The Mess (General OOC)   Posted by Cap'n Rae.Group: 0
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3007 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sat 13 Jun 2015
at 15:49
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

Today should be a GM narrative turn post day but only one PC has posted IC since the last turn (thanks, Mark) so I'll hold off a bit. If you're not sure how your PC fits into the current narrative thread, you can always post your input here in the OOC. Think of it as virtual table-talk. Either way, your involvement in this campaign is important.

Thanks.

-
Jelena Tamm
 player, 9 posts
Sat 13 Jun 2015
at 21:51
Re: The Mess (General OOC)

This message was deleted by the player at 21:51, Sat 13 June 2015.

Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3008 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 01:47
A Very Important Message

OK, we need to have an open, frank discussion regarding rank and command organization as the game moves forward. First of all, we need to approach this with the following principles foremost in mind:

1. This is supposed to be fun.

2. No one likes to be bossed around.

3. Teamwork makes the dream work.

4. Deliberately disruptive playing will not be tolerated by the GM.

5. As GM, I respect your right to roleplay your PC (i.e. stay true to your PC) as you see fit, as long as this does not violate 1, 2, & 3.

We're essentially merging two distinct groups of players here. Many of you have known each other for a long time. Shared history has instilled a certain comfort level and mutual respect. At the same time, some of the more unpleasant episodes that took place during that shared history have made a few of the old guard leery of newcomers.

So, let's start by looking back. Originally, the command structure of what became known as Konrad's Kommandos was fairly loose. Decision-making when not under fire was more or less democratic but in combat, Konrad became the de facto commanding officer. This made/makes a lot of sense, from both a RL and a gameplay POV. For the most part, it worked. Adam (an NPC), as the owner and captain of the tug, got final say when it came to matters relating to said. This authority/responsibility has, to a degree, been passed on to Griet (a secondary PC).

Over time, the command structure evolved. Many players did not actively involve themselves in decision-making and planning and, as a result, the burden of command fell progressively heavier on Fuse/Konrad's soldiers. In general, the other players seemed content to allow him to take on more command authority. At times, due to disruptive players/RP'ing, Konrad was forced to pull rank. At the time, this was necessary and appropriate. The remaining players who've been on board the longest have come to trust Konrad implicitly and respect his authority unquestioningly.

Overall, IMPO, Fuse/Konrad's done an admirable job as de facto leader. It's not an easy role to play. In fact, it's tough- trying to keep everyone involved, solicit feedback and input while still driving the game forward. He's done this well for nearly the entire run of this game. I'm not for one second suggesting or encouraging Konrad's leadership position be usurped, or Konrad demoted.

We now have a new batch of players that want to be more involved in decision-making. They're good players who give it their all and don't enjoy creating intra-party conflict. These are not Legbreakers or Laws here. I want to accommodate them without alienating the veterans. As long as we all proceed with the common good in mind, I don't see why we can't make this work. I don't think that we need a radical reworking of the tug's command structure. We just need to come to an understanding. Compromise is probably necessary- give and take.

Please work this out like reasonable, respectful adults. One of the two major reasons that I shut this game down (and kept it shut down for over a year) was because of intra-party, intra-player conflict that was not being resolved IC or OOC.

We just got started again. Let's all take a deep breath and make this work. Hopefully, these are just growing pains and will soon pass. I've got big plans for this game and I don't want to have to pull the plug again.

Rae

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 01:57, Sun 14 June 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1714 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 07:58
Re: A Very Important Message
Ok, following on from Rae's post let's resolve this OOC so that we can then sort it out IC.

As Rae said this is purely an IC point because we know that the players of the four new characters are all good players (keys138, Dave Ross, Spartan-117 and Tegyrius) who roleplay in a constructive manner.  We want you in the game because you will certainly contribute to and improve this game (not that it was bad but you know what I mean).

The IC problem is as follows:

Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane:
"Should you need our assistance, we will be happy to offer what help we can," she continues to Konrad.  "Unfortunately, we cannot place ourselves under your direct command.  I have no problem with your freelancers and make no judgement to your choices, but my companions and I are still active NATO forces.  I can promise you that we will do our best to not unnecessarily bring conflict to your vessel and will do our best to ensure its continued survival.  Should you feel that I violate this promise, we will leave at the first opportunity.  Our skills and intel should suffice in return for transit, I assure you, but if you need more direct financial assistance, we have a little of that, too." 

This statement IC is a problem because of the historical issues Rae has outlined above and a group who are essentially saying "we'll travel with you but not follow your orders" are actually likely to receive the response "no thanks" from a number of the existing characters.

Therefore because this is an RPG and because we need to combine the two groups together so that Rae is just running one game several of us are essentially required to not roleplay our characters correctly based on their in game experiences.  I know that you didn't mean to do this but you're effectively asking us to compromise our characters to integrate the new characters.

Please look at it from our characters perspective.  We live and travel on the Queen and that provides a defensible base from which to operate.  Four people who we've just met are asking us to transport them but aren't willing to follow our leaders orders.  They can add some skills and bodies (which are useful but we can survive without) but nothing material like food, medical supplies, specialist weapons or ammo.  For Jan I would certainly think that he would say "no thanks" to letting them come aboard and travel with us because they add little immediately beyond some intel about what is downriver and represent a greater security risk than someone who says "yes, I will follow orders".  They will be more like passengers travelling with us rather than fellow crew members and that not something that makes sense to me.

My two suggestions on a solution are as follows:

 - The new arrivals amend their position to "we will follow your orders as long as it does not compromise our NATO loyalties".  This could be suggested IC by Konrad as a solution.

 - The new arrivals have something we want to "pay" for passage.  This would allow them to retain their unit loyalties while giving us a reason to transport them.  It needs to be something that we need however.  The intel about what's downriver might be enough but something physical would help.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?  I can't speak for others but I suspect that they will agree.  We just need to get over this hump in the road so that merging in the new group with the existing characters makes sense.  We've done that successfully in Fuse's game and we just need to work it out here.

Sorry to be a pedantic pain in the arse.

Andy.
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1209 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 08:20
Re: A Very Important Message
I have been reluctant to post about this because I am in a quandary.
First: As a player:

I am more than happy to see the new players who are all excellent. They are going to make a really bug difference to the game and I'm looking forward to seeing how the game develops with their fantastic input.
I'm JJ in Fuse's game and I can say that the integration there has been smooth, especially a some of the heavy lifting of planning has been taken from my shoulders there. I am sure the same thing will happen here.
No-one wants the new players to just roll over and break character.
I support them whole-heartedly and we will make this work even if we have to break character.

However: As a character, both Mariusz and Griet, there's a problem.
Not with the new players but with history. I'll outline it a little for new players so you can see where I'm coming from:

The Wistula Queen and NATO Special Forces:
1) John Yazzie: Marine Scout Sniper who disappeared taking vital supplies when he needed to continue "his mission".
2) Clarence Milk: DIA/CIA operative who had project Reset. The Russians pursuing him led to us being constantly attacked, losing crew and having Adam loose an eye. In addition we nearly lost the Queen over it and did lose the barge and some heavy weapons.
3) Guy whose name I've forgotten: Dropped a gas grenade to throw off pursuit which left Griet and several other characters affected. If the GM hadn't fudged the driver's rolls (rules wise he couldn't have passed), we'd have all died.
4) Jason Kasparov: Turned on us and tried to blow us up, Mariusz' mentor died saving the crew.

With these incidents in mind, it is difficult for the characters to just accept a bunch of NATO troops on board who are specifically still pursuing their own agenda.

What I am proposing is this: Konrad can radio Griet who makes the final call. She won't be happy about the situation but will want the INTEL and state that if the NATO crew don't want to join, they will not be treated as crew, they'll camp on deck and eat their own rations and as soon as the INTEL is handed over Griet will decide how far that information gets them.

It will be awkward and people are free to post thought misgivings and bitching as we will all know it's about the characters not the players. As soon as we have a couple of fights together under our belt everything will be fine.

How does this sound:
Konrad is leery about giving in but contacts Griet
Griet will be a bitch about it and treat the new guys with suspicion bordering on rudeness (especially as there's a strong female leader: it'll be like MEAN GIRLS if we're not careful!) but needs the INTEL and will treat them as "passengers"
Once we're underway, characters can find individual ways to make inter-party bonds until we forge a true bond under fire.
That way, Konrad doesn't look a pussy for giving in, Griet won't look insane for making the same mistakes of trusting NATO troops following their own agenda as her father did and the new players can stay true to their character concepts as well.
How does that sound?

Looks like Jan's said pretty much the same thing.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1716 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 08:35
Re: A Very Important Message
A minor point to add.

I think that we would require the passengers to have unloaded weapons while on the Queen.  They won't be disarmed and can keep ammo on them but won't have mags loaded.  Does that make sense?
Jelena Tamm
 player, 10 posts
 Red Army Deserter
 Silent Hunter
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 09:41
Re: A Very Important Message
Jan Cerny:
A minor point to add.

I think that we would require the passengers to have unloaded weapons while on the Queen.  They won't be disarmed and can keep ammo on them but won't have mags loaded.  Does that make sense?


That makes sense to me.
Mark Scully
 player, 8 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 10:32
Re: A Very Important Message
I'm about to go out so can't respond to this at the moment, but from my point of view I think there are options in Mark and Andy's posts that may be workable.

I'll reply in detail later.
Jan Cerny
 player, 1717 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 11:13
Re: A Very Important Message
Another option could be to create a connection between two characters, one in each group, so that someone could vouch for the new characters.

It's a pity that Stonner is dead as I think that he was another Navy Seal.

Are there any of the new characters who could have met some FFL troops and therefore know Jan?  Could that be an option?

Or does this not work as an option?
Anastasjia Kovac
 player, 3 posts
 U.S. State Department
 Tegyrius
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 11:29
Re: A Very Important Message
Ana used to live in Germany (location unspecified) and has worked at the Prague, Moscow, and Warsaw embassies during her time with the State Department.  There's also some undefined foreign service time in her State history.
Mark Scully
 player, 9 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 13:29
Re: A Very Important Message
OK...

Firstly, Mark and Andy, your points are well made. Thank you.

Andy, one of your first points was to ask me to look at things from your character's perspective, so let me start by giving my character's perspective in return. And so we are clear, this is the IC thoughts / mind set of Mark Scully not Dave Ross (I am using Mark Scully's first name to make clear I am referring to him and not Mark101 btw - giving my PC the same given name as a player was a coincidence)

Mark Scully is still a serving member of the armed forces of the United States of America. He has an established chain of command which he follows. In his view  your allegiances are questionable. You are a self proclaimed Free Company, which makes you at best mercenaries, at worst deserters. Konrad's opening exchange included asking if we have any gold. That reinforced much of what Mark Scully was thinking in terms of your mercenary nature. Either way, through his lens you have chosen to turn your back on much of what Mark holds dear. He is still actively fighting the War and sees that as doing his duty to his country. And as you are by your own admission a Free Company operating to your own agenda his view is that whilst Konrad may be your commander he no longer has any NATO rank.

So from Mark Scully's point of view it does not matter what is or is not on the table. Were it purely down to him he would already have said "no thanks" and moved on by now. Andy, you state that from Jan's point of view the newcomers have little to offer to make a deal attractive. From Mark Scully's point of view he's looking at it through an entirely different lens.  The only thing the Vistula Queen has to offer him is a way to move north and he does not feel that the Vistula Queen is his only option to do that. The Kommandos don't like the deal on the table? Ok, move on. No harm, no foul. The deal doesn't need to be attractive.

I've tried to express that point of view in IC postings but I appreciate his contributions so far have all been inner monologue rather than dialogue. Again, this is a reflection on the fact that Lizzie Kane is his leader. She speaks for the group in this matter.

However, again as I hope has been made clear by my IC postings, Mark Scully is extremely loyal to Lizzie Kane. Mark Scully is not the decision maker here. She is (and that is not an attempt by me, Dave, to pass ownership of this to Keys138 - that is a summary of my character's point of view and how I am trying to play him).

So, that's Mark Scully.

Now, here's what I think.

Firstly,

This

quote:
"Should you need our assistance, we will be happy to offer what help we can," she continues to Konrad.  "Unfortunately, we cannot place ourselves under your direct command.  I have no problem with your freelancers and make no judgement to your choices, but my companions and I are still active NATO forces.  I can promise you that we will do our best to not unnecessarily bring conflict to your vessel and will do our best to ensure its continued survival.  Should you feel that I violate this promise, we will leave at the first opportunity.  Our skills and intel should suffice in return for transit, I assure you, but if you need more direct financial assistance, we have a little of that, too."

...has possibly been taken in a more black and white way than was intended.

The intent was to establish Lizzie as leader of the USN group and Konrad as leader of the Kommandos. The two would work together as co leaders (presumably with Griet as well). If Konrad wanted to issue orders to the USN group he would go through Lizzie. If she agreed the orders would go down the chain and be obeyed. Only if she disagreed with the orders would there be a veto. Andy, this is, I feel, essentially a variation of sorts of your first suggestion below.

Yes, Lizzie retains a right of veto, however as has been stated several times in the last couple of messages this is an role playing game that we all wish to play together. That veto is, in effect a Deus ex machina - to paraphrase wikipedia a plot device to resolve a seemingly unsolvable problem . It allows us to board the boat on terms that everyone feels is keeping it real from their PC's POV and will not (in my opinion) have an adverse impact on the game. Yes, it may lead to occasions where characters may disagree whilst behind the scenes the players are in complete harmony.

So clearly that remains my preferred option.

However...if we park that to the side for the moment and look at the options put forward

This...

quote:
  - The new arrivals amend their position to "we will follow your orders as long as it does not compromise our NATO loyalties".  This could be suggested IC by Konrad as a solution.

As stated, I think this is a variation of what I've just outlined above (only what's mentioned above doesn't reference following Konrad's orders)

This...

quote:
Another option could be to create a connection between two characters, one in each group, so that someone could vouch for the new characters.

It's a pity that Stonner is dead as I think that he was another Navy Seal.

Are there any of the new characters who could have met some FFL troops and therefore know Jan?  Could that be an option?

Or does this not work as an option?

Is probably workable but it would not be my preferred option. For one I think it's a bit clichéd and for two I don't think it resolves the chain of command question. If we did go down that road Scully has been a Navy SEAL for a number of years so it's not impossible he may have crossed paths with the French Foreign Legion at some point in time.

This...

quote:
- The new arrivals have something we want to "pay" for passage.  This would allow them to retain their unit loyalties while giving us a reason to transport them.  It needs to be something that we need however.  The intel about what's downriver might be enough but something physical would help.

...and this
quote:
What I am proposing is this: Konrad can radio Griet who makes the final call. She won't be happy about the situation but will want the INTEL and state that if the NATO crew don't want to join, they will not be treated as crew, they'll camp on deck and eat their own rations and as soon as the INTEL is handed over Griet will decide how far that information gets them.

It will be awkward and people are free to post thought misgivings and bitching as we will all know it's about the characters not the players. As soon as we have a couple of fights together under our belt everything will be fine.

How does this sound:
Konrad is leery about giving in but contacts Griet
Griet will be a bitch about it and treat the new guys with suspicion bordering on rudeness (especially as there's a strong female leader: it'll be like MEAN GIRLS if we're not careful!) but needs the INTEL and will treat them as "passengers"
Once we're underway, characters can find individual ways to make inter-party bonds until we forge a true bond under fire.
That way, Konrad doesn't look a pussy for giving in, Griet won't look insane for making the same mistakes of trusting NATO troops following their own agenda as her father did and the new players can stay true to their character concepts as well.
How does that sound?

I think are essentially variations of the same suggestion, namely that the USN party have something that the Queen party feel is of value, and is probably workable. We'd need to hash out the precise  details, but personally, I would find this preferable to the French Foreign Legion option.

We had actually laid a framework for exactly this approach in several of our prior posts. It is not my place to say what may be on offer, but Rae is aware and it was in place long before this message was posted. For example, if you check Msg 83 posted on Tuesday you'll see Scully make reference to a "friend upriver". I realise you can't use that as it's meta knowledge, but to be honest, so far there hss been no significant exchange of dialogue between both parties to establish what else we may be able to bring to the table. Konrad asked in Msg 99 but Lizzie never got a chance to reply before the turn post went up. Lizzie then referenced being able to offer direct financial assistance in Msg 106 but no one has responded to that yet (to be fair, it was only posted  yesterday). So as far as I can tell, we're still negotiating.

And frankly, you don't expect us to give your our best deal at first time of asking do you? :-)

Finally, Mark, your point is well made about Yazzie, Milk, etc. From an IC perspective I totally get that. Rae's point about the players behind certain characters is also well made from an OOC point of view. I don't pretend to have read every single back post in this game, but I've read a lot, both here and in Fusilier's game. None of us are here trying to create an Orso or a Thor or a Tom Jones or a whatever the hell the Finnish sniper's name was.

We're not going to over the wall with your supplies. Scully isn't going to say to Anders "Finns? Yeah, killed them." If we're in a truck and it comes under fire and Konrad shouts "everybody out and return fire" we're not going to go "Hey, Liz, Konrad says we should get out and shoot back. Is that OK with you?" Nor are we going to sit in ooc bitching that the correct SOP would be to drive through.

We're going to get out of that bloody truck and help you kill the bad guys.

Does that sound fair?
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 7 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 13:57
Re: A Very Important Message

I like the ideas that have been put forward.  I also like that the lines between our OOC discussion and character IC discussion are being drawn with the intent that everybody has a good time but we still maintain some semblance of reality.  There are two sides to this "negotiation" and it's been easy for me to forget from time to time that I have to balance that equation.  From the OOC perspective, we all know that the goal is to create a cohesive force that can go forward and be awesome.  And I think we are well on our way to being able to do that.

Lizzie's referenced post went round and round about six times before it came out.  That was the tame version.  It isn't meant to be a challenge so much as a statement of equals in a negotiation process and an admission of what she can and can't do. Instead of making promises she may not be able to keep, she is being candid of the limits she is under.

From the IC perspective, I think the passenger deal works well because that is essentially what Lizzie and her crew are asking for.  It is also reasonable to suggest that if/when combat occurs, that the USN force take part in an organized manner and not be dicks about it.  That isn't anyone't intent.  A reasonable compromise could be that should combat occur, Lizzie would be on par with Konrad's "Non-Coms" and be responsible for directing the actions of her party, under Konrad's overall direction of the battle.  Subject to the "NATO exclusion" of course.  "Mean Girls" with Griet is fine and offers some nice RP opportunities.

Lizzie would want a few concessions:

Unloaded long arms, fine.  Side arms remain loaded.  We don't want to be victims either.

We will be happy to sleep on the deck and eat our own food, but would like a designated combat station(s) with cover available for the inevitable gunfire exchange that will happen.


Dave is on to something with the veto deus ex machina as well.  It gives everybody an out and doesn't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
Griet Niewiadomska
 player, 846 posts
 CPO, Polish Navy
 mark101
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 14:21
Re: A Very Important Message
Griet isn't involved in negotiations yet but her ideas would be this:

1) The new guys act as passengers for now, how far they get depends on how good the INTEL is. e group will be responsible for their own food and shelter on deck (this will change quickly if weather is an issue and the Americans obviously need more shelter than they can provide and it's one of the things I'm planning to be the first step to integration). All American weapons will be loaded, travelling on the river is dangerous and Griet wants all the guns she can get ready to shoot. The Americans will stay in a designated area unless escorted by a Commando (again, something that will change after the first fire-fight).

2) As for command and veto, that's not an option. What Griet will say is that Lizzie will have veto in the planning and decision to undertake any offensive actions up to and including not taking part in offensive action. One actions have been agreed upon and planned, Konrad will have operational control and orders will be expected to be followed. Combat is not a democracy.
In defensive actions: if we're attacked, the same applies, the Americans will be expected to defend the Queen without hesitation (this one is a no brainer, the Americans will be being shot at as well).

3) That said, any plans we make will be mutually planned OC if not IC and orders need to be interpreted to be followed and that will be Lizzie's job. No-one is going to call someone out on interpreting orders creatively and Konrad isn't going to be issuing any suicidal orders.

I fully understand Mark Scully's point of view but the problem is that the two POVs are rather diametrically opposed at the moment. Griet has seen several groups of Americans who are more than happy to treat the crew of the Queen as sacrificial pawns and spill every drop of their blood to accomplish a mission for NATO. Given the position we're in now, the narrative urges both groups just to part.
That means we have to find narrative common ground and I'm hoping that what I'm suggesting makes sense form a negotiation point of view.
We play up the tension between common needs and mutual distrust and avoid dick masuring contests (which would be natural in the IC situation) by giving the newcomers the option to decline offensive actions that would be counter to their aims but accept that once action is committed to that orders are followed, not to the letter but to the spirit with a wide degree of independence and interpretation given to all sub-commanders.
If we are attacked, everyone sticks together too.
I'm sure that given the players involved that we can reach an agreement.
Please note, that whilst Griet isn't much for negotiation, I am so if anyone wants to refine the ideas let's get it done here so we can present verisimilitude IC.
Mark Scully
 player, 10 posts
 E7, USN SEALs
 Dave Ross
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 14:53
Re: A Very Important Message
quote:
1) The new guys act as passengers for now, how far they get depends on how good the INTEL is. e group will be responsible for their own food and shelter on deck (this will change quickly if weather is an issue and the Americans obviously need more shelter than they can provide and it's one of the things I'm planning to be the first step to integration). All American weapons will be loaded, travelling on the river is dangerous and Griet wants all the guns she can get ready to shoot. The Americans will stay in a designated area unless escorted by a Commando (again, something that will change after the first fire-fight).

Don't see a problem here. I would suggest that the USN party will post a guard on their "camp" 24/7. We don't know you. It needn't be someone standing in full battle gear, but someone will keep watch.

quote:
2) As for command and veto, that's not an option. What Griet will say is that Lizzie will have veto in the planning and decision to undertake any offensive actions up to and including not taking part in offensive action. One actions have been agreed upon and planned, Konrad will have operational control and orders will be expected to be followed. Combat is not a democracy.
In defensive actions: if we're attacked, the same applies, the Americans will be expected to defend the Queen without hesitation (this one is a no brainer, the Americans will be being shot at as well).


I think I partly covered that in my comment about being in a truck coming under fire. Just to be clear in case anyone thought that was just a random choice on my part, it wasn't. I was specifically referring to the incident you had previously which (iirc) led to the character of Thor being banished. That sort of disruptive action is not what we're about.
I agree that Lizzie having veto as to whether the USN team actually take part in an operation is feasible and realistic and again I would suggest this is not dissimilar to what Andy put forward.

quote:
3) That said, any plans we make will be mutually planned OC if not IC

Agreed

quote:
I fully understand Mark Scully's point of view but the problem is that the two POVs are rather diametrically opposed at the moment. Griet has seen several groups of Americans who are more than happy to treat the crew of the Queen as sacrificial pawns and spill every drop of their blood to accomplish a mission for NATO. Given the position we're in now, the narrative urges both groups just to part.

Agreed, and as I said, if Mark Scully was making the call IC we would have already parted (actually, once it was clear that Titan was unrecoverable he wouldn't even have engaged with you - sorry Eric!) but I would reiterate again that Mark Scully isn't making the decision. Lizzie Kane is and if she says we're getting on the boat he gets on the boat. What I am trying to do with Scully is give him depth, as I would with any character I've created.

I have no issue with Mark Scully and Griet coming into contact / conflict and would hope that in time both would be able to find some form of common ground.  Maybe Mark Scully will realise that things aren't as black and white as he sees them when it comes to the mercs and there are shades of grey, maybe Griet will realise that the Marine that screwed them over was the exception rather than the rule. Whatever happens though, it all translates to Dave and Mark having hour upon hour of enjoyable role play time (we may want to discuss boundaries first. In my experience when there is IC tension between characters it's good to have clear OOC communication between players but we can probably make that a take away point rather than discuss on board)

This message was last edited by the player at 14:54, Sun 14 June 2015.

Thijs van Lincklaen
 player, 169 posts
 Sergeant-Majoor, DMC
 DaleN
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 15:47
Re: A Very Important Message
Mariusz Tokarski:
4) Jason Kasparov: Turned on us and tried to blow us up, Mariusz' mentor died saving the crew.

As Jason's (admittedly replacement) player, I take exception to that remark.  I never turned on the party or tried to blow it up.  Perhaps this happened before I took over the character, but nothing in the play since that time suggested that he had done so in the past.  After I had to drop out due to a new job, Jason quietly died of his wounds offscreen, with no opportunity to turn on the group.  Or maybe Mark is thinking about someone else?
Mariusz Tokarski
 player, 1211 posts
 Teenaged Partisan
 mark 101
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 16:40
Re: A Very Important Message
Must have been someone else then. Someone definitely pulled a grenade on us and someone had to drop on it.
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1646 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 19:37
Re: A Very Important Message
Sorry, been very busy with work the past few days.  I'll make it quick (as usual)...

I think that the new guys and their training and situation is pretty fair.  If they believe that they're still operating on a mission currently then, they have that frame of mind that they have their orders and new ones must come from someone higher than Konrad.  I think their assessment of us as being mercenaries or deserters is valid (in their opinion at least) since they believe that there is still some kind of command structure left in NATO (in our opinion).

It would seem that both sides here have plenty of history backing their beliefs.  Now, it's just a matter of how we integrate both units into one.  That's why we roleplay right?
Robert 'Tuck' Tucker
 player, 1647 posts
 P Sgt., 10th MD
 Corkman
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 19:42
Re: A Very Important Message
Try ti make an IC post tonight
Craig Sutherland
 player, 712 posts
 Lt., 42 Cdo, RMC
 Cymon
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 19:53
Re: A Very Important Message
In reply to Mariusz Tokarski (msg # 78):

There was Jesters character as we were infiltrating into Warsaw who out of spite buggered the M240 before he was shot.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3010 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Sun 14 Jun 2015
at 22:41
Re: A Very Important Message

DaleN is completely innocent. The fragger was Jay 'Chopper' Hicks (played by Glenn D.). He- Glenn- got fed up with how Leg, Law, and Tony were playing and decided to quit. Fr. Switek was played by Snakeyes. Dude could RP but he was notoriously unreliable. By that time, Snake had been MIA for weeks. I decided to kill two abandoned PCs with one grenade. I thought that Chopper's mysterious betrayal would be a lot more interesting than having him take an enemy bullet.

The really disruptive players are all long gone. That's why I so firmly believe that we can make this work, both IC and OOC. I was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too patient with the aforementioned troublemakers. I won't make that mistake again.

-
helbent4
 Lurker, 15 posts
 Lurking
 In Lurksville
Mon 15 Jun 2015
at 10:19
Re: A Very Important Message
Hello all!

I think I have a solution to this dilemma that will satisfy everyone.

Through some kind of messenger (perhaps the new PCs?) Bayer is given a packet addressed to him. Inside are legal orders from the Bundeswehr 3rd Army instructing him to make all due haste to the 6 Panzergrenadier Division, Panzergrenadierbrigaden 17 cantonment in northern Poland. There he is to assume command of Panzergrenadierbataillon 172. Further, he is hereby promoted to Oberstleutnant (NATO rank OR-4) effective immediately.

BOOM! Done.

This gives Bayer something to do and a place to go, if he hasn't figured this out already. If the new PCs are loyal to the NATO chain of command, it's a cut-and-dried situation. Somewhat more complicated is if Griet needs some kind of official juice, she can be made a commissioned officer in the Free Polish Navy. From what I recall in Rae's game the Free Poles have negotiated a mutual-support agreement with the US forces operating in their territory in order to provide a nucleus of a post-communist nation state. I think the Free Poles might even be part of NATO now? I can't imagine any kind of SOFA along those lines would not allow for rank reciprocity like any similar real-world arrangement.

This solution is inspired by the description of "Primary Groups" in the "RDF Sourcebook". The pre-war status quo of NATO TO&Es and chains of command is history. Small units (that is, PC groups) function on an informal and ad hoc basis. If rank is an issue, PCs can easily be given promotions. And I think it's past fuckin' time Bayer and Griet got promoted! The other PCs in the Primary group can therefore be considered civilian contractors or otherwise attached to Bayer or Griet, or treated as boat crew. Promotions can also be made on a "brevet" or temporary basis. I am sure this won't be the case here but in theory, if someone isn't playing ball they can be demoted on some pretext or another to maintain command cohesion.

In other words the chain of command and rank structure (which is, after all, typically randomly rolled) is not fixed in stone, either in game or in real life.

Tony

PS: I have many, many flaws as a GM (and as a person) but at least in my own Twilight 2000 game this situation is not an issue because one of my ground rules for playing is that new PCs can't be officers or outrank established PCs, and there it is. I also make sure to semi-regularly promote PCs ether on a brevet or permanent basis.
Cap'n Rae
 GM, 3013 posts
 Tour Director
 Narrator
Mon 15 Jun 2015
at 16:33
Kudos

It looks like y'all have worked things out. Thank you, most sincerely.

The GM turn post is up. It's in two parts, and your upcoming IC posts for this turn can follow suit, if you so desire. Part one is about a three-hour block of smooth steaming- you may want to post what your PC was up to during that time (there's always stuff to be done on board the tug, as well as personal business). Part two is your first view of Grudziaz. You'll need to give me some idea of how you're going to approach it (you might want to take another look at the intel Norbert provided before you left Swiecie). If you want to split a single post, just put "hr" (minus the quotes) between <>. Or, if you'd prefer to write separate posts, that's fine too. As always, hit me up if you have any questions.

EDIT: Sir Petr says "bye".

Swiecie drifts by slowly to port; near its east end, the single red brick tower of Swiecie Castle stands like a solitary watchman. Atop its battlements, a lone, forlorn figure stands between two rectangular crenelations, looking out over the brown ribbon of the Vistula. He raises his hand in salute as the tug steams slowly past.

Onward and upward!

-

This message was last edited by the GM at 23:43, Mon 15 June 2015.

Jan Cerny
 player, 1718 posts
 Sergent Chef, FFL
 Mahatatain
Tue 16 Jun 2015
at 21:11
Re: Kudos
Sorry I haven't posted.  I've have a bit of a bug but am trying to catch up and hope to post IC in the next 24hrs.  Sorry for the delay.

Andy.
Anders Mattson
 player, 132 posts
 Kapteeniluutnantti
 mediiic
Tue 16 Jun 2015
at 21:25
Re: Kudos
I'll scratch up a post in the next 24 hours or so. And will be on night shifts for the next month or so, so I'll be available much more.
Elizabeth 'Lizzie' Kane
 player, 9 posts
 Lt. Cmdr., USN
 keys138
Wed 17 Jun 2015
at 02:34
Re: Kudos
sorry for the delay, having some health issues this week.

I'll get a post up tomorrow morning