank you for your post, and for your words. I'm rather upset right now, and am not, perhaps, considering my posts as well as I should. | |||
It is not a personal issue to me. That's why I jumped from the group so easily. I know your intents are noble and you're trying to do what you think is right. And I'm doing what I think is right by taking a stand against something that will most likely end up being a good-ole-boy network in the end. Yes, you might not be so apt to do such bad things... and even if anyone thought so, they probably wouldn't say their thoughts aloud. They'd simply not donate. But can you say your replacement is going to be as trustworthy as you? Don't you think it'd be a good idea to set this system up with some sort of integrity check or at least give the public a chance at removing someone from the position if they start acting all flaky? Don't take my concerns personally. I am only pointing out the flaws in the existing system in hopes that you, John and BBR fix them. So far, all I see is that you guys are getting pissed off at me and aren't listening to my concerns at all because you're too busy defending your honors. It isn't about you or your honor. It's about the system. Bah..... why do I bother. I'll probably loose three good players from even voicing my concerns. | |||
As a person who very rarely frequented the message boards at “that other site” and even less frequently visits the general message boards here at RPoL, I had to think long and hard before I put my two cents in to the mix. From what I’ve read, dollsteak is concerned that “the RPoL community” isn’t getting a say in the direction of F-RPoL. Well, whenever a new organization/club is created, those people who expended the time, energy and initiative are always the people who control the organization/club at least in the initial stages. It is their “baby”, for lack of a better word, and their responsibility to see that it grows and performs to their expectations. Do I think that those people in charge should make all the decisions without considering what the general membership thinks? Absolutely not! However, do I think that, in a web-based community, it is feasible to get input from ALL of the members? Again…absolutely not! I hate to say it but, in all honestly, I really doubt that the majority of RPoL members care who runs F-RPoL as long as money donated for the good of the community goes to support the community’s needs. If this was a true democracy, where we all got a vote, I doubt that anything would ever be decided. In my opinion, the majority of the members are people much like myself, who are just happy to play their games here at a site that works well, with an administrator (Woof) who seemingly puts in an inordinate amount of his personal time to make improvements and work on the ‘little things’ that set this site apart from the others. For those of us who are the “silent majority”, I would like to thank John, Ron, Shannara and, yes, dollsteak for taking it upon themselves to make it possible for the individual members of this community to support the community. We don’t always agree with each other, and that’s not a bad thing, but we need to remember that we all are here for the same reason…to enjoy our games and the friends we have made. Dollsteak had a point, no one got to vote on whom got what position within F-RPoL. My response to that is … Who Cares? No one else took the initiative and, in my opinion, the people who take the initiative to create the group are the people who are responsible to see that the group thrives. |
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