In reply to GreenTongue (msg # 290):

Sadly, no. Haven't tried Showdown rules at all really, though Hellfrost in particular has been a bit of a curse for me. It's usually my most successful SW sales pitch, but I've never been able to keep a game going for long. Or, when I get people keen on trying Savage Worlds, they end up picking a different setting because they want to try something a bit further away from D&D than Norse and Old Germanic fantasy.

Of the Triple Ace Games settings I have (Hellfrost, Sundered Skies, and Necropolis), Sundered Skies has been the most popular, probably because it has the recognizable fantasy elements of D&D, but it's alien enough that it grabs the eye. Makes me think old D&D settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer could see some interesting Savage Worlds conversions if someone had the gumption.

I think PEGInc can ride this wave of RPG popularity and come out far ahead of where they might otherwise if they just push their strengths. Release an Explorer's Edition of the new rules set, for one. If they haven't already, release a new Test Drive packet, or even multiple. D&D 5E's big seller is it's accessibility, be it streaming games like Critical Role or Acquisitions Inc, the free rules PDF or $20 starter sets, organized play (love or hate it). Savage Worlds has the potential to be much more accessible, being rules light, and typically far more affordable than D&D.

Sorry, rambling at this point. :-P

I understand. Ramble on.

I'm guilt of running a "Beyond the Wall" game because it is enough like D&D to get interest even though I have most all of the "Hellfrost" basic stuff.

To me, the problem with "store bought" settings is putting your own spin on it.
People that know of the setting have set expectations which constrains things enough to stifle imagination.

I think that "Hellfrost" has good bones to support your own ideas on but then it is not RAW and there is push back.

I'd like to use the Resource Management to run a game around a settlement but that seems not to be Heroic enough to gather players.

Popularity is definitely a factor. Wiggy released a ton of information about the setting, but in small chunks, so it can be used to taste. That said, the setting isn't very well known, it's a niche fantasy setting in a niche RPG, I know most people I introduce to Savage Worlds will probably know only what I expose them to, or maybe some of PEGinc's settings like Rippers or Deadlands. Compare that with, say, the Forgotten Realms, and on a Tuesday in a random game store I might run into five people who will tell me that I'm playing a particular town or NPC the wrong way according to supplement 25B The Toilets of Triboar.

Thankfully, my current group consists of people who are almost all new to D&D, at least new to 5th Edition, and I think only one has more than a passing knowledge of the Realms. That said, I just sucked those poor bastards into Ravenloft, where they'll be for some time, possibly even through level 20.

I think "Hellfrost" is the 800# gorilla. If you play  SW, chances are you have heard of it.
As you say, if you play D&D, not likely.

While even it is huge, the Freelands is the generic place for starting, far as I can tell, so odds are a SW player will have expectations.
Still, KEEP HOPE ALIVE!! ;)

Most of the problem I have with Hellfrost is format: I have almost all the pdfs, but I prefer hard copy for learning a system and running at the table and the only print versions I can find are more than I can afford.

I was wanting to try it, but the opportunity never really came up

I didn't really care for Sundered Skies.

In reply to bashful_batrean (msg # 298):

I need to get dual monitors to make using PDFs easier as I have a lot of stuff in PDF format.
It's a lot easier to get to as the boxes with the game books get put away in out of the way places that are hard to reach.

Has it been your experience that because rolling is easy to do in SW that there is more of it than maybe there should be? I mean, instead of assuming the character is successful most of the time, there are calls to "Roll for it"?
For normal things with no "Life or Death" pressure involved.

I think the rolling too often is an issue with most games on the market.

Personally I think systems like D20 that give skills for everything is part of the issue because where skills on the character sheet work to help prompt possible responses, many GMs/players are now treating those as the only options.  That trap is what's leading to perception/notice rolls for everything, but since most games/GMs treat this as Pass/Fail rather than degrees of success, it can cripple a game and character options/player enjoyment as they completely miss something that should be obvious.

I've heard stories of people having to roll to notice the bodies hanging on gallows in the town square as they walked past.  Not rolls to recognize them, but to realize they are there.  This should only happen if there is something major to distract the characters' attention elsewhere and there should be a good description for why someone fails to notice the obvious.

In modern/future games with VR/AR, cell phones, and constant sensory input it makes a little more sense, but not so much in fantasy non-industrial or PA settings.

I'm guilty of it in my games as well - it's a crutch and an easy out for GMs, but I've seen a party of 8 all fail simple perception/notice checks to miss something the size of a 6-story building less than 20 feet away without anything to obscure their vision...  This is where things should be obvious or no need to roll and the success should allow degrees of information/details/opportunity for reacting to situations.

I like the 'failure as success with complications' idea of keeping things moving in a story.  (An example from SWGM Hangouts/Podcast was party fails a lock picking roll, they get the lock open but take to long and patrolling guards round the corner at the last second.)

This same logic can apply for all skills, but Notice/Perception tend to be overused in my experience.

Another good cue is to roll only when there is a disagreement as to what the outcome is.  I've seen some great games where players did really descriptive cinematic style attacks where the only roll was to see if they hit. not to perform all the cool stuff in the process.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:00, Tue 14 Jan 2020.

In reply to bashful_batrean (msg # 300):

"Another good cue is to roll only when there is a disagreement as to what the outcome is."
This 100%

I've always felt that if you have the skill on your sheet it means you can do it.
Rolling is, as you said, when there is doubt that anyone could do it, you can roll for it.

While some would say that makes characters too strong, I rarely see players not getting their characters in danger and that's without the GM trying to put them there.

There's always at least one player in a group that "pushes the Red Button".

In reply to GreenTongue (msg # 297):

Personally, I love the setting, it feels a bit more real than most modern fantasy settings for RPG's. It's clear Wiggy put a lot of care and attention to the culture of the world. That and I love some of the small touches: Undead didn't exist until the Goddess of Death went mad and threw open the gates of the underworld. Now a god that'd typically be your standard Paladin god has effectively taken her place. Sure, it has the standard great war of good and evil, but not many settings turn around and smack their world with a second great war between good and evil a mere handful of years after people barely survived the first.

I just wish there was a player's guide to the world. A small little handout I could give to players that didn't have setting secrets in it, just a quick rundown on the different lands and organizations so someone might know the difference between being from Angmark or the Crystalflow Confederacy.

Sundered Skies, especially with it's plot point campaign, is an excellent setting for a dark fantasy epic. Definitely not for everybody, of course, but I hope to one day run it through to its completion. Necropolis is interesting, but it's the Triple Ace Savage Setting I'm least eager to run, as far as the ones I own go. I have the books, I like the setting, but its never been one I've been eager to get a campaign going for.

In reply to Do0m (msg # 302):

I was in a game of dark heresy some years ago and some of the players just got bored with the rule mechanics so the GM ported our characters over to savage worlds using  the Necropolis setting / system it worked really well ...though a lot of people you ask about Necropolis say it's the poor man's version of Warhammer 40k I think it's a bit more than that

In reply to Do0m (msg # 302):

I presume your experience is with the original HellFrost.  Is the 2nd ed out/still in process?  I would love the chance to get the setting in print.

In reply to bashful_batrean (msg # 304):

I think that since Wiggy had a stroke that project is on hold.

In reply to GreenTongue (msg # 305):

That makes sense.  The search response I had gotten was from PEGINC forum and instead of picking up the posting date as 10-09-19, on my phone I saw 01-06-20  or 12-24-19 which made me think maybe the book was further along.  I knew about Wiggy's stroke, so that's why a more recent date (2020) surprised me.

How well can Mystery games be run with SW?

What would be the best setting for them? Rippers?

I would say use core books.  Rippers isn't really mystery- Deadlands Noir or ETU(maybe?) had guides for running detective types.  Third party Imago Mortis and Suzerain's Noir Knights (think that's the title) also had some suggestions.   Thin Blue Line is a police drama setting that might have some guides as well.

In reply to bashful_batrean (msg # 308):

I was thinking classic Sherlock Holmes style where supernatural is possible/likely.

Same applies for detective/mystery styles.  If you're just interested in period/setting info (as opposed to suggestions for detective/mystery stylings) then Red Sands (Space 1889 for SW), Rippers/Rippers Resurrected, All for One Regime Diabolique (French Revolution period) and Kerebos Club are all good for Victorian England setting info.

Kerebos Club (Victorian Supers), All for One, and Rippers (although Rippers without players getting grafts/implants) is probably more what you want.

Gaslight was SW Victorian England as well if I recall...

Well, I have Rippers and some misc references. Now if there is interest...

Always can do some testing solo I guess, as I have a method for figuring out clues that way.

In reply to GreenTongue (msg # 313):

Well the biggest thing to remember is have 2-4 ways of discovering "plot essential" clues, preferably without having to roll - or rolls against different skills.  The minute you have to have a success to move the game forward, everyone will fail and they shouldn't have to spend a benny to discover something essential to moving the plot/game forward.

Which method do you like better?
Using a logic matrix and adding clues till you solve it or having all the "facts" and disproving each until only the solution remains?

I've always been a fan of the 3 Clue Rule, myself. thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule

The basic idea is that for each conclusion you want your character to reach, you make up three clues. And then you make clues pointing to other places to look, and sprinkle those about. The more clues you provide, the better, because now you have failsafes if they miss something.

All three methods sound neat to me.  Preference would depend on the mood I'm in at the time or how I read the data including the clues as I can be dimwitted at times.  (Stray's seen me totally misread a clue I think...)