in that case, you're not pretending to be anything and will either be identified as a ronin school or the closest recognizable school--in your case Iuchi Shugenja ^_^

Yes, but you are talking about western weapons here-- two-bladed straight weapons cabale of stabbing as well as cutting and built thick and pointed enough to be able to stab someone. Such a weapon can be used in a multitude of ways-- it is not as flexible of a weapon as say a club which can strike from any angle and still be effective, but with a standard dagger or sword you still have 3 different edges/ends you can effectively attack with.

A katana is a single-bladed sword that doesn't function effectively as a stabbing weapon. It is faster and sharper than a western sword that might be considered "clumsy" in comparison, but there is only one edge of a katana you'd be using to attack an opponent. Given a lack of use of shields (yes, Rokugan is not Japan and in real Japan people used spears in real battle and were not ignorant of the use of shields like Rokugani) and that generally you don't smash katana together in a battle and that there are a limited number of areas on the body in which you can strike a lethal blow... the actual number of ways to effectively use a katana in battle are much less than other weapons and every school worth its salt is going to cover the most basic, obvious ones that are going to be used in battle 90% of the time.

So unless the opponent is using an outlandish technique, such as jumping 15 feet in the air and coming down sword-first at the enemy, it would be really difficult to be able to tell what school of battle anyone is going to be using from a scant few seconds of battle.

but there are many different ways to enter into each of those strikes.  Further, different schools will concentrate on different lethal areas.  Even if all of the different Schools were derivative of each other (by no means the case) there would still be enough stylistic differences that they could be identified.  Looking at Danzan Ryu Jujutsu vs. Small Circle Jujitsu (Small Circle being derived directly from Danzan Ryu) you're faced with the same issues--limited number of techniques, limited number of effective maneuvers, etc.--the training of Danzan Ryu emphasizes close in grip fighting, ground work, and throws; whereas Small Circle has more midrange techniques, smoother transitional flow, and a greater emphasis on joint locks; even though all of the base techniques are the same, the way in which they're performed is subtly (sometimes dramatically) different because of the different emphases in training.  Someone who spends their life studying sword techniques is going to automatically recognize subtle differences (position of the blade, footwork, intent of the strike) and let's not ignore the agregeous differences (jumping 15 feet into the air to strike is straight out of the Hare school, keeping the blade sheathed until the last moment is the hallmark of the Crane school, two blades is the signature of the Dragon school, etc.)

But to spend your life studying different examples and being able to identify small differences is contingent upon examples of those differences being readily available for demonstration and dissection by the onlookers, does it not?

But where would such examples be available? Dragons tend to stick with Dragons, Cranes tend to stick with Cranes, Crabs tend to stick with Crabs, etc.

If there were people running around Rokugan constantly demonstrating and disseminating the various sword styles in enough detail that all the necessary subtle differences could be picked out in the midst of a fight.

For instance, it is fine to intellectually understand the difference between karate and tae kwon do, but it's totally different to be in the middle of fighting someone not knowing which of the two styles they are utilizing-- they'll probably be acting and reacting to whatever your style is and thus blur any clear mental differentiation quite quickly. If you look at a UFC fight for instance or a mix martial arts contest, it would be fine to intellectually know what the ideals for differnet styles are-- but when you actually see them in action they all fight similarly enough that whatever that ideal was, it is quickly thrown out the window and the fighters end up using almost exclusively the most basic and crude, but effective attacks.

Of course, in the game system I believe there is an advantage called "Know the School" which covers whether or not a character has seen a proper enough demonstration of any given style to be able to have any real hope of identifying and countering it, isn't there?

 You'd be surprised. Extremely surprised.

 I'm not terribly expert in oriental weapons or their use, but I've a fair bit of practical experience in the occidental traditions of interpersonal mayhem and there's one fundamental rule that underpins every single one of them from Pancration to Talhofer.
 If it's stupid and it works... it isn't stupid.

 In other words, from a given series of techniques and styles, any series of actions that harms the foe and protects the user from harm is 'valid'.

 I can't imagine Miyamoto Musashi disagreeing with that one for a minute.

 Translating this basic understanding to Rokugan, where a fight can in fact take some time to resolve from the initial exchange of psychological intimidation through 'showing of stance' and finally the exchange of blows between warriors that are as well versed in defensive techniques as offensive ones... Well, merely saying that 'you have to use the sword like this, it's the only way it works' is utterly without basis in either my own limited real-world experience or (rather more relevently) the rules of L5R.



 No, not really.

 Actually performing a school technique requires that you learn it from the masters of the school, are taught the secrets of posture, balance, meditation and harmony that turn mere skill into the sublime. You can have ten ranks in Kenjtsu, and still not turn that mastery into a school technique without great investments of time, insight and the blessing of the fortunes.

 Merely demonstrating the posture used to employ that technique however is far, far easier. I can take up the half-dozen or so basic stances of two different western sword schools well enough to be identified as using them, but I'm rubbish at taking them much further into implementation.



 Curiously, this point is neatly destroyed by something some other fellow said a while back... dragons tend to stick with dragons, cranes tend to stick with cranes, crabs tend to stick with crabs, etc.
 People just don't have the open exposure to other peoples innermost techniques, and therefore there isn't the fervant cross-pollination of ideas between the schools that exists in reality.
 Also of course, school techniques exist on a level beyond merely 'being seen and copied'. They possess an inherent spiritual element that is not susceptable to being duplicated through mere observation.



 No, you're very slightly mistaken... what there is is a set of skills called 'Know the School' that cover whether or not a character has studied another school in sufficient depth to receive a significant bonus to countering it and its techniques.
 Simply identifying what school another character is using without gaining a major dice advantage is not covered by these skills, so we're looking elsewhere for it.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:57, Fri 10 Apr 2009.

okay, this discussion on the identification of schools has stopped being useful and is now closed.  what was an interesting academic discussion of martial training and translating reality into game terms has now become an "I'm right, and you're not" situation--albeit with more interesting flavor text.  I deleted the most recent posts from both parties because I felt that the final arguments made in the previous posts were sufficient and no more need be said.

any further discussion needs to be taken up with me via PM.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled game

 Come on guys, it's been days... what happened to our new 'The slow deserve to perish' rule? ^_^

that's my fault, work's been a bit crazy, I'll get something up today...

sorry guys, it's going to be a little bit longer, my brother-in-law was in a motorcycle accident yesterday (he's okay, a little banged up, but okay)

Jeeze oh.
Hope he's recovering well.

Looks like we lost Aki... GM, have you PM'd him by any chance?

Hey guys. I'm the new kid in town, thought I'd take a sec to say hi and introduce myself. In the following weeks or months, expect to find yourself uttering the following words:
"How in the hell do we get ourselves out of this one?"

Cheers.

 Which will make you an interesting counterpoint to Kedo, who spends most of his time wondering (but not saying aloud) 'How in the hell did we get ourselves into this one?'

 Which is of course a question usually best answered by a meaningful look Sakura's way. ^_-

 Welcome aboard.

*laughs*

I've got the Lying Darkness (Shadow Spawn) and the entire Daidoji Harrier contingent at Toshi Ranbo trying to kill me ... I'll probably not even notice!

sorry, about the long wait, RL hit a really busy stretch, I'll try to have something up by tomorrow

*twiddles his thumbs* ;p

Interesting definition of "tomorrow" you have. :P

the new thread was up on 5/12, just like I said it would be ^_^;;; it just was a little later on the 12th ^_^

Well, he's right, he had the thread up, it just took me until last night to realize that we were supposed to actually walk in...

*chuckles*

Well, to be fair, the only reason I knew that was because I've been playing in this game for so long (other than the GM, I'm the only "original" left).

sorry about that, I should've made that clear, I set up the scene, but you guys make your own entrance ^_^;;;

Is that thread where I'm going as well, GM?

yup ^_^

So when is it ok to post again in that thread? I'm not 100% sure who all is entering this scene... could we maybe get a heads-up when the last person has posted?

in social conversation scenes, it's always okay to post whenever you feel like it--keep the conversation moving and all that ^_^ we've all got real life responsibilities and can't always make posts whenever we'd like to so feel free to post as the inspiration strikes ^_^