This thread is for questions and discussions regarding the GURPS Fourth Edition rules. Though the library of books available may be small, what’s out there is still pretty concise, and the list of books is constantly growing.

Thanks for posting the Kromm links. They were very helpful.

One thing that I was wondering about is how people like to do bionic limbs.

I dummied up someone with a steampunk equivalent of a bionic limb by making it a mitigator for the one-arm disadvantage, but vulnerable. I then had one-arm with greater striking ST and arm DX but were both vulnerable as well.

How would other people do that?

It depends on a lot on the game and how the GM wants to do it, of course. But I think they should cost the same as flesh until modifiers are introduced. A cybernetic arm is inherently no different than a flesh arm. If either a flesh or cybernetic arm is stronger than the base body, you can buy ARM ST or ARM DX the same for both. Then, if you want, you can apply modifiers to simulate the mechanical nature of the body part.

For example, If the cybernetic arm is vulnerable to electric attacks and might short out, you can then apply the Electronic disadvantage. If it is prone to failure, you can apply the Unreliable disadvantage and so forth.

I think this would also apply to things you normally don't have, such as a human with gills. It doesn't matter if their cybernetic or flesh; if they function the same, they cost the same.  If they don't, then you look for the modifier that simulates that affect, such as the Electrical or Unreliable. Common modifiers might include Obvious or Nuisance Effect.

That's how I would do it.

Insubstantiality is 80 points and it says magic and psi work at -3, but then it has Affects Substantial for +100% and says you need it for magic and psi to work.

So which is it?
Why not say magic/psi won't work, then direct to the Affects enhancement?
Or does the enhancement just get rid of the -3?

There are two Affects Substatial. The one listed under the Insubstantiality is required IF you have any powers that can affect the substatial world, such as magic, psi or a power with the (other more general0 Affects Substantial modifier.

In other words, the Affects Substatial under Insubstantiality (p.62) does not make Psi and Magic affect the material world, it is required if you have psi or magic which already can affect the material world (or any other power than can affect the material world). So Insubstantiality costs more for mages and psis and so forth. Other than being required, it has no effect on any powers.

Here's one for y'all.  I remember seeing this in 3rd ed, an' I'm pretty sure there's somethin' similiar in 4th.  I'm makin' up the numbers for this, but it went somethin' like this.

Tech Level 7 Gun at Tech Level 9 is 50% cheaper and 10% better.  So does that mean the tech 7 version is 50% cheaper and the tech 9 version is the regular cost but 10% better?  Or is it jus' the same gun an' it's 50% cheaper and 10% better?

I'm not familiar with that in fourth edition, and I don't have my books here. If I understand your question, I think it's supposed to be both cheaper and better but someone would have to look at it for me. I'm only going from memory here.

I remember something about that... looking back I find it as a sidebar in GURPS Ultra Tech, 2nd Ed, Page 5.

There's rules for increasing an energy weapon's damage at higher TL's after its introduction, increasing range and number of shots.  Without reading into it, I believe that's all the result of the Power Cells being more efficient... check on it.  There's also things like higher DR for armor and weight reductions for gadgets at higher TL's.

I don't know if this is specifically what you were looking for, or if it applies in 4th edition anywhere.

First, I asked a 3E question in 3e Rules Chat, about 3e/ 4e spell effect that I think would be the same in either edition. Please, take a peek and give me your 2 cents'.

Second, in 3E Ultratech, gadgets get 1/2 price and 1/2 weight for each TL after they're introduced, up to a maximum of 2 TLs. Weapons, armor, vacc suits, and some other things do not. All energy cell using things get 50% more energy (shots if a cell-using weapon) for unlimited TLs, energy weapons get +1 / die damage and +10% range for 3TLs, the rest (mostly armor) that recieve improvements are mentioned in the descriptions (mostly lots more DR).

Note that wouldn't even affect TL7 arms like in the original question, as they're energy cell weapons.

I think what you mean is, in order to get the higher TL bonuses, you have to pay full price. To get the price discount, you're stuck with lower (introduction TL) TL stats. You don't get the bonuses, and the cost breaks. Is that what the question was for?
This message was last edited by the player at 08:47, Thu 14 Dec 2006.

The TL7 bit was just an example.  And yes, that's what I meant and how I took it.  Jus' wanted to get others opinions.

Question about twins ...

     Even Identical twins shouldn't literally be identical, that would be boring.  Growing up in different bodies they're likely to go through different experiences.  But when building them in GURPS, how different can you make them and still be logical?

     Can they have different Attributes?  I would assume that ST, DX and even HT could be slightly different, but IQ should be the same.

     Can they have different Physical Adv/Dis?  Of course one can have one arm or one eye, but can one be Fit and the other not?  Can one be Ambidextrous and the other not?  What about Honest Face?

     And should Mental Adv/Dis be the same?  Is Kleptomania learned or genetic?

The short answer to all those questions; however much your GM will allow. :)

Okay, that’s probably a cop-out answer. As far as attributes go, you should probably determine a base for both of them and not vary them by much more than a point or two. It wouldn’t be realistic for one twin to have an 8 ST and the other an 18...but, if you decide on a base of 12, and give one twin an 11 and the other one a 14 it’s believable. There could be extreme possibilities, like if one’s a bodybuilder and the other a shiftless lay-about, but beyond that the attributes should be close. Even IQ could vary by a point or two without being unbelievable.

Physical advantage can vary, and some can’t, for obvious reasons. Appearance, obviously, should be the same. Unless one has had some permanent scarring or such. Or, in a modern or later setting, plastic surgery to improve their looks. But, again, those are extreme circumstances -- generally, identical twins should look, well, identical. As for other physical advantages/disadvantages? As a rule of thumb, I’d say if it can be picked up after character creation, it would be something that could vary between them. Most GM’s would probably allow you to buy Fit later on, but few would allow Ambidextrous, for example.

Metal ads and disads? Again, I’d say if it can be picked up after character creation, go for it. I dunno about Kleptomania; but it can be cured, so if one twin has it and not the other, you could probably get away with saying the latter got it cured with therapy. Things like phobia’s, obviously can vary; and I’d say character traits (impulsive, honest, stubborn, etc.) can definitely vary.

Mental ads/disads may vary, but if they've had the same life experiences they should have quite a few of them in common. On the other hand a trip to the zoo could give one arachnaphobia while the doesn't care.

So basically I agree with Sock.

     That's what I figured.  I just wanted a second opinion.  Thanks!

Remember that identical twins are only truly identical until the zygote has split.  From that point on, even in the womb, there may be different environmental circumstances that can alter a person.  Their genetic code may forever be identical, but that doesn't mean that one isn't different from another - my cousins seldom agree on many things, and their personalities are quite different.

As for nature vs nurture, I don't think anyone's definitively proven which types of personality types or disorders are positively genetic and which are learned... have they?  If so, I may have to stop blaming my parents for all my shortcomings!

Nature vs. nurture is a very argued-about thing; in the game, basically, you can decide which one wins. My opinion is that you can do whatever you want. Look at the movie 'Twins' for example, where Arnold Swarzenager and Danny Devito are identical twins, and you get the idea. Of course, this was a comedy, and if you want to keep it even a little bit serious, they should be a lot more alike, to a minimum of appearance. But, ambidexterity can be learned IRL; so can a lot of the advan tages I wouldn't let PCs take after creation. It's just real, real, hard. My wife taught herself to be ambidextrous, but she's been doing it consciously from about the time she started writing, and (despite her claims) still isn't perfectly ambidextrous. Perhaps it's more along the lines of the off-hand training maneuver...

An even better cinematic example might be Raising Cain, with Jon Lithgow.  He played identical twin brothers whose father had raised them in an experiment to see how far he could differentiate them from each other through extreme environmental influences.

This is not specifically 4e but I'll post it here anyway.. lol

We'll say this is for a fantasy setting just to be specific.  What are your opinions on using monetary units (such as farthing, crown, and others such as that) instead of using the default dollars and cents?  It seems to be a minor detail but I can see where it would bring a certain feel to a game if they were used.  On the other hand, I can see where they could be distraction, albeit a minor one I think.

I like the idea of getting away from calling money by dollars and cents - or even "gold pieces" games like DnD - but you're right, it can be a pain IF you have to convert things as opposed to just remember a different name for them.  The best examples of this that I've seen were very simple and fairly obvious for the players.

Of course, it only makes a difference to me in a game that is focused on a high level of detail and incorporates a number of elements to try and envelope the player in the setting.  In a more action oriented game it makes no difference to me.

If I wanted to make a detailed game setting like that, my first question would be if the players would get into it and enjoy it. Assuming they would, the real question is the conversion factor. An easy conversion is to $1 is 1 Gold Piece and run with it.

A more difficult conversion can be seen in GURPS Swashbucklers, where money is listed for each of five different countries, and the all have strange numbers, such as 1 Silver Real (pronounced ray-all) = $2.50, and some smaller denominations equaled $.08, and so forth. It would be great fun for some groups to track what kind of coins they have in the different currencies and worry about how to convert it- or if their money would be accepted in the next town. For other groups, it might be a pain in the butt.

I tend to favor that kind of detail on a play-by-post game like RPoL more than I do at the table, due to how much it can slow down tabletop play.

So my opinion is find out how much detail you and your players like and then build a system that suits you.

Again, GURPS comes up with the most complicated... ah, I mean, realistic way to handle something!

Only because FGU is out of business . . . (Aftermath, Flashing Blades, Bushido, etc.)

     I have dozens of GURPS books but I've never REALLY played a full game in GURPS yet (pathetic, I know), so maybe this is an old, simple question.

     In craps (using 2d6) when someone rolls two '1's they call it snake-eyes.  When they roll two '6's they call it boxcars.

     So the question is; Do any of you have a term for rolling three '1's or three '6's?

     Boxcars still kinda works for 18, but since that's already used then maybe it could be something like 'Full Train'.

I don't know - I've always just called three 1's 'damn lucky' and three 6's a 'damn shame'... but I'm sure there's something more imaginative out there.

Called three 1's 'mutant eyes' in some of my groups, but that's just a house thing and never really heard it anywhere else... Three 6's were always 'Aw, crap'... :-P

I've never had any special names for either one.

One thing I've always enjoyed about GURPS is that criticals are more rare, and a crit with a good result is even more rare, than other games with flat probabilities, such as D20. It makes them a bit more special when they happen.

It seems that way, but it's somewhat illusory (at least for "any crit" -- "crit with a good result" may still stand).  A critical in GURPS comes on a 3 or 4 for anybody, and 5 in many cases.  The probability of a 3 or 4 is 4/216, or 1/54.  In D&D3.5, that's almost as likely as a natural twenty with a 13 or better needed to confirm (1/20 * 8/20 = 8/400 = 1/50).

If you add a 5 to the chance of critical in GURPS, it's 10/216, or 2.5 times as likely (which, ignoring the critical effect roll, is nearly the same as D&D's 1/20 chance of an automatic hit).

This geekery brought to you by the numbers 20 and 6.

LOL!  But which one was the number of the day?!

     Wow.  And you didn't even use the bell curve diagram.

Wonder if Sock puppet can do one of those in a preformatted text pic? ;)

Dont you have to look at it as dices and not numbers?
a one * a one * a one or two
(1/6)*(1/6)*(1/3) = 1/108 chance for a critial

I took some shortcuts.

Take a red, a black, and a white die:

You can get a 3 one way: R1B1W1.

You can get a 4 three ways; R1B1W2, R1B2W1, or R2B1W1.

So there are four ways out of the 6^3=216 combinations to get a 3 or a 4.

Anyone willing to run a 4e Pirates game?

MMmmm... Pirates!

Good stuff!

Yes... anyone?

I *heart* Pirates, but I don't have time to run a game at the moment. I'm sorry.

Same here, but I'm already running five games.

One of them is sorta Piraty, except the ships and cities, etc. are all flying in the clouds and all that. (The 'ground' is where the bad stuff is.)

(Sorry, it's all full and not really in a place to accept newcomers right now. They're sailing into the Underworld and all that....)

I was thinking of a plot device in the future (you them nasty GM designs take time ;p ) and I was going to ask a bit of interpretation from all of you on how it would happen.

If someone was geased, lesser, greater, whatever it doesn't really matter, and then their mind was someone tampered with so they didn't remember it, would they still be under the influence of the geas?

Also, how far would you limit the lesser geas power? I was thinking of casting it something like, "Serve me untill ________." A year, maybe, or untill you save my life, or something like that, but I was struck by the fact that this is basically creating a slave, or at least a non-paid laborer (although the idea was to pay them). That's where the mind eraser thing sprouted from...

I have been thinking about running a game based loosely on a Harry Potter idea.  It would be college student learning magic in a modern day setting.  I would want to have it more mature so it would be in the adult section, hence college students.

The students would arrive at the school and be assigned together as a group under an advisory who has a dozen or so students.  I am thinking magic is not more rare but this is a small school so it is not as large as Hogwarts.

I would be open to suggestions.  I am thinking it is in an old castle in Transylvania but with in the castle are all sorts of portals that lead to different cities around the world where the adventures would take place.

Any interest?

A few suggestions.
1. No magic v. technology conflict, having one means skipping one of the most interesting areas of a modern magic world.

2. Magic isn't secret, sticking with the Potter example I don't think they ever gave a good reason why it was.

3. Have a plot. I've been in a few magic school games, all have died from lack of anything happening.

Geas Question:
A Lesser Geas is for one task, so I don't think I'd allow 'serve me for x time', for that use Greater Geas. Better yet use Enslave, same cost as Great Geas more versatile, and you don't risk losing an IQ point of you crit fail.

Thanks. *Runs to rulebook to find Enslave.*

Well, the general idea would be that the players are all part of this one class.  The Advisor and teachers would send them on assignments or missions.  It would not just be, here is the school and make your plot.

I would lean towards the magic is secret but the powers that be are not strict about using it.  The mages council wants it secret so they would not be hunted for being dangerous or powerful.  Magic would be allowed to be used but not so everyone could see it.   More like in WOD.

Now if most of the players would prefer a world where magic was known, I could probably go that way.  Then like in most fantasy worlds, there would be places it is accepted and others where it could even be outlawed.

4e seems to have left Acceleration Tolerance out.  Unless I am missing it, of course.  I wonder why, especially since they included Acceleration Weakness.

It's on Page 81, under Resistance. It's a rare effect. "Acceleration - blackouts due to acceleration, etc."

They did a pretty good job of hiding it, huh?

Ah.  Thanks Lawman.

I've always liked the concept; wove it into several games.. Have Technomancer, much gaming experience... I'd be down for some back to school action... partly because I just started going back for a, um degree in Hex-Ray technomagery and other diagnostic magic, (or at least, tech sufficiently advanced as to be mistaken for magic) and the whole issue of most of my classmates being young enough to be my children is kinda surreal...

Has anyone played Classic Battletech?

I am giving consideration to starting a GURPS Battletech/Mechwarrior game using GURPS for the Mechwarrior portion and MegaMek for the Battletech aspect.  For those unfamiliar with MegaMek, it is an on-line version of the Battletech board game.  If I were to use MegaMek, then the GURPS gunnery skills would have to be converted to the Battletech format.

For those not familiar with Battletech, the lower is better.  Here is how I am considering the conversion from GURPS to Battletech.  4 is considered average so that has to be considered as a 10 in GURPS.  The chart below is the rest of the breakdown.

Battletech GURPS
5          8 and under
4          10 to 12
3          13 to 15
2          16 and up

Anything over 16 would not increase the To Hit probability unfortunately but it would increase the chance of a critical hit.  This would be an issue since I could not dictate to MegaMek that a critical hit has been scored since the program automatically calculates hits.  I am still unsure how I would resolve that issue at the moment... lol.

I have a feeling that I would have to resolve each critical hit myself then apply the results before the damaged unit takes its action.  For example, if the said unit had its movement reduced then I would only be able to enter a movement that did not exceed the new move score.  If a critical hit were to result in excessive heat build up, then I would simply consider that extra heat and not use any available weapons that such a heat build up would logically exclude from usage.

I realize this would mean a significant increase in what I would have to do for each and every unit in play but I believe it would work.  I have yet to test my theory but I think it is sound.

My request is this:  Consider the skill conversion above and also MegaMek issue (if anyone is familiar with it, that is).  Is the conversion accurate, fair, and workable?  If not, how can it be tweaked so that it is?

Thanks for your time.

The chart looks ok. How about instead of a crit in BT you just give it another hit? Then, it counts as a crit in GURPS, but as extra damage in comp prog, and the prog can till dish out crits like normal?

OK, I have played around with MegaMek some more and cannot find a way to get the program to let me do anything close to how I want to do it.. Imagine that.. lol

Anyway, I am sure I can do it the long way described above.


In your esteemed opinions, what GURPS tech level would you give the Battletech universe before the clans invasion?

I've actually done BT in GURPS, and that was a biggie. The TLs don't really match up- you can realy only say "about". IIRC, they changed the TL from 3E to 4E, and I'm not familiar with the new one, but it's going to have to be custom. Something similiar to "About TL 10, but no blasters or braintaping or cybertech, but you cann have..." So it won't be an easy conversion, again.

I don't know Battletech, but if it helps you can often break Tech Levels up by the catagories presented on page 512 of Campaigns.

So, you could say:

Transportation = TL9
Medical = TL8
Weapons = TL10
etc...

And then still enter a few variations where needed, like Medical TL9, but not cloning.

Here is the situation:

Battlemechs (could be anything which is very freakin' expensive for that matter)can cost anywhere from around 1 million to 10 million to purchase new.
Sorry, had the costs way off

Using the new wealth rules, and considering a Battlemech to be signature gear, it would still cost 50 points or more for a character to purchase one at creation.  That is assuming a starting wealth of $20,000.

Am I missing something or is that correct?
This message was last edited by the player at 02:45, Mon 12 Mar 2007.

I must have misread the signature equipment advantage.  It does not reduce the cost of wealth by 50% but rather gives you 50% of the starting wealth in equipment only.  Looks like I still need to figure out how to get each character to own such an expensive machine without having 100+ points in Wealth.

You hand them one for free... You are the ST so you can do that you know!

And if you don't like giving away gifts you could do the Han Solo trick making them owe money to someone.

Just a thought :)

Or you could let them build it with points. Give 150 for the pilot, and then however many for the machine. GURPS has good rules for building machines with points, instead of money.

The way I've done spaceships (Perhaps more than mechs?) was to charge the PCs 10% as a downpayment and have them owe a note. good way to get rid of excess cash, too! Basically the Han Solo trick, but you can have it owed to a loan shark like Jabba, or even a legitimate bank.

Well, it's not that I mind giving things for free especially in a case like this.  After all, it is sort of important for a MechWarrior to have a 'Mech.  If they don't, then they are, what is called in Battletech, Dispossessed (loss of status, social stigma, on the edge, compulsion,... etc, etc, etc).

The first thing is that I want players to be able to select the 'Mech they want.  The second thing is that I do not want them to all be stuck with a light 'Mech because that is all they can afford.  I also do not want them to swing the other way and all select Assault 'Mechs.

I had entertained the idea of modifying Signature Equipment some how so that it could be used in this case.  I think the situation certainly fits both the letter and the spirit of the advantage.

I had not thought of building the 'Mechs as characters until late last night.  I read a suggestion to do just that thing on the SJG forum.  There was even a convenient example provided.  I'll have to think on that a bit as my initial reaction is that I would rather do it some other way.  I have no real basis for feeling that way but we'll see how it comes out.

I wanna run a space based Gurps game.  Anybody know when they're gonna release a book for building ships?  I though Gurps Space would, but it didn't. :(

Vehicles will probable have some, but I think it's just going to be a catalog of vehicles with the construction rules an e23 product. At least the last I heard.

If you want to build the ship like a character Biotech has suggestions. Also the 3rd edition starship building rules still work fine.

Not really lookin' to build a ship as a char.  Also, I don't have any 3E stuff.  What book is the 3E ship building rules in?

In 3e Space, Amazon has some used ones starting pretty cheap.

Really?  They've been impossible to find locally.

EDIT: Man, I been livin' in a hole lately.  When'd all the new GURPS 4E stuff come out?  Anybody checked out Ultra Tech yet?
This message was last edited by the player at 00:20, Mon 19 Mar 2007.

Finally I have a solution that I can live with.  I found the following at http://www.klargia.com/~pds/ga...campaigns/gurps.html
Most of this is intact from the above site but I have modified it a bit to reflect my darker version of the Battletech universe.

In addition to the basic attributes and wealth available to a normal starting GURPS character, each Battletech character starts with a medium weight Battlemech.  This 'mech can be modified to some extent using the advantages and disadvantages listed below. This Battlemech must be chosen from the standard set of designs and variants detailed in the technical readouts.

Heavy Battlemech (5 points) The character starts with a heavy Battlemech.

Assault Battlemech (10 points) The character starts with an assault 'mech instead of a medium weight one.

Modification (5 points) The character's 'mech has some kind of modification. One piece of its equipment has been swapped for something else using the same technology base. A good example would be swapping an AC/5 for a PPC. Small amounts of left over tonnage may be spent on other simple changes, but any serious modifications will have to be paid for separately. (This sort of thing usually requires a GM's call.)

Brand New 'Mech (10 points) The player starts off with a brand new Battlemech of medium weight.   MechWarriors with this advantage start the campaign with no damage to their ‘Mech at all.  Such ‘Mechs are unlikely to develop serious technical issues as they have not been exposed to many years of combat.  Their internal components are in factory condition and suffer no penalties in repair situations.

Custom Battlemech (10 points) The player may use the Battletech 'mech design rules to design a customized Battlemech from the ground up rather than choosing a 'book' 'mech.
This advantage also requires any related advantages and skills needed to justify a custom ‘Mech (wealth, skills, enemy.. etc).   The cost of this advantage is for a medium weight Battlemech.

Light Battlemech (-5 points) The character starts with a light 'mech instead of a medium 'mech.

Quirky Equipment (-5 points) The character's Battlemech may be in good repair but it just never seems to operate perfectly. Some chronic problem always seems to be there no matter what the techs do with it. Every now and then something on the player's 'mech should malfunction or break but never catastrophically or permanently.
Depending on the campaign situation, the player might not even find out what is wrong until something breaks. Good examples of quirky equipment are a heat sink that fails at the start of a battle or an autocannon that jams if the player fires it. Such problems are annoying but can be easily fixed after the battle. A character may take this disadvantage more than once. Each one adds another piece of chronically faulty equipment to his 'mech.  Replacing the faulty piece of equipment with a new one negates the disadvantage.  The MechWarrior can either pay the points or another piece of equipment can develop chronic difficulties.

Salvage Quality Battlemech (Variable) The character's Battlemech is functional but it is in a state of disrepair. Salvage quality 'Mechs cost a great deal to restore and cost a lot to maintain. This disadvantage is only available if the PCs are responsible for the repair and maintenance of their own machines. (Usually in mercenary campaigns.)

I have broken 'Mechs down by their operating condition with those being:
New
Average
Salvaged


Custom ‘Mechs are in New condition and suffer no technical difficulties unless the Quirky Equipment disadvantage is selected.

New ‘Mechs are in mint condition and suffer no technical difficulties unless the Quirky Equipment disadvantage is selected.

Average ‘Mechs are in functioning condition with no damage.  They suffer no technical difficulties unless the Quirky Equipment disadvantage is selected.  However, the many years (in some cases centuries) that they have been exposed to the cycle of damage and repair have resulted in increased difficulties in repairing existing systems.  These ‘Mechs suffer a -1 penalty to repair rolls.

Salvaged ‘Mechs are those which have succumbed to the repetitive damage over the ‘Mechs lifetime.  Such ‘Mechs begin with both damaged systems and penalties to repair any additional damage.  In some cases, systems cannot be repaired and must be replaced.  Salvaged ‘Mechs will always have some technical issues and will always be difficult to repair.  Salvaged ‘Mechs are broken down into the following damage levels: Lightly damaged, Moderately damaged, and Heavily damaged.

Damage Level	      Cost	   Repair Penalty
Lightly Damaged	      -5 points	   -2
Moderately Damaged      -10 points      -4
Heavily Damaged	      -15 points      -6

This message was last edited by the player at 22:04, Wed 21 Mar 2007.

For those who have both 3e and 4e Ultra-tech, what are the differences in a nut-shell please?

Does anyone have in front of them the rules regarding running jumps?

What's the formula for a guy who's making a running leap and has essentially unlimited take off distance?

Thanks!

Is this one of those logic problems? If he has unlimited take off distance, then he's running from where he's jumping to.

Broad Jump is (2x Basic Move) - 3
For running add number of yards run to BM. Maximum distance of a running jump is twice that of a broad jump.

Thanks Jar...  And how would Encumbrance factor in?

(2x(Basic Move+Yards Moved))-3 feet, running broad jump can't be more than double the standing broad jump.

Does extra effort ignore the 'can't be double the standing' rule? Seems like it should, being extra effort and all.

If so a Will roll at -3 will allow an increased distance of 15%, just making it at a jump of 20.7 yards.

It's an optional rule but just multiply the jumping distance by the Encumbrance and Movement factors.

x1 none
x0.8 Light
x0.6 Medium
x0.4 Heavy
x0.2 Extra Heavy

Need some help with Racial Templates.  I seem to recall an ad in 3E that gave you +1 DR.  Now I'd like to add that to a racial template, but I can't find it in 4E.  Any suggestions?

Also, how would you handle less severe versions of Inc/Dec Life Span?
This message was last edited by the player at 03:07, Sun 08 Apr 2007.

Damage Resistance 1, with maybe the tough skin limitation.

Well, yeah.  But where in the book is that?  How much does it cost?  Also, the book mentions buying ST cheaper due to size, but I can't find that either.

In 4e, Damage Resistance is an advantage, listed on page 46. It specifies a normal human should not be able to purchase it under normal circumstances. (I would suggest merely higher Hit Points and Health to reflect this.)

In 3e, they had the Toughness advantage that added either 1 or 2 levels of Damage Resistance. This was done away since it didn't make sense to have the same advantage (Damage Resistance) with two different prices.

I believe, the theory is that Damage Resistance for humans doesn't exist, except in limited form (such as thick callouses over small areas.) If you think of getting a shot from a doctor, the needle penetrates the flesh nearly the same for all humans. So a human with extra tough skin would be either cinematic or superhuman in some fashion. With the addition of penetrating damage (poisons, toxins, etc.) from 4e, this makes more sense.

Size modifiers being on page 19. They cover the reduction to the cost of Strength there, I believe.

I hope that helps.

Huh.  I searched through the  ads multiple times.  As for it bein' not for humans, if you'll notice, my title was Racial Templates.  I'm looking for the DR for a Troll race.

I saw the size modifiers for Gigantism and Dwarfism, but I didn't see actual stats for the size modifier on strength.

Found the DR.  Don't know how I missed it.  Haven't had a chance to check the size stuff.

Got another question. Tryin' to figure out something similiar to the Initiation system in Shadowrun as a means of increasing Magery.  Any ideas?

Sorry, the size rules are better explained under Strength itself, a few pages before that. Look for the Size modifier.

I realize you're not building humans. I just mentioned that in reference to why the Toughness advantage was removed for 4e. As I recall, it did confuse some people when 4e first came out.

I don't know Shadowrun well enough to remember the Initation system, sorry.

Okay doke.  I didn't know there was a DR ad in 3E.

Basically, I'm tryin' to come up with a good balanced way of increasing you Magery  without jus' saying pay the points an' you're good to go.

Hi,

I was poring through my books last night and I couldn't find knacks in 4e.

I can see two ways to do it:

1) Buy the ability and customize it - the powers model.
2) Buy the spell I'm thinking of singularly - the clerical magic model that ignores prereqs.

Any recommendations from the assorted experts here?

-J

I'm pretty sure the SJG-recommended method is Powers.  Buying a spell has a lot of built-in assumptions about the nature of casting.

All I've been able to find is that one spell Magery is -80%.

I'm trying to figure out how to do SR's matrix system in GURPS.  AFAIK, GURPS has a system in place to handle things this way, but I can't seem to find it.  Any suggestions or pointers?

Anyone ever consider doing a GURPS version of HoL or the movie Soldier?

HoL stands for Human Occupied Landfill for those who are not familiar with it.

Not sure what 'things'... don't know the SR system. What stuff do you want to do, maybe I could help a bit...

HOL & Soldiers... again not sure. (I feel really out of it. :P ) But was thinking of finding a modern martial game somewheres, is there a soldiers one up somewhere?

Knacks: Yes they suggest using powers. However, knacks are separate and distinct from spells, like it was mentioned there's a laundry list of stuff you're presumed to be dealing with as a spell. A knack can't be interrupted, and you don't get a skill penalty for being hurt, for example (since you don't even need a skill roll...) With powers, however, you can pile the limits on so it comes out just like a spell, and the difference is more in flavor than function. I suggest doing it whichever way works better for you, and that your GM will approve, because in the end either method isn't going to be horribly unbalanced. 3E rule was 2% of item cost (x2 for mage only), even that's still fairly balanced if you just want to use it w/ 4E. Granted, all these methods could be misused and get odd results, but on average they're all good and can mix and match within reason. It just depends on how picky the player(s) and GM are.

I have a character that's been magically cursed. Food spoils faster in a house that he's staying in over night. Do the assorted luminaries have any ideas for how to define that in GURPS terms?

Also, anyone sharing a bed with him loses fatigue then HT (if they continue over a week) based on bad dreams. Define that as an uncontrollable always on affliction? 1yard radius to cover the average bed?

And lastly, how would you define a general shiftiness and untrustworthiness feeling? Odious personal habit? Distinctive feature? General reaction penalty?

That's an unusual one... perhaps just a generic disad worth however many points you think is about right. I can't see it making a whole lot of difference as far as mechanics, and the only real thing would be either running out of provisions, or getting people ticked off at him (if they figure out he's doing it). Knowing he does this, I presume he can a) keep the food outside or b) sleep outside himself, and eliminate the whole problem. That'd make it worth a whole lot less, because it's a fairly easy remedy.

There's no 'turning off' that way. You need to have some sort of required time, as in an activation or delay to prepare sort of thing, so that it only activates after say 8 hours. See insomnia and light sleeper disads for some ideas. Perhaps even better would be a "Nightmare" affliction, which again is a disad... These are usuable against others, though, perhaps a base of positive instead of negative? I think the nightmare is really almost exactly what you want, but like I said it's supposed to be bad for you, not the way you want it... Perhaps your GM will let you base it on that as a power, affliction, or whatever you want to call it.

It depends a lot on how seriously you want him to be affected. All of those would work, although they would have a slightly different 'view' on the game mechanics of exatly what happens, I don't think it really matters a whole lot. It could be an appearance disad, even. So long as you get the same points, and the same reaction penalty, I think the actual noun that describes it is irrelevant when the 'definition' is the same, and the action NPCs and others would take are identical. You could even use the 'bad smell' disad for that matter, and define it as a 'mental smell'- in other words, a 'bad feeling'.

PS- Evaline misses you. :P

Thank you. :)
This message was last edited by the player at 12:00, Tue 27 Nov 2007.

interesting...
Found a little tidbit might help our JP out...
Innate Attack, Hazard, Missed Sleep, is +50%...
I presume this would be a fatigue-based attack.
Also check out exposure time under the onset limitation.

I had a player ask a question during Character Creation that has had me wondering ever since.

"So, can I cast a missile spell on someone ELSE'S hand?!"

I stuttered and went clambering through my books for the paragraph on missile spells, only to find that it didn't address the issue at all. I explained to him that it would likely be possible, however I would have to assess a penalty for range from him to the person who's hand he's casting the spell on. I also explained that the person he was casting on would have to have an Innate Attack skill in order to throw the missile as well.

This seems like a good solution to me, however I'm still not certain whether or not this would horrendously unbalance the game, as the player could simply cast juiced up missile spells on the entire party and run around until meeting with conflict, blasting it away from all angles.

In your opinions, should this be legal?
This message was last edited by the player at 15:53, Thu 10 Jan 2008.

I thought missile spells are created in the caster's hand, but they can target someone else's hand. But your idea works for me (minus range from 'wand' to casting target) if that's applicable, though. :)

Missile spells are a separate class of spells; when cast, the missile always appears in the caster's hand (though Poltergeist and Winged Knife are exceptions). So, I would rule that a caster cannot grant a missile to another character. And, even if you opt to allow it...



This would not be legal. Once a caster has cast a missile spell, they cannot cast any other spells until the missile is discharged (thrown, dropped, cancelled, etc.). At best, they could give one ally a single missile. :)

AH! That would make sense. Thanks for the heads up, I'll make sure to inform my player.

Strictly speaking I'd probably rule that they couldn't, as the book always refers to "the caster" as being able to hold the spell.  Of course, sometimes applying a house rule slightly bending the norm can be interesting and fun for the group, as long as you maintain balance.



Im not sure if this has changed since 3rd Ed, but assuming it hasnt (and i doubt it has), you can still cast blocking spells while mainting a missile.

I would suspect that meta-spells that can be done with missile spells could be cast as an exception to this rule. However lend spell states that only maintainable spells can be lent, and missile spells are not maintainable spells, and thus do not qualify. In fact the only meta spell I can see which could apply is hang spell, in which case the rolling to cast comes later anyways, and would seem pretty useless for a missile spell given teh speed at which they are cast anyways.

P 13 in the Magic book states re blocking spells

"If you are holding a Missile spell, you cannot enlarge
it further but may retain it for later use."

Anyone know of any kind of "Cannot Jump" disadvantage in GURPS 4e? (If not, any suggestions on a point value?)

I'm fairly certain that there's a -5 point disadvantage in some templates in the Characters book (I'm at school now so I don't have numbers in front of me). Originally I thought it was a quirk, but not being able to jump sounds just a tad more than quirky.

"Legless" for -30 would get the job done, but I have a feeling that's not what you're looking for. :P

Mmm. It seems I was thinking of Cannot Kick, which is a -5 point disad.

Really I suppose it would depend on how often you feel jumping is useful in your campaign. Based on the Cannot Kick disad I would place it around -5 to -10 points. I don't think you could justify more than that, unless you were creating some sort of lame acrobat.

realistically a flat prohibition against jumping doesn't make sense- if you can generate forward momentum there will be a way to convery that to upward momentum, even if it requires a ramp (jumping a car). No legs (tracked or wheeled) includes the most realistic form of no jumping and is -20 points, though it also gives people following you a tracking bonus.

Cannot Kick is also covered on page 55 under Extra Legs, including how to add the modifier to being with two legs.

Realistically, these things cannot jump. The closest they could come to a jump is falling headlong off a cliff like lemmings. Even with a ramp, a snail cannot jump. Thus, a flat prohibition against jumping makes perfect sense.

To me, jumping a car off a cliff is about physics, not the mechanics of jumping with legs or other means. I think it has as much to do with jumping as if a giant picked it up and threw it.

Jumping however is also based upon move- a snail with a generous move of 1 would have a high jump of (6x basic move-10)inches, or -4 inches. Broad jump is 2xbasic move-3 feet, which lands the snail at -1 feet. Anything moving that slow will be unable to jump, withou getting any points for the disadvantage. If you start speeding teh snail up then it will be able to jump with a ramp, as a simple matter of physics. Inability to initiate a jump without physical assistance would either have to be a quirk or relates to no legs (wheeled) perhaps with a trait that offsets the tracking bonus.

Okay, but the rules aren't realistic because they don't take weight into account. At least, I can't find any reference to weight in jumping. The book gives optional rules for encumberance, but great weight doesn't always mean encumberance. An elephant, which has neither tracks or wheels, can run up to 15mph, but it cannot jump. My feeling is if an elephant ran off a ramp, it would simply fall due to weight. However, I don't feel elephants are automatically encumbered. If a 100-ton robot walked off a ramp at fifty mph, I don't think it would go very far. I'd hardly call it a jump.

Further, jumping in the rules covers more than just ramp situations. Move also determines vertical jump, and a car cannot vertical jump unless it has been designed to do so. It doesn't matter how fast it can move horizontally, or up a ramp. Thus, there is something it cannot do that other players can do (if I were building cars as players, which I am not. Tracks and wheels are irrelevant because what I'm building has legs and cannot jump. The legs are not designed to jump.)

At any rate, the answer to my question of if anyone knows of a rule in 4e appears to be "no". That is all I was looking for, except maybe opinions on what it would be worth. Discussing the mechanics of jumping is irrelevant since I haven't even explained what I am building or why it cannot jump. (And it's not important enough for that kind of detail. It's a small side-effect of the design. I'm moving on now, thank you all, especially silveroak, for the thoughts.)

That's because weight cancels out. If you have the strength to move your body at speed x, then that is the basis for how far or high you can jump. Sure an elephant has a lareg strength but again what is their move? Because strength isn't part of teh equation in 4th edition, just move.
Also on http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_an_elephant_jump it notes that tehre are instances of Elephants jumping in the wild, though these are not confirmed. I think in the case of an elephant it would be a quirk, at the very minimum they seem to not *want* to jump if it could be avoided, or possibly some odd form of fragility (it is certanly suggested that if an elephant did jump the landing would be injurious to it's legs. It is also possible that the base stats in GURPS for elephants should be changed to give them a base move of 1 (They honestly don't seem all that capable of dodging either!) with a few levels of enhanced move.

I just had a player ask me if there was any advantage to fighting with the opposite hand as your opponent. For the life of me, I don't know. It seems as though there should be, but I can't recall. I remember seeing something in Tactical combat, but we don't use that... I'm afraid adding it to bland combat would be unbalancing.

Thoughts?

Generally, no.
There are of course exceptions to this- the Epic of Gilgamesh records how in mesopotamia right handed and left handed were about equal in expression but Gilgamesh's enemies feared him as a deity or demon because he was ambidexterous. Today Right handd people outnumber left handed people due to teh fact that durring teh middle ages being left handed was considered a sign of being in league with the devil. Under those circumstances it would certainly be of great psychological advantage though also being a social stigma. In teh modern era "southpaw" pitchers were considered of great value until it came to teh point where the vast majority fo pitchers were left handed- if you expect your foes to be right handed then fighting someone who is left handed without realizing that is the situation at first might be worth a style familiarity penalty.
But any benefits from handedness are situational, and should be charged accordingly by the game universe.

Exactly - it depends on expectations and training. If we face right-handers in training all the time, a lefty will confuse us and we'll leave openings for him to take advantage of. In my training I do switch lead hand occasionally just to see if it gives me an opening. (TKD/MMA)

In sword & shield its more apparent, as the lefty will have essentially free attack against the bare right side of the right-handed oppponent, forcing continual parry rather than the easier block.

So I'd give no advantage points to either choice, unless the social background is such that a fighter Never sees the other handedness in his training. Then treat it like familiarization in the weapon options. A few hours training or few fights brings familiarity, leveling the field again.

Right, so there's no special definition given in the rules. I should just measure each situation accordingly and dispense bonuses and penalties as I see fit, based on the training and experiences of the parties involved.

Thanks for your help guys!

What do you people think of Ritual Magic as in p200 of Magic?
I decided to see if I can't do a character that works on an alternate system and made one up for that. (Had to custom build the skills, too, in GCA, if anyone wants a copy of the data.)
Anyhow, it seems to work fairly well. Combining it with high levels of magery, to make the skills cheap, it comes out pretty chep. You need to subtract the prereq count as a penalty for each spell cast, but especially if you use some limited magery, like song o musical, you can afford a lot of bonus.

I managed to make a 100 point mage (well, I think he's still under 90, plus -50 disads) with all of the college skils, and thaumatology as the core skill. His maegery level could be 15+, giving him something like 20+ in all of the skills, which should be planty for regualr castings of most spells, figuring in the penalty. Or, high skill castings of simpler spells, like fireball and the old standards everyone uses all the time anyhow. (Not that I think Hide Object should have a higher prereq count than Great Wish, but them's the rules. There are a lot of other restrictions on the wish that aren't included in prereqs, too.)

So, I was wondering how balanced you think this would be. There's 24 colleges, learned as VH, as opposed to, say, 18 prereqs for Great Wish, or 20 for Hide Object. By the time you get there, you'd pretty much have all the spells you'd want. However, the Ritual path you have *all* the spells, not just 'pretty much the ones you'd want'. You can also skip some of the requirements like knowing 10 spells each from 10 colleges, because you know all of them. The ones you'd need to worry about would be magery (which like I said I'd get high anyhow), and stat prereqs- this guy right now has a low IQ because magery is a lot cheaper, so he won't be casting any IQ 12+ spells without a lot more stat points (which would bring his magery down a lot most likely). So there's a lot of give and take, but on the surface it seems to me, he'd be just as powerful as a standard mage, with more flexibility.

If you find a GM willing to let you have 15 levels of magery. I cap mine at 10 and most GM's cap at 3 or 4. The problems start occuring when you start adding penalties along with a high count, and enchanting in that system becoems a real pain for any signifigant spell. But yes it can be very usefull. If you go lurk in the Superfund game teh character Nathan uses ritual magery to overcome a game limitation (nobody could gain skills as a part of their superhero package- he was a dabbler before he changed when he gained magery, intelligence, and mana enhancer to cancle out the low mana penalty)He's very versaitle until he runs out of fatigue and hits the wall as it were.

Yea, I know, the 15 was a bit much, that's why I mentioned I'd need stat points instead of magery (which I guess is a stat now anyhow, but not the point). Just so easy to hit the 'up' arrow on GCA... :P

And yea, I see the problems with significant spells, and distance mods and such. I guess the main limit is like you said, FP. I was going to look into that bottleneck next, but still the worst is the same as a standard mage anyhow. Except maybe that he will need to burn more points on the spell half,  but I really don't think so... there'll all be 1 point lower because al VH, but not much difference I think.

So basically, you think it balances fairly well? Cool. (Again the obvious things like mage 15 aren't the issue, same limits for standard / ritual.) The only one I have even close is a 3E Rune mage in a game I GM. And honestly, he's not the greatest at the system, and I let him get away with murder because he doesn't try to push it ever.

It will depend on the game, but in general yes, I think it ballances well. It does make it harder to control spells through lack of educational opportunty, but at the same time it makes it harder to use the spells that have lots of prerequisits.

Thanks! :D

Hey, do talents work on wildcard skills? And, is throwing art a single combat weapon for stuff like techniques and weapon master?

I was thinking, yes talents should work on wildcard skills. Like Music talent would increase Music! skill. Makes it a bit cheaper, but limited to 4 levels.

I was also thinking, yes it should be a single skill for techniques, which are based on skill. And no, it should be a large group (40) or all (45) for weapon master.

Oddly, Trained by a Master gives the same thing for all unarmed combat and melee weapons, except the damage bonus. Not quite the same as in 3E, and I guess the only difference in 4E, is it's supposed to be for martial arts that are mostly unarmed. Personally, i think they should just scrap that advantage, make 'unarmed combat' one of the groups in weapon master, and add that you can buy it multiple times if you want. Maybe, 50 points for all weapons and unarmed, but that's just my opinion.

tallent would only work on wildcard skills for the applications they would normally give a bonus to. Wildcard skills themselves are a bit too broad to be getting any tallent bonuses. After all any tallent that gives a bonus to Science! is just a bit too powerfull...

OK, I think you mean it would work on wildcard skills so long as the action is covered by the normal skill. Which would mostly be the case, but some odd stuff could crop up.

I was reading p175 of the character book, and it mentioned having wildcard, or talent, specifically for music in the example. The implication is that they're exclusive, but it doesn't say that.

What I was thinking, after your input, is since it's 3x cost for wildcards, you could use 1/3 the bonus from talents. Max of 4, you'd get max of +1 (rounded down) from a talent affecting a wildcard. That way, instead of +1 per 5 points, which could easily be cheaper than the skill cost, you'd pay 15 per +1, which seems about right to me. Plus, you don't get any cost break because it's one skill, you still pay for it based on the number of normal skills it would affect. (Small (6 or fewer related skills): 5 points/level, etc.)

Does this sound reasonable? Maybe I'll go look on SJ forums and see if anyone else mentioned this.

In Supers the Techno template has both the Artificer Talent and the Science! and Inventor! wildcards.

That seems to show they can be used together.

Thanks, I'll need to look at that. Does the talent raise the wildcards? (Runs off to see if he even has that book.)

Artificer is an optional advantage, but the skill list doesn't have anything besides Science! or Inventor! that would benefit from it. So it has to be for them.

Actually if you look close at 175 it describes the difference between tallents and wildcard skills in a way that makes the seem mutually exclusive- though f they might intersect without one completely envelopin the other i could see an exception- for example if you have Science! and artificer then the artificer tallent covers masonry, for example, which Science! does not, but would intersect with Science! when it comes to engineer...

That sounds reasonable.

OK, how does this sound: I define the Music! wildcard skill as covering the skills Group Performance (Conducting), Musical Composition, Musical Influence, Musical Instrument, and Singing. This also happens to be exactly what the Musical Ability Talent covers. Now, I think the talent would cover the wildcard except in some unforeseen instance. I buy it up to 4, the max.

I want to buy up the skill Musical Influence, without buying up the other Music! skills. I think it's easiest to do this if I simply count the Music! as a default in GCA, I'm not too sure how it figures, but I want to keep the level, without converting to the cost of non-wildcard. You won't get much of a bonus for that, but a couple of points is still a couple of points.

Now, I use the ritual magic rules. This is where it gets interesting. P200 of magic, I decide to use the core skill Musical Influence as mentioned there. (Now you see where this is heading.) Since the magery advantage adds to core skill, it stacks with the Musical Ability Talent. It won't for actually using the skill as a regular skill, but for spells they both stack.

Now, I can afford to get Ritual Magery to a high level, since it's -50% (musical). The spells default to the college, which defaults to the core skill. Oddly enough, this allows a double default, because it says right there on P200 you can do it.
"Ritual wizards can cast spells at
default! Each spell is a Hard technique
with a default to the associated college
skill. The default is at a penalty equal
to the spell’s prerequisite count (p. 6).
To raise a spell past its default level,
the wizard must have at least one
point in the college skill,"
which means you can cast it at default without one point in a college skill.

So, -6 to the core skill, and -(prereq count), and I can cast any spell from any college. Figure a skill that take into account a -9 would be pretty decent for most things, and I can make this wizard have a 22 skill (minus that prereq) in every spell. And that's at 100 / -50, I can do better with 150 / -70 or so.

Does all of this make sense? I'm pretty sure it does, after playing around I think I found a huge loophole (if the GM allows it of course). Or is it? Because he's still got 10 FP, no other skills at all, and has the huge prereq penalties for anything remotely unbalancing.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:21, Mon 28 Apr 2008.

Well it is very much a munchkin to begin with, and good luck getting a GM to agree to it- most especially the 50% reduction for a limitation that is inherant in the choice of skills for bardic music.

Yea, pretty munchkin. I was mostly wondering if it was legal, but I suppose mostly it's moot. If the GM doesn't like it, it really doesn't matter.

guess I musta been bored that day. ;)

Where'd they hide the rules for extra time, to get a skill bonus, in 4E? As in, take 1 minute instead of 1 second, get a +4 or something like that.

IIRC, it used to be in 3e, +1 for 2s, +2 for 15s, +3 for 30s, something like that. I think it was based on a multiple of time though; maybe it was more like +1 for each x2. Not worth going digging in the basement for the 3E book (since I don't want it in a 3E game), and I can't find it anywhere in the 4E...

p 346 (campains)

Thanks!
I see it says you can't use that on spells, and says see Ceremonial Magic p238. Thing is, that in no way increases skill with time. It does increase the time by x10, at the same skill roll. There is an option to add energy and trade for skill, but I guess extra time for spells must have been ditched in 4E?

Thanks!
I see it says you can't use that on spells, and says see Ceremonial Magic p238. Thing is, that in no way increases skill with time. It does increase the time by x10, at the same skill roll. There is an option to add energy and trade for skill, but I guess extra time for spells must have been ditched in 4E?

We used that in 3E and I can't recall if it was specifically stated, or we just figured spell = skill and used the skill rule.

On the other hand ceremonial casting brings in the possibility of a lot of extra energy to boost teh effective skill with. There is also the optional rule of alternative magical rituals where you can get a +1 for going grandiose with the intonations and gesturing.

OK, thanks again! I guess it'd be just that sort of thing then... I was hoping to do extra time to get a teleport spell that would carry me far, the energy isn't a problem but the skill roll is. +1 for doing big gestures, and maybe pouring some extra energy for skill in, but the energy is going to be horrible to start. Add in a couple points from party members might help a little, but not a whole bunch, and there's no mage or anyone who counts as anything except a 1 pointer for ceremonial magic.

And I really don't want to blow the teleport roll... ;)

This may have been covered before but when playing in Play by Post, how do you handle The Luck advantage?

I'm thinking by number of posts but how often?

What have you done, how did it work out?

In Powers, I think, there's a 0% enhancement to remap it to PBEMs with a game day limitation or something.

Generally, I will allow a Player to use his "Luck" once every 24 "game hours" for regular Luck, and an additional time per 24 hours per level of Luck above regular.

*sneaks in with a rules question*

Good morning all. Seeing as it's been ages since I last played GURPS, I ran into an interesting question on the latest character.

Assume for a moment that you are playing your standard run-off-the-mill 700 point character. You ended up with a strength of 18, a dexterity of 20 and had to sink a (very) few points into karate and boxing to get them both to 21 (DX+1).

According to the basic rules both skills grant a bonus of +1 to unarmed damage. Is that correct and do those stack?

1d+2 is the normal thrust damage. 1d+4 for the skilled person? Or does that transform into 2d-1?

Thanks in advance :)

In short, the answer is no, the bonuses do not stack.

To explain a little further; when you make an unarmed attack, you decide which skill you're using. That is, you can make a Boxing Punch or a Karate Punch. You can even make a Brawling Punch if you like, though unless you have some points in the skill it won't mean much. If you make a Boxing Punch, the Boxing bonus applies -- and if you make a Karate Punch, the karate bonus applies. And yes, there are differences. :P

Most notable is that Karate involves a wider variety of attacks, and offers more Techniques. Boxing is a punching-only style, and easier to learn (Average vs. Hard). One big importance, though, is that Boxing does not suffer penalties due to encumbrance like Karate does.

As for damage bonuses rounding up, that's an optional rule. If your GM uses it, a +4 bonus would round up to an extra 1d; and any +7 bonus would round up to an extra 2d. So, in your example, 1d+4 would become 2d even. Likewise, 1d+5 would become 2d+1, etc.

Hope that helps. :)

Thanks .. yes it does help.

So I'd load up with heavy armour, punch using my amazing boxing skill for a 1d+3 and kick using karate skill -2 for a 1d+5 (or 2d+1).

Hmm... in an emergency. I think I'll stick to shooting people in that example - or even swinging a baseball bat at them. Thrust damage is still lousy :P

I was wondering what everyones opinion on Unusual Background is.  Do you use it or not?  Why do you use it or do not?

Cookie, personally I wouldn't round damage up.

Take the 1d+5 v. 2d+1. With the 1d+5 you're assured at least 6 damage, while the only advantage to 2d+1 is the possibility of doing 12 or 13 damage. Compared to a max of 11 for the 1d+5.

Unussual background is when there is something in your campaign that is exceedingly rare but not impossible, and requires more than a simple fluke to explain. For example being raised arround the ren faires in the modern world would explain some TL:3 skills. Speaking fluent middle english would require some sort of unusual background though.

Thanks for explaining UBs Silveroak but that wasn't my question.  I am curious as to who uses them and who does not and why or why not.

My personal take on them is that they are for extreme cases such as the offspring of a deity example provided in the advantage description.  PCs are supposed to be special so they should have abilities or advantages beyond the scope of normal for their game setting.  It's when the players desire to get really way out with their character that I think UBs should come into play.

I have demanded U.B. for when people wanted psi or magic in a mundane (alternate earth) campaign. A large portion of the group did actually pay up to be 'special'.

I have never actually been inclined to pay such a U.B. cost myself.

I figure if teh game requires everyone to have a UB then it is included at no cost. I would only require it if someone was trying to take a characetr outside the normal guidelines of that particular setting and concept. Extreem military training could be an UB in most game but not in a special forces game. Training in ninjitsu in a special forces game would still be an UB, or having the president as a contact, etc...

I used an unusual background only once when gamemastering. On a convention someone desperately wanted a shotgun in a medieval horro campaign. The setting was based at 100 points (+40 disadvantages, +5 quirks) so I set the "I am a stranded spacer from an advanced culture with a shotgun in my otherwise non-functional craft at 120 points.

I had sort of hoped he'd get the hint and not do it.

In the end we had a useless shotgunner with no piloting skills. Explains why he crashed his ship, too.

I tend to not use it much, if at all. It depends on the norms of the campaign, mostly. In my one campaign, it's possible to be a stranded spacer guy even though it's TL3. However, the equipment is severely limited. If you take anything TL(high), it's considered as a magic item, which i let the PCs have with strict control. A laser rifle would be one of the things that would probably require extra points to possess, and the catch-all 'because I said it costs extra' is unusual background. Of course, if they didn't buy rechargeable energy cells, and a solar recharger, it'd be a limited use item anyhow...

However, in another campaign, based on reality more or less, for someone to have magic or psionics would probably be UB. Thing is, I tend to simply forbid it outright, instead of bothering with UB.

It's a game balance mechanic, in my opinion. If a character with the same points is going to more powerful because he did 'X', then charge him more so that the relative power levels are even. Like your shotgun guy- he'll be a little more powerful, but not horribly so, actually. I'd charge him a lot less, limit his ammo (which is irreplaceable) and put everyone he comes up against in armor. Shotguns really suck against even minimal armor. You figure, he'll be the cat's butt for one, maybe two battles, then he'll be less useful by the amount of points you charge for UB for the entire rest of the game. He'll get a kick out of it, and it won't really matter, just throw a few extra guys into that first battle or two. And if you really want to be a so-and-so, remember Mad Max, checking the shotgun shells, and them falling apart? No one ever said *all* of his ammo was going to work after a crash...

(This could also be covered by the higher TL advantage. IIRC, it's now 5 points per TL... so it'd be 25 points from 3 to 8, and he has no skills in TL3 now. He can't get a default on most of the stuff, has no cultural familiarity, and is otherwise basically screwed. I'd probably handle it in that way, personally.)

Oh I completely agree - in a serious campaign I'd put more thought into balancing. There are more useful ways to incorporate that, but then in a longer campaign I'd expect my players to be able to come up with better descriptions than "I am a guy who has a shotgun".

*grin* after all.. Army of Darkness worked, too.

I had sort of _hoped_ that putting all his points into "I own gun - raaar" would prove to be a deterrent to playing something that .. erm.. stupid.

No matter... great fun was had by everyone. I think even by our hapless shotgunner. Who actually got his shining moment when they all met a hellhound and he got to shoot it. And that's all that counts for 10 hours of gaming or so :)

Hello All,

Looking for everyone's wealth of Gurps Lore here...

Specifically I'm trying to find out:

(1) What skills and advantages (and their associated costs) would be required to
    purchase a fighter who fights with two weapons and make two attacks every
    turn without any penalties to either swing?

(2) Does the above require any Cinematic Skills, Perks or Techniques? Or is
    this a legit Realistic Character?

(2) Can this same fighter make THREE attacks in one round without suffering any
    penalties to his swings? If so, what would he have to do to perform same at
    what FP cost, etc?

Your pooled wisdom would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Don't have my books, but I think this is what you'd need:
Trained by Master
Weapon Master
Cinematic technique dual weapon attack: Weapon
Ambidexterity or off-hand weapon training to get rid of the off-hand penalty


See above and nope.


That I'm not sure of, unless s/he was all-out attacking.

Dual weilding is largely cinematic, yes. There are a few styles in Martial Arts that allow it in realistic games, though usually with stipulations (like both attacks having to strike the same target).

If you're using the Martial Arts book, the cheapest way would be for the character to take either Trained By A Master or Weapon Master (depending on whether the character is unarmed, or armed, respectively); along with the Off-Hand Weapon Training Perk for 1 extra point. Next, buy up Dual-Weapon Attack for their skill of choice, which should cost 5 points to buy off the entire penalty if I remember correctly.

If you're only using the Basic books, OHWT was a technique rather than a perk in the basic set. Like DWA, it should take 5 points to buy off the penalty...which is exactly the same cost as Ambidexterity, which would also serve the same purpose and then some. (This is why MA changed it to a perk.)

As far as three attacks go, technically you shouldn't be able to. Ordinarily a character gets one attack; some combat options can be used to convert a single attack in to two. One is the Dual-Weapon Attack technique, another is Rapid Strike. Since you only get one attack, you should only be able to replace it with one of those options. If someone took an All-out-Attack, it might be feasible to convert both and get four attacks total; but I'd leave that to individual discretion.

If someone really wants more than two attacks, and cinematic options are allowed, there's always the Extra Attack advantage. :P
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:19, Thu 24 July 2008.

Thanks guys.

It mentions in the rules that you're allowed to trade one of your 2 attacks for a rapid strike, yiedling 3 attacks. That attack (& I think all of them as well) get a minus to hit, though. However, some styles such as fencin, karate, and judo, I believe, allow you to halve the penalty for rapid strike. Weapon master also halves the penalty, so it's possible to go from -6 to -1 1/2  (which is probably -2, but a nice GM might let you get away with -1).

I have a GM (Who happens to be in this Lounge) who interprets it a little differently. I like it better, but I think the way I explained it is official, I guess Kromm is probably the only one who knows for sure. Anyhow, the other theory is you get a rapid strike for each hand, for a total of 4 attacks, but the penalties are larger.

Anyone know the minimum ST required to swing a regular Axe?

Axe is Min St 11 according to pg B271.

Ah, thanks!
This message was last edited by the player at 14:27, Fri 25 July 2008.

I know it's 12 in 3e and I'm fairly sure it stayed there for 4e, though I might need a check on that, it may have gone down to 11.  Even so, there isn't really a minimum strength.  Rules for weapon ST state that for every point of ST you are less than the weapon, you get a -1 penalty on your skill.  So you could be using an ST 12 bastard sword with an 8 ST, though you'd be at -4 to hit and -2 to defend.

Right. I'm just trying to confirm that a person with 11 ST could wield an axe without penalty.

Yes, they could. EricS is perfectly correct, as per 4e Basic an Axe has a min ST of 11.

One more question... (I'm at work without books)

Can a shield be removed and dropped as a free action?

What if its a buckler?

Hoping to make up for my earlier error, I actually looked this one up.  Page 287.

You can ready a buckler in one turn and drop it as a free action, just like a weapon – but
it always occupies one hand, and it does not allow a shield rush. Use Shield (Buckler) instead of regular Shield skill. No effect on statistics.

Shields are not a free action to drop, though I didn't see a specific reference to how long it took to drop one.

Excellent, this works!  Thanks.

It is a 'clothing' type action to strap to your arm or take off, I belive it is 2 seconds, but I coulf be wrong. Also, if you block (and maybe if you slam / rush, too?) it becomes unready, although you do not need for it to be ready to work for DR. (You just can't block or rush / slam with it.)

Just being nosy and following on with the buckler discussion in Splattered, I don't think it's possible to grapple someone with a buckler in your hand in the first place.  It's actually held in place with a hand, rather than straps on the arm, which is why it is so easy to drop in the first place.  Rules state you can't hold anything in an hand with a buckler, which I'm assuming includes other people's body parts.

Yes, you are correct. A buckler is a shield with a handle. If you let go of the handle, you let go of the shield. To grapple, you need empty hands, so it is not possible.

unless you grapple one handed with the other hand and hit them in the head with the buckler to distract them.

Yikes! I guess I missed that ruling and allowed the Ogre to grapple Wyssan with a buckler on his left hand. My bad. Of course, his original roll was a critical success so that will justify the error. Going forward, I'll stick to the rule, you can't hold anything in the hand that has the buckler, period.

Another question.

Does a right hand dominant fighter suffer the 'off hand weapon' penalties when doing a shield bash with a shield strapped to his left arm?
This message was last edited by the player at 13:24, Wed 30 July 2008.

No, somewhere it says shields don't count for that. I forget where, though, maybe off hand weapon rules? Shield rules? I'll try to look later.

This message was deleted by the player at 16:34, Mon 25 Aug 2008.

Hey, what's everyone's opinion on whether lifting ST counts towards weapon min ST? Obviously, not for damage, but I'm talking just wielding it, like a pick (I think) has a min ST of 11. What if someone with ST10, +1 lifting ST=11, were wielding it? Would they get a penalty, or would that count as ST of 11 for that purpose only?

Also, whatever the ruling is, I would presume it to work on firearms, etc, also. However, bows and crossbows might be different... I gotta look at the rules, but I think bows you get extra damage and range, and you simply fire at your (less than the bow is capable of) ST. Perhaps extra range, but not damage? Crossbows, you cannot cock with lower ST (or maybe need extra time); this might fall under the lifting ST even better than the melee weapons.

(Edit: Found this from Dr. Kromm, but still not quite what I'm asking.)

"Striking ST lets you hit hard. It's for things that can deliver momentary impulses far in excess of their sustained strength, like a cobra's strike or a martial-artist's power blow. Lifting ST lets you grab and pull in a sustained way using your whole body. Neither would help with reading weapons with the arms. For that, try Arm ST." [I believe there's a typo, and it should say readying wepaons.]

With that in mind, the question is almost, but not quite, answered. Readying weapons is one of the reasons I was asking, but it still doesn't say whether you'd get the penalty for lower ST wielding of one.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:01, Tue 09 Sept 2008.

In my opinion they still should get the penalty: Completely over the top example to follow.

Assume you were wielding a Double T Beam as your main weapon. Minimum strength to use it properly is .. say... 100 (This might require a reality check, by unfortunately my power armour is at home in the shed, and I'm at work and and and.. the boss frowns upon me swinging double t beams around in the car park anyway).

Now if you were a really strong weightlifter, you might be able to pick this up, but in your hands it would still be mainly something you drop on your enemies foot (appendage, tentacle, proto-plasma-blob ...) rather than swing at his head (appendage, tentacle, proto-plasma-blob ...).

True, didn't think of it this way, thanks.

Arm ST, then, would allow you to both wield it, and negate any readying penalties. I need to look, if arm ST increases weapon damage. Either way, it should work for firearms as well.

No matter how you do it, though, at extreme levels it gets a little weird, so I think I might make a rule about partial stats only allowed up to a percentage of normal stats. Is there something like that that I haven't seen? Seems like I vaguely recall it mentioned... (For example, only 40% increase would mean a ST10 peson could only buy lifting/arm/striking ST up to 14.)

There should probably be a limit for normal organic beings. It doesn't matter how high the lft strength in my left arm is - if I try to wield the above double t beam, I'll still hurt my back.

On the other hand, a single-arm industrial robot probably does not face the same limitation.

There is a limit to "normal" organic beings. The advantage is exotic and not available in any amount.

Thanks. I'll look at these things, I didn't realize those ads were restricted, even. I don't think I've ever had anyone try to buy it, except for a dwarf with what was caled in 3E Extra Encumbrance. Specifically allowed for that, I've seen somewhere, and even then not at too large a difference. (I think it was only +2 IIRC, with fairly high ST anyhow, so we're talking only 10-20%.)

Do 4E rules allow a fighter to make his <i>full move</> and in that same turn throw a muscle powered missile weapon? If so, what are the penalties?

Yes. The fighter can use a Move and Attack maneuver, moving as normal, and taking a penalty to their attack.

For ranged weapons the penalty is -2 or the weapon's Bulk, whichever is worse. Usually Bulk is worse, except in a few cases (some knives, etc.), so you'll likely need to look up the exact penalty on the weapon's chart. In addition, the character cannot Parry or Retreat on their defense, and takes a -2 penalty to any rolls for things like avoiding knockdown, or slipping if the footing is bad.

THANKS!  Do you happen to know a spear or javelin's bulk?

A spear is -6, a javelin is -4. :)

It says in the Martial Art book that the Knee Strike technique defaults to Brawling -1 or Karate -1.  But what if a character has neither? The Basic Book gives NO default for Brawling. So, how would one handle an untrained person to Knee Strike?  I know it should come off DEX but at what penalty? Anyone have any book references explaining default Kicking/Knee Striking?

Here's something from the SJG forum about this subject, including some input from Dr. Kromm:  http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=47752

Looks like someone can't execute a knee strike without Brawling.

Here's what Dr. Kromm said:


This message was last edited by the player at 14:01, Sat 06 Dec 2008.

On the other hand in martial arts kicking is listed as a technique which defaults to brawling or karate at -2, and all techniques for hitting or kicking are based on karate or brawling. I guess you have to roll a 3 or 4 if you have not been training in one of those...

Kicking is an unarmed attack that is -2 to hit and increases damage, with other side effects such as you might land on your butt.

Instead of rolling this attack (untrained), it is *also* a technique based on an unarmed combat skill. The effects are the same, -2 to hit, +damage, etc., but it is based on the combat skill just exactly as a punch is. No one has you roll (untrained) DX for a punch, it is understood it is overridden by karate (et al) skill; the same for a kick, except there are modifiers to a kick, and that's pretty much the definition of a technique.

The fireball spell lists it's ranged component as thus:

1/2D 25, Max 50, Acc 1.

Why does a fireball have a 1/2D range?  It's not like it relies on physical speed to inflict damage.

I'm only taking a guess, but I'd imagine it's to represent the spell weakening over distance quite literally.  An arrow has a maximum range because it arcs, and eventually hits the ground - most people tend to see a fireball as travelling in more of a straight line, and simply "fizzling out" beyond a certain range.

2l8t: -2 from what? If you don't have any unarmed combat skills, what do you subtract the 2 from to kick? I know in 3rd edition it was DX, but I haven't found that specified in 4th anywhere...

Look on P271 for the easiest ref, it lists kicks as DX-2, karate-2, or Brawling-2. The technique simply buys off the -2, and since you can't buy a technique for a skill you don't have, you need to have either brawling or karate to buy the technique. Same for knee strike, except it's only -1.

There's also something, I'm sure, in the campaign book, but I didn't have time to look that up.

In 3E there were things called everyman skills that all characters got for free.  Is that still the case in 4E?  I don't see anything that mentions it.  I thought that players got Area Knowledge of their hometown, etc for free, but I can't find it in the book.

Also, you can add mana to a fireball for two additional rounds after you first cast it.  If you have a high enough skill to reduce the mana cost, does that apply for the additional mana you add on the additional rounds?  Or just the first casting.

My understanding is just the first casting.

As far as I know, that is not in the book in 4e. Of course, I have heard things like that are a common house rule and would make perfect sense.

In response to Bai Shen, in 4th Edition Area Knowledge defaults to IQ for a characters hometown (see Basic Set p.176). Also, I think the rules for Cultural Familiarity (p.23) might be what you are looking for. Each character knows about their own culture for free, but you have to spend points to make them familiar with other cultures.

Generally in GURPS (and this was mostly true in 3rd ed. as well) what you have are defaults rather than everyman skills.

So, I seem to have GMed myself into a corner. :(

My players have come across a group of evil mages.  The mages sacrificed a family to perform some arcane ritual.  Unfortunately, I haven't figured out what the ritual was.  Anybody have any suggestions?  Right now I'm thinking resurrection or lich creation, but I could use some other ideas.

TIA.

Summon demon is always fun.

Have it be a spell that they don't have? Then you just have to figure the college. Healing for some sort of resurrection? Necromancy? Etc...?

Does 4E use "blow through damage"?

Ie, if a character has, say, 10 Hit Points and he takes an axe blow for 10 points + 50% cutting for 15 points, does he take 15 points or less?

Yes.

I know that but what about hits to the torso?

Oh,

I don't believe so, I checked in the rule books again and I don't see anything about blow through for the torso or the head.  I believe that's consistent with 3e, Blow-through damage was only for the damage dealt to an appendage after that limb was crippled.

Okay, thanks. I'm of the same understanding.  I appreciate the help.

I like the demon idea.  I hadn't thought of that.  However, that poses another question.

What would a succubus/incubus template look like?

In reply to Bai Shen (msg #188):

Bai Shen, how about they roll a critical failure and the spell backfires, the casters die and the place starts to collapse or something, or it teleports everyone somewhere else.

I'd like to create a gadget, a pair of sunglasses that when worn allows the wearer to be the recipient of a permanent Know Illusion spell.  The limitations of the item include Gadget/Breakable: DR 2 or less, and Gadget/Can Be Stolen:Thief must win a Quick Contest of DX or ST.  How do I create the item with the permanent spell cast on it?  Is there a better way to create this item?

Detect (rare or occasional depending on the campaign): Illusion, precise (+100%)analysing (+100%)

Yes. As silveroak implies, it quickly gets messy when you try to mesh the Magic system and the Powers system. Better to keep them separate IMO - for both practical and estethical reasons ;-). Those are a fine pair of glasses :-)

  Greetings, all.  I'm in the process of working up a GURPS Thieves World game, and I'm running into a couple of minor stumbling blocks.  So, I thought I would turn to the experts here for some pointers.  Now, these aren't make-or-break points for the game, but mostly for my own knowledge of the 4e system.

  What I'm looking for are ideas for modeling some of the more extreme aspects of the Thieves World setting.

1. Enas Yorls' random shape-shifting.

2. Lalo's power to draw the soul.

3. Lalo's power to breathe life into his creations.

4. Ischade's curse.

  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'm not too familiar with theives world, but:
1) Morph (100 pts), uncontrollable(-40%), unconcious use only (-40%)
2) detect (soul)-common, precise, analytical, accessibility: requires drawing set (-20%)
3) modular abilities (allies only, takes extra time, etc...)
4) no idea what the curse even is.

1. That's pretty much now I figured it, just wanted to make sure it was the best way.

2. Excellent - hadn't thought of doing it that way.

3. I see where you're headed with this one, but it doesn't really fit.  To give you a couple of examples, in one of the stories he draws some iridescent insects (flies), breathes life into them, and they breed true.  In another, he draws the 'soul' of a tavern - a black unicorn, which comes to life and rampages through the town.  His creations usually aren't under his control, but have a life of their own.

4.  Sorry.  Her curse is a voracious sexual appetite, but her lovers die within the next 24 hours.

Hmm... Her curse seems to be a linked lecherousness and reputation, unless she can really use her sex to kill people that are going to be important people in the game, rather than just having it being an 'effect'.

  Nope, they die.  One of the main characters survives a relationship with her, but every other man she seduces is dead as a post.  I'm thinking something along the lines of innate attack, toxic, contact agent (sex only), resistable but very difficult to do so.  She's kind of similar to a vampire, but no biting, and she has a very definite need to seduce men to their death.

Is it like they take continuous damage or like, after 24 hours, ZOINK, they drop dead as a hat? Do they linger in pain, then die or are they good one moment, dead te next?
This message was last edited by the player at 07:26, Wed 25 Mar 2009.

  Here's a quote; it's not concoiusly controlled, takes effect in less than 24 hours, and doesn't seem to be any one thing that kills.  Yep, good one minute, dead the next.

'I do  nothing. The  fault's their  own ...  their luck,  a heart too fragile, a
fall... who am I to know? They're well when they leave me, that's the truth.'

'But they're dead by morning, every one.'

She shrugged. 'You should understand. I have nothing to do with it.'

So it's an affliction that bestows Terminal Illness (one day) or a particularly nasty Curse.

I'd just keep that power a 'plot element' and not bother writing it up.

Has anybody tried converting the D&D 3.5 (or even better, the Pathfinder d20) character classes into GURPS 4E occupational templates?

I'm working on converting a Pathfinder adventure (Burnt Offerings, the first adventure in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path) from d20 to GURPS, and then hopefully run it here on RPOL.  I've already hammered out some racial templates (elves are expensive), but I would like to also have occupational templates for the Pathfinder classes.  I won't require players to use them, but I think they would be useful to have around as guidelines and inspiration, particularly for GURPS neophytes who might not be comfortable enough with the character creation process to want me to just hand them 125 character points and say "Here you are, go nuts," or who might want some examples of what a fully-fleshed out character might look like.

So I'm basically planning to try to write up occupational templates (preferably in the 75-100 point range so that even someone who takes a template would still have some discretionary spending available) for at least the majority of the d20 classes (based on the Pathfinder Beta, although D&D 3.5 is obviously the "base" for those classes).  Has anybody tried to tackle this in the past, and if so, how did that work out for you?  Any suggestions / advice for me as I launch into this undertaking?

Cheers.

Have you checked out GURPS Dungeon Fantasy?

I thought about taking a look at the Dungeon Fantasy stuff, but haven't for two reasons:

1) I'm poor.

2) I was looking at the e23 stuff for DF1: Adventurers and ran across this bit:


Emphasis mine.  I'm sure the DF stuff would be a good "starting point", but it wouldn't really be something I would drop eight bucks on if it isn't going to have any direct utility.

Cheers.

DF 1 is mostly character templates.  There's more info on powers and such, and gear.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:20, Sat 25 Apr 2009.

As for #2, Landwalker, have you checked out GURPS Fantasy or GURPS Banestorm?  Both have a nice selection of templates, and although they aren't translations of D&D or Pathfinder classes, the templates would be good inspiration for you.

As for #1, I'd recommend getting a delivery job.  You can make good money delivering pizza to college students.  =)

Not when there aren't any colleges around. =P  I'm doing my darnedest to find a decent job, though, and hopefully something will pan out for me soon so I can have more discretionary income for frivolous spending. ;)

I do have access to Fantasy and Banestorm, and I've been making good use of them -- definitely for help on the racial templates (although Banestorm's "Goblin" is clearly conceiving of Goblins in a completely different way from the d20 norm), and I'm sure I'll be referring to them a good bit for the occupational templates as well.  I was able to find some good takes on d20 racial conversions on the GURPS/SJGames forums, but haven't had the same luck with "class conversions", so it's looking like those are going to end up relying on Fantasy, Banestorm, and my own paraplegic creativity.

Cheers.

  While this relates to a conversion of AD&D classes/races/stats, it may provide some useful insight.

http://sites.google.com/site/t...gurpscoversions/Home

  Ahhh, here, I knew I had a linky floating around someplace.  Someone has already started working on DnD 3.5 to GURPS 4 here - http://gurps.hardpoints.de/conversion.html

  Haven't looked at it much, but seems to do a fair job of converting feats and such, plus has info on monsters and magic items.

OK, according to the RAW, you can hit one additional time for every full multiple of Rcl you made your margin of success by.

Consider these as given in this example: Some gun (call it a GE M61A1) has a RoF 100!, and Rcl 2. The character doing the shooting has a skill of 21.

So, if he rolls a crit success of 3, he can hit with 9% of his shots. This seems ridiculous to me.  Hitting any one thing with more shots than this requires it to both be a) unmoving and b) very close (size modifier negates range modifier). Further, if he shoots the minimum burst allowed, he will still not hit with all of those shots on a crit success.

Granted, he can do spraying fire, but add +1 to effective Recoil for your
attack on the second target, +2 to Recoil when you engage the third target,
and so on. You'd soon be hitting less than if you had aimed at one target that way. Suppressive fire is even worse- Your final effective skill cannot exceed 6 + your rapid-fire bonus for most weapons, or 8 + your rapid fire bonus for vehicle- or tripod mounted ones. That means you can only hit each target with a maximum of 5 shots, on a crit, even if you put 50 shots into the zone you were suppressing and fired from a tripod- no matter what your actual skill is!.

Now, am I missing anything here? I was thinking of making a house rule that a crit success, or 10+ what you need to hit, scores max number of hits. I'm not exactly sure yet, maybe both for spray or suppression, since you split up the RoF before hand, and just a crit for normal, one-target shots. Or perhaps a minimum of the smallest burst the weapon can do... 1/4 RoF.

I recall a fellow on the GURPS boards mentioning a kill ratio of about 50,000 shots per kill.  Now, sure, a lot of that is suppressive / non-targeted fire (and I don't know for sure how accurate that statement was to begin with, but let's assume it's accurate), but that's still a lot of shots just to take a guy down (and you only need a couple of hits to accomplish that in GURPS terms), so if you're using an M61A1 and are hitting people with 9% of your shots, you're doing a damn good job.

Cheers.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:00, Wed 19 Aug 2009.

Which edition? This was majorly changed between 3rd and 4th edition- and one of the things where I really like the 4th ed rules better. I don't have the table in front of me to see what the bonus is for RoF 100 (yes, it's a bonus in 4th ed, which makes much more sense), but assuming a +6, if they have skill 21, rcl 2, and roll a 3 there would be 12 bullets hitting. In 3rd ed. You had to roll for each bullet but at an escalating penalty which simply made for lots of extra dice rolling. Who really cares *which* bullet hits?

I think you're going for B.546, under "Other Actions by Attacker" in the "Ranged Attack Modifiers" section.  The last entry is bonuses for Rapid Fire.  RoF 100-199 is good for a +7 bonus.

Cheers.

"GURPS 4e Rules Chat"

OK, so a +6 or +7 could get you another 3 hits. You're up to 12%, and the other two methods really don't change. (You might get another hit with spraying fire.)

You honestly think that that's good for a targeted volley at a specific target? Those stats you're mentioning are bean-counter stats. Being in an Army Ordnance unit, I've heard them. What they are, is ammo issued vs. kills confirmed. They don't even count probable kills, so they're way off for this sort of question.

I know for a fact, I can hit 5 shots on the same target with an M60 machine gun, personally. I'm not that great of a shot. So if I didn't get a great success (and I'd guess you'd know if that happened) then I pretty much blow that rule away.

I guess all I'm saying is, someone with a huge skill in a high rate of fire weapon is as useless as someone with a low skill. This includes shotguns- no one can hit with all of the shotgun pellets, no matter how good a shot they are, or how close they are to the target. (Mostly- you can get ungodly skill, but for the shotgun I'm just throwing that in. I think you might be able to hit since there's only 27 pellets, and you get +5 (I think), so a crit from someone with a 21 skill might actually hit with 22 of the 27 pellets.)

If you buy a huge skill, shouldn't there at least be a chance to hit with the gun you're shooting? I can understand limiting it. But a hugely successful critical hit, even in cinematic combat, will not do that.

Out of curiosity, in this hypothetical GURPS situation, what exactly are you shooting at / trying to kill?  You're talking about a gun that deals 6dx3 (which I assume means "6d times three") huge piercing damage, for an average pre-DR, pre-doubling-for-p++ punch of 63 damage.  If you hit a human, even with one shot, they probably die, so why does it matter how many times you hit them after they're already dead?

I admit that I've never fired a heavy machine gun, but if I hit a guy who was trying to kill me 10 yards away with 12% of 100 6dx3 bullets in all of one second, I'd be pretty happy about that.

If you want to tweak the rules (for situations when you're firing an M61A1 at a brontosaurus), I'd use the "rapid fire vs. close stationary targets" as a baseline, but tweak it so that it's appropriate for non-stationary targets.  Something along the lines of "If the SM of the target negates the distance penalty completely, a successful attack roll with rapid fire scores 10% of the shots fired per full multiple of recoil by which the roll succeeds (minimum one hit)."  That way, if you're trying to completely vaporize a dinosaur or Godzilla or an alien the size of a low-rise apartment building with your M61A1, and you succeed by 10, you'll hit the thing with half of your shots.  Or something along those lines.

Cheers.

also remember RoF is not the only modifier. Take the shotgun for example.
Person A defaults with a 10 Dx (average person, first time firing a gun), against a person 2 yards away, taking 1 second to aim: acc:+3, RoF:3x9=27, rcl:1/3.
skill:6+3+5= effective skill 14. if they roll 5 or under all the shots hit, with three fewer shots hitting per point above 5, at 14 only 1 hits.
Now a second competant shot with skill 12 fires at the same target: effective skill 20- all the shots hit on an 11 or less. If they don't aim for one second first the effective skill drops to 17 with all the shots hitting on an 8 or less. I'd consider that a major difference based on skill level.

Silveroak, I think you're misreading the shotguns' Rcl entry:  Rcl 1/3 means that when firing shells, it has Rcl 1, but when firing slugs, it has Rcl 3 (HT.103).

Cheers.

I'd say Landwalker is correct on both of his last two posts. only problem I have is a problem with the system... SM is exponential yet it's bonuses are not.

Yes, Landwalker, I'm talking about things like that. I'm not really thinking too much about damage, yet, I need to try to balance things, of course, though. That's some good suggestions, exactly the sort of thing I was thinking.

And Silveroak, Landwalker is right about the 1 rcl. An effective skill of 14 with the shotgun rolling a 3 would hit with only 11 pellets, and that's standing almost point blank with buckshot- almost half of one shell, when you fire three. The skilled guy with 12 hits with 17 pellets, still pitiful.

(Edit: Silveroak is right, I mixed up the math. Fixed it.)
This message was last edited by the player at 14:08, Thu 20 Aug 2009.

With a rcl of 1 skill of 14 11 shots hit, not 5. You are treating rcl 1 as rcl 2.
Effective skill 20 with a 3 gets 17 hits.

Consider though that a +1 is not a constant bonus, but rather a case of diminishing returns.

A +2 bonus is not twice as good as +1 in most cases.  Going from effective skill 12 to 13 is a 9% increase in probability, but 13 to 14 is only 7%.  Like any other bonus, the +1 from SM is not designed to be a consistent improvement in ability.

Given that, expecting something like "x bigger = x easier to hit" is a misunderstanding of what +1 even means.  +1 just means "x is a little bit easier".

no it isn't a misunderstanding of what +1 means, it's a disliking of what +1 means and a suggestion of a bigger compensatory modifier. however it is only a suggestion
This message was last edited by the player at 13:37, Thu 20 Aug 2009.

I'm not talking about what +1 means as SM, not directly - I'm talking about what +1 means as a bonus to skill (which may come from SM).  It doesn't mean the same thing in a game-world-objective sense.  It's an intentionally vague "circumstances conspire to make this action a little easier".

(Not saying you don't know this.  Just organizing my thoughts to consider if and how the system works.)

What (if anything) is the formula behind +SM as-is?  How much bigger does something have to be before it's "+1 easier"?

It's basically a rounded-off 150% of size gives a +1 SM (and therefore +1 to hit).

yeah thereabouts... interesting thing, one of my players suggested a different setup for range using the velocity of the object, in three broad categories: Thrown, Arrow, and Gun

I liked his idea but I think it needs some tweaking

SJGames forum musing on this subject:

http://forums.sjgames.com/show...8&highlight=high

In the first part of the thread HANS refute all comers. RAW is realistic and the way to go.

I find this post particularly interesting: http://forums.sjgames.com/show...090&postcount=34. This would probably be my take.

Others

http://forums.sjgames.com/show...865&postcount=51

But the RAW gives the results that bother some.

A workable houserule would be allowing the reduction of RCL to a number between 0 and 1. Eg. a RCL of 0.3 would mean 1 hit on an exact roll as usual, succes by 1 would be 4 hits, by 2 would be 7, by 5 would be 27 hits. Set the factor that creates the reality you're comfortable with.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:35, Thu 20 Aug 2009.

Affliction 3 [111]
Malediction: speed/range +150%
Area Effect 4 yards +100%
Emanation -20%

Disadvantage: Charitable 6 or less +30%
Disadvantage: Selfless 6 or less +10%

This is for a superhero who induces feelings of goodwill and helpfulness to defuse potentially volatile situations just by showing up on the scene.

Seems reasonably kosher. Might want to make it assault IQ or Will rather than HT, but that's a detail.

Actually I believe it's 140%, since that is roughly the square root of doubling the size.

Meant to say thanks, Wraithchild. Haven't finished reading all the SJ stuff, but there's a lot of info there.

I'm debating whether it's really a problem at all. I mean, as mentioned, super-high RoF is for an area. The shotgun, if you do shoot 3 shots in one second, is by RAW guaranteed (pretty much) to completely miss the third time. This actually isn't too far off, I think.

The only thing I might change is some way for ST to offset this problem. These are all modeled on an average human fighting the forces of recoil. A giant with ST 27 will miss just as much due to Rcl, even though he can hold the weapon rock steady. This would make a terminator-style minigun the weapon of choice for the discriminating TL8 giant, but how many of those are there?

Also, in suppression fire, how many shots do you hit with? 5 in a zone, so anyone entering the zone gets hit with one shot? What if you had enough RoF to put 10, or even 100, shots in a zone? Everyone still gets hit with one, and only one, shot? What if six guys entered the zone with only 5 shots in it?

This system is basally not good for this, but I think it'll work, maybe with a few tweaks. It's just not worth it to bother with too many mods, althouh I'm thinking of doing a burst like in the old 3E, based on hosing back and forth as if you did spraying fire, only back and forth on the same target.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:29, Tue 25 Aug 2009.

There are in fact rules for that in teh weapon strength. For example a 50 caliber machine gun has a ST requirement of 20 to use 2 handed, unless you use teh mount. Which means at ST:30 it can be used one handed becoming unready after firing a burst, and at ST:40 it can be fired one handed without becoming unready. So a ST:40 Giant with a HMG in each hand could have an effective RoF of 16 with a damage of 13d+1. The M61A1 on the other hand has a RoF 100 and a ST requirement of 29, dmg 6dx3 pi++, which is a lot of hurt. So given the choice at ST:30 of being able to fire an HMG in each hand becoming unready after each burst or a Vulcan minigun with both hands, I think I would take the Vulcan.

Yes. But
a) You still can't hit with it any more than the .50 (when targeting an individual)
and
b) if you placed 100 shots in a 2 yard suppression zone, apparently one person entering it would get hit only once

I saw a direct fire capable 'mortar' that can use buckshot in HT. It can do (approx) RoF 1x130. With this one shot, you can suppress 52 hexes in a line, or attempt to hose down an area of your choosing.

Actually you can, for the simple reason that if you do *not* have St:20 you are at -1 per point of strength you lack. So if I have ST:12 and try to 'hip fire' a .50 HMG I would be at -8, +1 for RoF:8, for a total penalty of 7. The guy with ST:20 using both arms suffers no penalty. That seems pretty realistic to me, there is a certain point of no return and I wouldn't expect someone with ST:30 to get bonuses for simply being that much stronger when firing a .50 HMG. Now the minicannon hypothetical me would have a -17 to skill firing with mount, while ST:20 has a -9 to skill and ST:30 has no penalty. So I fire the thing and I get -17+7(RoF)=-10 to hit. Assuming we all have a 20 skill and roll a 10 I hit once, ST:20 guy hits 4 times, ST:30 guy hits 9 times...

True, I never thought of it like that. (I presume you meant *without* mount.)

However, the ST40 guy does no better than ST30. That's the point I was making, presuming you pass the min ST, there is no bonus for anything higher. Then again, there is no further bonus for it being held by a car or building (ie mounted), so I guess that's balanced. Although I might lower the Rcl in such a case, it still doesn't fix the problem.

I'm thinking of just dropping the whole concept, though. It just seems set up for area blasting.. If I really, really, want someone doing that sot of thing, I might just make it out of powers.

Consider, someone with two pistols, firing ranged rapid strike, can shoot 4 people (or one 4 times) at full skill. (Granted, you need a lot of points in techniques.) Someone shooting Rof 4 cannot do this. The difference is 4 skill rolls, versus one. I think this is where I need to make my comparison; It takes an awful lot of points to pull off that pistol stunt; if I decide to do some sort of technique that fixes the autofire problem, it should be comparable, if not more (since it can potentially do more damage).

Sure they can. They just have to succeed by more than 3x the recoil. (first hit on basic success), and that's with a +1 bonus for RoF.

Not shooting multiple targets, that's not correct. Traversing (spraying fire) if they are not right next to each other wastes shots. If they are, recoil increases for each target. Either way, either you can't do it, or it's a lot more than 3x the recoil.

You can't fire semiautomatic at multiple targets either if you are human.

Considering the "area blasting" nature of things, here's another approach you might consider, inspired by the treatment of automatic weapons in d20 Modern:

Rather than making an attack against a particular target, make your attacks against a particular hex.  That way, if you're up against a mammoth creature that has, say, four hexes "facing" you, you can shoot 'em up across all four.

Cheers.

True... large creatures like that would probably be able to be 'sprayed' at each hex. I think, I suppose it depends on the GM. Never really thought about that, but the effect was pretty much for large things, so it's a very good observation which I missed. thanks.

And High-tech, P85:
"Ranged Rapid Strike
Rapid Strike (p. B370) is normally restricted to melee attacks, but the GM may optionally allow anyone using a firearm with RoF 2+ to perform a “Ranged Rapid Strike” at the usual -6 to skill. To buy off the -6, learn the Quick-Shot technique (p. 252). The two attacks can engage different targets, subject to the target restrictions in the first paragraph of Spraying Fire (p. B409)."

I just noticed something a bit interesting, as it is in the RAW. GURPS Powers has a Very High ROF enhancement with mechanics that might be a solution to some:

Very Rapid Fire: You fire your full
RoF almost instantly. Follow the
rules under Rapid Fire (p. B373),
except that you get two extra hits per
point by which you make your attack
roll. When using rapid fire against
close stationary targets (see p. B408),
any success means you hit with all
shots. You can’t attack multiple targets
or an area with spraying fire or
suppression fire, however – you can
only ever attack one target. This costs
+10% over and above the cost of
Rapid Fire, and is incompatible with
Extra Recoil.

Yeah, that's specifically one of the reasons I would use Powers. Doubling the hits is good. but it still doesn't fix the problem, either- you can't just roll to use any weapon in the stat tables, you have to make one.

Duplication question to the experts here.

If I have a character with duplication, can he make a total duplication level dupes. Or each dupe can make a total of duplication level dupes?

I thought it was the former, but someone assured me it was the latter.

Is the question, "Can my duplicates make duplicates?"

If so, nothing seems to preclude this in the description of the Advantage however allowing it gives you infinite copies for 35 points, not the 35 points/copy intended.

Yes, that's the question much more succinctly.

This was actually a cartoon in Murphy's Rules. "You make 2 friends, and they make 2 friends, and so on, and so on..."

Yes, the way it's written, it's an infinite army available at one second per doubling. (Or whatever number of dupes you have, if you have 0 of them, it's ten times per second.)

Reality check- as mentioned, it's not meant to be an infinite power for 35 points. I'd say (and even have a character I limit this way even though the GM didn't mention it) that duplication includes all powers *except* duplication.

That or it's a sum issue. In other words I have 3 duplicates- I make one. Now from his perspective I am his duplicate. We get seprated and he makes a duplicate and so do I. Now there are three duplicates and the orriginal, though nobody will agree on who is the orriginal. Using that method I would say your duplicates can make duplicates, under teh premise that you are all really teh same character and so who actually does the making doesn't matter so long as the total number isn't exceeded.

I'd agree.  Your level of Duplicate indicates how many 'You's' can exist.  (Level + 1, counting the original).

Remember, though, that without mindlink and telesend you are not mentally linked to your duplicates.  They're all 'You', but you (as a player) do not control them as a single unit.  They have no special ability to coordinate; I'd treat them as allies with the same mental template.  You (the player) definitely are stuck in just one of the bodies, and do not see through the eyes of the others or control their thoughts.

Though they're all you too, so it's not like they have secret motives or anything - unless they've been apart from you long enough to have developed into a different person.  This is a common theme for dupe superheroes.

silveroak's sum theory is the way I'll rule in my games from now on.

Yeah, I like Silveroak's interpretation as well. Just because they can make duplicates doesn't mean the total number of "yous" is exceeded.

Although, it's different from ally. You *do* emphatically control them. It just needs to be done carefully, to separate the in-character knowledge of each of them, from the others. If one guy is locked in a room with the secrets of the universe, and can't communicate them, the others won't know any of it, even if the player does.

Here's another interesting side bit:
The dupes remember everything of all the others. Presumably, this occurs instantly when they re-combine. What if you took mindlink, and had the telesend enhancement of video (or some other appropriate one)? I was thinking of modeling this with my dupe-guy (but didn't have the points). A Mindlink, where all of the dupes know what's currently happening with all of the others, and can remember, and perhaps even interact (mentally only, of course) without being re-combined.

I'd say that'd do pretty much exactly what you'd want it to.

OK, I wasn't sure if it made sense to anyone else. I might do that with XP, then, and ask the GM what he thinks.

Might more levels of Duplicate be multiplicative, rather than additive?  Jamie Madrox, X-Factor's Multiple Man, can generate at least forty duplicates of himself (although occasionally he's done much more than that).  That would give him a point value of at least 1400.

http://marvel.com/universe/Multiple_Man

You could throw in some limitations there - he requires a physical impact to create dupes, and often can't prevent duplication from happening.

Other than that; yes, Jamie is a high point character.

Also, his dupes seem to be able to be independent, with different personalities. I suppose this could just be a plot hook, and the GURPS power could do the same thing.

I need to research what range the dupes can be re-combined from; "It takes one second and a Concentrate maneuver to separate or merge."  That's all it says. It would be interesting to have one walk around the building, gather intelligence, and then re-combine to the front of the building. Works like clairvoyance, almost.

Maybe take them as a summonable ally group?

combination ally group/evil twin?

Yeah, see, I was thinking along those lines, too. You get a buttload of allies for just a little more in points, compared to dupes at 35 a pop. There's other ways to model that, also, but those would be the two best, I think.

So- any comments on the range of where the dupes appear / disappear? I always had a mental image of 'right next to you', but there's nothing in the book that sys one way or another. I'd probably base it on some sort of 'regular' power, and since it doesn't say it's ranged, I'd say it isn't. But will it work through a doorway? Duplicating while leaning on the locked door, getting the dupe on  the *other* side, he can just open the door for everyone to walk in. That'd work on a bank vault or castle portcullis, maybe. Seems a bit much to me... maybe limited to line of sight, as well? That would still work on the portcullis...

I'd assume that it comes out of your body - or at least has to be in contact with you, initially.

One point on dupes versus allies- you don't get access to the allies memories when they go away. As to distance for merging there are a number of ways to play it- one would be that when they merge they will be halfway between the two so most want to be close enough to be sure where that is. another is that one body will disappear but you don't know which it will be- maybe you get the dupe out maybe you don't...

Even touching, though, you can get through a portcullis.

Although I am inclined to say 'within one hex', ie next to you, it would be interesting to buy with the 'ranged' enhancement. Depending on the special effect, though, 'in contact' doesn't always make sense. Dupes from alternate dimensions (or timelines) coming to help you could pop up anywhere, in theory.

I like the random idea. You wouldn't be sure who was going to stay, the guy in front or the guy in back... Although I don't really think it'd be a big deal, if it's a requirment to be close, and it would be perverting the concept if specifically bought as ranged.

I suppose it would just have to be a GM fiat, "You can't do that" for going through a locked door. The portcullis thing- maybe. I mean, how often does it present itself, and then it might just be a cool effect of the power that the player may use if they figure out that particular special use. Otherwise, you could literally walk through walls- dupe onto the other side, and un-dupe the original. You'd leave behind any gear, though (Unless you bought that enhancement), but still a powerful ability for free.

What rules are there for making healing teas?  How much would different teas cost wholesale, before they're prepared?

Just treat it like a healing potion in powder form - steep in hot water, and 2d minutes later it's a healing potion.

The cost for the tea would be what - $150 to $250 depending on how rare 'magic' is in your setting.

I'm not sure by what you mean by unprepared, but you don't get it cheaper because nobody has dunked it in water yet.  This is the cost to buy retail.

If you wanted to make the tea yourself, it'd take $50 and a week with a successful Alchemy -1 roll.

If you are buying tea made with Herb Lore instead of alchemy, the potion costs $25 left to brew or buy.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:44, Fri 30 Oct 2009.

Excellent.  Thanks, kurlumbenus.

I think by definition a tea would be herb lore. Alchemy would be an isotonic solution.

in reference to the tea thing, a healing "concoction" from DF 1 is 120 if it's a minor one, and actually I'm the player that Mad Mick was asking for so... thanks :D

DF prices are a little lower for the most common potions, yeah.

yeah at this point we're batting that sort of thing around. I have a healers kit pending permission and I can use naturalist to find tea leaves if I really want but I figured I might just buy tea leaves separate and use the guidelines that Mad Mick uses in his game for actually turning it into a healing potion...

does anyone know how many Fatigue Points need to be spent for a Mage with Create Animal level 19 to conjure up a pair of Oxen?

The cost for the spell is 2 FP times 1 + the created animal's SM; half that to maintain. With a 19 skill the mage gets a flat 1 FP reduction, with a 20 she would get a 2 FP reduction. Even so, Oxen are listed as SM +2, so the base cost would be 6 to cast and 3 to maintain -- reduced to 5 and 2 respectively for your mage. And that would be per ox; so 10 to cast and 4 to maintain for both oxen, and it would require two castings of the spell. The maintenance is per minute, so unless your mage has a ton of FP it probably isn't very practical.

Hope that helps. :)

5 fp to cast for each ox, and 2 per minute each after that to maintain.

Create Animal doesn't create pairs of animals, so you have to cast it twice and maintain each separately.

edit: Beaten!
This message was last edited by the player at 15:05, Mon 30 Nov 2009.

Thanks!

I've got a questions to ask, but before I do I want to say this. I've never really visited this forum before. So this could potential to become a debate of entirely different sort. I didn't post here trying to make a social commentary, I'm just trying to decide on some rules. Also understand I'm still very green with the the GURPs rule system in general.

Okay so I was thinking about making a homosexual character. The problem I'm having is Social Stigma/Reputation. The game takes place in a contemporary USA. So not a perfect place, but hardly a bad one. Some NPC's, but hardly all, are not going to react well to this character. I was thinking about a Social Stigma, but didn't quite work for me. First the negative reaction was far to wide spread. Second homosexuality doesn't seem to meet the criteria of being obvious.

Well actually the second part is one of the things I'm having trouble with really. See this is a player character with total amnesia. So I'm not really sure just how obvious they are going to make their sexual orientation. That, or when they decide to make it obvious.

Anyway I've also played around with some reputation modifiers, but the numbers never quite seemed to balance out. I'm starting to wonder if I should even bother with a point penalty. Any of you have useful insight?

Oh on an unrelated question can anyone point me in the direction of a good source for cybernetics. Mainly something like metal bones, and implanted body armor?

I would suggest that you don't bother making homosexuality a disadvantage.  Homophobes will have Intolerance (Homosexuals), and that will give you all the reaction penalties you need.

In settings where society frowns on homosexuality, I would recommend taking Secret (Closet homosexual) or a negative reputation (Homosexual).  Maybe Odious Personal Habit (Flamboyant Homosexual) or (Never shuts up about their sexuality) on top of that, if appropriate.

Cybernetics can be found in GURPS Ultra Tech.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:21, Mon 30 Nov 2009.

There may be some sort of reaction penalty for homosexuals in different locales, but I agree with Kurlumbenus, you probably don't want one at the level you're talking. To make it worth the points, it'd need to be fairly significant, and it sounds like it isn't going to be for this character. A quirk would certainly be about right, though.

Perhaps later, when (if) memory reasserts itself, a larger disad would be appropriate. Ask the GM if maybe something could be shifted around later when that happens. It would be a good trade for amnesia, if you don't have the points to buy it off.

Thanks for all your input. Yeah I've pretty much made up my mind to avoid a penalty, maybe a quirk though. Oh, and 2l8m8 I would be the GM running this campaign.

Your Magely help folks?

A Mage with an Apportation spell skill of 16 is standing 20 feet away from a 1/2 pound object. She wishes to cast the spell on the object and draw it toward her without having to advance toward it.

Does anyone know what the spell skill penalty and fatigue cost would be? At what rate would the object move toward her?

Thanks! I suck at Gurps Magic and am away from my resource books.

20 feet is ~7 yards, so it's a -7 to skill, and moves at 1 yard per second.  It costs 1 fp.

To expound on Kurly's numbers:

—Apportation is a Regular spell.
—If you cannot touch the subject, you apply a skill penalty equal to your distance in yards from the subject (so, -7 at 7 yards) (Magic pg. 11)
—A target up to one pound in weight has an energy cost of 1 (Magic pg.142)

However, because your base skill with Apportation is greater than 15, then unless you're casting in a low mana area, you reduce the cost to cast the spell by 1. This does let you cast a spell that is cheap enough for 0 FP (except for Blocking spells, which Apportation is not). (Magic pg. 8)  Range penalties do not affect the cost of the spell (unless it is a spell for which Range has its own cost component, like Teleport).

So, the final tally:

** -7 to effective skill, so you'll be rolling against 9.
** Moves at 1 yard per second (as per the spell, the object has Move 1)
** Final cost of 0 FP

Cheers.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:36, Fri 04 Dec 2009.

Kurl and Land, thanks so much for your help!  Please accept 1 Hero Point apiece!  :)

Don't forget: Duration: 1 minute. That means once you have it in your hand, you actually still have 53 seconds of spell left to move it around, if you want.

Hi all,

does anyone have the racial template and costs for the following 4E humanoids?

Orc; Half Orc; Goblin; Hobgoblin

One of these days I gotta pick up 4E Fantasy Folk.

Thanks!!!

Note that these are from the 4e fantasy folk conversion and NOT Banestorm.

Orc [-17]
Attributes: IQ -1 [-20]; HT +2 [20]
Secondary Characteristics: HP +1 [2]
Advantages: Acute Hearing +2 [4]
Disadvantages: Appearance: Unattractive [-4];
Intolerance [-10]; Reputation -2 [-10]
Skills: Brawling @ DX (E) [1]

–Half-Orc [-13]
Attributes: IQ -1 [-20]; HT +1 [10]
Secondary Characteristics: HP +1 [2]
Advantages: Acute Hearing +2 [4]
Disadvantages: Reputation -2 [-10]
Skills: Brawling @ DX (E) [1]

Goblin [19]
Attributes: ST -2 [-20]; DX +1 [20]; IQ +1 [20]
Advantages: Night Vision +9 [9]
Disadvantages: Impulsiveness (12) [-10]

Hobgoblin [-21/4]
Attributes: ST +1 [10]; DX +1 [20]; IQ -1 [-20]
Advantages: Night Vision +9 [9]
Disadvantages: Bad Temper (12) [-10]; Stubbornness [-5]
optionally Wealth: Dead Broke (x0) [-25]

Superb!  You are my hero Kurlie!

The Incurious Disadvantage:



If the Incurious character is keeping watch, does spotting an intruder count as related to the business at hand, or something strange?

Depends. Is the intruder a person tehy are supposed to be on the lookout for stealthilly approaching their position? Then yes they notice it. Is teh intruder a passing sasquatch that seems to be ehading at an oblique angle past the camp? They ignore it. My reading is that this works on the SEP principle (somebody else's problem) so if it is something that is definitely their problem like an intruder approaching where they are guarding then they will notice it.

The SEP principle is a good way to look at it. I think the description is wrong.

You notice everything normally. You just don't care enough to let it cause a reaction. You would still make fear checks if a zombie walked past (and that was required of everyone else), but if you made it, you'd go get another beer. The description of the 'typical Maine Yankee' in the book under Unfazeable, IMO, should really include this, or maybe be this instead. "What'd that green feller with the three tentacles want?" "Directions, he just made a wrong turn at Mars. looks like rain..." Note as long as fear checks, reaction rolls, and that sort of thing aren't required for anyone else, that would be about the way it would go. The minute reaction rolls start to be made, it's actually more tricky- the response would likely be about the same, but someone interacting would likely be ignored. (You'd need to interrupt the guy's rocking to ask directions.) You'd likely be viewed as impolite or worse. Fear checks also are interesting, he doesn't care about the blood and guts all over the wall much, but he might start puking regardless. Do not give this the benefit of a 15 point advantage like Unfazeable just because he doesn't care what it is or how it got there.

Being on watch is the business at hand. Seeing anything that would trigger any sort of response for anyone else would trigger a response for him / her. He certainly wouldn't care if it's a Sasquatch, like Silveroak said, it matters more if it's in the 'business at hand'. Which is watching. 42 of them pass by in the night, next morning the party wakes and asks 'Anything happen?', and the answer would be 'No,' unless it was considered part of whatever was being watched for. Which, in my opinion, includes anything that could possibly be a threat. Whether they wake anyone might depend on a) how close they get, like Silveroak said, or b) what specific instructions he was given before everyone else went to bed.

Hope that helps, but it's certainly my take, and not the official one. I honestly can't see 'not noticing' things. Think of it as my kids ignoring me... They notice me just fine, all right, but don't care.

1. What do people generally do as far as advantages like 'luck' that have a real-time based recharge rate?  I've thought about recharges based on posting rate (recharges every X posts), real world time (recharges weekly), and narratively (recharges every X scenes).

2. Similarly, how often do you give out CP (based on posting rate, real world time, or scenes?), and how much in general do you award?

If you look in powers there is a 0% 'enhancement' to convert these advantages to game time, which I consider mandatory for online gaming.

Yeah, I'd advocate using the "Game Time" mod as well.

Do you follow the "Game Time" enhancement mod's 1/session = 1/in-game week when awarding CP?

Hadn't actually thought about that- I tend to/try to go by natural breakpoints rather than by schedule. I might do that in the future, depending on the game...
the downside is that if you are not adventuring that gives you a more or less minimal advancement rate of 1 point/week which is 168 hours long...including time to sleep.

Question:  In close combat, you can still wield an axe but at -4 right?  What about parrying with it? And what about a Shield? Can you still block or shield bash in close combat at a negative modifier to reflect the reach of the weapon?

As I understand it in cc a shield cannot block or bash AND you have a DX penalty to all actions equal to the DB of the shield.

A weapon's ability to parry is down by -2 (as the -4 to skill lowers it).

Thanks much Kurlie!  :)

Importantly this doesn't apply the turn that they enter close combat; they are assumed to be able to parry/block as normal as the attacker is drawing close.

And they can often retreat to get the range to block/parry anyway.

I was looking for that.  And, it's not when they enter CC.  The terms I remember are 'upon the initial attack.'  After the attack, all modifiers apply.

Its in the GURPS FAQ, its for the entire turn that your opponant enters CC.

Keeping someone in CC is pretty hard. It they are able to retreat or otherwise move out of CC you cannot impose CC penalties on them.

Can a person who's left hand is grappled, ready a 1 hex reach weapon with his right (ungrappled) hand, while in close combat?

B.371 asserts that "You can Ready an item if you have a hand free, but you must make a DX roll. Failure means you drop the item."

It doesn't provide for differently-sized items. I suppose if you wanted, you could apply some sort of penalty based on weapon size. Say a Reach C weapon is a DX roll, anything greater takes a penalty equal to twice its reach (so readying a broadsword would be DX-2). It isn't RAW, but it makes sense, and it follows the precedent set by the rules for actually attacking something in close combat with Reach 1+ weapons.

Makes sense. Thanks! :)

do "evaluate" +1's keep accumulating indefinitely or is there ultimately a cap? And what do those +1's allow you do do?  A little rusty in all these optional rulse.

Evaluate caps at +3 after three consecutive rounds.  It's a bonus to-hit, and also adds to resistance against feints that occur in the mean time.

If you continue to evaluate, it does not go higher than +3, but doesn't reset.  If you stop evaluating you have to start all over.

Note that Evaluate isn't an optional rule; it's one of the core maneuvers.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:19, Fri 07 May 2010.

As always, thank you for your help!

There are so many templates for the various fantasy races scattered throughout the world books and editions. I'm confused.

Does anyone know the current 4E 'official' templates for the following?

1. Elf
2. Half Elf
3. Dwarf
4. Half Orc
5. Orc
6. Gnome
7. Halfling

I won't get greedy and ask for Goblin too.

There are no single 'official' templates, but I've got some from Banestorm and some from an update of 3e's Fantasy Folk to 4e, and then there are Dungeon Fantasy's templates.

They're very different, because they're all different takes on the races.

I'll post 'em in a bit.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:19, Wed 12 May 2010.

I'd probably go with the update to 4E for Fantasy Folk.  Thanks!

Hey, which is your Orcslayer character? I'll give you a Hero Point.

Here's all of them, just for comparison's sake.  Banestorm are the takes on them for the Yrth setting, 4e are a more 'generic' fantasy take, and Dungeon Fantasy are for hack and slash sort of games.


Elf

Banestorm Elf[41]
Attribute Modifiers: ST-1 [-10]; DX+1; [20]; IQ+1 [20].
Advantages: Attractive [4]; Gifted Artist 1 [5]; Magery 0 [5]; Musical Ability 1 [5]; Unaging [15].
Disadvantages: Code of Honor(Elven) [-10]; Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15].
Racial Skill Bonuses: +1 to Bow [2].

Fantasy-Folk Elf [41]
Attributes: ST -1 [-10]; IQ +1 [20]
Advantages: Appearance: Attractive [4]; Magery 1 [15]; Perfect Balance [15]; Unaging [15]
Disadvantages: Code of Honor (Live with elegance and style) [-10]; Sense of Duty (Nature) [-10]
Skills: Public Speaking (Storytelling) @ IQ (E) [1]; Savoir-Faire @ IQ (E) [1]

Dungeon Fantasy High Elf [20]
Attribute Modifiers: ST-1 [-10]; IQ+1 [20].
Advantages: Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Magery 0 [5]; Musical Ability 1 [5]; Voice [10].
Perks: Elven Gear [1]
Disadvantages: Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15].
Features: Gold or silver hair.

Dungeon Fantasy Wood Elf [20]
Attribute Modifiers: ST-1 [-10]; DX+1 [20].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: Basic Move+1 [5].
Advantages:  Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Forest Guardian 2 [10]; Magery 0 [5].
Perks: Elven Gear [1].
Disadvantages: Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15].
Features: Green hair

Half-Elf

Yrth Half-Elf [27]
Attribute Modifiers: IQ+1 [20].
Advantages: Extended Lifespan 1 [2]; Magery 0 [5].

Fantasy Folk –Half-Elf [6]
Advantages: Appearance: Attractive [4]; Extended Lifespan 1 [2]; Magery 0 [5]
Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Outcasts) -1 [-5]

Dungeon Fantasy Half-Elf [20]
Attribute Modifiers: DX+1 [20].
Advantages: Magery 0 [5].
Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Half-Breed) [-5].
Features: Any hair color but a reasonable human one.

Dwarf

Yrth Dwarf [35]
Attribute Modifiers: ST+2 [20]; HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: FP+3 [9]; Basic Move-1 [-5].
Advantages: Artificer 1 [10]; Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin, -40%)[3]; Extended Lifespan 1 [2]; Lifting ST+2 [6]; Longevity [2]; Resistant to Poison (+3) [5]; Signature Gear [1].
Disadvantages: Greed (12) [-15]; Intolerance (Racial enemies) [-5]; Miserliness (15) [-5]; Stubbornness [-5].
Quirks: Expects male dwarves to have long beards; Prefers gold to other precious metals [-2].
Racial Skills: Axe/Mace (A) DX [2]-10;Merchant (A) IQ [2]-10.
Features: Taboo Traits (Jumping, Running skills).

Fantasy Folk Dwarf [40] 4'-4.5' tall, 175-250 lbs
Attributes: ST +1 [10]
Secondary Characteristics: Move -1 [-5]; Fatigue +1 [3]; Will +1 [5]; SM -1
Advantages: Damage Resistance +1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]; Extended Lifespan 2 (x4) [4]; Hard to Kill +1 [2]; Lifting ST +3 [9]; Night Vision +5 [5]; Talent: Artificer +3 [15]
Disadvantages: Greed (15) [-7]; Miserliness (15) [-5]; Distrusts Elves and Goblins [-1]; Intolerance (Orcs) [-1]; Never Shave Beards [-1]
Skills: Axe/Mace @ DX (A) [2]; Merchant @ IQ (A) [2]

Dungeon Fantasy Dwarf [20]
Attribute Modifiers: HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: FP+3 [9]; Basic Move-1 [-5].
Advantages: Alcohol Tolerance [1]; Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]; Lifting ST 2 [6]; Night Vision 5 [5]; Pickaxe Penchant 1* [5]; Resistant to Poison (+3) [5].
Perks: Dwarven Gear† [1].
Disadvantages: Greed (12) [-15]; Stubbornness [-5].
Features: Armor isn’t interchangeable with human armor.

Half-Orc

Yrth Half-Orc [6]
Attribute Modifiers: HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: HP+2 [4].
Advantages: Acute Hearing 1 [2].
Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Minority Group) [-10].

Fantasy Folk –Half-Orc [-13]
Attributes: IQ -1 [-20]; HT +1 [10]
Secondary Characteristics: HP +1 [2]
Advantages: Acute Hearing +2 [4]
Disadvantages: Reputation -2 [-10]
Skills: Brawling @ DX (E) [1]

Dungeon Fantasy Half-Orc [20]
Attribute Modifiers: HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: HP+1 [2].
Advantages: Acute Hearing 1 [2]; Night Vision 5 [5]; Rapid Healing [5]; Resistant to Metabolic Hazards (+3) [10].
Disadvantages: Appearance (Unattractive) [-4]; Social Stigma (Savage) [-10].

Gnome

Yrth Gnome [-7]
Attribute Modifiers: None.
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: FP+1 [3]; Basic Move-1 [-5].
Advantages: Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]; Green Thumb 1 [5]; Honest Face [1]; Longevity [2].
Disadvantages: Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15].
Quirks: Doesn’t like to live under-ground. [-1]

Fantasy Folk –Gnome [30] 4'-4.5' tall, 150-200 lbs
Secondary Characteristics: Move -1 [-5]; Fatigue +1 [3]; SM -1
Advantages: Damage Resistance +1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]; Extended Lifespan 2 (x4) [4]; Hard to Kill +1 [2]; Lifting ST +2 [6]; Talent: Craftsman +4 [20]
Disadvantages: Dislikes being Underground [-1]; Never forget a Favor or Injury [-1]; Trim Beards neat and close [-1]

Dungeon Fantasy Gnome [20]
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: SM -1; FP+3 [9]; Basic Move-1 [-5].
Advantages: Honest Face [1]; Night Vision 5 [5]; Resistant to Poison (+3) [5]; Widget-Worker 2* [10].
Disadvantages: Curious (12) [-5].

Halfling

Yrth halfing [0]
Attribute Modifiers: ST-3 [-30]; DX+1 [20]; HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: SM -1; HP+1 [2]; Basic Move-1 [-5].
Advantages: Halfling Ranged Weapon Talent 2 [10]; Silence 1 [5]; Social Regard 1 (Good Neighbor) [5].
Disadvantages: Chummy [-5]; Code of Honor (Halfling) [-5]; Gluttony (12) [-5].
Quirks: Dislike large bodies of water; Staid. [-2].

Fantasy Folk Halfling [12/17] 4'-4.5' tall, 65-125 lbs
Attributes: ST -2 [-20]; DX +1 [20]; HT +1 [10]
Secondary Characteristics: Move -1 [-5]; SM -1
Advantages: Reputation +1 [5]; Silence 2 [10]; Talent: Thrown Weapon +2 [10]
Disadvantages: Addiction (Tobacco), optional [-5]; Code of Honor (Hospitality) [-5]; Gluttony (9) [-7]; Dislikes Travel [-1]

Dungeon Fantasy Halfling [0]
Attribute Modifiers: ST-3 [-30]; DX+1 [20]; HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: SM -2; HP+2 [4]; Basic Move-1 [-5].
Advantages: Halfling Marksmanship 2* [10]; Honest Face [1]; Silence 2 [10].
Disadvantages: Gluttony (12) [-5]; Kleptomania (12) [-15].
Features: Hairy feet.

These are great! Thanks!

Question...

A man is laying down in round 1.

That round he declares he moves from laying down to kneeling.

In Round 2 can he declare he moves from kneeling to standing and move his full movement?

I believe that in 4e when moving from kneeling to standing, no movement is allowed.

that was my thought too.

You may, however, still perform some other action. Moving from Kneeling to Standing (and vice versa) only requires a step (B.364, Change Posture, ¶3). So you can go from Kneeling to Standing and then Attack, Ready, Aim, or any other maneuver that allows a step.

gotcha, thanks!

Ceredyn, this just came up in Arena of Champions.  LandWalker is correct and this is clear from the RAW.  The part that was less clear was whether you could change facing while using your step to stand.  The AoC GMs ruled that you can, but a reasonable person could interpret the rules the other way too.

Thanks,  PS, anyone.

Does anyone have the template for the Hobgoblin character in both Banestorm and Dungeon Fantasy format?

Kromm has chimed in to say that Change Posture (Kneeling to Standing), when used as a step allows Face Change as a Step, ie. allows selecting any facing yo want.

Don't have the Dungeon Fantasy one, but here's the 4th ed Banestorm Hobgoglin at -15 points.

Attribute Modifiers: ST+1 [10]; DX+1 [20]; IQ-2 [-40]
Advantages: Night Vision 9 [9]
Disadvantages: Bad Temper (12) [-10]; Stubbornness [-5]
Racial Skills: Brawling (E) DX [1] 11

Great! This one works fine.  Please accept one free Hero Point.  :)

Ceredyn, here's the Hobgoblin template from Dungeon Fantasy for comparison:

15 points

Attribute Modifiers: ST+2 [20]; IQ-2 [-40]; HT+1 [10].
Secondary Characteristic Modifiers: HP+3 [6]; Will+2 [10];
   Per+2 [10].
Advantages: Infravision [10]; Rapid Healing [5]; Resistant to
   Metabolic Hazards (+3) [10]; Teeth (Fangs) [2].
Disadvantages: Appearance (Ugly) [-8]; Bad Temper (12) [-10];
   Social Stigma (Savage) [-10].
Height and weight as if ST was 3 levels higher.

thanks, I'll stick to Banestorm Hobgoblins. Otherwise there will be a run on Hobbies!  :)

Does anyone know about the rules that allow Dwarf made weapons to defy the laws of physics (ie, heavy flails that can be readied and parried in the same turn), etc?

Dungeon Fantasy includes the Dwarven option for weapons.  It eliminates the 'U' characteristic of parries with a weapon.  Dwarven Weapons cost 5x regular ones.

It's unrealistic, even for most GURPS fantasy games, but works fine for Dungeon Fantasy games intended to replicate DnD style bashfests.  Taken out of Dungeon Fantasy it's an unbalanced option, but that goes for almost everything in that book.  Pick and choose from it very carefully.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:27, Tue 25 May 2010.

You're damn tootin!   :)

Seconding kurlumbenus. Handle with care everything DF. That particular modifier makes for some fun weapons choices in the Arena, though ;-)

Oh, they're still fun even if they're not Dwarven.  The Dwarven mod just makes them clearly the best weapons - a dwarven axe is still miles cheaper than a broadsword, is heavier, and does more damage.

My preferred setting as far as GURPS is concerned is a fantasy setting, with bits and peices of DF. Since I usually run a slightly cinematic game to begin with (inasmuch as a Fantasy game with a TL 10 robot can be slightly cinematic). I usually don't see problems porting a few rules here and there.

One of the ways I balance the $ crock of the Dwarven Modifier on most weapons (which usually are a tenth as expensive) is to require such items to be fine or very fine. Consider it a point of dwarven pride if you must. I do.

This will require some working on things that are not allowed to be very fine quality, in which you may examine Kromm's response to A Very Fine Spear...

I usually say that they're the equivalent of Elven Chain, and not normally available for purchase - the cream of the Dwarven craftsmanship, usually given only to clan champions and the like.

Is there a non cinematic rule I'm not aware of that allows a person to take a 'retreat parry' against a thrown missile attack? I was of the understanding you can only 'retreat' from melee attacks. I thought if you wanted to dodge a missile attack, and wanted the +3 you had to take a 'diving dodge'. Anyone familiar with this issue?

Just against melee attacks afaik.

As I suspected. What are the rules for regular parrying against missile attacks, such as thrown spears, axes, etc.

-1 vs most, -2 if it's small like a shuriken or dart.

The Parry Missile Weapons skill gives a +4 vs large thrown and +2 vs small thrown instead, and allows parries against arrows and crossbow bolts.

Is that a Martial Arts technique that much be chosen from a designated Style?

PS, is the Perk "Strongbow" a cinematic or Non Cinematic Perk. What does it do?