OOC.   Posted by Kaze no Kage.Group: 0
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 452 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 21:37
Re: OOC
in that case, you're not pretending to be anything and will either be identified as a ronin school or the closest recognizable school--in your case Iuchi Shugenja ^_^
Lin Ru-Fang
 player, 25 posts
 Traveling Merchant
 I'll buy and sell you!
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 22:20
Re: OOC
Kedo:
You might think that, but it's not really true. Axel (the German) has shown us two seperate manuals - the Italian one we're working from at the moment and a Talhoffer-contemporary who's name escapes me. Meanwhile another friend has been working on the weapon stuff that goes with Aikido whose name also escapes me. All three include sections on the use of 'a sword' (with surprisingly loose definitions on the proportions of said sword, including an extremely cocky 'it doesn't matter, I'll beat you anyway' entry in the Italian manual). All three have many interchangeable positions and techniques using the same principles to achieve the same effects.
 All three are visually distinctive, utilising different postures (one of the key starting positions of the Italian school faces you away from your opponent looking over your shoulder and though the unarmed portion uses Aikido-style-wrestling techniques it generally uses limbs rather than hips as the focal point for throws and body deflections).


Yes, but you are talking about western weapons here-- two-bladed straight weapons cabale of stabbing as well as cutting and built thick and pointed enough to be able to stab someone. Such a weapon can be used in a multitude of ways-- it is not as flexible of a weapon as say a club which can strike from any angle and still be effective, but with a standard dagger or sword you still have 3 different edges/ends you can effectively attack with.

A katana is a single-bladed sword that doesn't function effectively as a stabbing weapon. It is faster and sharper than a western sword that might be considered "clumsy" in comparison, but there is only one edge of a katana you'd be using to attack an opponent. Given a lack of use of shields (yes, Rokugan is not Japan and in real Japan people used spears in real battle and were not ignorant of the use of shields like Rokugani) and that generally you don't smash katana together in a battle and that there are a limited number of areas on the body in which you can strike a lethal blow... the actual number of ways to effectively use a katana in battle are much less than other weapons and every school worth its salt is going to cover the most basic, obvious ones that are going to be used in battle 90% of the time.

So unless the opponent is using an outlandish technique, such as jumping 15 feet in the air and coming down sword-first at the enemy, it would be really difficult to be able to tell what school of battle anyone is going to be using from a scant few seconds of battle.
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 453 posts
Thu 9 Apr 2009
at 23:12
Re: OOC
but there are many different ways to enter into each of those strikes.  Further, different schools will concentrate on different lethal areas.  Even if all of the different Schools were derivative of each other (by no means the case) there would still be enough stylistic differences that they could be identified.  Looking at Danzan Ryu Jujutsu vs. Small Circle Jujitsu (Small Circle being derived directly from Danzan Ryu) you're faced with the same issues--limited number of techniques, limited number of effective maneuvers, etc.--the training of Danzan Ryu emphasizes close in grip fighting, ground work, and throws; whereas Small Circle has more midrange techniques, smoother transitional flow, and a greater emphasis on joint locks; even though all of the base techniques are the same, the way in which they're performed is subtly (sometimes dramatically) different because of the different emphases in training.  Someone who spends their life studying sword techniques is going to automatically recognize subtle differences (position of the blade, footwork, intent of the strike) and let's not ignore the agregeous differences (jumping 15 feet into the air to strike is straight out of the Hare school, keeping the blade sheathed until the last moment is the hallmark of the Crane school, two blades is the signature of the Dragon school, etc.)
Lin Ru-Fang
 player, 26 posts
 Traveling Merchant
 I'll buy and sell you!
Fri 10 Apr 2009
at 00:29
Re: OOC
But to spend your life studying different examples and being able to identify small differences is contingent upon examples of those differences being readily available for demonstration and dissection by the onlookers, does it not?

But where would such examples be available? Dragons tend to stick with Dragons, Cranes tend to stick with Cranes, Crabs tend to stick with Crabs, etc.

If there were people running around Rokugan constantly demonstrating and disseminating the various sword styles in enough detail that all the necessary subtle differences could be picked out in the midst of a fight.

For instance, it is fine to intellectually understand the difference between karate and tae kwon do, but it's totally different to be in the middle of fighting someone not knowing which of the two styles they are utilizing-- they'll probably be acting and reacting to whatever your style is and thus blur any clear mental differentiation quite quickly. If you look at a UFC fight for instance or a mix martial arts contest, it would be fine to intellectually know what the ideals for differnet styles are-- but when you actually see them in action they all fight similarly enough that whatever that ideal was, it is quickly thrown out the window and the fighters end up using almost exclusively the most basic and crude, but effective attacks.

Of course, in the game system I believe there is an advantage called "Know the School" which covers whether or not a character has seen a proper enough demonstration of any given style to be able to have any real hope of identifying and countering it, isn't there?
Kedo
 player, 242 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Fri 10 Apr 2009
at 00:56
Re: OOC
Lin Ru-Fang:
Yes, but you are talking about western weapons here-- two-bladed straight weapons cabale of stabbing as well as cutting and built thick and pointed enough to be able to stab someone.


 You'd be surprised. Extremely surprised.

 I'm not terribly expert in oriental weapons or their use, but I've a fair bit of practical experience in the occidental traditions of interpersonal mayhem and there's one fundamental rule that underpins every single one of them from Pancration to Talhofer.
 If it's stupid and it works... it isn't stupid.

 In other words, from a given series of techniques and styles, any series of actions that harms the foe and protects the user from harm is 'valid'.

 I can't imagine Miyamoto Musashi disagreeing with that one for a minute.

 Translating this basic understanding to Rokugan, where a fight can in fact take some time to resolve from the initial exchange of psychological intimidation through 'showing of stance' and finally the exchange of blows between warriors that are as well versed in defensive techniques as offensive ones... Well, merely saying that 'you have to use the sword like this, it's the only way it works' is utterly without basis in either my own limited real-world experience or (rather more relevently) the rules of L5R.

Lin Ru-Fang:
But to spend your life studying different examples and being able to identify small differences is contingent upon examples of those differences being readily available for demonstration and dissection by the onlookers, does it not?


 No, not really.

 Actually performing a school technique requires that you learn it from the masters of the school, are taught the secrets of posture, balance, meditation and harmony that turn mere skill into the sublime. You can have ten ranks in Kenjtsu, and still not turn that mastery into a school technique without great investments of time, insight and the blessing of the fortunes.

 Merely demonstrating the posture used to employ that technique however is far, far easier. I can take up the half-dozen or so basic stances of two different western sword schools well enough to be identified as using them, but I'm rubbish at taking them much further into implementation.

Lin Ru-Fang:
If you look at a UFC fight for instance or a mix martial arts contest, it would be fine to intellectually know what the ideals for differnet styles are-- but when you actually see them in action they all fight similarly enough that whatever that ideal was, it is quickly thrown out the window and the fighters end up using almost exclusively the most basic and crude, but effective attacks.


 Curiously, this point is neatly destroyed by something some other fellow said a while back... dragons tend to stick with dragons, cranes tend to stick with cranes, crabs tend to stick with crabs, etc.
 People just don't have the open exposure to other peoples innermost techniques, and therefore there isn't the fervant cross-pollination of ideas between the schools that exists in reality.
 Also of course, school techniques exist on a level beyond merely 'being seen and copied'. They possess an inherent spiritual element that is not susceptable to being duplicated through mere observation.

Lin Ru-Fang:
Of course, in the game system I believe there is an advantage called "Know the School" which covers whether or not a character has seen a proper enough demonstration of any given style to be able to have any real hope of identifying and countering it, isn't there?


 No, you're very slightly mistaken... what there is is a set of skills called 'Know the School' that cover whether or not a character has studied another school in sufficient depth to receive a significant bonus to countering it and its techniques.
 Simply identifying what school another character is using without gaining a major dice advantage is not covered by these skills, so we're looking elsewhere for it.

This message was last edited by the player at 00:57, Fri 10 Apr 2009.

Kaze no Kage
 GM, 454 posts
Fri 10 Apr 2009
at 14:56
Re: OOC
okay, this discussion on the identification of schools has stopped being useful and is now closed.  what was an interesting academic discussion of martial training and translating reality into game terms has now become an "I'm right, and you're not" situation--albeit with more interesting flavor text.  I deleted the most recent posts from both parties because I felt that the final arguments made in the previous posts were sufficient and no more need be said.

any further discussion needs to be taken up with me via PM.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled game
Kedo
 player, 244 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Sat 18 Apr 2009
at 23:11
Re: OOC

 Come on guys, it's been days... what happened to our new 'The slow deserve to perish' rule? ^_^
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 458 posts
Sat 18 Apr 2009
at 23:24
Re: OOC
that's my fault, work's been a bit crazy, I'll get something up today...
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 459 posts
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 04:08
Re: OOC
sorry guys, it's going to be a little bit longer, my brother-in-law was in a motorcycle accident yesterday (he's okay, a little banged up, but okay)
Moto Gyatso
 player, 83 posts
Mon 20 Apr 2009
at 19:33
Re: OOC
Jeeze oh.
Hope he's recovering well.
Kitsuki Toshirou
 player, 21 posts
Mon 4 May 2009
at 04:52
Re: OOC
Looks like we lost Aki... GM, have you PM'd him by any chance?
Doji Banteki
 player, 1 post
Tue 5 May 2009
at 05:12
Re: OOC
Hey guys. I'm the new kid in town, thought I'd take a sec to say hi and introduce myself. In the following weeks or months, expect to find yourself uttering the following words:
"How in the hell do we get ourselves out of this one?"

Cheers.
Kedo
 player, 248 posts
 Would you stand
 upon the mountain?
Tue 5 May 2009
at 05:43
Re: OOC

 Which will make you an interesting counterpoint to Kedo, who spends most of his time wondering (but not saying aloud) 'How in the hell did we get ourselves into this one?'

 Which is of course a question usually best answered by a meaningful look Sakura's way. ^_-

 Welcome aboard.
Daidoji Sakura
 player, 378 posts
 Crane Clan Shugenja
 Beautiful and Seductive
Tue 5 May 2009
at 13:30
Re: OOC
*laughs*

I've got the Lying Darkness (Shadow Spawn) and the entire Daidoji Harrier contingent at Toshi Ranbo trying to kill me ... I'll probably not even notice!
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 466 posts
Tue 12 May 2009
at 04:07
Re: OOC
sorry, about the long wait, RL hit a really busy stretch, I'll try to have something up by tomorrow
Bayushi Kenshin
 player, 40 posts
 Scorpion Junshin
 Kakita Bushi Academy
Wed 13 May 2009
at 13:39
Re: OOC
*twiddles his thumbs* ;p
Daidoji Sayuri
 player, 20 posts
Fri 15 May 2009
at 13:11
Re: OOC
Interesting definition of "tomorrow" you have. :P
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 471 posts
Fri 15 May 2009
at 17:53
Re: OOC
the new thread was up on 5/12, just like I said it would be ^_^;;; it just was a little later on the 12th ^_^
Doji Kanisai
 player, 25 posts
 Crane fealty,
 Crab heritage.
Fri 15 May 2009
at 18:59
Re: OOC
Well, he's right, he had the thread up, it just took me until last night to realize that we were supposed to actually walk in...
Daidoji Sakura
 player, 382 posts
 Crane Clan Shugenja
 Beautiful and Seductive
Fri 15 May 2009
at 20:17
Re: OOC
*chuckles*

Well, to be fair, the only reason I knew that was because I've been playing in this game for so long (other than the GM, I'm the only "original" left).
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 472 posts
Sat 16 May 2009
at 02:03
Re: OOC
sorry about that, I should've made that clear, I set up the scene, but you guys make your own entrance ^_^;;;
Kitsuki Toshirou
 player, 24 posts
Sat 16 May 2009
at 05:36
Re: OOC
Is that thread where I'm going as well, GM?
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 473 posts
Sat 16 May 2009
at 06:19
Re: OOC
yup ^_^
Doji Banteki
 player, 3 posts
Sat 16 May 2009
at 19:28
Re: OOC
So when is it ok to post again in that thread? I'm not 100% sure who all is entering this scene... could we maybe get a heads-up when the last person has posted?
Kaze no Kage
 GM, 474 posts
Sat 16 May 2009
at 20:23
Re: OOC
in social conversation scenes, it's always okay to post whenever you feel like it--keep the conversation moving and all that ^_^ we've all got real life responsibilities and can't always make posts whenever we'd like to so feel free to post as the inspiration strikes ^_^