OOC.   Posted by Kaze no Kage.Group: 0
Daidoji Sakura
 player, 369 posts
 Crane Clan Shugenja
 Beautiful and Seductive
Mon 6 Apr 2009
at 13:08
Re: OOC
Hey guys,

Sorry I haven't posted ... still trying to sort through the events. Normally I would encourage the attackers to surrender, but that's not the Samurai way ... so now I have to figure something else out.
Bayushi Kenshin
 player, 30 posts
 Scorpion Junshin
 Kakita Bushi Academy
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 01:04
Re: OOC
I keep forgetting that my 9's explode on Iai/Ken as well as 10s ;(. Fortunately it didn't make a real difference yet ...
Daidoji Sakura
 player, 371 posts
 Crane Clan Shugenja
 Beautiful and Seductive
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 01:26
Re: OOC
*waves*

Ummm, Mr. GM? Can we discuss this new rule? It kinda screws my character ...

("Oh, that's just Sakura. We know that she trained in the Soshi School of magic -- and the Shosuro Deceiver Advanced School -- but we pretend that she is self trained ... for now").

*eeps*
Kitsuki Toshirou
 player, 13 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 03:03
Re: OOC
Bayushi Kenshin:
I keep forgetting that my 9's explode on Iai/Ken as well as 10s ;(. Fortunately it didn't make a real difference yet ...

Huh, how are you pulling that off?
Kitsuki Toshirou
 player, 14 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 03:04
Re: OOC
Daidoji Sakura:
*waves*

Ummm, Mr. GM? Can we discuss this new rule? It kinda screws my character ...

("Oh, that's just Sakura. We know that she trained in the Soshi School of magic -- and the Shosuro Deceiver Advanced School -- but we pretend that she is self trained ... for now").

*eeps*

A little confused by that rule, as well, since I can think of no reason that knowledge [Clan lore] or Knowledge [Family] shoudn't let one identify the schools.
Kedo
 player, 238 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 03:51
Re: OOC

 It's an interesting point actually.

 Anyone trained as a Bushi ought to be able to recognise other Bushi schools - stance, posture, guard position, equipment. Each clearly revolves around a core philosophy and expresses it through style and technique and it beggars belief that if you spend years learning the way of the sword that at some point you'd not be given a quickie course on 'this is what the other major schools look like so you know them if you see them, maybe'.

 Courtier schools are less obvious for the most part. Sure, you know that the man talking about evidence is Kitsuki-trained, but otherwise the waters are muddier, particularly since deception is a key part of man such schools. Also, there are fewer external 'tells' (though this is offset by the increased perceptiveness of the students).

 Shugenja on the other hand... well, we can't even imagine what they're like. It's safe to say that they do teach specific rites and ritual forms to their students and that those rites and forms are distinguishable to another Shugenja, but to what degree?
 Certainly you're not going to fool a school-trained Shugenja that you share his school if you don't - or at least not for very long - but you could probably con others with considerable success (they'd know no more than you do), except that if you were noticed doing it by a member of the school you're imitating, your ass is grass.

 As for Bayushi Kenshin?

 Well, maybe he just spends way the hell too much time with the books? ^_^
Daidoji Sayuri
 player, 13 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 06:48
Re: OOC
Problem is that the very existence of the Harriers as a separate school is a secret.
Lin Ru-Fang
 player, 24 posts
 Traveling Merchant
 I'll buy and sell you!
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 07:59
Re: OOC
Kedo:
Anyone trained as a Bushi ought to be able to recognise other Bushi schools - stance, posture, guard position, equipment. Each clearly revolves around a core philosophy and expresses it through style and technique and it beggars belief that if you spend years learning the way of the sword that at some point you'd not be given a quickie course on 'this is what the other major schools look like so you know them if you see them, maybe'.


When you generally take karate, you do not learn how to specifically recognize judo, muy thai, tae kwon do, various kung fu styles and such.

Furthermore, this is a land without television, without recording devices of any sort. So its not like the master of a dojo is going to be going in there saying "hello, class! Today we are going to be watching the video on how to recognize the Dojo techniques".

So there are only a few ways one is going to see a demonstration of such techniques. Either a dojo master knows the techniques of that other school or you have a member of that school come in and give a demonstration-- both HIGHLY unlikely as the clans would like to keep their techniques secret else they be useless.

Otherwise you'd have to see them in battle or in duels. The samurai battles, owing to the fact that they have NO defensive techniques at all (don't even have shields!) only last a few seconds-- hardly enough time to get a good fix on what techniques an opponent (or either of two combatants you are viewing) have in their repitraire. Particularly if you are IN the battle and concentrating on utilizing your own actions.

But, most importantly, the basic techniques-- those any martial artists knows a fighter will be utilizing 90% of the time are going to look pretty damn similar regardless of the school, because there are only a handful of ways to effectively fight with a tool like a katana-- so even if you are concentrating on what the opponent is doing for a few seconds, you'll probably get nothing out of it except to be able to tell if they've been trained at all or not.
Moto Gyatso
 player, 77 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 10:37
Re: OOC
"I keep forgetting that my 9's explode on Iai/Ken as well as 10s ;(. Fortunately it didn't make a real difference yet ..."

Wow you spent the exp to get Great Potential with Iajutsu and Kenjutsu? Seems excessive but whatever you think helps with your character.
Kedo
 player, 239 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 11:53
Re: OOC

Lin Ru-Fang:
Problem is that the very existence of the Harriers as a separate school is a secret


 Not really a problem in the least. Someone seeing them would either mistake them for the school they derived from beause their techniques are designed to imitate them or fail to recognise which school they actually use because it's a secret, but would probably realise that it's not one of the major ones.

Lin Ru-Fang:
When you generally take karate, you do not learn how to specifically recognize judo, muy thai, tae kwon do, various kung fu styles and such.


 True, but irrelevent. Bear in mind that this is Rokugan we're talking about here - a Bushi character isn't 'learning karate', they're spending the formative years of their life learning semi-mystical techniques, quite literally living their school rather than simply learning it.

Lin Ru-Fang:
Furthermore, this is a land without television, without recording devices of any sort. So its not like the master of a dojo is going to be going in there saying "hello, class! Today we are going to be watching the video on how to recognize the Dojo techniques".

So there are only a few ways one is going to see a demonstration of such techniques. Either a dojo master knows the techniques of that other school or you have a member of that school come in and give a demonstration-- both HIGHLY unlikely as the clans would like to keep their techniques secret else they be useless.


 Heh... speaking as someone who has spent the last six months as the part-time punching bag of a German friend reconstructing an Italian sword/dagger style from a period manual... Not so.
 Actually mastering the techniques presented in the manual would require years of work, but recognising the basic techniques is surprisingly simple from their description (one you get used to the weird language structure and terminology).

Lin Ru-Fang:
Otherwise you'd have to see them in battle or in duels. The samurai battles, owing to the fact that they have NO defensive techniques at all (don't even have shields!) only last a few seconds-- hardly enough time to get a good fix on what techniques an opponent (or either of two combatants you are viewing) have in their repitraire. Particularly if you are IN the battle and concentrating on utilizing your own actions.


 We haven't had to bang this drum very often... but Rokugan Isn't Bloody Japan. Just because we're playing Samurai characters doesn't mean we're playing real ones. Almost all of the Bushi schools teach defensive techniques. Hell, nearly half of Kedo's school abilities are defensive.

Lin Ru-Fang:
But, most importantly, the basic techniques-- those any martial artists knows a fighter will be utilizing 90% of the time are going to look pretty damn similar regardless of the school, because there are only a handful of ways to effectively fight with a tool like a katana-- so even if you are concentrating on what the opponent is doing for a few seconds, you'll probably get nothing out of it except to be able to tell if they've been trained at all or not.


 You might think that, but it's not really true. Axel (the German) has shown us two seperate manuals - the Italian one we're working from at the moment and a Talhoffer-contemporary who's name escapes me. Meanwhile another friend has been working on the weapon stuff that goes with Aikido whose name also escapes me. All three include sections on the use of 'a sword' (with surprisingly loose definitions on the proportions of said sword, including an extremely cocky 'it doesn't matter, I'll beat you anyway' entry in the Italian manual). All three have many interchangeable positions and techniques using the same principles to achieve the same effects.
 All three are visually distinctive, utilising different postures (one of the key starting positions of the Italian school faces you away from your opponent looking over your shoulder and though the unarmed portion uses Aikido-style-wrestling techniques it generally uses limbs rather than hips as the focal point for throws and body deflections).
Bayushi Kenshin
 player, 31 posts
 Scorpion Junshin
 Kakita Bushi Academy
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 12:56
Re: OOC
Moto Gyatso:
"I keep forgetting that my 9's explode on Iai/Ken as well as 10s ;(. Fortunately it didn't make a real difference yet ..."

Wow you spent the exp to get Great Potential with Iajutsu and Kenjutsu? Seems excessive but whatever you think helps with your character.


Well, caveat being that it hasn't made a difference yet:

No, he has Great Potential for Iaijutsu; he also has the Kakita Academy's School technique. Which, to be honest, still confuses the <censored> out of me. It's my understanding (which may be flawed) that he gets the Great Potential only because he's using his Iai skill to substitute.
Kedo
 player, 240 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 13:09
Re: OOC

 I think it depends upon your reading... You're using your Iajutsu as if it were Kenutsu, which makes it a GM's call on whether or not you get to use an Iajutsu-based advantage.

 Since you need ten ranks in the skill to qualify however, I for one say 'what the hell'.

 What, tell me you'd noticed the ten ranks thing?
Bayushi Kenshin
 player, 32 posts
 Scorpion Junshin
 Kakita Bushi Academy
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 14:39
Re: OOC
ROFL!

Yes, he has 10 Ranks of Iaijutsu -- and pretty much nothing else. I wanted to find out what having 10 ranks in a skill does for you -- turns out the answer is "practically nothing" ... with very few exceptions (Stealth and Defense being the only two that come to mind).

I've read AEG's stuff on it, and it's still confusing to me. As I understand it:

He can only use the Kenjutsu Mastery Abilities and Emphases that he actually has, but he does so as if the skill were his Iai skill (10). But he can still use any Iai Mastery bonuses that apply ... which there really is only one (the free raise at Rank 5). Otherwise, the "ignoring the first X (10) points of wound penalty" is sorta nice ... but not enough to spend all those points on.

If Ichiro actually gets to fight, you'll see what I mean. Same school, but he'll kick my butt. The key words here being "well rounded" ...
Moto Gyatso
 player, 79 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 14:55
Re: OOC
Makes sense to me for the Iaijutsu dice to still explode when you use them outside of an Iaijutsu duel. Long as it's the same skill should work the same way even if for different applications.
Kitsuki Toshirou
 player, 15 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 16:26
Re: OOC
The specifically addressed this very rules issue in a sticky post on the AEG L5R rules forum, though i'm to lazy to look it up atm :-)
Kedo
 player, 241 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 17:32
Re: OOC

 It certainly seems valid, GM willing - but I have to admit that the idea of a character with ten ranks in anything and no other significant abilities leaves an extremely sour taste in my mouth, conceptually speaking.

 Kedo for example is meant to be (and is) a thoroughly competent bushi with a philosophical bent who's been required by fate to produce a sword. To that end he has a couple of skills at five (all of which were raised to that level in-game, though I'll confess) and a bunch of ones and threes (curiously, only one 'two' but hey, statistical anomalies happen.

 Most traits at three, highest trait four... In other words, pretty balanced across the range. The only reason he's been rampaging up and down the game world is because the dice roller seems rather fond of him (a fondness I must admit that I reciprocate fully).

 Still, to each their own - you can't go around telling people what they should play.
Daidoji Sayuri
 player, 15 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 18:40
Re: OOC
Kenshin -was- made as an experimental character, so eh.

Sayuri is, of course, similarly unfocused and (literally) airheaded. Lots of 1s and 3s, with one 2 and one 5. She only managed to whack as much enemy as she did because...well, because I put Void into a good roll.
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 448 posts
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 18:51
Re: OOC
regarding Great Potential (iaijutsu/kenjutsu) I can't find the errata on it, so I'm going to interim rule that it does apply to both, assuming you've got the Crane or Dragon techniques.  If someone finds the actual rule I'll change it ^_^

The real advantage to GP is in the unlimited number of raises you can make--after all with all those dice to roll, more than 5 raises wouldn't really affect your success rate all that much ^_^

regarding the new rules for school identification:  the purpose of the rule is that after observing an enemy fight/cast/argue you can identify the core principles of their school.  Someone who trains in wing chun kung fu can, in fact, identify the core theory of a tae kwon do, judo, jeet kun do, aikido, etc. stylist; though they wouldn't be able to identify the difference between, say, Shotokan karate and Shoshinryu karate without further training, mechanically represented by ranks in Know the School.  So, for Daidoji Sakura, someone who saw her cast (and didn't have Know the School) would know that she's a shugenja who's good at casting with subtlety (rather than her actual school).
Bayushi Kenshin
 player, 33 posts
 Scorpion Junshin
 Kakita Bushi Academy
Tue 7 Apr 2009
at 20:03
Re: OOC
There is an IC reason for that: he's a Scorpion, raised by the Crane (the Scorpion Children were left with the Crane during the Clan War). No one trusted him, and he was a very angry little boy. He only had one outlet for his anger.

Iaijutsu.

Eventually his anger went away. But his Iai is pretty much all he had; so Iai is pretty much all he is.

At the moment.

As far as unlimited raises, I've never really found that to be very useful. The number of raises is already either your skill or void (whichever is higher). I have yet to see a character where that limit was a deciding factor. At rank 10 he has unlimited raises anyway ... but who would ever need to call more than 10 raises? Without a School Technique (Akodo or Bayushi to be precise), I can't see that being terribly useful.

Oh, as far as KtS goes -- don't forget the "unskilled" rules. Make a raw int roll, no explosions. You may -- or may not -- get something. If you don't like that, I suggest you bone up on your Acting &/or Deception skills ... ;p
Daidoji Sakura
 player, 372 posts
 Crane Clan Shugenja
 Beautiful and Seductive
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 17:23
Re: OOC
Question for the GM (I was going to ask in private, but then I realized that this was more general):

What skill does one use to hide one's school when someone uses KtS against them. Acting?

*wry grin*

I need to know where Sakura is going to be spending some XP ...
Moto Gyatso
 player, 80 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 17:25
Re: OOC
Could just use casting with subtlty? Considering how few big boom spells you use you could probably manage it quite easily most of the time.
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 450 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 18:06
Re: OOC
I'm going to have to think of something special for Shugenja as their styles aren't nearly as obvious as Bushi styles.  Using our martial arts analogy, the difference between judo and karate are pretty easy to spot.  But different shugenja schools are more like different denominations of Christianity or sects of Buddhism.  With a lot of study I could tell you the differences between the rituals of the Presbyterian Church and the Lutheran Church or Zen Buddhism and Pure Land Buddhism.

I know there's a mechanical benefit to KtS for bushi and courtier schools, but is there one for shugenja?
Daidoji Sakura
 player, 373 posts
 Crane Clan Shugenja
 Beautiful and Seductive
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 18:37
Re: OOC
*nods*

There's a mechanical benefit for all schools. For Shugenja, it makes it more difficult for them to cast spells on you. If it helps, the 3ER calls specifically for Acting as the counter. "Regular" 3E makes no such mention though ...
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 451 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 18:45
Re: OOC
sounds like Acting is your answer ^_^ pretending to be another school will take two raises (to make it on par with the feint maneuver) but you can always take an emphasis in whatever other school you're pretending to be.  The emphasis for a ronin school will give you the normal emphasis bonus and a free raise (given the variety of ronin styles out there, pretending to be one of them is easier than emulating a more established school)
Moto Gyatso
 player, 81 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 21:02
Re: OOC
And for those of us practicing a school beyond what most of Rokugan will have seen?