The Mess (General OOC)   Posted by Cap'n Rae.Group: 0
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2976 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sat 25 Apr 2015
at 23:46
The Mess (General OOC)

A place to hang out and shoot the shit.

-
Anders Mattson
 player, 123 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sat 25 Apr 2015
at 23:47
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
*takes a pot-shot at a big pile of dung* Bang!
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2980 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 22 May 2015
at 21:12
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

I will likely be offline until, realistically, Monday. If it'll be any longer, I'll try to post to that effect from my phone.

I'd like to try to get this game up and running again by the first week in June, or thereabouts.

-
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2981 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 27 May 2015
at 02:26
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Well, we're in the new place, but it hasn't been easy. Two days of busting my ass, following by a day in bed with a nasty stomach virus, followed by two more days of busting my ass and we're still only 25% settled in. So far, this summer vacation has been anything but. After an insanely frustrating couple of days (scheduling issues complicated by Memorial Day), I finally got the internet to work. It's a long, boring-ass story so I won't trouble you with the details but, as a highlight, I did successfully- using nothing but a photo I took on my phone of a functional one- rewire a faulty phone jack so that I could get my desktop on to the net. It worked, obviously, but that was literally five minutes ago so...

It's going to take a while to catch up on everything and start posting again, but I'll try to put a dent in my PbP obligations tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

So, whose still out there, fixing to play?

-
Craig Sutherland
 player, 702 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Wed 27 May 2015
at 02:43
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Ready to go. I moved about six weeks ago and have at least 50% of my stuff still in boxes and only got the gun safe in a couple of weeks ago using a forklift to get up the stairs.

Cymon.
Konrad Bayer
 player, 1912 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Wed 27 May 2015
at 17:09
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
I'm here.
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1193 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Wed 27 May 2015
at 17:32
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Ready to go.
Anders Mattson
 player, 124 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Wed 27 May 2015
at 18:39
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Ready to set sail!
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1631 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Wed 27 May 2015
at 19:04
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
My time has been very limited but, I am going to give it a go!  I will try my best to keep up with the pace.

John
Mark Scully
 player, 1 post
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Wed 27 May 2015
at 19:45
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
I'm ready to hitch a ride on the riverboat Queen...
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 1 post
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Wed 27 May 2015
at 21:55
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Good to hook
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2984 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Thu 28 May 2015
at 18:26
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Everyone should be able to view the map now. I forgot to change the access protocol- sorry about that.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 18:27, Thu 28 May 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1694 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sat 30 May 2015
at 02:09
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Hi there.  Am back from my holiday and just saying hello.  Will catch up and post tomorrow.

Ta,

Andy
Jelena Tamm
 player, 1 post
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sat 30 May 2015
at 15:06
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Also saying hello; I'm transferring over from Rae's other game.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1633 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sat 30 May 2015
at 16:38
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Welcome to all of the new faces and transfers!
Jan Cerny
 player, 1697 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sat 30 May 2015
at 16:42
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
In reply to Robert 'Tuck' Tucker (msg # 15):

Seconded and welcome.
Anders Mattson
 player, 127 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sat 30 May 2015
at 18:38
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Welcome, cherries! Now Anders isn't the newest addition anymore. :)
Eric Phillips
 player, 1 post
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Sun 31 May 2015
at 15:42
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
The great tragedy of this setting is that we can't use IC Game of Thrones references to refer to the dwarf as Tyrion, the Imp, etc.  :P

Hi all!

This message was last edited by the player at 16:01, Sun 31 May 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1698 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 31 May 2015
at 15:59
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Anders Mattson:
"You want a machinegun along, captain, or should take a rifle?" The Finn could handle both though he was a bit better shot with the rifles.

If Rae will let us resolve this now I would suggest that Anders bring the MG.

Ta,

Andy.



EDIT - I presume that Gryzyech is with Konrad's team.

This message was last edited by the player at 16:03, Sun 31 May 2015.

Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2989 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 31 May 2015
at 19:55
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

OK, back and forth dialogue could take ages to work out if we reciprocally post a line at a time so I took a couple of liberties with the last post. If any of you would like to speak with Sir Cwik before he heads back to his castle, feel free. I'll most likely be able to post responses fairly promptly.

Otherwise, operate under the following. Assuming that you're going to take Sir Cwik up on his invitation, you have about 8 hours to work in the ferry yard. I'd like a rough idea of what your PC would like to do during that time- I'll make the appropriate rolls and let you know the results of your labors. After that, anyone who would like to attend will head to the castle for the promised feast.

On the other hand, if you want to bounce and leave Swiecie without treating with Sir Petr, that's fine too. You don't have to accept Cwik's invitation.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

P.S. I'm trying to reconstruct how much gold the Krolowa has on board (aside from personal stocks). There's been a couple of mentions of gold bullets but I can't remember any details of such. Help?

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 20:12, Sun 31 May 2015.

Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1200 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Sun 31 May 2015
at 20:09
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Tirion, which sounds the same is a Welsh Girl's name which means kind or gentle which suggests that George didn't know it existed when he gave the Imp the name. Unless he's really, really ironic...
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2991 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 1 Jun 2015
at 16:03
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Next turn goes up tomorrow. If y'all want to do any salvage and/or improvements to the tug's defenses, intended actions need to be posted IC (or they don't happen). I'll also need a decision on whether you plan to accept the castellan's invitation to dinner.

-
Jelena Tamm
 player, 2 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Mon 1 Jun 2015
at 17:56
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Eric Phillips:
The great tragedy of this setting is that we can't use IC Game of Thrones references to refer to the dwarf as Tyrion, the Imp, etc.  :P

Hi all!


You could, just - the first novel was published in RL in 1996.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1701 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 2 Jun 2015
at 18:45
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Rae, can anyone hear the lone man's shouting and is it in English?  I presume so but wanted to check.

Ta,

Andy
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2993 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Tue 2 Jun 2015
at 18:59
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Folks on the northern end of the complex can hear, barely, him yelling, but can't make out the language he's using or specifically what he's saying. It's more of a meta post, to let y'all know that this is a PC intro scenario.

-
Jan Cerny
 player, 1702 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 2 Jun 2015
at 19:27
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Thanks.

Studying the map further there is a building to the west of Jan's position.  Is that a ruin?

There are also several boats due east of his position on the satellite image at what appears to be a secondary dock.  Are those there in the game and, if they are, what condition are they in?

Ta,

Andy
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2994 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Tue 2 Jun 2015
at 20:00
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Building is destroyed. There's a barge at the spot you mentioned, but it's 3/4 submerged and orange with rust.

-
Jan Cerny
 player, 1703 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 2 Jun 2015
at 20:11
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 27):

Thanks.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1704 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Wed 3 Jun 2015
at 06:01
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Minh Quyen:
Quyen remains still and watches the difficult to see action north of her position. "I do not have a radio." she informs Thijs. She didn't think he had one either... but someone in the shore party would come looking to see what was happening. Until then she just kept low.

Jinny, you must have missed this but Jan instructed Quyen to get a radio out of the stores in message #24 of the IC thread.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 3 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Wed 3 Jun 2015
at 16:20
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Jelena Tamm is coming along nicely; if you guys want someone who can fix radio, she's your woman.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2995 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 3 Jun 2015
at 18:21
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Good news, Jelena.

@All: I'm trying to be less anal retentive. It's a character flaw that masquerades as a virtue so it's particularly hard for me to reign in at times. I don't mind if y'all use colors other than blue for your PC's dialogue, but I must insist that you use the monotype font for radio transmissions. This keys players whose PCs have radio access, but who may not be reading others' posts carefully, that their PC can "hear" that particular dialogue. That, and please italicize text spoken in languages other than English.

Thanks, all!

-
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1637 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Wed 3 Jun 2015
at 18:48
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Cap'n Rae:
Good news, Jelena.

@All: I'm trying to be less anal retentive. It's a character flaw that masquerades as a virtue so it's particularly hard for me to reign in at times. I don't mind if y'all use colors other than blue for your PC's dialogue, but I must insist that you use the monotype font for radio transmissions. This keys players whose PCs have radio access, but who may not be reading others' posts carefully, that their PC can "hear" that particular dialogue. That, and please italicize text spoken in languages other than English.

Thanks, all!

-

Apologies Rae.  I usually try and do that for radio transmissions but, my shortness of time to post I completely forgot.  I have edited my post to reflect Robert's radio transmission.

This message was last edited by the player at 18:49, Wed 03 June 2015.

Jelena Tamm
 player, 4 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Thu 4 Jun 2015
at 13:53
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Cap'n Rae:
That, and please italicize text spoken in languages other than English.

Thanks, all!

-


I also make it a general rule in games I run that any posts in non-English should have an English translation with them for the benefit of the GM and other players.

I also generally mis-quote the original Casino Royale novel when I do that, but that's just me.

****
Any suggestions on what to spend my $5000 of equipment funds on?
Eric Phillips
 player, 4 posts
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 14:51
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Does anyone have any idea what the Junior Weapons Sergeant's callsign numbering would be for an ODA?  i.e. Kewlword Integer Integer?  Nomad One Five, Hades Seven Four, etc.  I'm lost in the sauce on this one.
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1204 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 14:58
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Advising you on what to buy would be metagaming a bit as we're always short and having a nice injection would probably make it too easy.

I'd suggest you get what you'd need to survive and then anything cool you want. if you have money left trade goods would be good: that means we can buy what we need later, maybe, but it won't be easy.

I know this is metagaming but Mariusz is dangerously low on paprika and marjoram.
Eric Phillips
 player, 5 posts
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 15:05
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Whoa.. for a second I didn't realize Mark's message was about Jelena and I thought Wow... low on integers and whole numbers?  An injection of two digits might make things too easy?  Damn, the struggle is real with this game!  :P

Going to have more caffeine now.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1639 posts
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 16:31
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

This message was deleted by the player at 16:31, Sat 06 June 2015.

Jelena Tamm
 player, 5 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 16:34
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
In reply to Eric Phillips (msg # 36):

Nice one. That made me smile. I've picked my gear anyway.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 6 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 16:41
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Quick question - what's the carrying capacity of a bicycle? It's not stated in the rules.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1640 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 16:51
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Does anyone hear the transmission of Phillips?
Eric Phillips
 player, 7 posts
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 17:12
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Jelena Tamm:
Quick question - what's the carrying capacity of a bicycle? It's not stated in the rules.


Special Note—Bicycles
A bicycle has no load of its own; a character riding a bicycle can carry his personal load. He travels at half speed if burdened. If unable to ride (see the four terrain descriptions above) a character may walk his bicycle at his off-road walking speed; its weight does not count against his load limit.  (pg. 152 in my 2.2 PDF)

This message was last edited by the player at 17:16, Sat 06 June 2015.

Thijs van Lincklaen
 player, 165 posts
 Sergeant-Majoor, DMC
 DaleN
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 19:46
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Sorry I haven't posted recently; I have been away unexpectedly for a few days.  Before I post, may I assume that Minh actually has obtained a radio as instructed, or Thijs somehow has done so?
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2997 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 20:52
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Thijs van Lincklaen:
Sorry I haven't posted recently; I have been away unexpectedly for a few days.  Before I post, may I assume that Minh actually has obtained a radio as instructed, or Thijs somehow has done so?


Yes, that's fine. Assume that Minh has one. You can be passing it back and forth.

-
Jelena Tamm
 player, 7 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sat 6 Jun 2015
at 21:58
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Eric Phillips:
Jelena Tamm:
Quick question - what's the carrying capacity of a bicycle? It's not stated in the rules.


Special Note—Bicycles
A bicycle has no load of its own; a character riding a bicycle can carry his personal load. He travels at half speed if burdened. If unable to ride (see the four terrain descriptions above) a character may walk his bicycle at his off-road walking speed; its weight does not count against his load limit.  (pg. 152 in my 2.2 PDF)


OK, thanks very much.
Minh Quyen
 player, 714 posts
 SP4, U.S. Army MP
 JinnySong2
Sun 7 Jun 2015
at 16:06
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
I deleted out some of my last post to reflect having brought a radio.

I've added AN/PRC-119
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 2999 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 7 Jun 2015
at 21:51
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

OK, so I think we pretty much all know where this scenario is going. All three groups are going to link up very soon. We all need to just make that happen. This will involve some talking, so please get to it. Use the OOC to plan and clarify, and take care of the meat of it in the IC. I'm around if you have any questions.

The other thing is that the partisans still need to be chased off. Tuck's three shots were a good start, but not enough to convince them to completely call off the pursuit and withdraw from the area. A bit more of a show ought to do the trick.

I'm really enjoying GM'ing this campaign for y'all again. Much of that enjoyment is down to the active and substantial involvement that many of you have been putting in since the relaunch. To you, I give my thanks. I'm very much looking forward to continuing this Vistula Cruise with y'all.

Cheers,

Rae

-
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1642 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 7 Jun 2015
at 23:50
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Cap'n Rae:
OK, so I think we pretty much all know where this scenario is going. All three groups are going to link up very soon. We all need to just make that happen. This will involve some talking, so please get to it. Use the OOC to plan and clarify, and take care of the meat of it in the IC. I'm around if you have any questions.

The other thing is that the partisans still need to be chased off. Tuck's three shots were a good start, but not enough to convince them to completely call off the pursuit and withdraw from the area. A bit more of a show ought to do the trick.

I'm really enjoying GM'ing this campaign for y'all again. Much of that enjoyment is down to the active and substantial involvement that many of you have been putting in since the relaunch. To you, I give my thanks. I'm very much looking forward to continuing this Vistula Cruise with y'all.

Cheers,

Rae

-

Glad to be back and great to have you back Rae!
Konrad Bayer
 player, 1921 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 00:10
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Cap'n Rae:
Tuck's three shots were a good start, but not enough to convince them to completely call off the pursuit and withdraw from the area. A bit more of a show ought to do the trick.


Six shots. Bayer fired as well.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3000 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 00:47
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Konrad Bayer:
Six shots. Bayer fired as well.


Oh, man- sorry I missed that. I think I must have been focusing on the map. Bayer doesn't really have LOS to either group of pursuers. He'd pretty much have to move to Tucker's OP to engage with direct fire. He could, however, fire some shots in the air without having to move. Please advise and I will edit.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 00:54, Mon 08 June 2015.

Konrad Bayer
 player, 1922 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 01:25
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 49):

What about Quyen/Thijs' position? I indicated that he was moving up behind them. Would that do? If not, then in the air (since I still want to be moving up towards the center).
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3001 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 01:31
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Konrad Bayer:
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 49):

What about Quyen/Thijs' position? I indicated that he was moving up behind them. Would that do? If not, then in the air (since I still want to be moving up towards the center).


I still think he wouldn't be able to see either hunting group- too many trees between them and him. He would, however, be present when Phillips arrives and that could help speed things along. Either way, I'll have him fire three shots. Is that OK?

-
Konrad Bayer
 player, 1923 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 01:32
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Yeah in the air is fine then. Pew pew pew...
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3002 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 01:42
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Konrad Bayer:
Yeah in the air is fine then. Pew pew pew...


This is what I added:

As soon as Konrad hears Tucker open fire, he squeezes off three evenly-spaced shots into the sky above him, simply trying to create enough racket to give the two teams on man-hunters the idea that they were up against more than just a lone wolf. He moved towards Thijs and Minh's position as he did so, wanting to be in a better position to coordinate the action and receive the incoming supposed U.S. Special Forces fellow.

Konrad -3 rounds

... I also added a bit about Konrad being with Minh and Thijs when Phillips arrives.

Thanks for rolling with this.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 01:47, Mon 08 June 2015.

Jelena Tamm
 player, 8 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 13:43
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
I think Jelena Tamm's sheet is more or less done. I hope the bicycle comes in handy.
Eric Phillips
 player, 11 posts
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 14:14
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
I'm in training for the next two weeks with lots of homework, so my posts may be a bit laconic at times...

This message was last edited by the player at 14:14, Mon 08 June 2015.

Thijs van Lincklaen
 player, 168 posts
 Sergeant-Majoor, DMC
 DaleN
Mon 8 Jun 2015
at 16:42
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
Someone remind me later -- Thijs wants to obtain a Kevlar helmet if/when one becomes available.  Though he's used to his Korps Mariniers-issue steel helmet, the weight difference might be helpful.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1706 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 9 Jun 2015
at 17:13
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
A quick question over the radio frequencies.  Is the Queen on the same frequency as the shore party?  I presume so and that would mean that we've just heard Polaris' transmission.  Is that correct?

Ta,

Andy.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3003 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Tue 9 Jun 2015
at 17:22
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Yes. All are aware of both frequencies, thanks to Griet informing everyone of the new USSF frequency over the Kommando net.

-
Jan Cerny
 player, 1708 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 9 Jun 2015
at 17:35
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 58):

Thanks for clarifying.

Ta,

Andy.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1711 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Wed 10 Jun 2015
at 18:54
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
One minor thing for the new PCs.  Jan (pronounced Yahn for anyone that didn't know) doesn't actually advertise the fact that he's FFL.  That was a mistake by his original player before I took him over that really should never have been made.  He's obviously told a number of the long standing crew members and they know he knew a DSDG agent in Warsaw but he doesn't introduce himself as FFL to new arrivals and has no insignia on his fatigues.  He would probably come across as a bit of an enigma - a Czech native, who speaks English fairly well but with a touch of a French accent and who addresses Konrad as "Capitaine".

This message was last edited by the player at 18:59, Wed 10 June 2015.

Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3005 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 10 Jun 2015
at 18:56
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

I will delete mention of Jan's FFL affiliation from the last turn post.

-
Jan Cerny
 player, 1712 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Wed 10 Jun 2015
at 19:00
Re: The Mess (General OOC)
It's not a problem.  I just thought that I should mention it.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3007 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sat 13 Jun 2015
at 15:49
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Today should be a GM narrative turn post day but only one PC has posted IC since the last turn (thanks, Mark) so I'll hold off a bit. If you're not sure how your PC fits into the current narrative thread, you can always post your input here in the OOC. Think of it as virtual table-talk. Either way, your involvement in this campaign is important.

Thanks.

-
Jelena Tamm
 player, 9 posts
Sat 13 Jun 2015
at 21:51
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

This message was deleted by the player at 21:51, Sat 13 June 2015.

Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3008 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 01:47
A Very Important Message

OK, we need to have an open, frank discussion regarding rank and command organization as the game moves forward. First of all, we need to approach this with the following principles foremost in mind:

1. This is supposed to be fun.

2. No one likes to be bossed around.

3. Teamwork makes the dream work.

4. Deliberately disruptive playing will not be tolerated by the GM.

5. As GM, I respect your right to roleplay your PC (i.e. stay true to your PC) as you see fit, as long as this does not violate 1, 2, & 3.

We're essentially merging two distinct groups of players here. Many of you have known each other for a long time. Shared history has instilled a certain comfort level and mutual respect. At the same time, some of the more unpleasant episodes that took place during that shared history have made a few of the old guard leery of newcomers.

So, let's start by looking back. Originally, the command structure of what became known as Konrad's Kommandos was fairly loose. Decision-making when not under fire was more or less democratic but in combat, Konrad became the de facto commanding officer. This made/makes a lot of sense, from both a RL and a gameplay POV. For the most part, it worked. Adam (an NPC), as the owner and captain of the tug, got final say when it came to matters relating to said. This authority/responsibility has, to a degree, been passed on to Griet (a secondary PC).

Over time, the command structure evolved. Many players did not actively involve themselves in decision-making and planning and, as a result, the burden of command fell progressively heavier on Fuse/Konrad's soldiers. In general, the other players seemed content to allow him to take on more command authority. At times, due to disruptive players/RP'ing, Konrad was forced to pull rank. At the time, this was necessary and appropriate. The remaining players who've been on board the longest have come to trust Konrad implicitly and respect his authority unquestioningly.

Overall, IMPO, Fuse/Konrad's done an admirable job as de facto leader. It's not an easy role to play. In fact, it's tough- trying to keep everyone involved, solicit feedback and input while still driving the game forward. He's done this well for nearly the entire run of this game. I'm not for one second suggesting or encouraging Konrad's leadership position be usurped, or Konrad demoted.

We now have a new batch of players that want to be more involved in decision-making. They're good players who give it their all and don't enjoy creating intra-party conflict. These are not Legbreakers or Laws here. I want to accommodate them without alienating the veterans. As long as we all proceed with the common good in mind, I don't see why we can't make this work. I don't think that we need a radical reworking of the tug's command structure. We just need to come to an understanding. Compromise is probably necessary- give and take.

Please work this out like reasonable, respectful adults. One of the two major reasons that I shut this game down (and kept it shut down for over a year) was because of intra-party, intra-player conflict that was not being resolved IC or OOC.

We just got started again. Let's all take a deep breath and make this work. Hopefully, these are just growing pains and will soon pass. I've got big plans for this game and I don't want to have to pull the plug again.

Rae

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 01:57, Sun 14 June 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1714 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 07:58
Re: A Very Important Message
Ok, following on from Rae's post let's resolve this OOC so that we can then sort it out IC.

As Rae said this is purely an IC point because we know that the players of the four new characters are all good players (keys138, Dave Ross, Spartan-117 and Tegyrius) who roleplay in a constructive manner.  We want you in the game because you will certainly contribute to and improve this game (not that it was bad but you know what I mean).

The IC problem is as follows:

Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane:
"Should you need our assistance, we will be happy to offer what help we can," she continues to Konrad.  "Unfortunately, we cannot place ourselves under your direct command.  I have no problem with your freelancers and make no judgement to your choices, but my companions and I are still active NATO forces.  I can promise you that we will do our best to not unnecessarily bring conflict to your vessel and will do our best to ensure its continued survival.  Should you feel that I violate this promise, we will leave at the first opportunity.  Our skills and intel should suffice in return for transit, I assure you, but if you need more direct financial assistance, we have a little of that, too." 

This statement IC is a problem because of the historical issues Rae has outlined above and a group who are essentially saying "we'll travel with you but not follow your orders" are actually likely to receive the response "no thanks" from a number of the existing characters.

Therefore because this is an RPG and because we need to combine the two groups together so that Rae is just running one game several of us are essentially required to not roleplay our characters correctly based on their in game experiences.  I know that you didn't mean to do this but you're effectively asking us to compromise our characters to integrate the new characters.

Please look at it from our characters perspective.  We live and travel on the Queen and that provides a defensible base from which to operate.  Four people who we've just met are asking us to transport them but aren't willing to follow our leaders orders.  They can add some skills and bodies (which are useful but we can survive without) but nothing material like food, medical supplies, specialist weapons or ammo.  For Jan I would certainly think that he would say "no thanks" to letting them come aboard and travel with us because they add little immediately beyond some intel about what is downriver and represent a greater security risk than someone who says "yes, I will follow orders".  They will be more like passengers travelling with us rather than fellow crew members and that not something that makes sense to me.

My two suggestions on a solution are as follows:

 - The new arrivals amend their position to "we will follow your orders as long as it does not compromise our NATO loyalties".  This could be suggested IC by Konrad as a solution.

 - The new arrivals have something we want to "pay" for passage.  This would allow them to retain their unit loyalties while giving us a reason to transport them.  It needs to be something that we need however.  The intel about what's downriver might be enough but something physical would help.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?  I can't speak for others but I suspect that they will agree.  We just need to get over this hump in the road so that merging in the new group with the existing characters makes sense.  We've done that successfully in Fuse's game and we just need to work it out here.

Sorry to be a pedantic pain in the arse.

Andy.
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1209 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 08:20
Re: A Very Important Message
I have been reluctant to post about this because I am in a quandary.
First: As a player:

I am more than happy to see the new players who are all excellent. They are going to make a really bug difference to the game and I'm looking forward to seeing how the game develops with their fantastic input.
I'm JJ in Fuse's game and I can say that the integration there has been smooth, especially a some of the heavy lifting of planning has been taken from my shoulders there. I am sure the same thing will happen here.
No-one wants the new players to just roll over and break character.
I support them whole-heartedly and we will make this work even if we have to break character.

However: As a character, both Mariusz and Griet, there's a problem.
Not with the new players but with history. I'll outline it a little for new players so you can see where I'm coming from:

The Wistula Queen and NATO Special Forces:
1) John Yazzie: Marine Scout Sniper who disappeared taking vital supplies when he needed to continue "his mission".
2) Clarence Milk: DIA/CIA operative who had project Reset. The Russians pursuing him led to us being constantly attacked, losing crew and having Adam loose an eye. In addition we nearly lost the Queen over it and did lose the barge and some heavy weapons.
3) Guy whose name I've forgotten: Dropped a gas grenade to throw off pursuit which left Griet and several other characters affected. If the GM hadn't fudged the driver's rolls (rules wise he couldn't have passed), we'd have all died.
4) Jason Kasparov: Turned on us and tried to blow us up, Mariusz' mentor died saving the crew.

With these incidents in mind, it is difficult for the characters to just accept a bunch of NATO troops on board who are specifically still pursuing their own agenda.

What I am proposing is this: Konrad can radio Griet who makes the final call. She won't be happy about the situation but will want the INTEL and state that if the NATO crew don't want to join, they will not be treated as crew, they'll camp on deck and eat their own rations and as soon as the INTEL is handed over Griet will decide how far that information gets them.

It will be awkward and people are free to post thought misgivings and bitching as we will all know it's about the characters not the players. As soon as we have a couple of fights together under our belt everything will be fine.

How does this sound:
Konrad is leery about giving in but contacts Griet
Griet will be a bitch about it and treat the new guys with suspicion bordering on rudeness (especially as there's a strong female leader: it'll be like MEAN GIRLS if we're not careful!) but needs the INTEL and will treat them as "passengers"
Once we're underway, characters can find individual ways to make inter-party bonds until we forge a true bond under fire.
That way, Konrad doesn't look a pussy for giving in, Griet won't look insane for making the same mistakes of trusting NATO troops following their own agenda as her father did and the new players can stay true to their character concepts as well.
How does that sound?

Looks like Jan's said pretty much the same thing.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1716 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 08:35
Re: A Very Important Message
A minor point to add.

I think that we would require the passengers to have unloaded weapons while on the Queen.  They won't be disarmed and can keep ammo on them but won't have mags loaded.  Does that make sense?
Jelena Tamm
 player, 10 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 09:41
Re: A Very Important Message
Jan Cerny:
A minor point to add.

I think that we would require the passengers to have unloaded weapons while on the Queen.  They won't be disarmed and can keep ammo on them but won't have mags loaded.  Does that make sense?


That makes sense to me.
Mark Scully
 player, 8 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 10:32
Re: A Very Important Message
I'm about to go out so can't respond to this at the moment, but from my point of view I think there are options in Mark and Andy's posts that may be workable.

I'll reply in detail later.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1717 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 11:13
Re: A Very Important Message
Another option could be to create a connection between two characters, one in each group, so that someone could vouch for the new characters.

It's a pity that Stonner is dead as I think that he was another Navy Seal.

Are there any of the new characters who could have met some FFL troops and therefore know Jan?  Could that be an option?

Or does this not work as an option?
Anastasjia Kovac
 player, 3 posts
 U.S. State Department
 Tegyrius
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 11:29
Re: A Very Important Message
Ana used to live in Germany (location unspecified) and has worked at the Prague, Moscow, and Warsaw embassies during her time with the State Department.  There's also some undefined foreign service time in her State history.
Mark Scully
 player, 9 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 13:29
Re: A Very Important Message
OK...

Firstly, Mark and Andy, your points are well made. Thank you.

Andy, one of your first points was to ask me to look at things from your character's perspective, so let me start by giving my character's perspective in return. And so we are clear, this is the IC thoughts / mind set of Mark Scully not Dave Ross (I am using Mark Scully's first name to make clear I am referring to him and not Mark101 btw - giving my PC the same given name as a player was a coincidence)

Mark Scully is still a serving member of the armed forces of the United States of America. He has an established chain of command which he follows. In his view  your allegiances are questionable. You are a self proclaimed Free Company, which makes you at best mercenaries, at worst deserters. Konrad's opening exchange included asking if we have any gold. That reinforced much of what Mark Scully was thinking in terms of your mercenary nature. Either way, through his lens you have chosen to turn your back on much of what Mark holds dear. He is still actively fighting the War and sees that as doing his duty to his country. And as you are by your own admission a Free Company operating to your own agenda his view is that whilst Konrad may be your commander he no longer has any NATO rank.

So from Mark Scully's point of view it does not matter what is or is not on the table. Were it purely down to him he would already have said "no thanks" and moved on by now. Andy, you state that from Jan's point of view the newcomers have little to offer to make a deal attractive. From Mark Scully's point of view he's looking at it through an entirely different lens.  The only thing the Vistula Queen has to offer him is a way to move north and he does not feel that the Vistula Queen is his only option to do that. The Kommandos don't like the deal on the table? Ok, move on. No harm, no foul. The deal doesn't need to be attractive.

I've tried to express that point of view in IC postings but I appreciate his contributions so far have all been inner monologue rather than dialogue. Again, this is a reflection on the fact that Lizzie Kane is his leader. She speaks for the group in this matter.

However, again as I hope has been made clear by my IC postings, Mark Scully is extremely loyal to Lizzie Kane. Mark Scully is not the decision maker here. She is (and that is not an attempt by me, Dave, to pass ownership of this to Keys138 - that is a summary of my character's point of view and how I am trying to play him).

So, that's Mark Scully.

Now, here's what I think.

Firstly,

This

quote:
"Should you need our assistance, we will be happy to offer what help we can," she continues to Konrad.  "Unfortunately, we cannot place ourselves under your direct command.  I have no problem with your freelancers and make no judgement to your choices, but my companions and I are still active NATO forces.  I can promise you that we will do our best to not unnecessarily bring conflict to your vessel and will do our best to ensure its continued survival.  Should you feel that I violate this promise, we will leave at the first opportunity.  Our skills and intel should suffice in return for transit, I assure you, but if you need more direct financial assistance, we have a little of that, too."

...has possibly been taken in a more black and white way than was intended.

The intent was to establish Lizzie as leader of the USN group and Konrad as leader of the Kommandos. The two would work together as co leaders (presumably with Griet as well). If Konrad wanted to issue orders to the USN group he would go through Lizzie. If she agreed the orders would go down the chain and be obeyed. Only if she disagreed with the orders would there be a veto. Andy, this is, I feel, essentially a variation of sorts of your first suggestion below.

Yes, Lizzie retains a right of veto, however as has been stated several times in the last couple of messages this is an role playing game that we all wish to play together. That veto is, in effect a Deus ex machina - to paraphrase wikipedia a plot device to resolve a seemingly unsolvable problem . It allows us to board the boat on terms that everyone feels is keeping it real from their PC's POV and will not (in my opinion) have an adverse impact on the game. Yes, it may lead to occasions where characters may disagree whilst behind the scenes the players are in complete harmony.

So clearly that remains my preferred option.

However...if we park that to the side for the moment and look at the options put forward

This...

quote:
  - The new arrivals amend their position to "we will follow your orders as long as it does not compromise our NATO loyalties".  This could be suggested IC by Konrad as a solution.

As stated, I think this is a variation of what I've just outlined above (only what's mentioned above doesn't reference following Konrad's orders)

This...

quote:
Another option could be to create a connection between two characters, one in each group, so that someone could vouch for the new characters.

It's a pity that Stonner is dead as I think that he was another Navy Seal.

Are there any of the new characters who could have met some FFL troops and therefore know Jan?  Could that be an option?

Or does this not work as an option?

Is probably workable but it would not be my preferred option. For one I think it's a bit clichéd and for two I don't think it resolves the chain of command question. If we did go down that road Scully has been a Navy SEAL for a number of years so it's not impossible he may have crossed paths with the French Foreign Legion at some point in time.

This...

quote:
- The new arrivals have something we want to "pay" for passage.  This would allow them to retain their unit loyalties while giving us a reason to transport them.  It needs to be something that we need however.  The intel about what's downriver might be enough but something physical would help.

...and this
quote:
What I am proposing is this: Konrad can radio Griet who makes the final call. She won't be happy about the situation but will want the INTEL and state that if the NATO crew don't want to join, they will not be treated as crew, they'll camp on deck and eat their own rations and as soon as the INTEL is handed over Griet will decide how far that information gets them.

It will be awkward and people are free to post thought misgivings and bitching as we will all know it's about the characters not the players. As soon as we have a couple of fights together under our belt everything will be fine.

How does this sound:
Konrad is leery about giving in but contacts Griet
Griet will be a bitch about it and treat the new guys with suspicion bordering on rudeness (especially as there's a strong female leader: it'll be like MEAN GIRLS if we're not careful!) but needs the INTEL and will treat them as "passengers"
Once we're underway, characters can find individual ways to make inter-party bonds until we forge a true bond under fire.
That way, Konrad doesn't look a pussy for giving in, Griet won't look insane for making the same mistakes of trusting NATO troops following their own agenda as her father did and the new players can stay true to their character concepts as well.
How does that sound?

I think are essentially variations of the same suggestion, namely that the USN party have something that the Queen party feel is of value, and is probably workable. We'd need to hash out the precise  details, but personally, I would find this preferable to the French Foreign Legion option.

We had actually laid a framework for exactly this approach in several of our prior posts. It is not my place to say what may be on offer, but Rae is aware and it was in place long before this message was posted. For example, if you check Msg 83 posted on Tuesday you'll see Scully make reference to a "friend upriver". I realise you can't use that as it's meta knowledge, but to be honest, so far there hss been no significant exchange of dialogue between both parties to establish what else we may be able to bring to the table. Konrad asked in Msg 99 but Lizzie never got a chance to reply before the turn post went up. Lizzie then referenced being able to offer direct financial assistance in Msg 106 but no one has responded to that yet (to be fair, it was only posted  yesterday). So as far as I can tell, we're still negotiating.

And frankly, you don't expect us to give your our best deal at first time of asking do you? :-)

Finally, Mark, your point is well made about Yazzie, Milk, etc. From an IC perspective I totally get that. Rae's point about the players behind certain characters is also well made from an OOC point of view. I don't pretend to have read every single back post in this game, but I've read a lot, both here and in Fusilier's game. None of us are here trying to create an Orso or a Thor or a Tom Jones or a whatever the hell the Finnish sniper's name was.

We're not going to over the wall with your supplies. Scully isn't going to say to Anders "Finns? Yeah, killed them." If we're in a truck and it comes under fire and Konrad shouts "everybody out and return fire" we're not going to go "Hey, Liz, Konrad says we should get out and shoot back. Is that OK with you?" Nor are we going to sit in ooc bitching that the correct SOP would be to drive through.

We're going to get out of that bloody truck and help you kill the bad guys.

Does that sound fair?
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 7 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 13:57
Re: A Very Important Message

I like the ideas that have been put forward.  I also like that the lines between our OOC discussion and character IC discussion are being drawn with the intent that everybody has a good time but we still maintain some semblance of reality.  There are two sides to this "negotiation" and it's been easy for me to forget from time to time that I have to balance that equation.  From the OOC perspective, we all know that the goal is to create a cohesive force that can go forward and be awesome.  And I think we are well on our way to being able to do that.

Lizzie's referenced post went round and round about six times before it came out.  That was the tame version.  It isn't meant to be a challenge so much as a statement of equals in a negotiation process and an admission of what she can and can't do. Instead of making promises she may not be able to keep, she is being candid of the limits she is under.

From the IC perspective, I think the passenger deal works well because that is essentially what Lizzie and her crew are asking for.  It is also reasonable to suggest that if/when combat occurs, that the USN force take part in an organized manner and not be dicks about it.  That isn't anyone't intent.  A reasonable compromise could be that should combat occur, Lizzie would be on par with Konrad's "Non-Coms" and be responsible for directing the actions of her party, under Konrad's overall direction of the battle.  Subject to the "NATO exclusion" of course.  "Mean Girls" with Griet is fine and offers some nice RP opportunities.

Lizzie would want a few concessions:

Unloaded long arms, fine.  Side arms remain loaded.  We don't want to be victims either.

We will be happy to sleep on the deck and eat our own food, but would like a designated combat station(s) with cover available for the inevitable gunfire exchange that will happen.


Dave is on to something with the veto deus ex machina as well.  It gives everybody an out and doesn't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 846 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 14:21
Re: A Very Important Message
Griet isn't involved in negotiations yet but her ideas would be this:

1) The new guys act as passengers for now, how far they get depends on how good the INTEL is. e group will be responsible for their own food and shelter on deck (this will change quickly if weather is an issue and the Americans obviously need more shelter than they can provide and it's one of the things I'm planning to be the first step to integration). All American weapons will be loaded, travelling on the river is dangerous and Griet wants all the guns she can get ready to shoot. The Americans will stay in a designated area unless escorted by a Commando (again, something that will change after the first fire-fight).

2) As for command and veto, that's not an option. What Griet will say is that Lizzie will have veto in the planning and decision to undertake any offensive actions up to and including not taking part in offensive action. One actions have been agreed upon and planned, Konrad will have operational control and orders will be expected to be followed. Combat is not a democracy.
In defensive actions: if we're attacked, the same applies, the Americans will be expected to defend the Queen without hesitation (this one is a no brainer, the Americans will be being shot at as well).

3) That said, any plans we make will be mutually planned OC if not IC and orders need to be interpreted to be followed and that will be Lizzie's job. No-one is going to call someone out on interpreting orders creatively and Konrad isn't going to be issuing any suicidal orders.

I fully understand Mark Scully's point of view but the problem is that the two POVs are rather diametrically opposed at the moment. Griet has seen several groups of Americans who are more than happy to treat the crew of the Queen as sacrificial pawns and spill every drop of their blood to accomplish a mission for NATO. Given the position we're in now, the narrative urges both groups just to part.
That means we have to find narrative common ground and I'm hoping that what I'm suggesting makes sense form a negotiation point of view.
We play up the tension between common needs and mutual distrust and avoid dick masuring contests (which would be natural in the IC situation) by giving the newcomers the option to decline offensive actions that would be counter to their aims but accept that once action is committed to that orders are followed, not to the letter but to the spirit with a wide degree of independence and interpretation given to all sub-commanders.
If we are attacked, everyone sticks together too.
I'm sure that given the players involved that we can reach an agreement.
Please note, that whilst Griet isn't much for negotiation, I am so if anyone wants to refine the ideas let's get it done here so we can present verisimilitude IC.
Mark Scully
 player, 10 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 14:53
Re: A Very Important Message
quote:
1) The new guys act as passengers for now, how far they get depends on how good the INTEL is. e group will be responsible for their own food and shelter on deck (this will change quickly if weather is an issue and the Americans obviously need more shelter than they can provide and it's one of the things I'm planning to be the first step to integration). All American weapons will be loaded, travelling on the river is dangerous and Griet wants all the guns she can get ready to shoot. The Americans will stay in a designated area unless escorted by a Commando (again, something that will change after the first fire-fight).

Don't see a problem here. I would suggest that the USN party will post a guard on their "camp" 24/7. We don't know you. It needn't be someone standing in full battle gear, but someone will keep watch.

quote:
2) As for command and veto, that's not an option. What Griet will say is that Lizzie will have veto in the planning and decision to undertake any offensive actions up to and including not taking part in offensive action. One actions have been agreed upon and planned, Konrad will have operational control and orders will be expected to be followed. Combat is not a democracy.
In defensive actions: if we're attacked, the same applies, the Americans will be expected to defend the Queen without hesitation (this one is a no brainer, the Americans will be being shot at as well).


I think I partly covered that in my comment about being in a truck coming under fire. Just to be clear in case anyone thought that was just a random choice on my part, it wasn't. I was specifically referring to the incident you had previously which (iirc) led to the character of Thor being banished. That sort of disruptive action is not what we're about.
I agree that Lizzie having veto as to whether the USN team actually take part in an operation is feasible and realistic and again I would suggest this is not dissimilar to what Andy put forward.

quote:
3) That said, any plans we make will be mutually planned OC if not IC

Agreed

quote:
I fully understand Mark Scully's point of view but the problem is that the two POVs are rather diametrically opposed at the moment. Griet has seen several groups of Americans who are more than happy to treat the crew of the Queen as sacrificial pawns and spill every drop of their blood to accomplish a mission for NATO. Given the position we're in now, the narrative urges both groups just to part.

Agreed, and as I said, if Mark Scully was making the call IC we would have already parted (actually, once it was clear that Titan was unrecoverable he wouldn't even have engaged with you - sorry Eric!) but I would reiterate again that Mark Scully isn't making the decision. Lizzie Kane is and if she says we're getting on the boat he gets on the boat. What I am trying to do with Scully is give him depth, as I would with any character I've created.

I have no issue with Mark Scully and Griet coming into contact / conflict and would hope that in time both would be able to find some form of common ground.  Maybe Mark Scully will realise that things aren't as black and white as he sees them when it comes to the mercs and there are shades of grey, maybe Griet will realise that the Marine that screwed them over was the exception rather than the rule. Whatever happens though, it all translates to Dave and Mark having hour upon hour of enjoyable role play time (we may want to discuss boundaries first. In my experience when there is IC tension between characters it's good to have clear OOC communication between players but we can probably make that a take away point rather than discuss on board)

This message was last edited by the player at 14:54, Sun 14 June 2015.

Thijs van Lincklaen
 player, 169 posts
 Sergeant-Majoor, DMC
 DaleN
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 15:47
Re: A Very Important Message
Mariusz Tokarski:
4) Jason Kasparov: Turned on us and tried to blow us up, Mariusz' mentor died saving the crew.

As Jason's (admittedly replacement) player, I take exception to that remark.  I never turned on the party or tried to blow it up.  Perhaps this happened before I took over the character, but nothing in the play since that time suggested that he had done so in the past.  After I had to drop out due to a new job, Jason quietly died of his wounds offscreen, with no opportunity to turn on the group.  Or maybe Mark is thinking about someone else?
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1211 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 16:40
Re: A Very Important Message
Must have been someone else then. Someone definitely pulled a grenade on us and someone had to drop on it.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1646 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 19:37
Re: A Very Important Message
Sorry, been very busy with work the past few days.  I'll make it quick (as usual)...

I think that the new guys and their training and situation is pretty fair.  If they believe that they're still operating on a mission currently then, they have that frame of mind that they have their orders and new ones must come from someone higher than Konrad.  I think their assessment of us as being mercenaries or deserters is valid (in their opinion at least) since they believe that there is still some kind of command structure left in NATO (in our opinion).

It would seem that both sides here have plenty of history backing their beliefs.  Now, it's just a matter of how we integrate both units into one.  That's why we roleplay right?
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1647 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 19:42
Re: A Very Important Message
Try ti make an IC post tonight
Craig Sutherland
 player, 712 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 19:53
Re: A Very Important Message
In reply to Mariusz Tokarski (msg # 78):

There was Jesters character as we were infiltrating into Warsaw who out of spite buggered the M240 before he was shot.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3010 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 22:41
Re: A Very Important Message

DaleN is completely innocent. The fragger was Jay 'Chopper' Hicks (played by Glenn D.). He- Glenn- got fed up with how Leg, Law, and Tony were playing and decided to quit. Fr. Switek was played by Snakeyes. Dude could RP but he was notoriously unreliable. By that time, Snake had been MIA for weeks. I decided to kill two abandoned PCs with one grenade. I thought that Chopper's mysterious betrayal would be a lot more interesting than having him take an enemy bullet.

The really disruptive players are all long gone. That's why I so firmly believe that we can make this work, both IC and OOC. I was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too patient with the aforementioned troublemakers. I won't make that mistake again.

-
helbent4
 Lurker, 15 posts
 Lurking
 In Lurksville
Mon 15 Jun 2015
at 10:19
Re: A Very Important Message
Hello all!

I think I have a solution to this dilemma that will satisfy everyone.

Through some kind of messenger (perhaps the new PCs?) Bayer is given a packet addressed to him. Inside are legal orders from the Bundeswehr 3rd Army instructing him to make all due haste to the 6 Panzergrenadier Division, Panzergrenadierbrigaden 17 cantonment in northern Poland. There he is to assume command of Panzergrenadierbataillon 172. Further, he is hereby promoted to Oberstleutnant (NATO rank OR-4) effective immediately.

BOOM! Done.

This gives Bayer something to do and a place to go, if he hasn't figured this out already. If the new PCs are loyal to the NATO chain of command, it's a cut-and-dried situation. Somewhat more complicated is if Griet needs some kind of official juice, she can be made a commissioned officer in the Free Polish Navy. From what I recall in Rae's game the Free Poles have negotiated a mutual-support agreement with the US forces operating in their territory in order to provide a nucleus of a post-communist nation state. I think the Free Poles might even be part of NATO now? I can't imagine any kind of SOFA along those lines would not allow for rank reciprocity like any similar real-world arrangement.

This solution is inspired by the description of "Primary Groups" in the "RDF Sourcebook". The pre-war status quo of NATO TO&Es and chains of command is history. Small units (that is, PC groups) function on an informal and ad hoc basis. If rank is an issue, PCs can easily be given promotions. And I think it's past fuckin' time Bayer and Griet got promoted! The other PCs in the Primary group can therefore be considered civilian contractors or otherwise attached to Bayer or Griet, or treated as boat crew. Promotions can also be made on a "brevet" or temporary basis. I am sure this won't be the case here but in theory, if someone isn't playing ball they can be demoted on some pretext or another to maintain command cohesion.

In other words the chain of command and rank structure (which is, after all, typically randomly rolled) is not fixed in stone, either in game or in real life.

Tony

PS: I have many, many flaws as a GM (and as a person) but at least in my own Twilight 2000 game this situation is not an issue because one of my ground rules for playing is that new PCs can't be officers or outrank established PCs, and there it is. I also make sure to semi-regularly promote PCs ether on a brevet or permanent basis.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3013 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 15 Jun 2015
at 16:33
Kudos

It looks like y'all have worked things out. Thank you, most sincerely.

The GM turn post is up. It's in two parts, and your upcoming IC posts for this turn can follow suit, if you so desire. Part one is about a three-hour block of smooth steaming- you may want to post what your PC was up to during that time (there's always stuff to be done on board the tug, as well as personal business). Part two is your first view of Grudziaz. You'll need to give me some idea of how you're going to approach it (you might want to take another look at the intel Norbert provided before you left Swiecie). If you want to split a single post, just put "hr" (minus the quotes) between <>. Or, if you'd prefer to write separate posts, that's fine too. As always, hit me up if you have any questions.

EDIT: Sir Petr says "bye".

Swiecie drifts by slowly to port; near its east end, the single red brick tower of Swiecie Castle stands like a solitary watchman. Atop its battlements, a lone, forlorn figure stands between two rectangular crenelations, looking out over the brown ribbon of the Vistula. He raises his hand in salute as the tug steams slowly past.

Onward and upward!

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 23:43, Mon 15 June 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1718 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 16 Jun 2015
at 21:11
Re: Kudos
Sorry I haven't posted.  I've have a bit of a bug but am trying to catch up and hope to post IC in the next 24hrs.  Sorry for the delay.

Andy.
Anders Mattson
 player, 132 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Tue 16 Jun 2015
at 21:25
Re: Kudos
I'll scratch up a post in the next 24 hours or so. And will be on night shifts for the next month or so, so I'll be available much more.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 9 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Wed 17 Jun 2015
at 02:34
Re: Kudos
sorry for the delay, having some health issues this week.

I'll get a post up tomorrow morning
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3014 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 17 Jun 2015
at 17:59
Re: Kudos

Let's hold off on a turn post until tomorrow. We're still waiting on a couple of players to post IC, and I'd like an idea of how you're going to approach the city.

To clarify, Norbert's intel suggests that Grudziaz is under Red Army control but open to travelers and merchant traffic, and that as long as you're not in uniform or advertising that there are current/former NATO troops aboard the tug, you should be able to move pretty freely about the city. In other words, it's time for a little urban adventure.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 18:01, Wed 17 June 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1721 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 13:19
Re: Kudos
Rae, when you have time please can you add Thijs' Intel to the map?

Thanks,

Andy
Anders Mattson
 player, 135 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 17:56
Re: Kudos
Happy Midsummer, gentlemen!

As the resident Finn, I must educate you on the subject. The Midsummer Eve has been celebrated for centuries and the original idea was to sacrifice ale and liquor to the old gods, so they'd provide a good harvest the coming autumn. The more drunk you got, the better the blessing. Midsummer Eve also includes sauna, drunken debauchery (and as no surprise, a reasonable baby boom nine months later) and occasionally drowning with one's fly open in one of the numerous lakes, rivers or the murky waters of the Baltic preceded by a drunken attempt to pee in to the water from a rowboat while standing.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3017 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 20:12
Re: Kudos

Interesting. Thanks, Mediiic.

@All: I'd like to write and post the next turn tomorrow afternoon. I need to know how y'all intend to approach the city. Here are a few options:

1. Steam right to the city pier in the tug.

2. Send a recon team in the Princess to the city pier.

3. Land a recon team outside the city and walk there.

Of course, you don't have to order from this menu. These are just some suggestions to get the ball rolling.

Thanks.

Rae

-
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 852 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 20:43
Re: Kudos
OK, I suggest that we head in under what's left of our own steam.

Any attempt at scouting is pretty much going to blow our cover as merchants.

Everyone get into civvie or some of the Soviet gear we have taken over the months, there should be enough of a mix to make us blend in without looking like a bunch of PACT deserters.

I'd like two groups: one to focus on the parts we need and any ammo we can scrounge up and one to buy food and if we can trade gold for some sort of cargo, if we're merchants we need to be buying stuff as part of our cover and if we are travelling north it'll be better if we can convert some of the gold we have into goods that are easier to trade anyway.

I'd have liked to have planned some more and consulted people in more detail but we're pretty much out of time.

If anyone has any changes they'd like to suggest I'm saying we go with something like this:

American group:
Lizzie and her crew can go ashore and do anything they need

Parts Group:
Bayer takes half of our active original PCs to see if they can trade for parts and essentials

Food Group:
Jan leads and Mariusz accompanies along with any other active original PCs to by food and see if they can scare up a cargo.

If any of Lizzie's group would rather accompany another team that's fine, Griet wouldn't suggest it yet though as it would look like she was trying to break up the group and leave them isolated.

I'll assign trade goods to each team once I've checked the stores in another post.

As an aside, Griet will be asking Josef to make the best steam we can risk getting into port. If they see we're limping in any parts we try to buy will be at a premium. If it looks like we can take of leave them we might not be as horrible fleeced as we otherwise would. If Josef says we can't, we'll just have to grin and bear it.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 854 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 20:48
Re: Kudos
Looks like the American team and food team are merging which is totally cool.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 855 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 20:56
Re: Kudos
I'm suggesting the following distribution of trade goods and gold.

Food Group:
6 AK-74 and 12 empty mags (we keep the ammo)
50 gold bullets (if values are more than this, it'll be a down payment)
Priorities
Food: we need 16 man days of rations every day.
A week's supplies would be good so 120 days would be ideal (bulk is OK for a third but at least 80 days worth will need to be domestic rather than "wild" ideally)
More food as cargo (bulk would be fine)
Up to 1 tonne of wood (more if cheap)
Any cargo up to 4 tonnes that is likely to sell for a profit

Parts Group:
RPD (no ammo)
Sig 550 2 mags (no ammo)
Wz 91/98/26 (8 rds)
6 AK-74 and 13 empty mags (ditto with ammo)
50 gold bullets (likewise with down payments)
Priority Buys:
Parts we need (still not specified)
Any other parts on spec
5.56mmN (we can say we need to trade it further north)
7.62mmR belted
7.62mmS
12 gauge
23mm, any
30mm grenades
Minor wishes:
40mm grenades (Western ideally but PACT too)
Medical gear:
First aid kit equivalents could be good. If there is an abundance we could stock up as part of our trade goods

Any other bargains will be OK if we have enough gold.

Try to trade gold first over goods but don't lose a purchase just to try and keep the guns.

Again, anyone want to refine this, please do, but I'm trying to give Rae something to go on without constantly rewriting IC posts to suit.

As it is, given the time differences, once I go to bed in about 30 minutes I probably won't be on again until after Rae has posted.

I'm assuming that we've been picking up clothes and webbing etc but that most has been used as disguises. If we have anything of value that I've missed, chime in.

Unfinished...

This message was last edited by the player at 21:07, Fri 19 June 2015.

Mark Scully
 player, 16 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Fri 19 Jun 2015
at 21:26
Re: Kudos
Just to be clear, Scully is volunteering to stay aboard.
Eric Phillips
 player, 17 posts
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 00:04
Re: Kudos
Anders Mattson:
Happy Midsummer, gentlemen!

As the resident Finn, I must educate you on the subject. The Midsummer Eve has been celebrated for centuries and the original idea was to sacrifice ale and liquor to the old gods, so they'd provide a good harvest the coming autumn. The more drunk you got, the better the blessing. Midsummer Eve also includes sauna, drunken debauchery (and as no surprise, a reasonable baby boom nine months later) and occasionally drowning with one's fly open in one of the numerous lakes, rivers or the murky waters of the Baltic preceded by a drunken attempt to pee in to the water from a rowboat while standing.


Today's high was what, 59 degrees there?  Summer... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk  lol
Craig Sutherland
 player, 715 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 00:14
Re: Kudos
In reply to Griet Niewiadomska (msg # 94):

Some 7.62mmN would probably be useful as well, if we can get it for a good price. I think there are still a few on board using it.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1653 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 01:44
Re: Kudos
Let me know where you need Tucker to go.  I have to go to a third job this evening...
Anders Mattson
 player, 136 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 04:36
Re: Kudos
In reply to Eric Phillips (msg # 96):

The joke is, in bible it rained for fourty days and nights and they called it a catastrophy. We call it a summer in Finland. ;)
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 856 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 07:00
Re: Kudos
In Wales we call that a crippling drought.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 14 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 09:43
Re: Kudos
Anders Mattson:
Happy Midsummer, gentlemen!

As the resident Finn, I must educate you on the subject. The Midsummer Eve has been celebrated for centuries and the original idea was to sacrifice ale and liquor to the old gods, so they'd provide a good harvest the coming autumn. The more drunk you got, the better the blessing. Midsummer Eve also includes sauna, drunken debauchery (and as no surprise, a reasonable baby boom nine months later) and occasionally drowning with one's fly open in one of the numerous lakes, rivers or the murky waters of the Baltic preceded by a drunken attempt to pee in to the water from a rowboat while standing.


Not just a Finnish thing of course; the other Nordic nations do it as well. The British just seem to get drunk all the time.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1725 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 12:20
Re: Kudos
In reply to Jelena Tamm (msg # 101):

Harsh but true. :)



Rae, is it cold enough that we need thermal fatigues?

Ta,

Andy
Jan Cerny
 player, 1726 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 21:38
Re: Kudos
Mark Scully:
Scully turns towards the guy in mostly Brit uniform that talked wierd. He remembered Konrad had indicated that this guy and Tucker were his sub team commanders, but couldn't remember the dude's name.

Even if the SEAL stayed aboard the tug there was a possibility it might be boarded for whatever reason while it was tied up alongside. And whilst the guy's logic could be applied in reverse to mean that just because Scully was wearing U.S. BDU's that didn't automatically make him American, if the guy was offering it wouldn't do any harm to look like he was from somewhere else, although he can't help but chuckle wryly at the comment about looking like a mercenary.

So after a second or so he nods. The guy looked to be around the same size as him, maybe an inch or so shorter, close enough that it shouldn't make any difference. "Ok, that would work." The tall American nods. "Thanks." Then, after a noticeable pause, he extends his right hand. "I'm Scully." No first name, no rank, just Scully.

Dave - just to say that when I can next post IC I'll include a response to this (even though the scene has moved on) where Jan introduces himself to Scully.

Thanks,

Andy.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3019 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 23:17
Welcome to Grudziaz!

Yes, it's cold enough for winter wear. I don't have any personal experience with thermal fatigues, though, so I can't tell you if they would be overdoing it or not.

@All:

Turn is up. It's a long one. If you want to engage with the harbormaster, that's fine. Just separate retro actions from current actions in your IC post (use the hr command code to split your post).

I need to know who wants to go ashore. If you're planning on missing turns this week, it would make more sense for your PC to remain on board the tug.

There might be some action soon, but there'll definitely be a lot more talking. If that latter doesn't float your boat, once again, it's probably better that your PC remains aboard the tug.

I put a little joke in the turn post. It's pretty esoteric but if you're a British hipster or hipster Anglophile, you might just get it. It's a long shot, but I'll give +1 XP to the first person who calls it.

As always, let me know if you have any questions.

Rae

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 23:32, Sat 20 June 2015.

Craig Sutherland
 player, 716 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sat 20 Jun 2015
at 23:51
Re: Welcome to Grudziaz!
Craig wants to go ashore.


Cymon.

This message was last edited by the player at 07:51, Sun 21 June 2015.

Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 859 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sun 21 Jun 2015
at 07:34
The Queen's armament.
I've been thinking about the Z00-2. It's a heavy old gun and we have one burst of ammunition for it. Would it make sense to see if we could trade it off for something lighter but maybe with more ammo.

I was thinking about asking around here to see if we could trade the Zoo-2 for something like a ZPU-2 or even 1 if the additional goods were worthwhile.

I have a feeling that if we could get something like a KPV rig with more ammo rather than the 23mm we could fire it more often and retire one of the DsHKs in order to conserve 12.7mmB ammo.

In my opinion, more ammo for the weapons we have is a better deal than having the heavier weapon with cripplingly limited ammo. Ideally we'd be able to trade for some 30mmHE, any 82mm mortar rounds thy can scrape up and still get a lighter weapon to replace the auto-cannons. In addition it might keep the Russian garrison sweet and make us look more like merchants.

I'm not totally wedded to the idea though, I'm just floating it for discussion.

What does everyone think?
Craig Sutherland
 player, 717 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sun 21 Jun 2015
at 20:36
Re: The Queen's armament.
In reply to Griet Niewiadomska (msg # 106):

I agree. It is also a death trap for anyone that tries to use it and takes return fire. Other than the low bath tub defense it is mounted in there is no protection for the gunner. Single KPV in some sort of naval mount would be a good alternative, of course comes down to what is available.

This message was last edited by the player at 00:27, Mon 22 June 2015.

Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 13 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sun 21 Jun 2015
at 22:47
Re: The Queen's armament.
Crazy busy Father's Day, I will get a post up in the morning.

(And Happy Father's Day to those so inclined!)

This message was last edited by the player at 22:48, Sun 21 June 2015.

Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1655 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Mon 22 Jun 2015
at 00:11
Re: The Queen's armament.
In reply to Griet Niewiadomska (msg # 106):

Agreed.  Not a bad idea, the DShK's are the ships back bone any how.

This message was last edited by the player at 00:14, Mon 22 June 2015.

Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1657 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Mon 22 Jun 2015
at 00:28
Re: The Queen's armament.
Also, I'm having surgery this week, Thursday (nothing major), so I will be off line for a couple of days and depending on the wi-fi at the hospital.  That being said, if you think that keep Robert on the side lines for this jaunt into town, that's cool with me.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1727 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 23 Jun 2015
at 07:21
Re: The Queen's armament.
Sorry, had some RL stuff to sort out and missed some posts.  Is Jan with the shore party please?
Jan Cerny
 player, 1729 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 23 Jun 2015
at 22:26
Re: The Queen's armament.
Apologies for the delays but I've now posted IC.



Dave (and others) - I don't know what clothing you want to borrow (Scully has mentioned Russian combat trousers which is unfortunately one thing that Jan doesn't have) but Jan has the following that people can borrow:

 - Black winter Polish tanker's jacket with fur lining
 - Czech Woodland vz.95 pattern fatigues
 - Swiss TAZ 90 Woodland pattern fatigues
 - US BDUs Woodland pattern (probably not wanted)

Jan will be wearing Polish Army combat trousers (Puma camo pattern) and a Red Army winter field jacket, fur-lined in Soviet leaf-pattern camouflage with a black hooded sweatshirt underneath.

Sorry for being a detail freak.....

Andy.
Mark Scully
 player, 22 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Tue 23 Jun 2015
at 22:35
Re: The Queen's armament.
In reply to Jan Cerny (msg # 112):

OK, I think you mentioned loaning him Soviet gear in your original IC post so I went off that.

The Czech trousers would seem to be the best bet if OK. Over that he's wearing a plain black fleece.

Rae, rather than me editing my posts, for any reference to Soviet woodland camo can you take that as Czech woodland camo? Thanks.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1730 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 23 Jun 2015
at 23:10
Re: The Queen's armament.
In reply to Mark Scully (msg # 113):

Apologies - I was meaning the Soviet jacket he has.  I should have been clearer.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1660 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Thu 25 Jun 2015
at 02:18
Re: The Queen's armament.
Just a quick heads up,  I am having surgery tomorrow (Thursday) and will likely be not able to post until the weekend (possibly), depends also on the Wifi at the hospital.

Regards,
John
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3021 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Thu 25 Jun 2015
at 02:21
Re: The Queen's armament.

Good luck, John. We'll be pulling for you.

Rae

-
Anders Mattson
 player, 139 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Thu 25 Jun 2015
at 05:51
Re: The Queen's armament.
Sweet dreams and good luck, though the latter is simply redundant as you are most likely in good hands with my colleagues. ;)
Jelena Tamm
 player, 17 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Thu 25 Jun 2015
at 16:00
Re: The Queen's armament.
Hope it goes well.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3023 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Thu 25 Jun 2015
at 17:27
Talk-talk

Full turn is up.

-
Anastasjia Kovac
 player, 11 posts
 U.S. State Department
 Tegyrius
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 20:09
Re: Talk-talk
Spartan...


Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3024 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 20:11
Re: Talk-talk

Spartan, that post was... brilliant. I didn't know whether to scratch my head or lol, so I did both. Thanks.

-
Jelena Tamm
 player, 20 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Fri 26 Jun 2015
at 21:52
Re: Talk-talk
Cap'n Rae:
Spartan, that post was... brilliant. I didn't know whether to scratch my head or lol, so I did both. Thanks.

-


Yep, a lovely piece of work.
Eric Phillips
 player, 22 posts
 18 Bravo, 10th SFG
 Spartan-117
Tue 30 Jun 2015
at 20:24
The Perry Cox School of Being an Island
Lemme go ahead and share a little something special with you that I like to call Perry’s Perspective. One: If someone’s standing in front of me in line at the coffee shop and they can’t decide what they want in the half an hour it took to get to the register, I should be allowed to kill them. Two: I’m fairly sure if they took porn off the internet, there’d only be one website left, and it’d be called Bring back the porn!” Three and most importantly of all: The only way to be respected as a doctor — nay, respected as a man — is to be an island; you are born alone, you damn sure die alone.”



tl;dr version: I need you guys to engage with me like a fish needs a bicycle.  I have 9 line items in my pack, so prepare yourself.

This message was last edited by the player at 20:28, Tue 30 June 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1734 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Wed 1 Jul 2015
at 13:24
I hate the dice roller....
Please can I officially state that I hate the dice roller!

Jan has a Strength of 8 and an Unarmed Martial Arts of 7 so he should be in his element in this brawl, even in a system with a high random element like T2k.  Currently though he's being crap and it's really frustrating!
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1663 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Wed 1 Jul 2015
at 13:31
Re: I hate the dice roller....
Jan Cerny:
Please can I officially state that I hate the dice roller!

Jan has a Strength of 8 and an Unarmed Martial Arts of 7 so he should be in his element in this brawl, even in a system with a high random element like T2k.  Currently though he's being crap and it's really frustrating!

THe die roller on this site is killing me in another game I'm in so you're not alone!!!
Jelena Tamm
 player, 22 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Wed 1 Jul 2015
at 13:44
Re: I hate the dice roller....
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker:
Jan Cerny:
Please can I officially state that I hate the dice roller!

Jan has a Strength of 8 and an Unarmed Martial Arts of 7 so he should be in his element in this brawl, even in a system with a high random element like T2k.  Currently though he's being crap and it's really frustrating!

THe die roller on this site is killing me in another game I'm in so you're not alone!!!


There's another site that I play on that has a diceroller. We call it (the roller) Khornelog.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3028 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 1 Jul 2015
at 16:56
Re: I hate the dice roller....

Yep, that dice roller can be a real bastard, no doubt.

I think it would be best to abort the trade mission, return the shore party to the tug, and then combine the meeting with the general with a shopping trip to the market. That way, everyone who wants to be involved in the story can be.

The next turn will combine the two.

-
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3029 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 1 Jul 2015
at 17:39
Re: I hate the dice roller....

I edited the previous turn to more clearly answer Scully's question.

"Pretty much all of the cafes that are still in business are right off the main square in the old town. You can probably watch the place right from the market. There are tall buildings all around the square, but I don't know right off hand which ones, if any, are empty."

Sorry I didn't make it clear the first time.

-
Mark Scully
 player, 28 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Wed 1 Jul 2015
at 17:56
Re: I hate the dice roller....
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 128):

Thanks, I've made an edit to my ic post to reflect the updated info.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3031 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 3 Jul 2015
at 18:40
Layin' It All Out on the Table

Hey gang,

The turn is up and it's a long one. I wasn't going to have General Zolnerowich give you as much intel as he did in this turn, but I want you to know what potentially lies in store for you downriver, regardless of whether or not you accept his job offer. Chalk his garrulousness down to a couple of aperitifs.

I've divided the turn into three sections. You can respond to any or all of them in your IC turn post, just use dividers (the hr code) to indicate which timeframe your stated actions take place in.

I'm thinking that there are going to be four different groups for the next few turns- the negotiations group, the shopping group, the overwatch group (Scully and Phillips), and the tug security group. Please choose your group based on your interest level, IRL availability, and PC skills and aptitudes. If you don't feel like playing any of this out IC, leave your PC on the boat.


Any questions, ask away. I'll be around.

Cheers,

Rae

-

This message was lightly edited by the GM at 19:14, Fri 03 July 2015.

Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 20 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sat 4 Jul 2015
at 00:30
Re: Layin' It All Out on the Table
I will try to get a post up tomorrow, but if I can't get access to wifi it won't be til Sunday evening. Lizzie will be in the negotiation group.  If I can't post before the plot advances, feel free to puppet as necessary.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 28 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 12:55
Re: Layin' It All Out on the Table
I see we're dealing with atomic demolitions charges; personally, I prefer mine chicken-powered.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3038 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 16:12
Deal or No Deal?

OK, so I'm not sure if we're ready to advance things. The Kommando's meeting with the General haven't discussed the offer amongst themselves. I don't want to assume too much.

So, if y'all could step outside to discuss and make a decision on Zolnerowich's offer this turn, that would be great. I'll still be around if you have any more questions, suggestions, or counteroffers for the General (or Greg).

Once an arrangement has been made, I can move things along again. I'd like to post a turn on Wednesday, at the latest.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 02:56, Tue 07 July 2015.

Mark Scully
 player, 33 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 16:28
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 133):

Scully and Phillips are done with Greg.
Anders Mattson
 player, 143 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 20:53
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Sorry about the silence. Been working nights at the hospital, days at the backyard and received word of a friend, colleague and a former bandmate having drowned while fishing. Hit a bit more closer to home than I would have liked. Will resume posting shortly.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1674 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 21:37
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Anders Mattson (msg # 135):

Very sorry to hear about your friend.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3039 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 6 Jul 2015
at 21:46
Re: Deal or No Deal?

Yes, I'm sorry too Mediiic. Take some more time, if you need it.

-
Jelena Tamm
 player, 29 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 13:42
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Indeed. Very sorry to hear about that.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1738 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 7 Jul 2015
at 22:17
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Anders Mattson (msg # 135):

Sorry for your loss.  Hope you and your family are ok.



Sorry I haven't posted myself.  I've had a lot of work on suddenly but I'm planning to post IC tomorrow morning UK time on my way into work.

Apologies for the delay.

Andy
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3040 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 17:24
Re: Deal or No Deal?

Can I assume that you are going to accept the job? Is there anything else you want to ask for in payment for taking the general and a few of his men to Malbork? A couple of you have mentioned ammo and weapons. Griet mentioned (OOC, IIRC) trying to get a ZPU-4 with ammo in trade for the ZU-23-2 and its 22 rounds of 23mm API. Is there anything else that you'd like to ask for specifically?

I'd really like to wrap this up and get y'all back on the river. I don't know if y'all are busy or bored or both. It'd be great if the leadership cadre, Konrad, Griet, and Lizzie, could get in a decisive IC post today. As it is, I don't feel comfortable moving things past the negotiation phase- if I do, you're only getting what little you've already been offered/asked for IC.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 17:31, Wed 08 July 2015.

Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1676 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 17:44
Re: Deal or No Deal?
How about food and rounds for the DShK?  What about gun shields and armor?
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3041 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 17:47
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker:
How about food and rounds for the DShK?  What about gun shields and armor?


Food's already part of the deal. Dishka rounds have not been asked for IC (unless I missed it, which is entirely possible). Every HMG already has a gun shield. Armor for what? The bridge already has armored shutters for all of its windows (too much will make the tug dangerously top-heavy, though), and the Vasilek has its armored barbette.

-
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 874 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 18:08
Re: Deal or No Deal?
f the General just wans a lift we'll settle for food and fixing the engine. If that's the case we'll need a quick meeting with the ORMO guy to try and switch the Z00-2 for the following:
ZPU-2 with 500 rounds per gun
1,000 rounds of 12.7mmB
The other guns will be traded for 100 rounds of ammo we need.
That's the starting bid anyway.

If he wants to go for the attack option we will suggest:
As many rounds of 23mm as he can spare we will fire what we need to in the battle and return any unused ammo apart from 100 rounds we keep as payment.
The same for the 82mm but we only keep 10 rounds of our choice as payment.
(If they have 81mm 0r 60mm ammo we can knock up sabots if they don't already have them)
Ditto Dushka Ammo but we keep 500 rounds as payment.

We still trade the small arms for ammo with the ORMO.

How does this sound?
Mark Scully
 player, 34 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 18:38
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Griet Niewiadomska (msg # 143):

I haven't had an opportunity to be involved in any of this IC, but I'm not sure I actually follow what you're suggesting?

Rearm the tug and embark a detachment of Soviet troops (the best General Zolnerowich has available)?

Get a message (somehow) to General Chilikov that Zolnerowich is en route (I presume you mean to tell Chilikov that Zolnerowich is travelling aboard the tug)?

Have Zolnerowich's troops look for anyone sneaking out of Grudziaz with the nuclear demolition charge. If they do intercept them and then the tug turns around?

If they don't you get another message to Chilikov telling him that you've taken Zolnerowich prisoner and you want to arrange a meeting with Chilikov to hand Zolnerowich over?

Hope that Chilikov turns up and kill him? Or if he doesn't turn up hope he sends his spetsnaz and kill them?

Have I got that right?

If so I may be missing something, but isn't that likely to attract a lot of attention to the tug? And if he has got a suitcase nuke and is prepared to use it Chilikov doesn't need to do anything except plant it somewhere up river and detonate it as the tug passes.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 875 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 18:42
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Yes to all of that.

I am aware it's a wild pan and I'm happy for others to suggest other things. It is at least a start for planning to work from even if all the ideas are totally rejected. I'm not going to bitch if holes are picked in it but we need to start the discussion somewhere even if it's "Hell no we ain't doing that."

This message was last edited by the player at 18:46, Wed 08 July 2015.

Mark Scully
 player, 35 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 18:46
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Griet Niewiadomska (msg # 145):

Wouldn't it be simpler to sneak Zolnerowich aboard the tug and try to deliver him to Malbork without attracting that level of attention? Possibly in conjunction with a diversionary column going overland so Chilikov thinks Zolnerowich is en route by road instead.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 876 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 18:59
Re: Deal or No Deal?
It might well be, although the tug may have been lit up on the KGB's radar now. Well worth discussing though and far simpler.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 24 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 19:31
Re: Deal or No Deal?
I will have a full post up this evening, but we have to draw the nuke out.  It's the only way to level the playing field so our adversary doesn't hold the trump card.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1740 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 21:45
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Griet Niewiadomska (msg # 143):

I think that we should also take the opportunity to try to obtain any of the following that the General or other merchants in the city can supply.  In addition to what has already been discussed I think that we should try to obtain:

 - shells for the mortar

 - 30mm ammo for the AGS-17

 - belted ammo for the PKMs

 - 40mmN grenades for those with NATO GLs

 - shotgun shells

 - small arms ammo in general

 - winter clothing for everyone

 - batteries

 - electronics such as radios and NVGs

 - medical supplies

Now some of this can be bargained for in return for transporting the General but we also have a number of spare weapons and a load of gold to trade.  We haven't found anywhere before where we could even attempt to trade the gold so I think that we should grab the opportunity here.

Does that make sense?

If you want me to do so I can put together a list of gear we have that we're looking to trade.

Ta,

Andy.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 26 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Wed 8 Jul 2015
at 22:01
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Is this where I say, under no circumstances do I think Corkman is a bad person?
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1679 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 01:15
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane:
Is this where I say, under no circumstances do I think Corkman is a bad person?

It's a game, nothing person if I read you right?
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 27 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 02:03
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Correct sir, nothing personal.  I just try to be careful when my character gets opinionated.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3043 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 18:14
Moving On

Turn is up and its another long one. I had a lot to cover since the last turn post; if I missed something, please don't take it personally. Kindly let me know and I will edit as needed. As before, if you have stuff you wanted to do before the tug leaves Grudziadz, you can still post it.

Ken Takanori is an NPC medic intended to replace some of the medical skills lost with Anneka's death and Larue's departure.

For post-departure posts, I need you to include your PCs station/location on board the tug.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 20:07, Thu 09 July 2015.

Minh Quyen
 player, 721 posts
 SP4, U.S. Army MP
 JinnySong2
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 19:58
Re: Moving On
Nowe? I'm getting deja vu.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1682 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 20:20
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane:
Correct sir, nothing personal.  I just try to be careful when my character gets opinionated.

No offense taken.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 878 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Thu 9 Jul 2015
at 21:43
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Did the harbour master get a chance to set up a meet with the ORMO? We were hoping to try and trade the excess weapons for small arms ammo. Things were probably very busy  though.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 32 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 14:51
Re: Moving On
Cap'n Rae:
To replace some of the medical skills lost with Anneka's death and Larue's departure.

For post-departure posts, I need you to include your PCs station/location on board the tug.

-


Is my one OK? Jelena won't be too visible until we've parted company with these Russians... unless we get attacked.
Anders Mattson
 player, 146 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 15:52
Re: Moving On
On my post, I shall now comment here as well. Being a native Finnish-speaker and knowing enough Estonian to order beer and tell someone to piss off as well as a few select other things even without studying the language, in my opinion the two languages are very close to one another. I suggest, basic things spoken in Finnish or Estonian should be possible to understand with either an easy check or no check. More complex concepts might probably require a check of increased difficulty. Just for realism, that is...
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3044 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 16:48
Re: Deal or No Deal?
Griet Niewiadomska:
Did the harbour master get a chance to set up a meet with the ORMO? We were hoping to try and trade the excess weapons for small arms ammo. Things were probably very busy  though.


Thanks for the reminder. Let me make some dice rolls and let you know what deal/s the ORMO are willing to make.

-
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 880 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 18:33
Re: Deal or No Deal?
The AGS-19 has been a great weapon but if we can't get any ammo for it would it be an idea to trade it for any 40mm they might have as well as more small arms ammo? What we have left won't buy much, I'll try to offer gold too but I can't see the ORMO trading guns for geld.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 881 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 18:48
Re: Deal or No Deal?
How about this for a priority list?

Buy
30mm ammo for the AGS-17 1

 - belted ammo for the PKMs  3

 - 40mmN grenades for those with NATO GLs 2

 - shotgun shells 9

 

 - winter clothing for everyone 9

 - batteries 6

 - electronics such as radios and NVGs 4

 - medical supplies 5

7.62mm Belt or loose 7
5.56mmN 8

Sell:
12 AK-74s and the empty mags 1
RPD  4
Converted Moisin Nagant 3
2/3 G3s 5
G11 2
Up to 10 40mm BG-1 grenades (only for NATO Grenades) 6
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3045 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 21:08
Re: Deal or No Deal?

Since you want 30mm ammo for your AGS-17, I'll allow Griet to retroactively ask the General for it. I rolled a d100 and it came up 100, so your Plamya ammo worries are officially over.

I did the same for your two PKMs and came up with a total of 101 rounds.

And for winter clothing. The Soviet quartermaster can provide winter clothing for everyone who needs it. It's a benefit of being near a Red Army cantonment supply dump. Who needs Red Army winter coats and pants? Your choice of brown or camo.

Batteries, radios, and NVGs are all no-goes. Neither the Soviets or the ORMO are willing to part with any electronics.

Same goes for med supplies. However, Ken pocketed some when he dipped from the hospital so you're still coming out ahead there.

The ORMO will trade you 19 40mmN HE grenades, 170 rounds of 7.62mmN, and 50 rounds 5.56mmN for all of the weapons and ammo that you've offered, except the G3s and the G11, which they don't want. It's a take it or leave it deal. Let me know.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 21:18, Fri 10 July 2015.

Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1226 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 21:13
Re: Deal or No Deal?
I'd say go with this.

If anyone is worried about the 40mmS, Mariusz has 10 HE and Griet has 15 in their supplies. Mariusz also has a HK-79 that could be used and there's an M203 in stores so the 40mm Western would be really useful in my opinion.

Griet will take some in brown and Mariusz in camo please.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1687 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 21:22
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Mariusz Tokarski (msg # 163):

I say keep the G-11 if they don't want it, maybe someone  else will want it down the line or we use it when we need it.

Tucker will take a set of browns and camo winter clothing sets to go along with his great coat.  Tucker still has some 40 mm grenades left still and some 5.56 ammo for his M-16A2/M-203 combo.  He would ask for only a handful of 7.62N rounds for his M-14K.

Otherwise I say make the deal.
Craig Sutherland
 player, 727 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 21:27
Re: Deal or No Deal?
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 162):

Did Craig have any luck with the mounts for the KPV's ? He will ask the general if nothing comes up in the village or from the other Russians.

Cymon.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 28 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Fri 10 Jul 2015
at 21:29
Re: Deal or No Deal?
I'll throw a set of Russian winter fatigues in the pack.  In camo.  It's what all the fashionable DIA agents are wearing these days.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 33 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 13:41
Re: Moving On
In reply to Anders Mattson (msg # 158):

Go for it!
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3046 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 16:04
The Airing of Grievances

Hello, everyone.

Integration of the new group has not gone very smoothly and there's quite a bit of frustration all around. This frustration has built up to the point where some players, and myself, are not enjoying this game. That's a big problem.

I spend about as much of my GM'ing time here reading and responding to PMs than I do reading and writing IC and turn posts (and I hope you know how much time I put into writing up the turn posts). Most of those PMs have been about the dysfunctional relationship between the old players and PCs and the "new kids".

I have tried to run damage control behind the scenes but I fear that my clumsy efforts have only made matters worse. I can only answer for myself, so I think it's time that the dissatisfied parties air their grievances directly.





This needs to happen publicly for a couple of reasons. Firstly, earlier player attempts to work things out amongst themselves via PM have gone nowhere. I don't know why, but a lack of engagement seems to be a big reason. Second, since all of us are affected by this inter-player/inter-PC tension, all of us have a right to know what's causing it, and deserves a voice in trying to resolve it. Inter-player tension killed this game the first time I shut it down, but several of you probably didn't know that (or you don't know any of the particulars). I make the GAME OVER announcement, though, so I look like the jerk/flake/coward etc. I'm not willing to take the fall again should this game go down in flames (again). There needs to be accountability here, for everyone.

I hope that we can engage in this discussion like the thoughtful, mature, respectful adults that we are. This would be a lot easier if this were a FtF group. There's something about distance and the written word that makes PbP a much more challenging medium. Being able to close a computer window and ignore one another doesn't help either. The following graphic is meant to inject a little levity into this situation, but there's some wisdom in it as well. I think that it's also applicable to PbP.





Besides inter-party dynamics issues, there are a couple of other issues that we need to discuss. I'm going to post the most salient posting guidelines here, but please go back and read through all of them. You all agree to abide by these guidelines when you signed on. If you are unable or unwilling to follow them consistently, you're doing us all a disservice by continuing your lackluster participation.

Cap'n Rae:
Raellus' PbP Guidelines


Post Rate

Typically, I'd like us to shoot for three turn posts per [seven day] week, standard. I want a quick moving game that involves frequent opportunities for character development and interaction, problem solving and teamwork, and, of course, combat.

For any PbP game to really work well, it's important that all of the players show initiative on a regular basis. This doesn't just mean posting once per turn. This means being active in seeking situations out, participating in planning and decision making, and interacting with other PCs, rather than simply reacting to GM input.

Missed Posts

If you are unable to make a post now and again, that is fine; I will NPC your character for that turn, if needed. If you will be unable to post for any length of time, please let me know in advance and I’ll be happy to fill in for you in your absence. If you miss several posts with no forewarning, your character will be walked off-stage (or overboard).

Posting Style

2. I know it's hard to come up with thrilling narrative or snappy dialogue every turn, but please try and make longer posts of good descriptions of your PC's actions for a few reasons. Firstly, they get me really enthused to write the back-story for you. Secondly, they add so much to the game. Thirdly, fifteen separate posts of "yes", "no", and "maybe" tends to 'spam-out' people in different time zones; they get up and there's a hundred posts of drivel that they can hardly inject themselves into. It also is amazingly confusing to GM. And boring to read.

IC Posting Ettiquette

1. Players MUST always answer other players, even if it's to only post "I ignore John." (If this isn't instituted, some players aren't answered and are stuck waiting for a response, missing turns and slowing everything down, sometimes this turns into the dreaded 'talking to the air' where players address the air rather than be held up. It looks really odd when twenty guys do it.)



Just remember that there are complex human beings on the other side of your screen. I'm a big believer in the Golden Rule. Let's all try to follow it.

And discuss...

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 16:13, Sat 11 July 2015.

Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1689 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 16:23
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'll start I suppose.  Being one of the few people in this game since it started Day One that are still around, we have seen a lot of players and characters come & go.  Some of them very good, others, not so good.  I think a big problem is that the new players are Special Ops types, which for the group on the tug, was or has been a very sore subject to us all.  A lot of those types of characters tried to shaft us or almost get the group killed over stupid shit thinking they were following some kind of ultimate directive or Op order (i.e. Reset).

Problem isn't with the players that I've see, it's just that they happened to pick a career that's been a thorn in the tugs side for awhile.  IMO, the players are doing a great job playing their people by being a little stand-offish because they are on top of the food chain (thinking there's still a war to win and their going to make a difference) and look down on the rest of us as deserters by doing what we're doing or how we've done it.

The general mentioned there's an evacuation of American forces going on at Bremerhaven...
Anders Mattson
 player, 148 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 16:37
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I, for one, do apologize my lack of activity which is mostly due to the fact, I work nights only until mid-August and have been doing some heavy work on our back yard. I apologize, if I have accidentally ignored anyone - it is not intentional. I just happen to be the father of two under two-year-old kids, so my attention span can be compared to a squirrel on chrystal meth.

I, for one, have no problems with the new players or characters and that goes also for Anders. The Finn considers the Soviets his primary enemy and anyone fighting them a potential ally. Of course, the current operation can be justified as undermining the Soviet Central Command by depleting its troops without potentially killing too many of them.

I do understand the problem of having multiple command level characters in the same group. It could be a great opportunity for roleplay, but so far I have steered Anders clear from it for two reasons: 1) my current schedule, which would seriously impede playing such a centric character and 2) not wanting to rock the boat too much - and besides, Anders has no legitimate claim for command position, not being a Nato combatant.

Because I enjoy this game very much, I request that all the parties try to discuss their creative and other differences in a constructive manner and, if necessary, offer to mediate the matters.

/O
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 882 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 17:24
Re: The Airing of Grievances
If Griet making the decisions she has without adequate consultation has made this problem, then I apologise. I know that Rae likes to keep to the posting schedule and that as a central commander in the game I have to post early in order for others to comment or act upon those decisions. In Fuse's game that has worked because of many PMs between the various group commanders. Here, this seems to be more of an issue and the RP nature McCarthy and Griet are very different.
However, Grit is committed to getting the Americans back to Germany an if people want to focus on the journey there that is fine.
If thy don't want to paly the fight between the two Generals that is also fine, we can kill the Russians on board and present the General's head to his enemies then go on.
If people really don't like the way Griet is running things se can be retired, if there's a block to the smooth running of the game coming from me I will remove it.
I have loved helping to create the story of this game and I'm grateful to Rae for giving me that opportunity: the story and having fun is the most important thing, getting my own way isn't.
There is however a need to make decisions rapidly and given the turn-around or the game grinds to a halt. I have experienced this in other games and part of the way I post reflects that experience. If someone else is willing to do the heavy lifting of command I'm happy to transition to the background like I did in Rae's other game.
Please not, I am not getting at any other player. I'm happy to work with you all and get over any difficulties I've caused but if I'm the problem here, I'm an easy one to solve.
Also, to the older players, this is not me falling on my sword looking for support or sympathy. I don't feel forced or pressured into doing this nor is it a veiled plea to e talked out of it. I don't want this to become an argument.
To e new players: even if you haven]t considered me a problem but think that having Griet out of the way would make things smoother the offer is still there.
Eric Phillips
 player, 25 posts
 Spartan-117
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:01
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Yeah, it's my character's MOS that's the problem.  <rolleyes>  That's why he's roaming around on the deck with an empty rifle and has to have an escort to the toilet while a Soviet General, his two staff Officers, and four BEST soldiers are, from what I can tell, armed, roaming the ship at will, and being given the Captain's cabin.

I'm sorry you guys have been fuxored by other players.  I really am.  But the verisimilitude and meta problems with just the above issue are a-fucking-mazing to me and not in the good way.

Oh, you're an NPC medic - let's arm you.  Oh, you are a PC - here's the armory - you can look but you can't touch.

Maybe Rae can just NPC everyone you'll ever need or meet.  Maybe in a few years there be three or four of you left in the game.  Rae + 2/3 plus 5000 NPCs.  Because by then the history here will be so epic that no player will stand a chance of being able to join successfully.  I mean, you guys can't get over shit from what, two years ago when the game was shut down?

This is the invitation I got to join this game.  I'm running the first motherfucking suggestion Rae provided for acceptable PCs this campaign:

Your prospective PCs could be Green Berets or other SOF (or true Polish FC patriots, or whatever) that were attached to the 2nd PFL as trainers, liaisons, specialists, etc. but have left the unit as Anders becomes more ambitious and despotic.

There seems to be a huge disconnect between what the GAME MASTER is telling people will work, and what you the players think will work.  Maybe you as the players and Rae as the ref have some shit to work out.

Just do it without me.  Thanks.

Raellus:
You guys are the best. It's hard to imagine what GM'ing was like before y'all joined team Raellus. I don't want to. So, thanks. I really mean it.

As you might have heard, I'm fixing to fire up Twilight Cruise, my Pirates of the Vistula/Ruins of Warsaw/to the Baltic campaign, and I want- no, need- you guys to join me. I know that you're involved in a lot of PbP's ATM, maybe too many, but I don't want to do this without you. Some of the utility players have signed up already, but I need All Stars- you guys- to make this worthwhile.

Think about it. If you're overcommitted, I understand. I'll be super disappointed, but I'll understand. If you're interested, I can add you all as a batch job or piecemeal, whichever you prefer.

One possible intro hook is that the tug will soon be passing through territory where the 2nd Polish Free Legion. Here's what Going Home has to say about them:

Polish 2nd Free Legion: 150 men (Formerly Polish 10 BGB): Major Anders is proceeding with his secret dream to carve out a feudal kingdom in west central Poland. The 2nd PFL now has about 150 fairly well-equipped regulars (although they are short of support weapons) and another 100 or so less well armed civilian guerrillas. In addition, Anders has persuaded the commander of the Polish 4 Border Guard Brigade (now occupying Dabrowka) to join forces with him, and has agents working to conclude a similar takeover of the Polish 12th Cavalry Division.

Sounds like a wannabe warlord. Your prospective PCs could be Green Berets or other SOF (or true Polish FC patriots, or whatever) that were attached to the 2nd PFL as trainers, liaisons, specialists, etc. but have left the unit as Anders becomes more ambitious and despotic. This is just a suggestion so if you'd rather go with a different backstory (USMC TF Inchon escapees from Elblag, perhaps), that's fine too. I just want you on board.

Here's the link to the game:

Link back to this game

Let me know if you have any questions. Feel free to discuss this amongst yourselves. I'll be around.

-

This message was last edited by the player at 18:24, Sat 11 July 2015.

Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 883 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:08
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I am very sorry you feel that way.
Mark Scully
 player, 36 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:20
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Mark, from my point of view there certainly hasn't been the level of involvement in decision making that I expect but the problem isn't Griet. Actually, I haven't had any involvement in decision making. You and Andy both know how involved in that I am in Fusilier's game. On an OOC level I expect a similar level of involvement in this game when decisions are to be made. I am a player, I am a stakeholder in this game. I also accept that there are those who are quite happy to let others do the planning for them, but I'm not one of them.

I tried to involve myself in the latest round of planning only to wake up the next morning to find out that the decision had already been made unilaterally (by Bayer, not Griet) to go with Griet's plan (which I think has a multitude of flaws). I accept your point about the need to keep momentum, however in my opinion momentum could have been maintained quite easily by Bayer posting that we could discuss options back on the boat or similar. That would also have given those of us who might want to be involved IC but couldn't do so because they'd tried to inject a bit of realism into the proceedings which meant their character wasn't at the free lunch - i.e Scully - to get involved.

So I have no issue with Griet. But that I'm afraid is one of the largest parts of the problem Mark is that since we boarded the boat on 15 June I do not believe Bayer has made a single post that acknowledges that the USN party even exist, far less engage with any of us directly. Here's an example - after the fight ashore Kane spoke directly to him (msg 243)

Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane:
Lizzie readjusts her clothes to conceal the radio as much as possible, then moseys over to Konrad, still buzzing slightly from the fight.  She gives the man a quick update on her deployment of resources before asking the obvious question: "So if a Russian wants to deal, we deal?"

This was his reply (msg 254)

Konrad Bayer:
Bayer climbs off the man he'd pinned to the ground and takes a step back, finding himself being aided by Tucker - to which he nods his thanks. It was at that moment his radio crackled with Griet's voice. Then toggling the transmit switch he replies, "King, roger... back soon. Out."

"Is everyone ok?" he asked aloud, taking a step back from the Russians and back to his own people. Busted lips and sore muscles was one thing, broken bones another. Bayer then glances at his watch, noting the time, and briefly estimates whether they was still time to continue. Probably not.

"We're heading back." he announces. Then just to be sure nobody thought it had anything to do with the scrap, he adds, "We're out of time."

There is no acknowledgement of Kane or response to her question in his reply whatsoever.

To be fair, Fusilier isn't the only one ignoring us. But he is the nominal ic leader of Konrad's Kommandos, and it makes it very difficult for me to feel that the majority of you guys want us in this game when the group's leader is ignoring the fact that we exist. And can we please stop using "it's because you're playing NATO Special Forces types" as an excuse? This has become as much an ooc issue as it has an ic one and that excuse doesn't wash ooc.

If anyone wants to reread the previous posts - which is what I've just done - and find me a post where Fusilier has explicitly spoken to any of us after Sunday 14 June I'd be grateful if they could point it out to me.

So yeah. I'm afraid right now it feels like the majority of you would rather we weren't here.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 884 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:31
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Thank you for your input. I think part of the problem with the last of the decisions was that I gave Rae a post to use if the deadline for the post hit and then we had a fast forward where people didn't get a chance to contribute. In essence I failed to either play for time or allow a get out where we could change the decision if people disagreed. I thought I had done that in what I said but obviously failed miserably.
I didn't expect the General to jump wholeheartedly on the option and also expected time whilst the tug was being repaired to discuss things properly and come up with a mutually agreed plan.
I think the best option will be for Griet to become an NPC that will leave the decision making more open. I can't speak for Fuse and won't put words in his mouth either.
Again, I am sorry if I have been precious about he game, it was never my intention but that is obviously what has happened. It was always my intention to get the new characters to b armed properly as soon as I could but again, I made a major error by not saying that immediately that we got back on the river when I posted last. No doing so was very remiss of me.
Mark Scully
 player, 37 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:40
Re: The Airing of Grievances
The most recent decision was only an example. As I said, since I joined this game I have not had the opportunity to get involved in any sort of decision making. When there was a discussion about carrying out a recce of the market square I was told I would have to run my plan through Bayer. There's a post from Tucker where he looks to Bayer for permission to speak. It appears that Bayer runs this show and there seems to be an expectation in this game that lower ranked pc's will simply do as they are told. I don't want to play in the sort of T2K game where all I can do is say "Yes, Sir, which seat should I take in the vehicle, Sir?" And when the guy who runs the show doesn't acknowledge that I even exist that's a problem for me.

So I repeat, I have no issue with Griet. Whether you continue to play her or you and Rae agree to move her to NPC status is absolutely nothing to do with this problem and wont do anything to resolve it.
Anders Mattson
 player, 149 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:42
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I need to raise the point of realism. You run in to a team of people, who say they are Nato SOF, look like them, sound like them and all that jazz. They claim to be still fighting the war you have already somewhat forsaken. All they have as proof is their word on who they are and you have no possibility of checking whether they are whom they claim to be. Would you trust them fully, or take precautions?

Having been the same situation in a different game (I was an Imperial Officer, who defected to a Rebel-aligned strike team), I know being scrutinized can grow old pretty soon, but I still do ask you to roleplay the thing out. I am pretty sure, none of the old players is looking to be difficult with you as players, but are simply playing their characters, characters that are trying to get by in a world gone to hell.

As for Griet, I've never had a problem with her. She is the best suited character for commanding the Queen by background, possibly followed by Anders, who is a naval officer and a professional sailor.

So, this boils down to one piece of advice, if you allow me. Give it some time. A good leader must know how to be a good subordinate as well. Once this first operation is over and done with, it is more than likely, you will be let in with full priviledges. Doing that right away would, in my most sincere opinion, be poor roleplaying. Even if one is not included in all decission making, and in a military or paramilitary unit with proper command hierarchy one rarely is, it doesn't mean they would not be contributing to the story or were simply secondary characters.
Eric Phillips
 player, 26 posts
 Spartan-117
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:45
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Anders Mattson:
I need to raise the point of realism. You run in to a team of people, who say they are Nato SOF, look like them, sound like them and all that jazz. They claim to be still fighting the war you have already somewhat forsaken. All they have as proof is their word on who they are and you have no possibility of checking whether they are whom they claim to be. Would you trust them fully, or take precautions?


I'd take precautions against the Soviet General, his two officers, and four elite troops who are now aboard the ship.  That's who I'd take precautions against.  But you guy's aren't climbing all over yourselves to do that, now are you?

This message was last edited by the player at 18:46, Sat 11 July 2015.

Mark Scully
 player, 38 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:48
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm afraid you've missed several points.

Anders Mattson:
I need to raise the point of realism. You run in to a team of people, who say they are Nato SOF, look like them, sound like them and all that jazz. They claim to be still fighting the war you have already somewhat forsaken. All they have as proof is their word on who they are and you have no possibility of checking whether they are whom they claim to be. Would you trust them fully, or take precautions?

Yes, precautions were taken.

No such precautions were taken re: the Russian group you have just embarked or your new medic who you have never met before.

Anders Mattson:
So, this boils down to one piece of advice, if you allow me. Give it some time. A good leader must know how to be a good subordinate as well. Once this first operation is over and done with, it is more than likely, you will be let in with full priviledges. Doing that right away would, in my most sincere opinion, be poor roleplaying. Even if one is not included in all decission making, and in a military or paramilitary unit with proper command hierarchy one rarely is, it doesn't mean they would not be contributing to the story or were simply secondary characters.

I am referring to ooc decision making, not ic. That is me, the player, being actively involved in the game I am playing in. This is nothing to do with the ic military hierarchy.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 885 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 18:58
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I would agree that the point isn't realism here, it is not allowing people the say they want in the game. The realisation of which is really upsetting me because I think they are right.
It was my intention that before we headed off we'd b able to give everyone more control and get the empty guns/escort problem ironed out. That didn't happen and I apologise for that. I got caught up in telling a story not playing a co-operative game.
That will not happen again. Arguing the semantics of story will not help. What will help is that some of us have been inhospitable as players, not as characters and that can't happen. How we go on, I'm not sure but arguing if someone is right or wrong won't help. There will be no winners only losers.
Whether we think it is right or not doesn't matter: if one player's perception is different to ours then it is a problem we all need to sort out. We need to slow the pace of things down here and let everyone have the input they want.
That may well lead to a slowing of the pace of the game but unless everyone is happy then there is no game.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1690 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:23
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Mark Scully:
The most recent decision was only an example. As I said, since I joined this game I have not had the opportunity to get involved in any sort of decision making. When there was a discussion about carrying out a recce of the market square I was told I would have to run my plan through Bayer. There's a post from Tucker where he looks to Bayer for permission to speak. It appears that Bayer runs this show and there seems to be an expectation in this game that lower ranked pc's will simply do as they are told. I don't want to play in the sort of T2K game where all I can do is say "Yes, Sir, which seat should I take in the vehicle, Sir?" And when the guy who runs the show doesn't acknowledge that I even exist that's a problem for me.

That is the way Tucker has been played since day one.  I'm sorry if that concerns you but, that works for me for this character.  He looks at it as a matter of respect too.  Tucker has been afforded many times to express what are his opinions, as well as other team/crew members, on a plan or an idea.  With the tension of the situation, we aren't there yet BUT, we need to get there soon!

We need to work this out or we might just as well call it quits.  WE need to work out with the group we just picked up (Scully, Phillips (if he's still going to play), Lizzie, & Ana) first and then, terms with the Russians.  We shouldn't have fellow FRIENDLIES with more restrictions than the PACT troops.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 886 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:26
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Absolutely, the Russians are on board and armed, every one needs to be. I just wish I'd said it as soon as the turn moved on.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 29 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:41
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Branching two existing parties is never going to be easy.  There is the new group coming in versus the old group, and while there is cross-over familiarity between some of the players, several of us have little to no relationship.  And I can certainly accept that people are possessive of the story they have crafted through years of effort together.

I am certainly willing to shoulder some responsibility, I built a command level character that maybe I haven't been playing forceful enough to get us a seat at the table, but I was hoping, as I think everybody probably was, that we would get there organically.  There still remain bugs to work out on that score.  And I will admit, we are playing characters that have ties to the still existing power structures of the world.  And they are following orders with an agenda that has not been revealed yet.  What I'm trying to do is respect the spirit of reality while metagaming enough that we can all enjoy the story.

Several existing PCs have made overtures to our new PCs and those have been appreciated. As Dave as has said, there were several conversation branches offered on our part to get a seat at the decision making table and most were ignored.  I probably could have been more proactive in having Lizzie sit down with (for example) Tucker and shoot the shit, but I figured she would be more inclined to speak with Griet and Konrad.  Tried that and had some success with Griet (and Mark, thank you for the effort).  I would echo (again) what has already been said and agree that Griet as a PC is fine, for me.  The Captain of the vessel should have a PC seat at the table.

This is a large group of players with some fundamental differences in playing and writing style.  Without passing judgement or declaring bad/wrong fun, that is going to cause friction.  Momentum is important, but not at the expense of enjoyment.  If people want a seat at the decision table, that needs to be provided for whether their PC would have a say or not.  Lizzie can parrot someone else's awesome ideas just fine.  As a player I want agency in the story.  There are times that the CO can shoot orders and the rest of us will adapt (say for instance, combat), but looking for guidance at every turn wears on me quickly. Especially when the guidance is late and/or minimal or just ignores the questions/suggestion I bring up ("hey we need more brains on this play, let's say yes and we'll get everyone back together to brainstorm up a good plan").

Patience is important, yes.  But this has been dragging out in real life for weeks and it needs to get resolved.  Hopefully this conversation can address that. To role-play the subordinate position, I have to have a superior position to play subordinate to.  If I wanted to play in a totally realistic para-military hierarchy, I would just go to work.  We are here to create stories, together, that hopefully we all will enjoy.  Our grip on totally accurate representation may have to loosen a little and I have probably been as guilty of that as anyone.

That was long and rambling.  Let me finish by saying I don't think we have bad people here, just different styles and expectations.  Hopefully we can find some way to mesh them and move forward.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 30 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:45
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker:
That is the way Tucker has been played since day one.  I'm sorry if that concerns you but, that works for me for this character.  He looks at it as a matter of respect too.  Tucker has been afforded many times to express what are his opinions, as well as other team/crew members, on a plan or an idea.


Ah, that makes more sense to me then.

I'm asking here, no sarcasm intended, is it possible to write those into a post?  Is that the style that has been agreed upon?  For instance, could I write, "Lizzie looks at Konrad, and receiving his nod, continues with her line of questioning?" or would that be overstepping?
Anders Mattson
 player, 150 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:46
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I do see your points, there. Having slept about two hours after the night shift ended 15 hours ago does not really help with logic.

Now, since we're airing out matters, I do feel at times nobody actually reads some of my posts in the OOC, or if they do, it is not acknowledged. Okay, they may be a bit borish, but I can stand with you guys telling me to shut up rather than ignoring me. ;^)

Anyway, the Russians are outnumbered and we're working for their causes, which gives them little reason to kick us in to the teeth as long as we're doing their bidding. It isn't absolute insurance against them doing so regardless, but it is better than nothing. Now that they are aboard, it is far more difficult to disarm them - it should have been done right when they stepped on board.
Mark Scully
 player, 39 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:57
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane:
I'm asking here, no sarcasm intended, is it possible to write those into a post?  Is that the style that has been agreed upon?  For instance, could I write, "Lizzie looks at Konrad, and receiving his nod, continues with her line of questioning?" or would that be overstepping?

Why would you feel the need to seek approval? I'd simply post "Lizzie continues her line of questioning."

This message was last edited by the player at 19:57, Sat 11 July 2015.

Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 887 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 19:59
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Hopefully we can come to some better conclusions this time. There is a major planning session coming down the line and all options are still open, we can still double cross the Russians or anything else suggested.

I'm going to go to bed now so don't think I'm ignoring anyone. I'll be back on again in about 12 hours.
Eric Phillips
 player, 27 posts
 Spartan-117
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 20:11
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Anders Mattson:
Anyway, the Russians are outnumbered and we're working for their causes, which gives them little reason to kick us in to the teeth as long as we're doing their bidding. It isn't absolute insurance against them doing so regardless, but it is better than nothing. Now that they are aboard, it is far more difficult to disarm them - it should have been done right when they stepped on board.


See, this is what makes me think we are treating the symptoms and not the disease.

You are working for the Russian's cause.. Great.  That's gotta be true because they said so over a single 20 minute meeting right?  Clearly you've got them pegged.  It's only us PCs who might be lying lyertons using lies to get aboard your boat and play the long game, bidding our time until we can stand on the crows nest and fire an RPG into the deck killing everyone below.

Let me spell it out.  Several of you come across like Player Character ... hell, I don't even know what the right term would be.  Character-ists?  Player Haters?

You assume you totally understand the motivation, complexity, and end-game of all of Rae's NPCs, but us PCs must have a hidden agenda.  It's an ongoing meta issue perhaps because you have been screwed over by previous PCs?

If you were going to have some continuity and be paranoid vs. everyone, that would be one thing.  Yeah you should have taken the guns before.  But that didn't seem to cross any of your minds because they are just NPCs.  That's why Kentucky got aboard so easily.  It's only our PCs you guys are worried about.

That's a major structural issue for this game.  And it's just one of several that I see.

All that said, I do appreciate Mark's apology.

This message was last edited by the player at 20:22, Sat 11 July 2015.

Mark Scully
 player, 40 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 20:16
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Has Jelena Tamm been disarmed?

And if not why not?
Craig Sutherland
 player, 728 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 20:28
Re: The Airing of Grievances

To be honest I am apprehensive to add anything to this conversation given the warnings about player behavior that were thrown out there a couple of weeks ago. Sorry if my posts have not been up to scratch, but it is partly due to my work load and also I am on the road a lot so most of my posts are done using my phone, not a pleasant experience. Also Craig is not much of a people person.

First off I got the feeling pretty early on that the game was resurrected not for the benefit of the original players. We now have two very distinct groups within the game and I can't really see how we are going to gel these two groups together given that any solution we come up with will not in anyway seem realistic.

Secondly there was the point made of Konrad/Fuse stepping aside in the command role and I think that may have spooked some people.

The "strong woman" type has to much history with this group and to suddenly welcome a senior officer that seems to the boat crew to be a Anneka, Boots clone who after a day IG wants to make the decisions for the group doesn't sit well I would expect. Sorry I have not been privy to any of the PM's so I don't know if any of this has come out OOC, it has certainly been hinted at in game. A little in game time or making the decision as a group OOC would probably have made more sense.

Also some of the first interactions between the two groups was to be call deserters and sorry I don't think a place would have even been offered after that. A quick ride to the nearest town maybe or a short ferry to the other side of the river perhaps.

I have played with several of you in other games and they have gone well and some have not. To be honest I think helbent4 made some points early on OOC that a few people were feeling.

Cymon.

This message was last edited by the player at 20:38, Sat 11 July 2015.

Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 31 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 20:52
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Mark Scully:
</quote>
Why would you feel the need to seek approval? I'd simply post "Lizzie continues her line of questioning."


In all honesty, that's probably how I would write it.  I guess my bigger point is trying to gauge how much room people have for puppeting another character to keep post flow moving.

@Cymon
Given that I have no clue who Boots is I'm going to refute the clone comment.  As both a player and a character I would expect a seat at the decision table, at an input level, as was agreed upon.  I don't recall issuing orders to the crew, nor do I have interest in running the crew.  Mark has been handling that end just fine.  I do have an interest in ensuring the crew that came on board does have some agency in the game, and that is why Lizzie was built at rank.  This is still the original crews game, albeit with some new twists.  We talked, at length, a few weeks ago about the deserter/patriot divide, and I continue believe that handeled correctly could provide good fodder for role playing.

Yes, I was asked to come on board.  I've been asked to come several games.  This is the first I've joined in the middle of and I accept a learning curve.  But it was made clear to me that Rae wanted everybody back as they were all part of his vision.
Anastasjia Kovac
 player, 18 posts
 U.S. State Department
 Tegyrius
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 20:56
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Funny, no one expressed a problem the last time I introduced four PCs and NPCs from Air Force Special Operations Command.  From where I sit, the real problem is that some long-established players have a knee-jerk paranoia toward any character whose personal story concept extends beyond shutting up and unquestioningly following Konrad's orders.  Which is darkly hilarious considering how adamant you are that the tug is not under military command.

I've been sitting on this for a few months at Rae's request, but since we're having this conversation, I'm going to put it on the table.  When Rae told me he was restarting this game, my immediate reaction was weary revulsion.  Unlike Keys, Dave, or Spartan, I've been on this particular carousel before and I wanted no part of it again.  When I finally did let Rae talk me into rejoining, it was under the explicit condition that my character would never be under the command of any PC run by Cymon, with a very strong implication of extending that limit to Fusilier.  That, in part, is why the newly-arrived PCs are a cohesive and independent team.

For those who don't remember (or who were too oblivious to connect the dots the first time), my previous PCs in this game were Daniel Larue and Dominique Connolly ("Boots").

The last time Rae shut this game down was in response to an IC interaction that went OOC backstage.  The tug had found a settlement composed entirely of women and children.  A shore party had made contact with the intent of trading surplus small arms (of which we had too many to count) and Larue's medical services for food.  At some point during the initial contacts, Connolly told several of the male PCs to rein in their usual levels of aggression and not go anywhere unaccompanied so as not to spook the locals or give them any excuse to levy accusations against the tug's crew.

I will note for the record and for Cymon's benefit that this was the first time she had exerted any IC authority, precisely because I was trying to avoid playing her anything like the late, unlamented Anneke.

Craig (Cymon's PC, then and now) responded with a misogynistic dismissal of Connolly's gender, professional qualifications, and rank (for the record: him,  Lieutenant; her, Major).  As a player, I was too taken aback by the vitriol in that post to compose an appropriate IC response until Rae had moved the scene back to the tug, at which point Konrad's only acknowledgement of the incident was to tacitly support Craig's actions and similarly dismiss Connolly, along with a slap on the wrist for what he and Craig considered an unbalanced initial trade of surplus small arms for food.

I attempted OOC resolution in PM with both Cymon and Fusilier and received equally curt dismissals.

At that point, I told Rae I was leaving the game because I could not see any logical IC continuation of those events that would not result in Craig being, at minimum, beaten to within an inch of his life once the rest of Connolly's aircrew found out about his words.  It was more likely that Danny, who had an established on-screen history of being irrationally protective of his people, would have simply murdered Craig and dumped his body over the stern with ten kilos of ballast chained to his ankles.  And I was not going to be the disruptive player who brought PC-on-PC violence back into this game.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 888 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 21:34
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Couldn't sleep.

I was unaware of the issue with Boots, I thought it was over an argument about selling guns for cheap. If I'd known I would have tried to smooth things over and probably have failed miserably.

The way Boots was brought on board was rather different to the introduction of the new characters and comparing the two may be a little unfair.

As is comparing how we've treated the Russians and the new group. Again, the way the decision was made was wrong I grant but I envisaged that we'd accept the mission and have a turn where the boat was being fixed and we could plan, come to a proper decision with the new group that would include running before the General came on board but after the boat was fixed as well as sorting out security and getting everyone armed.

The next turn took up more time than that however an didn't give u the time to do that. I had intended to do it as soon as I had done the admin type posts so people knew where they were before the meeting over food. I was preparing that with Mariusz' post about the food.

I was unaware of the bad blood and if I have contributed to increasing that I am sorry.

The point about the "look but don't touch on the armoury" I nagging as well: it was shown to you so you could decide what needed to go on the recon as soon as the command group had reported back, a command group that included Lizzie.

If that didn't come over again I apologise.
Craig Sutherland
 player, 729 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sat 11 Jul 2015
at 21:35
Re: The Airing of Grievances
In reply to Anastasjia Kovac (msg # 192):

As I said to you in the OCC and in PM there was no ill will from me as a player it was an IC observation by my Character. I then apologized in the OCC if you had taken this the wrong way. I was also on the road and unable to access the internet for several days.
Minh Quyen
 player, 723 posts
 SP4, U.S. Army MP
 JinnySong2
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 02:25
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I don't think its really a matter of special forces backgrounds at all. I believe the new players helped alienate themselves with their PC's entry which was handled badly. I say handled badly because if they weren't PCs they (I'm sure) would not have been given a pass and permitted on the boat. Why would they? From the start they made it clear that they didn't respect the boat's leadership organization and they weren't going to take no for any answer... a sort of "We're coming aboard whether you like it or not". I'm sorry if you don't think that would have any negative fallout IC or OOC.
Eric Phillips
 player, 28 posts
 Spartan-117
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 02:30
Re: The Airing of Grievances
<rhetorical question>Perhaps the issue of the invitation from the Ref played into that?</rhetorical question>
Minh Quyen
 player, 724 posts
 SP4, U.S. Army MP
 JinnySong2
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 02:37
Re: The Airing of Grievances
If you are asking me I don't know anything about that... I'm only speaking from my perspective.

What I was getting at before was just saying a little bit of self reflection (along with the finger pointing) might be in order for everyone. Regardless of what was part of any invitation or behind the scenes setup the gameplay was handled badly for what was supposed to be a positive future between everyone.

This message was last edited by the player at 02:38, Sun 12 July 2015.

Konrad Bayer
 player, 1937 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 04:44
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I have been quiet here lately. I didn't like how the integration was handled. It was ridiculous, crazy really, and I had to compromise a character that I've created and gotten attached to over the many years. For Bayer things were never it's my way of the highway and I'm a dictator by the way, but in any case that's just what happened in the game and real life. So it bothered me OOC just as much as things did IC.

Afterwards things didn't feel the same and I honestly had no idea how to respond. Whatever IC posts that I came up with either sounded ridiculous (unnatural) or they were realistic... which actually wasn't good for the game. I don't expect everyone to understand, but that's how it is from me.

Rae asked me to go along with it and try, and I agreed, because I wanted things to work. My solution was to keep to the sidelines, hoping that over time things would smooth out, and then I would try to get back into it... maybe it would feel right again. Apparently my solution wasn't a good idea.

Anastasjia Kovac:
When I finally did let Rae talk me into rejoining, it was under the explicit condition that my character would never be under the command of any PC run by Cymon, with a very strong implication of extending that limit to Fusilier.


I would like to know more about the strong implication part. Are you saying that you're only here because you demanded and got concessions - that your PC would never be under my character's command? I'm not clear on this and I really want to know for sure.
Anders Mattson
 player, 151 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 05:09
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Easier said than done, but I believe all those who have had past grievances need to push them in to the past and wipe the slate clean. We, the players, are all humans with human emotions (and I believe that extends to the GM as well). Our characters are humans with human emotions and imperfections. For an example, Anders is most likely suffering from some level of PTSD from both likely being the sole survivor from his ship and from what he has seen since he landed in Poland. While the first bout of it was brought on by my personal inactivity for a reason or another and GM reaction to that, I've come to play him as mentally instable ever since.

What my point is, our characters, no matter the original concept, change and develop during the play. We need to understand that not every military commander is a perfect one - those who have served know very well what I am talking about.

So, the integration of the new characters fell on its ass? We're adults and we just need to roll with that. Or rather roleplay through it. I am trying to say, this is a roleplaying game, not a pure military simulation where personalities do not matter.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 889 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 05:18
Re: The Airing of Grievances
The last part of your post sums up my position on this medic, mistakes were made that I regret but now they've been pointed out I would like to prove I have learned from them by moving on and hopefully making it a better experience for everybody.
helbent4
 Lurker, 16 posts
 Lurking
 In Lurksville
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 09:54
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Anders Mattson:
Now, since we're airing out matters, I do feel at times nobody actually reads some of my posts in the OOC, or if they do, it is not acknowledged. Okay, they may be a bit borish, but I can stand with you guys telling me to shut up rather than ignoring me. ;^)


Ha ha! I feel your pain, brother. Regarding your story of playing in the SWRPG my former character in this game (Dawid) was in a similar situation. Changing that took time and patience, plus the understanding on my part I couldn't always have things my way. A lesson worth noting here.

Konrad and Griet evolved into the de facto leaders of the group not through some understanding with the GM or a random roll during character creation but because they were the ones others wanted to follow. They didn't always make the best choices or made popular decisions. They paid their dues and earned the respect of others who did as well.

Giving Konrad and Griet enough rank (per the RDF Sourcebook) to exert some kind of legitimate command authority seems like a sensible solution here; it would have helped in the previously cited examples and it will help in the future. (That is if new command level PCs are permitted in the future, which should be seriously reconsidered.) Fuse might not want Konrad to get sucked into the regular military again but good characters do evolve over time. It's worth considering.

Tony
Anastasjia Kovac
 player, 19 posts
 U.S. State Department
 Tegyrius
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 12:01
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Konrad Bayer:
I would like to know more about the strong implication part. Are you saying that you're only here because you demanded and got concessions - that your PC would never be under my character's command? I'm not clear on this and I really want to know for sure.


I'm only here because I demanded and got the concession that my PC would never be under the command of any PC run by Cymon.  I wasn't enthusiastic about having my PC fall under your character's command because of the incident mentioned above and your OOC dismissal of it.  I did express strong concerns about your play of Bayer based on that incident, but I did not make exclusion from Bayer's command an explicit condition for joining.

To elaborate a little more: Connolly started off as an NPC in Larue's back story.  I later picked her up as a secondary PC because I didn't want Rae to use her as ablative armor for the boat.  Her rank was a function of her back story as an NPC.  When created, she was never intended to serve any sort of command role.  When I took her over as a PC, she still wasn't intended to usurp any sort of command, as you, Rae, and I explicitly discussed in PM at the time.  Her IC comments at the Amazon village had nothing to do with some deranged idea that she was trying to pull rank for the sake of being an Anneke clone.  They came from her being a female approaching a community of females with obvious psychological trauma involving military-age males - and the fact that no other PC but Mariusz had openly acknowledged the roleplaying problem Rae had thrown at us.  But she was still a USAF command pilot with all the training and skills such a background entails, and she wasn't going to hesitate to speak up if a problem was in her lane.

When you ICly and OOCly supported Cymon/Craig's dismissal of her as an officer, team member, and human being, you - in your leadership role as a player - effectively made her unplayable as anything beyond a mindless, voiceless automaton programmed to follow Konrad's orders unquestioningly.  That is the position I wasn't willing to be in again as a player.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 35 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 13:46
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I've got to say as a new player in this game that I've not got any particular grievances. Although I can see why others might have.

This message was last edited by the player at 13:47, Sun 12 July 2015.

Eric Phillips
 player, 29 posts
 Spartan-117
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 13:56
Re: The Airing of Grievances
In reply to helbent4 (msg # 201):

This is not about IC rank.  From my POV, this about players not willing to suborn your Character's RPing in an effort to allow everyone to participate and craft a shared narrative together.  When people are more invested in ‘RPing their PC’ than creating a collaborate player base that is working together, there is a problem.  That's doubly so when your PC is a nominal leader of the group.

And once again, the Verisimilitude argument of "I didn't/won't/can't/shouldn't do that because it goes against my character concept" doesn't carry any water with me because you just embarked 7 armed Sovs on your boat after Бизнес ланч.

I mean, maybe the General didn't want to send wave after wave of his men against the boat while it was docked given all the heavy weapons that Krowla can bring to bear.  He told you he values his men.  Yeah, they could take the boat while dock side, but at what cost?  Maybe hijacking from the inside is the better play.  Of course you don't really feel like you are taking that risk and why is that?  Are Rae's NPCs that transparent?

This message had punctuation tweaked by the player at 13:57, Sun 12 July 2015.

Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 890 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 13:59
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Sorry, Spartan, I thought I'd explained that issue twice. I don't know which other way I can explain it. If it is such a sticking point for you as I've said, I am more than happy to step down.
Eric Phillips
 player, 30 posts
 Spartan-117
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 15:50
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Griet Niewiadomska:
Sorry, Spartan, I thought I'd explained that issue twice. I don't know which other way I can explain it. If it is such a sticking point for you as I've said, I am more than happy to step down.


You have and I appreciate it.  That fact that you recognize the need for a change speaks volumes.  IMHO, any activity with more than one human participating in it, is going to require some compromise.

I guess what I'm looking for is something akin to:

Everyone who is willing to compromise their character in the interest of group cohesion, shared story telling, and overall inclusiveness, take one step forward.  Everyone who can't do that, take one step back.  Front rank, attention to promotion.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 32 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 17:45
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm taking the family camping until Tuesday and won't be posting until that evening.  I remain hopeful that we can work this out.

I will be monitoring via iPhone.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1691 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 18:43
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm sorry to say but, this is really ridiculous.

Both sides could've been better, I think we all agree?  I think we all are on the same page with that?

Instead of going forward right away, we need to go back and sit down with ALL of the PC's BEFORE the General and his staff come aboard with the NPC medic and set aside this bullshit and get on with the game.

I'm sorry if my game style isn't for some people but, with my schedule, it works for me.  If you don't like it, then maybe I should step out and not hold anyone back over fuckin' role-playing MY character.
Eric Phillips
 player, 31 posts
 Spartan-117
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 18:53
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker:
I'm sorry if my game style isn't for some people but, with my schedule, it works for me.  If you don't like it, then maybe I should step out and not hold anyone back over fuckin' role-playing MY character.


Pretty much exactly what I thought when I needed a permission slip to get off the boat to do surveillance at the meeting site.

This message was last edited by the player at 19:27, Sun 12 July 2015.

Craig Sutherland
 player, 730 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 19:31
Re: The Airing of Grievances
In reply to Anastasjia Kovac (msg # 202):

Of course none of the previous bad blood was mentioned IC or OCC in Rae's other campaign we played together in for over a year, but then you were calling the shots and in command.

To be honest your post just confirmed what a lot of people were suspecting. It confirmed why the game restarted and that it had nothing to do with the original players who had put so much time and effort into the campaign. It explains that the current unworkable situation was a direct result of you grudgingly consenting to rejoin a “revolting” campaign. Also that it does not matter how long we play you will never be able to serve under Fuses character for some imagined in character slight that you can't let go of in real life.

So how are we to go about gelling the two groups ?

How long is it since my character insulted your character in game, two maybe three years do you think you have held the grudge long enough?

This message was last edited by the player at 19:35, Sun 12 July 2015.

Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3047 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 20:52
Re: The Airing of Grievances

I've been quietly monitoring the discussion here, waiting for everyone to have their say before adding my input. Most of you have been mature and respectful during this discussion and I thank you for that. I think that most of you are interested in resolving whatever conflict that exists here, and problem-solving a way out of it, and I thank those people for their efforts as well.

From my vantage point, there are at least three major issues that we need to resolve before we have any real hope of saving this game.

1. IC and OOC interaction and interpersonal relationships
2. Decision making structure (i.e. command)
3. GM expectations vs. player expectations

These are the core of the frustration and acrimony here. I will attempt to address all of these issues. In no particular order...

Part of the current frustration is the pace of the game. I sometimes push the game forward before all of you are ready to move forward with me. An example would be the quick transition from town to river in the last turn post. My intentions were, I think, good, but the execution likely caused more problems that it solved. My fear is that if I let the game linger on one episode for too long, people will get bored and lose interest. I've seen way too many PbP games atrophy and die due to low post rates. I tend to overcompensate to avoid this. That said, the post rate I've always shot for and tried to adhere to is one turn every two or three days. This has always been the case and it's clearly stated in the posting guidelines. At least five days had passed between the last two without a decision or consensus regarding how to proceed. Some players had posted multiple times during those six days, others once or not at all. Anyone not in on the IC "planning" was sidelined. When players don't drive the game, I feel the need to step in and drive it myself.

It's doubly tough when some players are engaging and others, whose input is required to reach a transition point, are not. 5-6 days between turn posts, IMHO, should be plenty of time to work towards a transition point IC, but if pivotal players aren't willing or able to put in the time and effort to do that, where does that leave the rest of us? When people miss turns without warning, it really complicates things. RL happens, I know, but when it becomes a pattern, it's a problem. It's doubly so when a leader PC goes silent.

Craig Sutherland:
To be honest your post just confirmed what a lot of people were suspecting. It confirmed why the game restarted and that it had nothing to do with the original players who had put so much time and effort into the campaign. It explains that the current unworkable situation was a direct result of you grudgingly consenting to rejoin a “revolting” campaign. Also that it does not matter how long we play you will never be able to serve under Fuses character for some imagined in character slight that you can't let go of in real life.


I really resent the implication here, Cymon. It's unfair and unwarranted. If I'd just wanted to run a campaign for the four new guys, I could have started a private, invite-only game just for them. I didn't do that, so obviously that wasn't my intent. I wanted all of you guys on board. I pushed the new guys to join because I felt that their active playing style would help with the pace and IC decision-making issue that I've addressed above.

Furthermore, "Imagined in character slight[s]" can ruin games. As we've seen here, it's really difficult to separate IC conflict and OOC conflict. RPG'ing with other people, whether it's face-to-face at the table or over the internet, is about relationships, both IC and OOC. When one plays fast and loose with IC relationships, that often translates to OOC. IC conflict can be fun to participate in and entertaining to watch- that is, as long both players have agreed ahead of time to RP intense interpersonal IC conflict. AFAIK, that never happened before the blow-up that scuppered the game a year-and-a-half ago. One can't simply say "no offense" OOC after upsetting someone IC and expect them to be OK about it. IC conflict can also muddy the waters between IC and OOC relationships, and it can poison both. That's what happened here.

I am partly to blame for the current interpersonal conflict here. Tegyrius was very reluctant to play in this relaunch of Cruise because he was/is still upset with what happened between Craig, Connelly, Bayer, and Larue before I pulled the plug. I wouldn't take no as an answer from him, so in a way, I brought some of that bad blood back into the game. I'm sorry for that.

Now to IG decision-making. First off, let me just say that playing a leader IC is a tough job. A leader character's decisions can affect the fate of other PCs and that's a burden. It's also challenging to RP out a more democratic IC decision making process given the medium (different time zones, different RL stuff we have to deal with, etc.), especially when there's a turn post deadline looming. That said, I don't think that most RP'ers are content to be told what to do all the time. I know that I am not. It's not fun. If I was happy to unquestioningly follow orders, I'd have joined the real military. Gamers want a sense of agency. In other words, they want a sense that they're decisions and actions have a direct influence on what happens next in the game. No? Some want that more than others- that's natural. But unilateral or even bi-lateral decision-making is not conducive to enjoyable RP'ing in a gaming group of 12 people. I'm not judging you if you're the type of person/player that doesn't mind just following orders. If you enjoy it, more power to you. But a lot of players, including all of the new guys, don't.

We worked out a command arrangement a couple of weeks ago but it's already broken down completely. If that compromise doesn't work, and a return to a unilateral command structure isn't acceptable (it's not), then I don't know how to solve this very major issue.

If I just throw scenarios at you and don't give you a chance to discuss how to approach them, then I'm railroading people. If that discussion isn't happening, and I move the game forward regardless, then I am railroading people. Either way, players lose that agency that they want. It puts me, as GM, in quite a predicament. As I said before, if the game doesn't move forward, I believe that it will stagnate and many, myself included, will lose interest.

I've done a lot of soul-searching and reflection over the past couple of days. I'm not sure that I am cut out to be a GM. I am too impatient. I think I expect too much of my players. I put a lot of effort into this and so I expect my players to reciprocate. Perhaps that is unfair. I'm not sure if I can significantly change my high expectations, though. I've tried and failed several times.

AFAIK, at this point, only Phillips has quit the game (if I understood him correctly; I'm not entirely sure). Does anyone else want out?

If you want to continue, then we need to work this out, not just sling blame back and forth. There are two sides to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in between. In order to move forward, folks need to be willing to forgive, compromise, and abide by the posting guidelines (ALL of them). If you can't or won't do any one of those things, then you really should quit.

DaleN is out. He's been AWOL for weeks with no explanation or warning. He did the same thing with Kasparov and I let him rejoin as Thijs. Disappearing without a word AGAIN is just rude and not cool. That's the sort of crap that makes this job a headache. All I ask is for some consideration. I hope that DaleN is OK. I bear him no ill will, but I will not GM for him again.

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 20:58, Sun 12 July 2015.

Eric Phillips
 player, 32 posts
 Spartan-117
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 21:02
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Cap'n Rae:
AFAIK, at this point, only Phillips has quit the game (if I understood him correctly; I'm not entirely sure). Does anyone else want out?


Correct.  When you cull Thijs  please add me to the list.

PS:




This message was last edited by the player at 21:18, Sun 12 July 2015.

Craig Sutherland
 player, 731 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 21:13
Re: The Airing of Grievances
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 211):

Sorry that probably did not come across like I intended. There just seemed to have been a lot of horse trading going on in the background.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1692 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 12 Jul 2015
at 21:42
Re: The Airing of Grievances
In reply to Cap'n Rae (msg # 211):

I would like to think this can be worked out.  I would prefer to work it out and make things right so there isn't any tension or, very little tension.  Once again, I think if we reset to just before we let the General and the new NPC medic on board, hammer out what needs to be done with an operations meeting, and then move forward.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1743 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 14 Jul 2015
at 00:01
Re: The Airing of Grievances
OK - firstly sorry for my absence for the last few days - RL stuff caught up with me.  Nothing bad but a lot of paperwork to deal with regarding moving house (I've bought a new one).

I haven't read the IC thread yet, just most of the discussion above.  I'm therefore not entirely sure what's happened to cause this issue because I thought that we were doing a reasonable job of muddling through merging the two groups.  Little bits of IC interactions between characters to build relationships and so on.  Maybe I've missed something though.

I would like to continue with the game and I think that most of the issues outlined above about two groups being pushed together can be resolved IC by a firefight.  The simple game mechanic of putting everyone under fire together will build some trust between people and that might be the easiest solution.
Craig Sutherland
 player, 732 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Tue 14 Jul 2015
at 01:04
Re: The Airing of Grievances
In reply to Robert 'Tuck' Tucker (msg # 214):

Sounds like a plan.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 33 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 12:28
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm back.

Catching up.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1693 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 14:42
Re: The Airing of Grievances
SO, just to recap, we're still all in except for Phillips' player?
Anders Mattson
 player, 152 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 15:50
Re: The Airing of Grievances
All in.
Jelena Tamm
 player, 36 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 16:06
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Still in.
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1228 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 16:09
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Here.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1744 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 16:13
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Still here.
Craig Sutherland
 player, 733 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 19:20
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Yes here.
Konrad Bayer
 player, 1938 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Wed 15 Jul 2015
at 22:27
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Here.
Anastasjia Kovac
 player, 20 posts
 U.S. State Department
 Tegyrius
Thu 16 Jul 2015
at 21:48
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm out.  While the IC issues may be resolvable, the OOC issues aren't going to be resolved if the other parties refuse to acknowledge that they even are issues.  Loath as I am to cede the field to such behavior (again), I no longer see a net benefit to staying in this game.

@Fusilier: To say I don't know what's going on with you would be an understatement.  Over in your game, you were pleasant, responsive, and easy to work with.  Here, you're barely communicative.  I've provided you with the elaboration you requested.  In the absence of a reply, I don't know how to take that other than another refusal to acknowledge my concerns, repeating the pattern that led me to quit the first time.

@Cymon: To directly answer the issues you raised up-thread: I mentioned my OOC issues with you to Rae when I saw you had joined Last War.  Then, as at the previous end of Pirates, he asked me to keep it to myself so as to avoid conflict (he's regrettably kind-hearted like that).  I find nothing "revolting" - your term - about Pirates.  It's a good story and I wouldn't keep following Rae from game to game (six, counting Pirates once) if he were a revolting GM.  Your behavior is another matter.

You were the first, in this thread, to complain about "the 'strong woman' type" - again, your term - and specifically call out my play of Connolly.  It might be different if your accusation were valid or accurate.  In light of the actual IC sequence of events, it is neither.  Your previous statements in OOC and PM indicated that Craig's gender bias was wholly IC.  By your OOC restatement of it, you've made it clear that the misogyny and pig-ignorance are yours, not Craig's.

And, yes, Lizzie and Ana were both deliberate bait to see if you would react again in the same way to more female PCs.  Congratulations: you failed.  I don't know what your problem is but I'm not going to waste any more time exploring it.

@Rae: I'm done here.
Mark Scully
 player, 41 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Thu 16 Jul 2015
at 21:55
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm out.
Konrad Bayer
 player, 1939 posts
 Hauptman, Pzg
 the fusilier
Thu 16 Jul 2015
at 22:10
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I was under the impression that everyone was going to work towards making everything happen. I haven't seen any resistance to any of the issues that were raised. I agreed with Dave's request for clarification - "I take it you are also OK with what’s proposed by the retcon, i.e. that it establishes the Polaris team as equals to Bayer, not subordinate, and they’ll have full involvement in the ic decision making processes?" Which I said I was.

I've been expecting the game to resume at any moment as I thought we were in agreement.

I was content with the elaboration, and didn't feel like it needed to be made into a big deal so I dropped it.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1745 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Thu 16 Jul 2015
at 23:34
Re: The Airing of Grievances
Anastasjia Kovac:
And, yes, Lizzie and Ana were both deliberate bait to see if you would react again in the same way to more female PCs.  Congratulations: you failed.  I don't know what your problem is but I'm not going to waste any more time exploring it.

Tegyrius,

Are you saying that you were deliberately trying to cause problems in Rae's game?  That's what that statement sounds like but I'm hoping that I'm wrong.  If you were that's massively disrespectful to both Rae and the other players.

Personally I'm really confused with what's gone on here.  We had a serious IC problem (on both "sides") with the introduction of the new characters but I thought that we had worked out a way to resolve it.

Anastasjia Kovac:
From where I sit, the real problem is that some long-established players have a knee-jerk paranoia toward any character whose personal story concept extends beyond shutting up and unquestioningly following Konrad's orders.

Can I also say that I really disagree with this statement from several days ago.  I am actually very interested in the story arcs that new characters introduce.  With Jan the vast majority of his background "hooks" have been used up already in this campaign so new characters being introduced presents me as a player with new opportunities for roleplaying or creating new hooks.  For example Jan had just gathered IC that Ana speaks Czech and that presents me with a roleplaying opportunity.  I missed the initial opportunity to respond due to RL mayhem but it was something that I was planning to come back to.

I therefore disagree strongly with your statement above and I'm really sorry that you and the others have decided to quit the game.

Andy.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1694 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Fri 17 Jul 2015
at 02:27
Re: The Airing of Grievances
I'm glad that the majority of the group has stayed on.  I do wish we could've 'repaired/fixed' this problem and played on.  I do admit that there were issues on the standing crew side and maybe we did go about it all wrong and how we role=played (or I guess a lack of role-playing on our part) it.  It should've went better.

I was stupid for going out of the way to get the new NPC medic a weapon right away when the new PC's were walking around with empty mags in their rifles.

THAT is one of the reasons I DO NOT ask to be anything more than how I play my PC because I do stupid things like this and tend to drop the ball when it comes to tasking.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3048 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Fri 17 Jul 2015
at 16:43
Re: The Airing of Grievances

Things are messier than ever. A lot of it is going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure if this game still has a future. I hope to come to some sort of a resolution/decision over the weekend.

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Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3049 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 19 Jul 2015
at 22:52
The Journey Ends

After a lot of thought, I've decided that I won't be running Twilight Cruise. This past week, 3/4 of the new players quit, Fuse then counter-quit in an effort to bring the new players back, and two players didn't comment at all, indicating (to me at least) that they don't care one way or the other whether this game lives or dies. That's a total of six out of 12 players.

Even if some of those players decided to come back, there's just too much bad mojo attached to this game now. It stopped being fun for me about three weeks ago, a feeling I am sure most of you share. I'm not sure how I would write 4-6 PCs out, nor am I interesting in NPC'ing that many additional characters.

I'm sorry for letting those of you who wanted to this game to continue down.

I want to issue another heartfelt thank you to all of you who tried to keep this campaign going in the midst of some pretty persistent OOC and IC strife. It means a lot to me that a few of you really fought to keep this game alive.

I had big plans for this campaign. Since nothing was going on in this game IC for the last couple of weeks, I spent some time putting my ideas for the upcoming chapter/s on paper and the project really took off. For those of you curious about what lay ahead, some possibilities are addressed here.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4881

So that's it. I'm sorry that it didn't work out. I game with almost all of you in other campaigns here on RPoL, so I'll definitely be seeing you around. I wish you all the best.

Peace,

Rae

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This message was last edited by the GM at 22:53, Sun 19 July 2015.

Craig Sutherland
 player, 734 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sun 19 Jul 2015
at 23:18
Re: The Journey Ends

To be honest with you Rae I have been quiet because every time I have tried to explain or apologise it has only made things worse. I believe you still have 9 players willing to play according to the sound off earlier in the OOC. Given that a lot of players have been here for many years I don't think there will be a problem with willing people to continue with the game.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1746 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 19 Jul 2015
at 23:19
Re: The Journey Ends
Sorry to hear this Rae.  Really sorry.  As i said to you I think that the IC problems could be resolved with a restart but I don't know how the OOC ones can be.

Hope you're not too down about this.

Andy
Anders Mattson
 player, 153 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Mon 20 Jul 2015
at 00:39
Re: The Journey Ends
I am sorry to see this campaign end. For the while I was a part of it, it was a very good ride for me and I believe I am not the only one. I thank you, Rae, about this campaign as well as the other players.

Now, do not take this the wrong way, but I might have another campaign for those willing (and of course there's the Rae's campaign that is on hold). My upcoming campaign uses the 2013 rules and is set in a post-nuclear exchange Iraq under a custom-built timeline. The story will begin with a USMC infantry platoon (reinforced), tasked with protecting the Haditha dam. Throw me a PM or rMail if interested.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1695 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Mon 20 Jul 2015
at 01:19
Re: The Journey Ends
Craig Sutherland:
To be honest with you Rae I have been quiet because every time I have tried to explain or apologise it has only made things worse. I believe you still have 9 players willing to play according to the sound off earlier in the OOC. Given that a lot of players have been here for many years I don't think there will be a problem with willing people to continue with the game.

I agree Rae however, if you're not going to be in to it, then I guess we have to live with it.

I think there's still enough interest in the game from the players who are still in if we can easily work them out of the scenario (i.e. maybe they finally got some orders to complete another mission, etc.).  Hate to see it go again but will respect your wishes Rae.

It was fun while it lasted...

John
Jelena Tamm
 player, 37 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Tue 21 Jul 2015
at 19:26
Re: The Journey Ends
Shame you're calling it a day. Thanks for running the games.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1696 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sat 25 Jul 2015
at 23:13
Re: The Journey Ends
I was hoping on a change of heart but once again, I understand.  I will be taking this off of my watched thread but please don't remove me from the game!

Best wishes to all,
John (Tucker)