Flaw?

SOP

I thought SOP was to nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Burning oil = 1st level
Orbital nukes = 5th level

I sense the GURPS in you.

I think you might have missed the 1 from in front of that 5th level.  That might only be my experience here though.

Never played GURPS.  Played with some DMs that used flaws, but never really liked them. I played champions for years with disadvantages though.

Ah.  My mistake.

Hey gang,

I've been thinking about my Mazes and Minotaurs game, and on a tangent, 5th Edition D&D, and I wondered what you guys and girls think. This started because I don't use the optional critical hit rules in the M&M game, and the players called me on it. As you'll see, I think they're a bit unbalancing if you bear with me.

Mazes and Minotaurs gives warrior and specialist classes a Weapon of Choice. With that particular weapon, for an attack you roll two d20s, and take the higher one. Magicians don't get this martial option.

Now, 5e players, you can see where this is going. In 5e, if your character has advantage over your opponent, you roll two d20s and take the higher. Advantage can happen in several ways.

Now, rolling two d20s for each attack, M&M-style or 5th D&D-style with advantage, guarantees an increased chance of critical hits - which is fine if the M&M result table was IMO better thought out. Creatures can't crit you back in M&M, and in M&M you can't fumble unless your Luck score is 12 or less. Check it out.

Critical Hits
Whenever a player-character’s Melee or Missile roll
exceeds the target’s EDC by 10 or more, the attack
is a critical hit. Critical hits represent exceptionally
well-aimed (or incredibly lucky) blows or shots.
Whenever a critical hit occurs, a new D20 roll must
be made on the appropriate table (see next page).
This rule only applies to player-characters’ attacks;
creatures and NPCs (no matter how powerful) can
never inflict critical hits. This restriction reflects the
fact that player-characters are the heroes of the
story and thus enjoy a greater degree of combat
fortune and dramatic stature.

Melee Critical Hits
1-4 = Stunned!
Opponent takes normal damage and is -2 to
attack and EDC next round.
5-8 = Dazed!
Opponent takes normal damage and is -4 to
attack and EDC next round.
9-12 = Knocked Down!
Opponent takes normal damage and is knocked
down and must spend a round getting back up.
Prone characters suffer a -4 penalty to EDC.
13-14 = Armor Strap Cut!
Opponent takes normal damage and loses a
randomly chosen piece of armor. If the opponent
wears no armor, roll an extra D6 for damage.
15-16 = Weapon/Shield Broken!
Opponent’s weapon is broken – unless he has a
shield, in which case the shield is rendered
useless. Opponent also takes normal damage. If
the opponent has no weapon (other than its
natural ones), roll an extra D6 for damage.
17-18 = Grievous Wound!
Roll an extra D6 for damage.
19 = Maimed!
Opponent takes 2 extra dice of damage and
loses a randomly chosen limb.
20 = Instant Kill!
Attacker beheads (or otherwise instantly kills) his
opponent (even if multiple-headed).

Missile Critical Hits
1-5 = Stunned!
Opponent takes normal damage and is -2 to
attack and EDC next round.
6-10 = Dazed!
Opponent takes normal damage and is -4 to
attack and EDC next round.
11-16 = Knocked Down!
Opponent takes normal damage and is knocked
down and must spend a round getting back up.
Prone characters are at -4 EDC in melee.
17-18 = Grievous Wound!
Roll an extra D6 for damage.
19 = Hit Vital Spot!
Opponent takes 2 extra dice of damage and
loses a randomly chosen limb.
20 = Instant Kill!
Target shot between the eyes, through the heart
or other instantly fatal wound.

What do you think? Against monsters that fight without weapons or armor, you've got 7 numbers out of 20 (in melee) that add extra damage or flat out kill your opponent. At least the missile results only have 4 numbers out of 20 that do that. I'd appreciate your input.

Well, I think that Nobles who roll nat 20s should do more than 1 damage!

Jokes aside, I would agree that these critical rules both overcomplicates the game and overpowers the characters. It would slow down play everytime someone gets a crit and then give the players far too much of an advantage, one you would be hard pressed to build around due to it's randomness.

Perhaps a simple houserule to clear it up and still make criticals exist would be to have you/players roll an additional d4(d6 would be too powerful imo) for damage after they get a crit?

As a rule, the more powerful the players, the more powerful the monsters...except in Shani's case IMO; the more powerful she is, the tamer the monsters.

It’s always a Red Flag to me when players want something.  It’s a sure bet they see the advantage of having no disadvantages.

I’ve not played M&M so I can’t help too much from a mechanical point of view, but having been involved in gaming and it’s design for a long time I can say that I’m not a fan of lopsided rules either for or against players.  In this case I would say you have judged it well not to use this option.

I dislike damage rules that favour one side over another.  What's the point?  The most exciting adventures that everyone remembers are when the party scrapes through by the skin of their teeth.

Agree 100%! Often times those same players won't stop with this request, either. That's really not very fun.

That's role playing!

Which part?  Scraping through by the skin of your teeth or having new game rules that further disadvantage opponents?

Scraping through by the skin of your teeth.

Agreed.

IMO:  If PC can crit, monsters can too.

Yup, and you too can die. It happens.

Since this is a 1e dnd game I would say don't add the crit/stun rules.  If you wanted to add that a 20 always hits, and a 1 always misses I would think that would be keeping in the spirit of 1e.  I would support that rule.

I like crits, those don't seem too excessive, but I prefer them to happen a bit less often. If you've got advantage and crit on a 20 that's 1 in 10 being a crit, if you then instant kill on a follow up 20 that's 1 in 200 attacks instant killing the opponent, which isn't going to come up an awful lot, and is a fun scene for a fighter player, though I don't like instant kill crits*, that should be left to hp.  The extra damage is going to happen 3% of attacks, which isn't very much either, it's actually less than you'd get from just having a 20 do max damage, which is a 5% (10% if they have advantage) increase.

I've never been a fan of advantage (actually more disadvantage) giving it all the time is insane!  You're going to have a lot more damage from that than the crits, about 25% more hits if your PC needed a 10 to hit, which translates to 25% more damage.

I prefer the confirmation system, as it makes crits a bit less common, since you have to hit again after rolling a 20, it also tends to make crits against heavily armored PCs happen less as the follow up doesn't happen as often by mooks.  Of course this system doesn't have monsters do crits, so there's that.  I don't like increasing the crit ranges as 3e-5e do, as that makes them happen a bit too often.

I'm trying a fighters of 2nd lv+ only crit system in my LL game, but includes NPC fighters.
 I have yet to see how that's going to work out though.  I might consider adding thieves to be able to crit since it seems as much their thing, but then I think, if fighters and thieves get to crit, then probably demi-humans should too since they're all part fighter and thief, and that only leaves out clerics and m-us, which seems unfair, and suddenly everyone's able to crit again.

*(Edit) I did have instant kill crits in my favorite campaigns, but you had to roll a 20 3x in a row and hit again (1 in 8000+ chance) it did come up once or twice a campaign still, it was very memorable.  Once in 200 seems way too often, If you have 6 people who can crit that's once every 33 rounds, which might happen once per game (a lot longer in pbp though)
This message was last edited by the player at 19:39, Tue 04 Feb 2020.

An easier way is to have both players and monsters do double damage on a natural 20.

I like that since opponents get the same advantage on a natural 20.

I have never played M&M so I can only say that the rule looks to provide a more "cinematic" feel to the heroes. Basically giving them the potential to one-hit-kill or at least knockdown the bad guys. On the face of it, it will unbalance the game toward the players, but there may be mechanics that offset it.

I don't like critical hits and fumbles. They typically are the opposite of the M&M rule as I read it, in that they end up taking a toll on the PCs. Generally there are more monsters, so they will roll more dice and will generate more crits against the PCs; they will generate more fumbles as well, but everyone just laughs when hobgoblin number 4 loses his axe, not as much as when Paul the Paladin does the same.

I never use fumbles and for crits, I like max damage, not double damage. That keeps everything within the base parameters of the weapons being used. i.e. a dagger will never do more than 4 points damage.

A dagger is only ever 4 points of damage... I find that parameter to be very limiting.

A dagger is a fatal weapon if used by a professional, against even the toughest fighter. If a humanoid has 30 hpts and you stab them in the throat, the above-mentioned rule requires you to do it 8 times at max damage to be fatal. In reality, a single blow in a well-placed area will end the life of any man.

A mechanism must exist for this facet to be replicated in the game world.