Within the snowcloud...

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
The cleric presses a finger against the runes carved into his ivory goggles, and smiles grimly as the blinding white snowdrifts become translucent to his vision.

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From Tristram's perspective...

The blinding white snowdrifts continue to envelop the chain-wielding gladiator.

Round 2:
  [Standard] Activate item
  [Free] Assign dodge bonus
  [Move] Move (move silently: 8 - Listen check 8 to get "general direction", listen check 28 to pinpoint)

Status:
  Initiative: ++
  AC (Touch AC): 19 (13)

  Damage Taken: 0
  Damage Dealt: 0


Effects:
Bull's Strength: +4 Strength (30 rounds)
Obscuring Snow: concealment (30 rounds)
Alter Self (???): ??? (30 minutes)

Final Position:

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
E5, 10' up.  Snowsight (Frostburn) active: 1 hour.

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Tristram notes the direction of where he thinks the cloud is moving and continues his intended movement, trying to keep an eye out for his adversary, but not really succeeding at it.

Round 2:
  [Free] Listen (1), yup, keep racking them up.
  [Move] Move to I02
  [Standard] Ready action:

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Attack Lyssander on sight (and in range)

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Status:
  Initiative: --
  AC (Touch AC): 18 (13)

  Damage Taken: 0
  Damage Dealt: 0

Effects: Bulwark of defence (threatened squares treated as difficult terrain)
Knight's challenge: +1 attack & damage 6 rounds

Final position I02
This message was last edited by the player at 13:53, Fri 17 June 2011.

OOC:  Is your land speed higher than 30'?  Counting every other diagonal as a double move, I think your last move action was 40' long.  (Not implausible for you to have a speed-enhancer, just checking if that is the case.)

Bah! I somehow got the coordinates wrong...

Within the snowcloud...

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
The cleric lashes out at Tristram as he passes, then follows the fleet-footed gladiator, to strike again.

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From Tristram's perspective...

WHAM!

As the fleet-footed gladiator makes his way through the snow, a massive blow lands across his back, just below his breastplate.  The pain of shredded flesh sears him, but underneath the surface pain he realizes that the priest's chain has also placed a telling hit over his kidney, a fragile sack of blood vessels whose partial rupturing was sapping his life-force even more.

[OOC:  AoO, attack 18, HIT, base damage 8, sneak attack damage 2]

And yet the Kelemvorite was still out of sight.  Tristram reaches his destination and looks about, but sees nothing - until another chain-strike lashes out of nowhere and lays open the inside of one of his arms, not omitting to bisect a vein inside his elbow.

Round 3:
  [Free]
  [Move] Move (move silently: 13 - Listen check 13 to get "general direction", listen check 33 to pinpoint)
  [Standard] Attack 24, HIT, base damage 11, sneak attack damage 2 (the attack seems to come from a vaguely southernly direction)

Status:
  Initiative: ++
  AC (Touch AC): 19 (13)

  Damage Taken: 0
  Damage Dealt: 23


Effects:
Bull's Strength: +4 Strength (30 rounds)
Obscuring Snow: concealment (30 rounds)
Alter Self (???): ??? (30 minutes)

Final Position:

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
H4, 10' up.

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ooc: Afaik you cannot sneak attack anyone with concealment, or is this a special from the snow?

OOC: Actually, I do see you, although you still have concealement. You are 10' up, and I'm taller than 5'. Hence the snowstorm grants you less than total concealement. This means I should be able to hit you first (by virtue of my readied action, and by AoO's provoked by leaving a threatened square).

OOC:

DM Raven: 

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Snowsight is in effect, giving Lyssander the ability to see through snow - Tristram has no concealment from him.  See second spoiler text in msg #6.

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Tristram:  I treat a medium-sized character as 5' by 5' by 5'.  If you want to say that you occupy a 5' by 5' by 10' space, that's fine, and I can shift Lyssander's position up a bit to compensate, but I don't think that's correct per the rules.

Put differently:
Counter-argument 1 - If your head sticks 1' up into the "next-higher" cube, Lyssander can, within the cube starting at 10' up, lift his feet so that his feet are at 11', i.e. more than 5' away from Tristram's head.  (I wrote 10' because 3.5e generally works in 5' chunks).
Counter-argument 2 - Lyssander is still two squares horizontally away from Tristram regardless of how high he is.  So, complete concealment still prevails.

Also, Lyssander never left a threatened square as far as I could tell.

ooc: I see, though I will say that I find the habit of hiding so many details in spoiler text is confusing.

I base this on the question of reach. Medium characters have 5' reach in the lateral plane, but 8' in the vertical plane. Thus we are taller than wider.

But ok, we can carry on with this "fight". It is going to be very one sided since I can't see or hit you, nor have any means of healing... or lifting the spell. Fighting characters with hide in plain sight or similar ability tends to be just that...

Post coming later.

Yep - definitely one-sided.  Note that to take full advantage of this spell combo, Lyssander needs to be both flying and using a reach-weapon, otherwise it would be fairly easy for Tristram to close in on him and start tripping, which is a major difference between Lyssander's tactic and a Hide-skill-optimized Hide in Plain Sight type.  You're very savvy tactically, so I figure if there's a weakness that a melee-fighter-type can exploit, you'll find it and teach me, which is what the Arena is for.

(Just as Lyssander's prior match taught me, courtesy of Mezzarn, (a) not to rely over-much on regular AC, since there are plenty of attacks that target touch AC, and (b) not to rely over-much on reach, when 5' steps are available to close the distance.)

Thanks for taking this all in good humor...

Tristram is hurting badly, but at least manages to get an idea of where his enemy is. Knowing the range of the chain, and having heard the flapping of large feathery wings through the snow he decides to chance it. Activating the magical trinkets around his feet he reappears ten feet south of his previous position, and about 5' up in the air. It pays off as he spots the outline of his enemy through the snow and manages to swing his chain around in that direction before gravity pulls him down to the ground again.

Round 3:
  [Free] Listen (14) get general direction
  [Swift] Activate anklet of translocation to telelport to I04, 5' up
  [Move] 5' step to J04 after landing
  [Standard] Attack 25, damage 10 (pending concealment roll)

Status:
  Initiative: --
  AC (Touch AC): 18 (13)

  Damage Taken: 24
  Damage Dealt: 10?

Effects: Bulwark of defence (threatened squares treated as difficult terrain)
Knight's challenge: +1 attack & damage 6 rounds

Final position J04

OOC:  Bravo!  Nice one.  Go ahead and roll concealment, Lyssander is hit for 10 if you succeed.

IC:

As the gladiator falls to the ground, Lyssander takes the opportunity to strike at him, dealing him a severe blow that flays skin and flesh off the other's leg.

(AoO:  Attack 25, base damage 10, SA damage 1 (because I think you lose dex bonus while falling))

Once Tristram makes it to the ground and tries to sidle away, the death-cleric strikes him again, then takes wing elsewhere, trying not to let the wily warrior use the same tactic on him once more.

Round 4:
  [Free]
  [Standard] Attack 19, HIT, base damage 8, sneak attack damage 1 (the attack seems to come from a vaguely westernly direction)
  [Move] Move (move silently: 8 - Listen check 8 to get "general direction", listen check 28 to pinpoint); Hide check 17 (need to roll Spot to beat that even if you get within 5')


Status:
  Initiative: ++
  AC (Touch AC): 19 (13)

  Damage Taken: 0
  Damage Dealt: 43


Effects:
Bull's Strength: +4 Strength (30 rounds)
Obscuring Snow: concealment (30 rounds)
Alter Self (Protectar): flight 60' (30 minutes)

Final Position:

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Spoiler text: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
K3, 20' up.

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OOC: I do hit, but can't take all that damage... you win. Very cruel combo that I couldn't do much against.

OOC:  Still, a good move with the anklet - I should have used Hide all along to force you to make a Spot check in case you tried that.  So you did teach me something after all :)

Any interest in double-teaming against some of the arena's selection of monsters, if some DM is kind enough to run the match?

Two chain wielders? Sure, but I imagine nothing lacking reach will stand much of a chance. Some judicious positioning on our part and the arena turns into a whirling ring of death... A giant or similar perhaps?

As this has come up before, just wanted to point out that hiding after attacking is very difficult, and requires a -20 to the hide check in any round that you attacked.  (This includes AoO prior to your actions.)  Given the total concealment, you could attack, then move in one round, not take any AoO and hide the next turn without that penalty.

Moving silently does assist in covering your movement, but because you attacked, he already has a good idea of direction that would put him right where you were, so overcomming that he can figure out where you went.

While it is not part of the rules, I would argue hiding "in plain sight" which would be the effect of this should he get within 5' doesn't really hide you.  You still have partial concealment, but you can be seen.  Don't know if that would actually count, but...

I think we played it like you described it Kilric: Tristram needed a listen check to figure out what was going on, but after the attacks he had a fairly good idea where to look, which he did and also could launch an attack. Unfortunately Lyssander didn't miss a single blow so not much to do about it. It's a nasty combo but due to the range can be crippling for the rest of the party in normal play.

Tristram:

An ogre?  Sure...  Or maybe a pack of gnolls - half a dozen, say - armed with longspears for reach?  Depends what the Arena's bestiary has available...

DM Kilrick:

If a character has concealment, he can hide.  Granting that if he hasn't moved since his last attack, he may take a -20 penalty on the hide check (but see below), he is still entitled to hide - this isn't "hide in plain sight", this is "hide behind concealment".

As for the -20 penalty on the hide check - just so I understand - is it your view that, if A attacks B and A does not subsequently move prior to B's turn, A has a -20 penalty in hiding from B?  If I recall correctly, there is some mechanic like this with respect to sniping with ranged weapons, but is this a general rule?  So - let's say an Invisible Stalker takes a 5' step toward me and attacks (and having taken a 5' step, it can no longer move in that round).  On my turn, when I try to spot the Invisible Stalker, does it take a -20 penalty on its Hide check?  (In one of my other characters' campaigns, we are facing some hide-in-plain-sight shadowy types who love to try and pull off this stunt - forcing a -20 penalty on their hide checks would be very handy indeed!)

I was looking at your Round 4 Summary, which was why I pointed it out:


Note the attack and then the hide.  The Hide check here would actually be a -3, due to the -20 to the hide check.

Well, in Round 4 Lyssander first attacked, then moved, then hid.  Or is it the case that if you attack in a particular round, even if you move later (i.e. not staying in the position you attacked from) you still take a -20 on hide checks?  Because I don't think that's how we've been treating it in my other character's campaign...

Any round you attack, regardless of other actions.

I believe it has to do with the line that it is almost impossible to hide while being observed, even casually. Having attacked in the round draws attention to oneself.

Fair enough - and I understand how that would apply to partial concealment.  Consider the rules for invisibility, though, in fleshing out what happens with total concealment:

"If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location."

I would read this to say that if the invisible creature is adjacent to you, and attacks you, and doesn't then move away, you know where it is, and it gets -20 on Hide checks (if your Spot beats its Hide, you don't need to roll 50% miss chance).

If an invisible creature is 10' away, and attacks you, and doesn't then move away, then per the rules you only know its "general location".  I am not sure that this means it gets -20 on Hide checks, but I can see reasonable arguments going either way.

But if the invisible creature is 10' away, and attacks you, and then moves, I do not see on what basis it takes a -20 penalty on Hide checks.  After all, it had full concealment / invisibility while it was moving - you were not "observing it" because there was no line of sight / because it was invisible, so the "hide while being observed" concept is simply not relevant, and you have no visual indication of where it went.

In reply to Lyssander the Pale (msg #29):I agree. Total concealment in this manner works like invisibility and a hide check isn't even necessary.
In my mind we fought and acted according to the rules at least to a reasonable degree.