Team,

There's been interest expressed by players in getting this game going again, and of course I always intended to continue.

1) How many people are interested in continuing and playing?
2) You can continue with your old characters or start a new one.
3) I am seriously considering switching the rules to T2013. Any interest?

Tony

Definately happy to continue playing.

I'll play 2013 rules but be warned, I've never seen a game last past the first firefight because of the nature of the system.

Does it suck or it is too deadly? I'm sure it'll be okay if you're cautious, which is usually the case. After all, if it's deadly to you it's deadly to them.

I've not made a final decision yet, just thinking about it. T2K has the advantage that it's familiar to the players, everything is already set up and there's copious reference material available. Heck, I've yet to make a character for T2013 so I can't say how easy or difficult it is!

Tony
This message was last updated by the GM at 18:25, Mon 16 Apr 2012.

No, the system is realistic but the ticks are a nightmare to play in a PBeM situation.

You have to wait for everyone with lots of ticks to post first and then go so the posting is very time sensitive. With high initiative characters in the game a single exchange can take six to eight weeks to play out and that's less than 30-seconds of game time. After waiting two months to see what's going on in the first exchange of fire lots of people lose interest, especially as you have to go at the pace of the slowest poster.

The only way I can see it working is to use the Character Generation System which is great but change the combat to something more abstract.

In reply to Andrew Montgomery McRae (msg #4):

Oh, bugger, I see what you mean. Games designed for table play do not always play out best in PbeMs!

I'm in contact with Clayton, I'll see what he suggests. I like character generation, which allows for detailed team-building and a nice level of detail.

So far, Javier's in, as is another friend of mine new to the game (Hawk).

Tony

That sounds good. Keep me in the loop, I'd love to play.

Reporting for duty!

Still working on Character in 2013.

The rules need an index, and to be sorted out better.  Character generation info in the place where you're doing character generation, etc.

--Hawke

In reply to William Hawke (msg #8):

Hawk,

Were there future editions of T2013 I'm sure it would have changed for the better.

Any questions, please ask!

Everyone: we're going to be switching to the 2013 rules. Anyone need these?

Hawk has made his character, I know Marc/Andy has used the system before, someone who's worked quite a bit on T2013 (Max) should be joining us so you can pepper him with questions. (This, of course, is not the place to debate T2K vs. T2013.)

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:06, Wed 18 Apr 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #9):

I have most of my character built, but working on finding the rads exposure and equipment list.

--Hawke

I can manage the character gen but I'm unlikely to be able to get the paperwork done until a week Sunday. I'm super busy at work and can do lots of micro posting in breaks but can't afford the couple of hours to sit down and crunch the numbers.

In reply to Andrew Montgomery McRae (msg #11):

I still have to get together with Javier and re-do Taras so I don't think that's an issue.

Tony

Hey guys Max here I'll be playing a Alaska NG 1st Lt. (mustang) infantry dude who moonlights as a M/C shop owner before the war.

I also contributed stuff to the V3 rules (T2013).

Tony - FYI how do you want to handle points for Last Term?  Per book?

In reply to Matthew Stone (msg #13):

New Characters start as "Veterans" (60 pts.), Continuing PCs will get extra experience (however that's defined in T2013).

I think the Last Year will be as per the book. Technically, the war's been going on for around 3 years, give or take. What are the other options, if any?

Tony

I think per the book is fine.  In my RPOL game I gave them x4 points which wasnt needed.

Max,

Book values should do. Everyone is a Veteran so they should have more to play with than stock PCs.

Where is Experience in the core book?

Mind if I link to your files so that players can access the supplemental rules and errata?

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:35, Thu 19 Apr 2012.

Tony if I knew how you could link them no problems.  The errata I will email with my PC.

Experience as in how its gained ot experience as far as points for Abilities?

Max

In reply to Matthew Stone (msg #17):

Max,

Don't worry about the files. I'll link to the rules through Google Docs.

https://docs.google.com/open?i...I0pi9Sjg4NE1md01hSk0

I was thinking of giving continuing PCs some XP or equivalent to represent the year or two of play they've had. I was wondering where, in the core book, XP and character development was outlined.

Tony

For simplicitys sake give them 10 points... which is ALOT (about 2 years experience in PC development).  Will upload "stuff" :-)

So, 10 points it is for Andy, Taras and Kel. I'm terrible with rules. Which can make it hard being a GM!

The following is a link from Clayton on some files he has, including the Errata and some appended material:

http://www.de-fenestra.com/personal/2013/

Tony

10 points seems perfect.

I'm paraphrasing the experience rules here so some may be wrong:

There is no XP per se, rather learning experiences. You get a check against each skill you use that you pass check in by a certain level. You can have up to three checks at a time. Then in down time you make a learning roll: your age -100 as a % chance. If you roll under the score you get 1 point to put into the skill.

I can't recall the pass number but I think it's the equivalent of succeeding in a -5 or harder check.

Honestly it a part of the rules none of us were really happy with and if there had been a revision (which would of been free) we would have definitely changed it.

Since we are playing in 2001 I have to be careful what equipment I choose!!  I almost added some shit that wasnt around in 2000!

Character sheet updated.

--Hawke

In reply to Andrew Montgomery McRae (msg #21):

That's not too different from CoC or Harn, where "checks" allow you to roll for incremental experience gain. I can see that being a problem when you only get, say, 5 "XP" a year of play time!

Tony

Hey boys,

Grizz is pretty much ready.  Only thing I need is to roll up my contacts.  He has his main load out just need to work the details on his other equipment.

Hello Tony,

we were discussing this piece of equipment (2A19 or T-12)and how it remains  relevant in the current TO&E of the current Russian Army as well as numerous ex PacWar armies:




We were discussing in what type of unit it could be found. During the times of the Soviet Union and therefore applying to our T2K scheme of things the T-12/MT-12 "Rapira" was part of the antitank battalion organic to a MRD (Motor Rifle Division) like the 62nd which was Taras own. The antitank battalion will have 2 AT gun batteries with 6 guns each.

Also, in the late '80s, Motor Rifle Regiments (MRR) began to add T-12s to increment the organic antitank missile battery usually equipped with AT-5 "Spandrel" mounted on BRDM-2 (3 firing platoons with 3 vehicles each).




The prime mover for the T-12 would be usually a MT-LB for mountain scenarios




Or an utility truck in less demanding environments:


This message was last edited by the GM at 09:48, Thu 26 Apr 2012.

Javier,

So the Rapira was pretty common weapon!

Wonder why AT guns were still a common element of AT battalions...

I guess you can use them for direct or indirect fire support on fixed targets, suitable to use on light armour and cheaper than a missile. Cheaper to maintain and fire?

Tony

It was common practice in the Red Army to make good use of each and every piece of equipment more so if it was artillery! While units located in the Western theater were usually equipped with the most modern material the legacy was usually passed down to inferior category units and eventually used to expand the size of batteries as in the case of the Rapira. Massing artillery after all was one of the pillars of the Soviet offensive.

Antitank battalions, being organic to Motor Rifle Divisions, were usually employed in the role of tactical reserve leaving the main work of fighting tank to other tanks. Adding the extra firepower to specific antitank battalions also gave more flexibility in their use as it could be in defensive settings. The lesser unit in the Soviet Unit that maintained all the Combat Services, the Motor Rifle Regiment, would also take advantage of an extra anti armor capability in conducting independent operations.

Also in this way, one of the most demanding forms of warfare, that of the urban environment, could benefit with the presence of this guns that, as you well pointed out are cheaper to operate and maintain than ATGMs against less protected targets and therefore the picture in Chechnya...
This message was last edited by the player at 06:46, Thu 26 Apr 2012.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #28):

Sorry, the BRDM picture was a little too big, I resized it, and now it's smaller than I wanted!

As for the game, I am looking forward to getting started. The continuing characters are all in and around the government enclave and provisional Vancouver City Hall at UBC. Wayne Lo is in the Navy, it makes sense for him to be in that area as well, recently transferred from Vancouver Island to the DRI (Department of Reconnaissance and Investigation) TF URIEL's maritime element, perhaps as commander.

Lt. Matt Stone is associated with the Survivalists but has been absent for a while. He could show up in New Westminster, a formerly independent community and now government ally. It's also the gateway to the vast "unpacified" urban and suburban areas to the south and east. If he's been in those areas, or across the border in the USA, then he could show up there. Likewise, William Hawkins could have been part of the New West militia or working at Royal Columbia hospital there and decided to join the DRI unit (which usually numbers around 50 on paper).

We will pick up days or weeks at most from where we left off. The Fraser river has maybe not stopped rising, people are still being displaced all along it. The vast majority of your subordinate DRI personnel are assigned to assist local militia from UBC and New West in evacuating and managing refugees from the flood waters.

Gunny Conklin is on a critical independent assignment and is elsewhere. Rachel has been reassigned at her request to train and lead the RCMP Auxiliary Emergency Response Team, which not coincidentally allows her to continue her relationship with her girlfriend Kelsey without conflict.

The continuing PCs are the "command cadre". While your unit is being reorganised, most support personnel and assets have been pulled away to support other units in the field. In this brief down time, Andy, Kelsey and Wayne (a new arrival) are sent to New West to pick up some key personnel, including a new team leader (Matt) and a medic (William). Your secondary duties include tracing a break in the newly-strung telephone line down Kingsway connecting New West to Vancouver/UBC.

For vehicles, several soft-skins are available: UAZ-467, Jeep YJ, Chevy Suburban. Even Tyler's vintage '69 Cougar (hardly subtle). Only the Kodiak (LAV-III "LAVin' Spoonful") is available; the BTR and BMP have been reassigned for local militia duty. All your watercraft are in constant use on the river for rescue ops. Koldan is still trying to get the salvaged light trainer prop aircraft ("Biafra Baby") into service but has found his technical skills much in demand.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 10:45, Thu 26 Apr 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #29):

Link for rules used, I will start adapting soooooon

Lee

Groovy!

The PCs are Veterans under T2013, with 56 points to spend for Attributes (not random but point-based).

You get 10x Points for improving skills. That is, it's not a direct spend but you need to roll for improving your skills (like CoC/Harnmaster). This represents the experience you've gained through play.

Tony

Groovy!

The PCs are Veterans under T2013, with 60 points to spend for Attributes (not random but point-based).

You get 10x Points for improving skills. That is, it's not a direct spend but you need to roll for improving your skills (like CoC/Harnmaster). This represents the experience you've gained through play.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:55, Thu 26 Apr 2012.

Team,

My apologies, there is an error... 60 points for Veteran PCs.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #33):

so I get to roll to improve each skill 10 times?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #34):

You get ten rolls. In theory these should be skills you used during play. In this case, it would be skills Kelsey has improved since arriving in Vancouver.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #35):

Ok... that didn't help.  Let me try this again!

10 rolls per skill used, or total?

Also, instead of converting we are generating from scratch?
This message was last edited by the player at 01:06, Sat 28 Apr 2012.

Lee,

Uh... you honestly thought you got a hundred (100) rolls? Ten skills get ten rolls each? Wow. Ah.... not remotely.

Total.

Scratch.

Questions?

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #37):

Many many questions... I am trying to wrap my head into this 400 page badly laid out 2013 manual.  Not to sound like I am griping... well, ok, I am griping.  I may be an old pro at RPGs, but going cold into a new RPG on PDF only and no on hand assistance is frustrating.  I just put together last night a new character for a game I have been playing for years, with an expert GM over my shoulder.  It took 3 hours.. but it is a well constructed character.  This, in a word, hurts.  Hurts my brain in three!

How do you want me to do the d6 rolls for attributes?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #38):

Lee,

I hate making characters, too.

There's an unofficial no-bashing T2013 policy here! One of the players and a lurker worked on the game. I'm sure there's things they would have done some things different and better.

Attributes are bought using the optional point system. As Veterans you get 60 points to spend.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:47, Sat 28 Apr 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #39):

Oooooh I was hunting a generator or editable character sheet, is that available?

Sorry to bash, but I got into the rules and had a hard time finding the generation area, then wanted to scream because it wasn't making sense.

Ok, cool.. so I see the optional point system.

Any word on that cool editable sheet?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #40):

Oh good, it wasn't just me.  I sent a bunch of emails to Tony INRE this.  :)

--Hawke

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #40):

I think Max has an excel spreadsheet?

Don't get rid of your old character sheets, PM them to me.

Oh... to clarify for the new players, Lee and I have gamed together for years, so don't be surprised if we rag on each other a bit. (Also, for that matter Javier/Taras and Marc/Andy.)

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #42):

Lol, yeah I am mouthy, sorry!  Not meaning to hurt innocent bystanders!

Ok.. on OODA and CUF do you round up or down?

email me that sheet if you have it, I printed out the book sheet and am working off it.

I am using my old sheet as a reference!

In reply to helbent4 (msg #39):

I dont consider it bashing.  Its one of the things we screwed the pooch on and a valid complaint.

Page 199 or the rule book:

"Learning experiences don’t provide immediate benefits.
Your character needs time ― more specifically, at least a week of
downtime ― to reflect on what he’s learned. During downtime,
you may make one percentile roll for each learning experience box
with a check in it, to a maximum of three rolls for any one skill. If
the roll is greater than or equal to your character’s age, he gains
one point in that skill. After making all rolls, erase all your check
marks and starts the process over."

SOOO... you have 10 checks.  Pick "X" ammount of skills to distrubute those 10 checks.  Roll a D100% check vs. your PCs age (for example, age 30 = 30%).  If you roll 30% or less you increased skill by 1 point.

Help any?

1)  OODA/CUFF round up or down up to the GM. (Game rules say round down... FYI)
2)  Remember when buying attributes you MUST spend 6 points on EDU.
3)  Did everyone get the .xls PC sheet?  if not email me at twilight2000v3@gmail.com

Any PC gen question feel free to either post here or email me directly.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:36, Sat 28 Apr 2012.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #43):

I realise we have a character-creation thread that's been dormant, lo these many years!

Let's take character-creation over to that thread.

link to a message in this game

Tony

Team,

Interesting post about how snipers are trained in the Canadian Army...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/...anadian-Armed-Forces

Tony

No offense.. but that is a strange system.  Why would it be easier to learn something if you are older?  In my experience younger people generally learn faster.  This increase system seems arbitrary and designed to limit increases.  Strange advantage to older characters, too.

This is similiar to Chaosium's (RuneQuest/Call of Cthulu/ElfQuest/Hawkmoon/ect) increase system, but theirs makes sense.  With those games stats run from 1-100 in percent chances to succeed.  In order to increase your skill, you subtract your skill from 100, and roll underneath that.  That represents that the more you know, the harder it is to learn more.  It makes a bunch of sense.  So if you have a 10% chance to do something, and succeed, you have a 90% chance to learn from that, whereas is you succeed at something you have a 90% chance of success at doing, you only stand a 10% chance of learning something.  Simple, and makes sense.

Twilight 2013 seems to have avoided the KISS approach.

Also, is EDU a 6 point minimum buy for all characters?  That seems a tad odd to me.

You can set EDU at 5 if you wish but 6 is normal.

The rules as written make it harder to learn as you get older: you have to roll over your age to succeed so a 25 year old has to roll 25+ and a a 70 year old has to roll 70+.

Ahhhh, well that makes a lot more sense!  The previous post had it the other way around.

I can live with that.   Thanks for the clarification!

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #49):

Team,

Expect a game restart in a few days. I'm in no big rush and there are a few things that need to be accomplished. We'll go with who we have.

At this point it makes sense to move your base of operations to New Westminster (aka New West), as that will give you easiest access to Surrty, the US border and the Fraser Valley. The government is looking to move the provincial government there, as it's the largest city in the Lower Mainland (technically, returning the capital there after over a century of being located in Victoria on Vancouver Island).

The active PCs will be there setting up your new base (possibly at Cariboo Hill, the high school you used as a forward base before) with the LAV-III and probably the UAZ-469 and a few support personnel. That's where you'll meet Stone and Hawkins. Lo can catch up when he can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Westminster

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #50):

Hmmm New West, pop originally about 65K.  That's big in post Twilight, though sure it is not that much by game time.  Sounds like it might be a good roost.

So we got the Lovin' Spoonful and the 'Jeep'.  Owwwwww.  Oh, well.  Not bringing the Kodiak?  *grumble*

That poor BTR is probably going to be a little bit in the shop.  Thing might end up haunted with all the death that has been in it.

I think I might do a little 'fanfic' piece on after the battle and packing, or something.  If I remember correctly, a bunch of people were wounded around Kel, some from trying to protect her.  But she didn't actually get wounded herself.  That might be worth some thought in character.  She'll want to visit some folks in the hospital too.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #51):

Lee,

Fortunately, the "Lovin' Spoonful" is the LAV-III Kodiak. The BTR is fixed but it, the BMP and all your watercraft have been requisitioned for river duty. So sorry!

I think casuatlies included Major von Stahl and Seth, and the sniper got away. Nearer to Kel, Putsep, the BTR commander, got mowed down by the quad 14.5mm AA gun as he and Kel tried to run for the BTR. She tried but failed to save him. The BTR also got lit up and the crew (driver/gunner) were injured but survived.

Closest hospital would either be UBC Pavilion by water, Royal Columbian by ground. Your choice as to which one.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #52):

I don't know why I keep wanting to call the watercraft "Kodiak".  Duh.

It's ok, the Spoonful has a killer radio ops set.  Is the UAZ a two or four seat version?  I seem to recall it was a hardback model.  UAZ 469's are really good 'jeeps', reliable, easy to fix, and darn good at what they do.

That's right.. Putsep did die.  Made Kelsey pretty determined to take out those jerks.

I'll think about it, I am writing something else right now, but I might want to take a break and write something else for this, as a change of pace.  I'll think about it first.

The Soviet Army displayed an array of artillery associated radars with meteorological, battlefield surveillance and counter-battery functions. As usual in NATO policy they were assigned a code to identify them.

Somebody had a field day:

END TRAY (RMS-1)

PORK TROUGH (SNAR-2)

PORK TROUGH-2 (SNAR-6)

BUZZ STAND (PSNR-1)

SMALL FRED

BIG FRED

SMALL YAWN

ARK-1

what's in a name...

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #54):

Javier,

Did you get the link I sent that had tons of military photos from the 80's (Commonwealth monitoring mission in Rhodesia) and early 90's? Takes time, pretty awesome!

Check it out, some nice pics of Russian military rations:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1...624856540264/detail/

Speaking of the Zodiac, I might just start you guys out in one. Would certainly simplify things!


Tony

Yes I did!

great pictures from Rhodesia, I really like those with the aircrafts and helos. Also interesting mix with some ex Yugo armor in Bjeljina and that soviet trench digging machine...

Totally unaware of this zampolit version of the BTR series:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1...et-72157624856540264
This message was last edited by the player at 07:34, Wed 02 May 2012.

Tony,

here is a list with all the equipment related to my character. Feel free to re adjust for the incoming new chapters. The initial demolition kit was issued for free at the Uni. The PKM, although used in the last action, can be returned to the militia. My character is using now 30 rounds mags for the AKS-74U after a few were "liberated" from the bandits running the technical along Marine Dr.

Taras locker:

50 Blasting caps (percussion)
50 Blasting caps (electric)
2 100m spools of electrical wire
1 500m spool of tripwire
1 Blasting Machine
2 100m coils of Fuse, Instant (can be combined with itself to set up multiple charges or with a timed fuse)
2 100m coils of Fuse, Timed (can be used with itself or instant fuse as above)
50 Ring-pull Igniters (for tripwires or instant detonation, can be used with percussion blasting caps)
5 Timers (30 seconds to 48 hours)
5 Tripwire igniters (triggers either if a wire is tripped or goes slack from being cut)
2 Waterproofed Canvas shoulder bags for above (not including spools or coils)


Russian prepared demolition charges:

x4 (0.4 Kg) large blocks.
x4 1 Kg Satchel charge.
x4 3 Kg Satchel charge.
x3 5 Kg Satchel charge.

Basic firearms:
1 (donated to the locals) PKM and a case of ammo.
1 AKSU-74 with 5 mags and a case of ammo.
1 Makarov PM +2 mags.
1 S&W 9 mm Pb. Mod. 5946 +2 mags.
6 hand grenades RG-5
6 flares

More hand grenades:
RGO x20
RDG-2 (smoke) x6
RGG-2Kh (irritant gas) x6

Rockets:
RPO-A Shmel x4

Land mines:
MON-100 x4
PMN-2 x8
POMZ-2 x10
OZM-72 x16
TM-57 x4
TM-62M x4

Fuzes:

-Command detonation using PN manual inductor attached to demolition
cable to a EDP-R electric detonator.
-MUV and VPF.
-MVE-72 electric breakwire.
-VP13 seismic controller.
-MVZ-57
-MVSh57 tilt with MD019 detonator.

Other items:

- 400 cigarettes.
- 4 bottles of vodka.
- 12 book matches.
- 50 ft paracord.
- 2 candles (6 inch tall).
- Old Soviet alarm clock.
- 6 clothspins (wood).
- A mouse trap.
- RC off-road toy car.
- A multitool.
- Russian military engineer tool.
- Sewing kit.
- Telescope (15x-45x).
- Flashlight (whatever Red Army standard).
- 4 electric wire spools.
- 4 rolls of fine wire.
- 4 spools of fishing line.
- 4 rolls duct tape.
- 6 rolls electric tape (mostly black).
- Small first aid kit.
- Small, portable multiband radio.
- Spare batteries for the above items including 4 9 V PP3 batteries (RC remote hand set).
- Regular soapbox with assorted nails and screws.
- Sleeping bag. Standard issue.
- A backpack. 30L, hold most of the above items.
- Chest rig. 4 mag pouches + 6 grenade pouches.

Team,

Sorry, it's too late tonight but I think we'll start the next campaign tomorrow.

I still need Max to post his character sheet and gear list. As well, I need Hawk's gear list, background, portrait. I have nothing so far from Lo, he can catch up later, easily enough!

Tony

Don't make me paint the 'Lovin' Spoonful' pink camo to set it apart from another Zodiac.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #59):

Team,

I think I'm leaning towards the 8-man Zodiac idea. This makes sense, the Fraser River is now the main transportation artery for the GVRD (the Greater Vancouver Regional District).

So, plan on 5-6 PCs plus an NPC or two. Zodiacs can hold an astounding amount of cargo (max load 1200kg) but if you load her with personnel, a mountain of gear plus support weapons that's asking for it.

Also, I've often thought of the T2K adventures for the Vancouver area ("The River", "Safari") as being lite versions of the "Vistula Epic" and "Armies of the Night". I figure just go with it. In Poland you go down the Vistula in a river tug, on the Fraser you go by inflatable Zodiac. In Canada we have an expression: "lower your expectations".

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #60):

Pink Camo it is.

That makes two Zodiacs?  The new folks and the old folks with the leaky pink painted tub?

Lee,

Dream on! You got to where you're starting in different modes of transportation, you'll be starting off in one Zodiac. No, better make that birchbark canoes...

Tony

http://www.flickr.com/photos/a.../1356834656/sizes/o/

Bet they leak less water fording than the Zodiaks!

I've seen a M577 and a M561 "Float".  "Float" is used very generously.

Zodiac not a half bad APC, though.  And it has cool art.  We'll just ditch the pink camo.

For now.

Lee,

You're getting Zodiac and Kodiac mixed up again.

Zodiac:



http://www.globalsecurity.org/...army/fm/7-93/Ch6.htm

Kodiac:



Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:51, Sun 06 May 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #65):

Lee = Idiotac

Team,

You have started the new chapter.

Rejoice!

As well, you have the choice between the LAV or the Zodiac.

No idea how to intro Matt and Wayne. They could just be there at the meeting, we can ease them in. As well, William is in New West and could easily be at the base for the briefing.

Animaniacs:



Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 11:08, Sun 06 May 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #67):

Must haz lovin spoonfulz

http://www.cardcow.com/211305/snr-6-hovercraft-uk/

A rather interesting option...

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #69):

Here she is with her sister at the hanger on Sea Island:



Tony

The powerplant is the Rolls-Royce Gnome, a single spool turboshaft engine originally developed by the de Havilland Engine Company. The Gnome came to Rolls-Royce after their takeover of Bristol Siddeley in 1966, Bristol having absorbed de Havilland Engines Limited in 1961.

A free-turbine turboshaft, it was used in helicopters such as the Westland Sea King, Whirlwind and Wessex models and from Agusta: A-101 (x3 in the lonely prototype), AB-204B and A-205BG (Italian Hueys). Also Kawasaki used this engine for the Swedish Navy KV-107II-16 (Japanese made CH-46).

This model of hovercraft, Saunders-Roe SR.N6, is a really old one that first appeared back in 1965 but curiously enough was present in military operations before and during the Iran-Irak war in the Persian Gulf. Also the Italian, Egyptian and Saudi Navy operated this vessel.

An Internet blessing: http://www.shahyad.net/iiarmy/...raft/Hovercraft.html
This message was last edited by the player at 09:39, Mon 07 May 2012.

Team,

This is a basic list of personnel and vehicles. It's not every piece of gear, grenade or Claymore but enough to get you going. (The team captured quite the armoury over the previous phase of operations, most of which either remains back at UBC or has been passed out to local militia).

B Detachment Personnel:

1st Lt. Matthew Stone (OF-2); Recce/Mechanic.
Staff Sgt. Taras Shevchenko (RCMP/OR-8); Law Enforcement, Combat Engineering.

Master Sniper Andy McRae (OR-7); Sniper/Recce
Sergeant Kelsey Champlain (OR-6); Comms, mechanic.
Sergeant Keith Tremblay (USMC/OR-5); Heavy Weapons, LAV Gunner.
Cpl. William Hawke (OR-4); Royal Marines, Combat Medic.
Able Seaman Wayne Lo (OR-3); Riverine Operations, Demolitions, backup LAV driver.
Rifleman Chris MacDonald (OR-3); Spotter, backup medic.

Signaler Arif Mahanandi (OR-3); Base Comms Operator.
Contractor Jeff Castro: Base Security (Former USMC)
Contractor DeShawn Walters: Base Security (Former 82nd ABN)
Contractor Mike Fitz: Base Security (Former 3rd ID)

Detachment Vehicles:

1x LAV-III Kodiak ("Lovin' Spoonful") Fully supplied and operational. Added: 2x side-mounted Claymores in wood boxes. Switched to bio-diesel fuel. Full ammo load, electronics fully functional (2x secure digital radios). 25mm CG, 7.62mm coaxial MG, C6 TC weapon.

1x 1993 Jeep YJ (OD Green): diesel engine, soft top. Pintle mount on roll-bar. 2km CB radio.

1x UAZ-469 (OD Green w/black trim): diesel engine, soft top. Pintle mount on roll-bar. 2km CB radio.

1x M1026 HMMWV (USMC pattern camouflage): diesel engine, hard top, basic armour package, recovery winch, M240 GPMG on ring mount. 1x SINGCARS secure radio.

1x 8-man Zodiac inflatable boat.

Support Weapons:

1x Carl Gustav (FFV-551 HEAT, 84mm x6, FFV-545 ILLUM, 84mm x4)
1x ERYX Short-Range ATGM (5x Missiles)
1x M249 SAW (Tremblay's alternate weapon)

Spare Electronics

1x PRC-77 Manpack Radio

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:36, Fri 11 May 2012.

Tony,

regarding the new starting location I have a few questions:

- Are we going to be billeted there on a permanent basis?

- If so, are we taking all of our personal kit to the new location?

- I understand that some items are being "donated" (hell, are we the "Salvation Army now?) to the militia but what are those?

I suggest the creation of a new armory facility at the current location for those items that could be needed in specific missions like explosives, NVGs, NBC equipment etc. as UBC is now several clicks away.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #73):

1) Yes, it's going to be your home now. Arif is supposed to handle comms at base. If you take him, there will be no one to work the radios.

2) Personal kits are going. There will be site security so no one can just walk in, but again, if you take them then no one will replace them.

3) Plan on what I've said, plus personal weapons and gear, which should be posted. You may ask but don't count on anything extra. Everything else is being loaned out. Yes, you are now the Sally Ann.

4) I can start a gear/armoury thread to better help you keep track of what's in stores.

Tony

Thank you. My character has tons of heavy stuff that goes boom. I shall trim the locker.

Taras is giving to the militia:

- The borrowed PKM with ammunition.
- 8 Anti tank mines: TM-57 (x4) and TM-62M (x4)
- 16 bouncing bettys (OZM-72)

and ancilliary equipment:

-MVE-72 electric breakwire.
-VP13 seismic controller.
-MVZ-57
-MVSh57 tilt with MD019 detonator.

Taras is donating also his telescope (15x-45x)

In return he is keeping the NBC/MOPP kit used in the last mission, a set of NVGs and replacing the telescope with a more handy set of binocs. Something like a vintage "Bell & Howell" 8x40 EWA will do.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:59, Tue 08 May 2012.

Team,

My post has been extensively modified.

Please have a read!

Aside from the PCs (Andy, Kel, Taras) and NPCs (Mac, Tremblay, Arif, Belanger) 2 of 3 new PCs are present (Wayne, William).

Stone is en route.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #76):

Updated the fool out of mine too, especially with Tony's changed post

Awesome doco:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Z5__IkaCs


What happens to nature after a nuclear accident? And how does wildlife deal with the world it inherits after human inhabitants have fled? The historic nuclear accident at Chernobyl is now 25 years old. Filmmakers and scientists set out to document the lives of the packs of wolves and other wildlife thriving in the "dead zone" that still surrounds the remains of the reactor.

Guys I probably missed it but where is our FOB located?  I want to see where we are in relation to "PIG FARM AO".

UPDATE:  I found the area of 6th and 16th Ave in New Westminster but.....?
This message was last edited by the player at 21:15, Thu 10 May 2012.

In reply to Matthew Stone (msg #79):

Hey... uh.

"Makes proper introductions"?

Could you please expand that out in the post?  Since characters will react to the introduction based on what he says?

Not trying to be rude, wondering how he introduces himself.  Please?

-Lee

Ah, what would you like to know? It's my old high school.

The only fully intact building is the gymnasium, which is detached and on the far  south side of the school grounds from the blast areas to the north. The team can stay in the gym. Doors are big enough to admit the jeep or the UAZ, but not the LAV. The LAV is parked under a temporary shelter in the clear space between all the buildings (which are still partially intact).

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=...adius=15000&z=18

While it would be natural to do that as a shout-out to where I first played T2K back in '85 or '86, it wasn't my idea. It was actually Javier's suggestion but it really worked in-game.

As for your character's "pop", we worked this out ahead of time!

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:21, Fri 11 May 2012.

NO prob... re posted :-)

No real need, it's a surprise to the team, too.

Concern about OPSEC is valid, I'll address that and give Javier a chance to post tonight when he gets home from work.

Tony

Tony, I know we are good on 77's, but do we have any 68's?  (the little walkie talkie sized ones)

The AN/PRC-68B is fine. Marine units were not uncommon in BC at one point.

Tony

Yeah, added that to descrip as soon as you said yes.  Any chance she can pick up a few of those critters?  Might be an after action thing, but I'd like all elements to have at least a 77, and a 68 as a backup.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #86):

You have what you have for now!

We can look into more radios in a bit.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #87):

*starts a Christmas wish list*

From wikipedia:

The LAV III is powered by a Caterpillar 3126 diesel engine developing 350 horsepower, and can reach speeds of 100 kilometres per hour. The vehicle is fitted with 8x8 drive and also equipped with a central tire inflation system, which allows it to adjust to different terrain, including off-road. The LAV III is fitted with a modern anti-locking brake system (ABS) and a traction control system (TCS). Unlike earlier versions of the LAV, the LAV III does not have any amphibious capabilities.




it is "half amphibious".... it can actually float and cross deep water yes, but it uses its tires and goes very slow. Propellers could be attached to the drive system by a good mechanic/engineer, although official specifications say what the vehicle can do, it's up to the army engineers to mod and bring out the best of the vehicle but so far this is what we have.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:00, Fri 11 May 2012.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #89):

The New West militia has a pair of Cougars. They have propellers you could probably scavenge, as they are for the Piranha hull.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #90):

back to the deep water fording kits, I guess.

Or the Zodiac.

Group,

1) I forgot to mention Chris ("Mac") is experienced in small boats, although certainly not as much as Wayne!

2) Please make a post containing what your PC is carrying. Very important!

3) All characters are assumed to have knee/elbow pads, goggles, sunglasses, gloves, etc..

4) CF-issue body armour is the "Tactical Vest" with Level IV Inserts (per T2013 pg. 215).

Have a look at the following link if you'd like. Most Canadian army troops (at least in BC) will be equipped along these lines as the newer-pattern gear was issued to European units, first. In fact, the WE82 pattern wasn't completely replaced in the CF as of 2009 and so would be common in the Twilight War.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.co...ring/1982pattern.htm

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 11:19, Wed 16 May 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #92):


To clarify, please spend a few minutes and detail what you're carrying. I assume you're armed. Sidearm? Personal Radio? NVGs? Body armour? Grenades? Flex-cuffs? Rations? Use what's been posted as a guideline.

Not all players have completely character backgrounds. It's been long enough, this can't wait. You got a couple days but I want you to get on this.

Make it at least several paragraphs long. Not only training, schooling and qualifications, but where they're from, family (surviving or not), religion (if any), personality, personal history before the war, any girlfriends or wives, children, etc.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:18, Wed 16 May 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #93):

And what model radio you have!  It matters!

I'll let you choose if they don't know. Christ, even I don't know!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #95):

"My... is that a case of AN/PRC 148 secure multiband radios?"

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #96):

Lee,

I'll say it's important enough for everyone to have common comms. So your team had priority on US-issue AN/PRC-148 tactical radios. The CF has a new supplier! (Australia, which is largely intact.) We'll assume everyone has the same type of set.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #97):

Holy Sh#@!

That's like.. big.

That's like.. awesome.  That's secure, scrambled, channel jumping man portable comms.

I'm in love.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #98):

My pleasure. Your team has a high priority for gear. It's a special effect, anyways.

It's natural to want to know what I'm looking for in a gear list. I don't particularly need every button, stitch and band-aid (but be specific as you like). As a GM my priorities are:

1) Shooty things and ammo.
2) Explody things like grenades (frag, WP?) and Claymores.
3) Protective things. (Body armour, gas mask?)
4) Tactical comms, vision aids.
5) Useful non-lethal munitions and devices. (Smoke, tear gas, pepper spray, flex-cuffs)

Tony

Lee,

A couple characters have "Motorola" radios. These are 1km unsecure analog units.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #100):

yuck.  but their security lies in limited transmission, code,and short range

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #101):

My current action is "driving."  Unless I get different orders, I'm not stopping for the guy in the road.

Make us an "In Character" post to that effect, then, describing your action, or lack of?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #103):

Already done.  Waiting for A-6 to tell me what to do.

In reply to William Hawke (msg #104):

So you did!  Sorry!

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #105):

No worries.  Just trying to make sure that it didn't get overlooked, or that the CO expected me to stop without being ordered.  It's his decision, after all.  Kind of like what I expect when I'm doing first aid.  :)

no worries!

I think the other two in the vehicle with you take longer to post.

We've got our own drama in the boat, it seems.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #107):

Me too, but I'm making sure.  :)

In reply to William Hawke (msg #108):

Yeah, might get lost in the shuffle!  Don't worry, Tony will read it.  I think one of your folks is an NPC?

Oh, I was looking for your post. It never occurred to me Hawke would just drive by. Way to win hearts and minds, there! I reposted the RoEs, you should all have a look at them (for the new players).

Max seems AWOL at the moment. If he doesn't post by later today, Tremblay will take over as vehicle commander for the mean time. Stone has been up for 72 hours, he might just pass out and be an NPC until Max can post.

My apologies, I kind of skipped the end of Wayne and Kel's conversation, it's fine to finish it off.

As well, I realised that the Zodiac crew would all be wearing life vests as SOP. Wayne wouldn't let them on without it. You are far more likely to drown than get shot, so I'll retcon that a little.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #110):

LOL!  yeah, life vests would be a darn good idea!

In reply to helbent4 (msg #110):

Stopping where an unknown asks you to stop is asking for a rocket in field where the opfor has had time to write up a range card and pick landmarks.

When I worked for State Fire, we were ordered not to stop for disabled vehicles, in our clearly marked cars, because it might be a hit on us.  Never mind that it had never happened before, we could be killed by a terrorist intent on disrupting the State's fire services.  :|

I also recognize that the guy looking to talk to us could be a plot device, which is why I brought the subject up here.  Let the guy who makes more money make the decision.

--Hawk

In reply to William Hawke (msg #112):



Sure, always safest to assume everyone's an enemy unless proved otherwise. Tremblay should light 'im up, just to be sure!

Tony

You mean the guy accruing more backpay?

LOL

-Lee

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #114):

Note on rank:

Due to the proliferation of Sergeants in the US Army and Marine Corps, a US Sergeant is equivalent to a Canadian/British Corporal under the shared NATO rank scheme. (Canadian OR soldiers also call themselves "Gravel Technicians" because pretty much every American soldier who's not a Sergeant is a "Specialist" of some kind.)

This means that, technically, Sgt. Tremblay and Cpl. Hawke are of equivalent rank.

For purposes of commanding the LAV while the OC, Lt. Stone, is dismounted, in the CF, the VG (Tremblay) then becomes VC.

Important: Can anyone find or point me towards any kind of reaction tables or rules for interacting with NPCs? That is, specific applications of Persuasion, PER attribute, etc.? Thanks!

Mac mocked Kel for saying "Hoo-Ra!". Apparently, CF personnel do use that term... ironically or sarcastically.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:48, Sun 20 May 2012.

Found on the net:

So who was Mr. Pitt anyway, for whom Pitt Lake, River, and Meadows are named? William Pitt the Younger, of course, who became Prime Minister of Great Britain in 1783, at the age of 24. The American colonies were just lost, in fact as well as on paper, with the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. His father, William Pitt the Elder, had been PM too. He was the beloved "Great Commoner" who helped lose New England, accepted the title of Lord Chatham (some commoner), and died of syphilis. Young Pitt was greeted as "not just a chip off the old block, but the old block himself," in the words of Edmund Burke.

Years after Pitt Jr. died, heartbroken over Napolean’s victories, a fan of his gave us Pitt’s River. James McMillan, founder of Fort Langley, penned it in his journal of 1827 and it stuck.

So who was Mr. Burke anyway, for whom Burke Mountain is named? Edmund Burke was a gift-of-the-gab Irishman who surfaced in the Great Commoner’s era. He served as MP in London for decades, and when he rose to speak, the world listened. We still quote him with such gems as "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."

Burke’s fan here was Captain Richards of the HMS Plumper, who named Burke Mountain while surveying Burrard Inlet in 1860.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:05, Mon 21 May 2012.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #116):

Hopefully, Max can post soon! In the mean time, let's continue with the riverine element for now.


Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:34, Wed 23 May 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #117):

Clarification:

1) There's 1 visible farm building within the artificial island.

2) You can see maybe the peaks of a couple roofs, but with 15 feet (5m) of water covering the site, there's not much to see.

3) For possible enemy force radio intercept, if you're using the PRC-68B is that possible? Certainly with the PRC-77. (These sets are scrambled but someone picking up their frequency might be able to hear something.) What about Wayne's digital PRC-152 set?

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #118):

BOOM!  Good thinking!  And the Loving Spoonful has digital sets too!

Updating my last message.
This message was last edited by the player at 12:59, Fri 25 May 2012.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #119):

Ah shit, I hate giving players ideas! Well, I guess it goes both ways.

I think Max is having difficulties posting, I'll NPC Stone so that we can keep things moving along. The LAV is not in position but should be there soon. Note that it can't really get into position due to the floodwaters, although if you were going to test it's minimal amphibious capabilities the shallow, still waters of a flooded road would be the best place to do so.

Tony

Team,

I talked to Max and he's just having trouble posting. He'll let me know when he can post more often, and of course he'll be welcome to do so when it's feasible for him.

As for me, I'll be heading out today to the beach (Locarno/Spanish Banks) so won't post until tonight. The LAV will be joining up momentarily, so it's okay to make a radio call as you'll all be caught up, more or less.

Tony

Team,

I found a couple half-completed homes where the closest one's roof line is about 2-3m above the water, at about or just above the same level as the berm (but not enough to see down into the enclosed area. This would be about 300m NNW of the island and the zodiac can approach from the north, a more screened approach.

The expectation is that the sniper's OP should be more or less to the north, as the LAV is presumably coming up from the west or south.

CORRECTION: the water is deep enough that there is no trouble approaching. There is no need now for Wayne to make an Aquatics skill roll as it's unlikely that anything will foul the propeller (aside from something hidden, like a tree).

Does everyone know how to make rolls?

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 08:42, Wed 30 May 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg #122):

With the new system... not really?

Is a target or diff set?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #123):

It's not too complicated. Compare the skill level (what dice you roll) versus a target number of the applicable Attribute. The lower you roll, the better you do, the higher you roll the worse you fail.

For example, Kelsey has a Professional (3d20L) skill level in electronics and electronics tasks are typically COG (Cognition).

To make an electronics skill check, you would roll 3d20s, take the lowest number rolled. The target number is Kel's COG of 6. Easy tasks would raise the TN by +2, a difficult task would be -3. Unskilled checks roll 2d20H (roll 2d20, take the highest number).

1) It's not a horror movie. You can make a Construction skill check vs AWA (Awareness) to identify the sound, with no modifier. So, Kel has no Construction but an AWA of 10. She would roll 2d20, take the higher number and compare to 10. Wayne has an Expert (4d20L) skill level and an AWA of 8. Please post roll results to the Die Roll thread, or make a character post.

2) The house is unfinished and flooded to the roof, it might have a crawlspace where there would be insulation but otherwise, it's typical for a late 20th-century residential home (no real attic).

3) Mac and Andy have just debarked onto the roof, so they are within talking distance (10m-20m or so) of Taras but the Zodiac could be a little farther off.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:17, Wed 30 May 2012.

Unless Kel is joking, the water around you (the places you can get LOS to the farm) is 3-5m deep in places. In American, this means 9-15m feet of depth. This is why you are generally only seeing the roofs of houses above the floodwater.

The Humvee deep fording water kit will allow the vehicle to ford 1.5m, or 5 feet. The LAV can safely ford 1.2m (4 feet) but a skilled driver like Tremblay can take it to about 2m, which is just over 6 feet, but still not enough.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #125):

Ahhh, must be a joke then!  LOL.  Use the UAZ, a skilled driver can do stupid things with them

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #126):

No worries, it's been tough conveying how the water makes it difficult to get the LAV into a position where it can cover the farm. I posted the aerial photo showing your relative positions. For that matter, I visited a friend who lives in Port Moody and we drove by the site. It's hard to convey just how the trees and houses block LOS.

Should you go in without LAV support? That was the plan and it's certainly safest, but terrain and unforeseen conditions might require some flexibility. (In this case, the water level won't be low enough for weeks, maybe months. Will you wait until then?)

It's also tricky working from maps and satellite photos, even going out there you realise how much has changed in the last 10 years.

To Clarify: Andy and Mac will not be finished getting into position for another five minutes. The LAV doesn't have LOS. (Too bad you don't have the LAV Coyote with the deployable mast-mounted sensors!) The zodiac is behind some houses and can easily move into position.

Tony

Javier,

I about fell out of my chair when I read your post, since yours are usually so long and well thought out.

Since we are facing a Hobson's choice here may as well turn it into a first person shooter then.

Javier,

It would be very foolish to think of this as a first-person shooter situation. You only have 1 life, no save games.

In this case, timing and geography are not on your side or indeed under your control and to expect it to be otherwise all the time is unrealistic. I hope you find the situation interesting, challenging and absorbing!

Tony

Haha! Great line!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #131):

Ok... it looks like Raw awareness rolls are being used a lot.  Is there not a skill for this?  Did we miss something?  Something that tops out at 11 is very scary to have at 2d20L.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #132):

While I'm not a master of the rules, there doesn't appear to be anything missing. AWA is used for visual checks. You are welcome to have a look for yourself, of course.

I feel bad you aren't making your rolls... that's the nature of RPGs!

As it is, Kel has a 77.5% chance to make an average AWA roll. What would be less scary? 90%? 100%? (Before it's pointed out that 11 out of 20 is only 55% chance of success, you do get two kicks at the can and so, mathematically, your 45% chance of failure is halved to 22.5%. I can't find Kel's old character sheet, but under the old rules you would need INT + OBS of 15.5 to beat an AWA of 2d20L with a TN of 11.

One caveat: while I have been making rolls only for situations that aren't immediately obvious at an "Average" difficulty (+0). I'll have a look at maybe assigning an easier difficulty for AWA when appropriate.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #133):

Oh right, I was thinking that it was the highest.  D20's confuse me!

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #134):

Looking at the rules, it seems that general visual rolls are made as Attribute checks, 2d20L vs. AWA.

That said, I see that combat-related AWA rolls (ambush checks) are typically Tactics/AWA. This would not have affected Andy's rolls, but Kel would have 3d20L for Tactics to roll on. As well, you're not looking for an ambush but important visual details.

I'll consider reworking the results of some past rolls to account for the difference in difficulties.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #135):

I knew there had to be some skill that worked with it

Team,

The other players are aware of this, but when making a post in combat don't neglect the ".tac bloc". This is imporant information for me!

Name (or Call Sign)
Weapon (Ammo Remaining)
Location (roughly)
Action

You can put as much additional information (grenades, whatever) but mostly, I want to make sure we're on the same page as to what you're doing, location, ammo remaining.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #137):

Crap... got the order wrong when relayed to the snipers... said "If needed" by Taras, and Kel just said to engage... I missed it this morning before my coffee.  Should I edit, or should we let it roll?

Alternately, can I add another post to Alpha adding the "If needed"?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:33, Tue 05 June 2012.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #138):

Lee,

1) Taras's order was clear and would supercede Kel's command. Besides, Andy's pro enough to decide when to take his shot or not and the RoEs are clear.

2) The backup call is Stone's, anyways. It would make sense to call for the cavalry. The only time not to call for them is if you didn't contact anyone. It's clear you have, or soon will. They can always be halted, sent back.

3) If anything, this is more of a good RP moment, when things are getting carried away a little but not past the point of insubordination. The chain of command was clear from the get-go so things should still function smoothly.

Tony

Tony

1)  His order was clear... and Kel was supposed to relay it to the snipers, and I muffed it.

2)  Correct.

3)  A mistake, but not one that should be made.. it is a life?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #140):

At this point things have progressed and As Javier would say, it's the "fog of war".

I'm not familiar with the combat rules, I'll have to drag them out.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #141):

Yeah.. fog of war I suppose.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #142):

Group,

I was messing around with posts and accidentally deleted an important one from Andy, would you mind not posting until he does again? Thanks!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #143):

looks like we have it.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #144):

I was looking at the mission-related code words. Could you give me an example of when those would be used? Like, instead of saying "Tango is down" would you say "Kitten is down"?

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #145):

One kitten down, the chair is against the wall.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #146):

Bandsaw is still running, sounds like they're cutting something up.

The door to the "slaughterhouse" is partially ajar, allowing you to hear better what's going on inside.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #147):

could have the snipers try to take out the camera facing their way

No metagame suggestions!

Tony

RPO-A Shmel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7eYGWjZI8s

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #150):

Stop that!  That wasted half an hour of surfing youtube's weapons videos!

--Hawk

This message was deleted by the player at 04:48, Sun 10 June 2012.

Bet you're not going to be the only one mulling over thermo-explosions on Youtube...

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #153):

The RPO-A Shmel is a nasty weapon! Using a bunker-buster on a barn is overkill. OVERKILL!!!!

If I go strictly by the rules, Kel and Taras would be hurting bad, or dead! I could fudge things a bit, half the damage due to the sloped nature of the berm deflecting some of the blast, but still...

On the other hand, Taras would know this weapon intimately, and know the dangers in a way that Javier (and I) would not, so you could argue he wouldn't have taken this shot if there was significant chance of personal injury. Kind of a meta-game effect, if you will. (I generally don't accept the argument from players "my character wouldn't do that" if they make a mistake, but this is a little different.)

So probably Kel and Taras are going to be a little injured (hey, even lying down you're going to feel something if a 122mm artillery shell hits nearby).

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #154):

Sounds like my next post needs to be retcon'd, I didn't realize the explosion was going to be quite that big.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #155):

Well, she can still move even if wounded, and it just means she's running into an inferno with burning debris raining down.

As there was no warning from Taras, I'm probably going to need an OODA roll for Kel to take cover, although I can't see what cover you have on top of the berm.

Overall, I might have to retcon some details you so that both characters are back from the forward lip of the berm, and can take cover on the reverse slope. (The top of the berm is maybe 2-3m wide, so it doesn't make sense you wouldn't be making use of easily available cover.)

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #156):

Um.. that makes sense

Does this mean that the person we are trying to rescue is probably dead?

Sounds like it to me.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #157):

The barn is annihilated, so anyone there is toasted.

Several RPO-As were used during the Russian assault on the school hostage takers in Breslan, it didn't end well at all. Still, you're not using the RPO-A where you know there are hostages.

I'm aware I didn't allow you too many options. Considering you have a few effectives and are forced to assault what is effectively a fortress isolated by water with little time to prepare and prep, something drastic needed to happen. So I'll try not to pile on the cruelty!

Tony

A few elements to consider here:

The RPO-A is a powerful weapon but far from a nuclear device. The overpressure that generates the ignition of the FAE mixture creates that demolition effect that we can appretiate in the videos. In the case of our barn the situation would be slighty different from what we see as we are talking about an open space with several big apertures (front and rear barn doors, front and rear upper windows and large windows on each wing of the barn) rather than an enclosed space like the bunkers or huts that are most likely to be completely ravaged. Even the classrooms in the Beslan example offer a more confined space than our barn.

The entire Eastern or right wing of the barn is going to be demolished as the three surrounding walls and upper roof will be obliterated in the deflagration. The larger and heavier upper central structure will likely collapse tilting towards the demolished area rather than fly in the sky.

We have a problem about the overall measurement of the scenario. The barn is accurately described as it was previously compared with a picture of the real one with the subject containing real life people. The berms surrounding the farm are also credible in width and height ratios according to the water level conditions and level of protection required. Adding other elements like containers, fire pits and piles of garbage in turn complicate the picture in a considerable way:

Depicted in the graphic are three containers and one of them appear to be the place where the bandsaw, hostage and victim are located. Current measures of ISO containers vary greatly in length but can be easily narrow down to a width of 2,4 or 2,5 meters that is standard for road and rail traffic. Even choosing the smallest possible containers available will require an overall review of the distances to deal with.

In any case the container where the action is taking place is slated to take the brunt of the flying debris from the Southern wall of the right wing of the barn. While unable to entire protect their occupants from the sheer blast and noise, the container, being a metallic structure, it provides protection against wooden and glass shards. Being also recipient of heavy equipment itself like the bandsaw and associated items, the container will eventually be "shaken but not stirred". Shell-shock would be guaranteed in any case.

Lots of stuff will be flying around as a result of the explosion inside the structure. Most of it coming from the walls of the right wing being blasted and therefore projecting themselves against the sides of the containers and the surrounding berms. The rooftop of this right side will be obliterated as well but less likey to affect the line of sight towards the South East corner as to go upwards and falling over the collapsed structure. Most noticeable will be the shockwave created by the explosion as it is initially contained by the barn structure, then the berms and finally projected upwards. Usually any explosive and or munitions containing building are shaped and provided with berms like our case in order to contain and deflect the blast and fragments.

Although the current location of our characters is not as exposed as those inside the berms is far from being safe. A prone position only exposes a part of the head and shoulders while the rest of the body can only be affected by missiles falling in a ballistic manner rather than a direct shrapnel impact and therefore lessening the seriousness of injury to a point.

Finally, fire will propagate through the remaining wooden structure of the barn pretty quickly creating a large release of heat and smoke that may stress the timing of the rescue of the victims.

Post RPO-A party:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afP71xwLI8Y

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg #160):

To reassure you, Taras' and Kel's hearing is returning, as they were able to take cover at the last split-second before the massive explosion.

The people laying in the container are likely going to suffer some hearing loss, as evidenced by the bleeding ears. But they're also almost completely out of it.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #161):

Good, if Kelsey can snag the woman and leave the men, she will.

Maybe close the container?

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #162):

Shouldn't be too hard. Just reach in and pull!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg #163):

That's the plan!  Leave the men.. "contained"

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #164):

No groans on my pun???  I must be slipping.

Pardon my French, blame google.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg #165):

Sure, not a bad pun. Don't worry about the French!

My apologies, there's events that need a resolution but I need to be up tomorrow. For that matter, I don't even know if I can post tomorrow, as I have events planned for the evening.

So, please just hang on, I'll move things along further. Thanks for your patience!

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 06:07, Wed 13 June 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 166):

Per my last post:

Don't... post... in... character... until.... I... do...

Lee, this means you!

I'll see if your last IC post needs to be rewound. I still have some things to resolve, rules to read, etc.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 167):

oh right, sorry... was replying!  Do what you need to

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 168):

I understand, and it's a real struggle trying to climb up a 20-feet slope of loose dirt, sand and gravel.

The action has been slightly rewound a little. She's halfway up with her burden. The hostage has not yet been handed over to Wayne.

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:02, Thu 14 June 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 169):

barring interruption, we know what her next few actions are, I guess

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 170):

Well well, things got a little tense there! Glad it worked out... for now.

We have a new player joining us soon.

Jozek will be playing Darek, a former Polish Army officer (armoured) and dissident who fled to Canada in 1993 after the communists regained control of the Polish government. After fighting the Soviets in central BC (the interior) he made his way with his family down the coast to New Westminster. Since then, he's been working with the New West Militia Garrison as commander of one of their two functional Cougar AVGPs.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 171):

YaY!  More brass!

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 172):

Don't get excited, WP ranks are not transferred so he's no longer an officer.

He's probably a private or corporal, at most.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 173):

Um.. that wasn't um.. sarcasm.  Really.

*eyedart*

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 174):

Right, and your denial it was sarcasm was in itself completely devoid of sarcasm!

Tony

Ya got me sherriff!  I'm a goner!

Just playing!  Welcome to the new player!

Welcome to our new player!

Tony,

any fancy sidearm to loot?

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 177):

Taras is taking the time?

We can say there's a couple US Army 9mm M9 Berettas and .45ACP Colt clones. There's a .44 Anaconda with telescopic sight and .50AE Desert Eagle. There is a quantity of ammunition for these as well.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 177):

LOOT!  Cigarettes, lighters/lighter fluid.  I suppose it'd be nice if she owned a sidearm too, but she is pretty concerned on the girl rescued too.  But.. smokes are hard to come by these days, a bit.

Not just taking the time. At some point he was disarming the suspects inside the slaughter house. Is not unusual to come across some "exotic" weaponry during war time and take some "trophy" as a souvenir...

Being so close to the border it always enhances the chance to get something beyond the usual. We get once in awhile some curio from some RCMP operation against the gangs here in Vancouver after all. Including the infamous Tec-9...
This message was last edited by the player at 07:13, Sat 16 June 2012.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 180):

Sure, we'll throw in a Steyr TMP and Tec-9. Also a Sten gun. (All seized in gang/biker raids.)

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 181):

Posse, looks like the cavalry has arrived!

More or less time to wrap things up.

Tony

Team,

Post whatever you like to wrap up at the farm, then head back to base.

Belanger is going to show up at the debriefing with Darek, a volunteer from the New West militia.

Tony

Kel just wants to check in on the Civ, you need to be reminded of what you are fighting for, sometimes.

She's been taken to the local hospital, Royal Columbian. It will take some time to admit her, so this might happen after the debriefing?

Your quarters are in an old high-school gymnasium. Mostly, it's an open structure with a 2nd floor balcony overlooking the basketball courts/sports areas. There are male/female showers and change rooms, as well as a band room and offices.

Briefings are done in the band room. I imagine that the sleeping quarters could be in the gynasium, with cots segregated by movable partitions. Other partitions segment off areas for storage. Vehicles are parked inside a kind of courtyard between the gym and the main building of the partially-demolished school.

There is a metal shop and vehicle garage in another detached building. The LAV is too large to fit inside the shop building so there is a temporary shelter erected beside it.



Tony

Team,

Oops, wrong thread!

I am basically on the fence with regards to the rules for T2013.

In the main, it's acceptable and even has some nice parts.

However, it's still basically unfinished in some crucial ways. Mainly with regard to equipment and vehicles. The 2.2 rules needed some fixes in terms of initiative, but did have the amazing resource of Paul Mulcahy's site to draw from.

So, as we move forward, I am giving serious consideration to changing back to the 2.2 rules. My apologies and thanks go out to those of you who took the time and made the effort to learn the new system!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 186):

Taras was looking for Belanger, weren't we still in a briefing with him?

Sudden scene change = brain hurts/
This message was last edited by the player at 09:34, Sun 24 June 2012.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 187):

I'm willing to play it a little loose. I think the briefing is over, Belanger could have already left to go make some calls about swapping vehicles!

Anyone have thoughts on changing or staying with T2013 or v2.2?

Also, Stone is being defensive, embarrassed about showing weakness. Partly I might have just been having a tough night! I'm working a few graveyards as a security guard downtown and I had to stand outside all night a generator at the CBC building. Last night I hadda deal with some guy getting stabbed in front of me. (This being Canada, he didn't get shot, and the cops and ambulance were there in minutes.)

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:45, Sun 24 June 2012.

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 188):

Wow.  Sorry Tony, and sure, whatever you need.

I'm on graveyards this week.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 189):

Ha ha, I guess what I needed is a hose to wash the blood off the sidewalk so that I'm not walking through it again all night! Oh well, I think it's rained since then.

Tony

Ahh.

Yeah, that's kinda nasty.  a few bowls or bottles of water maybe.

I've run into that a bit before myself.

For all of those with some degree of military experience this kind of situation will be extremely familiar: Unfairness.

Taras is being unfair to Kelsey. Her behaviour during the mission was somehow shaky with failure to communicate orders clearly and then following Taras leaving the new recruit behind. But she did not do so out of bad faith and acted with the purpose of protecting the team leader exonerating her of charges to the full extent of insubordination. Still, she could be perfectly charged according to chapter 103.07 of the Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces referring to Section 74 of the National Defence Act "when ordered to carry out an operation of war, fails to use his utmost exertion to carry the orders into effect" as her initiative was out of the scope of the order to remain in place. Also to a lesser extent under 103.18 "Every person who uses threatening or insulting language to, or behaves with contempt toward, a superior officer is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service or to less punishment" considering the "threat" of the hearing before charges being laid. Also under "Any act, conduct, disorder or neglect to the prejudice of good order and discipline is an offence and every person convicted thereof is liable to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service or to less punishment.", etc, etc.

But that is far away from Taras intentions. He could have call the attention of Kelsey while the action was on full swing and order her to go back but he didn't. Also when he is asked if charges would be throw against Kelsey he just mentions that he is "just a Policeman" even though as NCO in command and, again, according to the Queen's Regulations he could, as a Non Commissioned Member of higher rank, had the power to arrest her without a warrant. Although Taras, as being a delegated officer could only award a reprimand, a fine up to 25% of one month’s pay and or other minor punishments. Still, he didn't act upon any of these tenets.

Yet the intention of Taras was to test the reactions of his subordinates. He did so already in the Chinatown episode when he ordered the new american ally to throw a handgrenade inside the menacing humvee although he could have done so himself. The Jagelis incident only could help to ascertain the need to test the capacity of the leadership and so far and from Jagelis to the new commander nothing solid has come around.

Why is Taras "testing" the reaction of Kelsey and the rest of the team to such a display of "unfairness"? He knows that things will be turning more and more dangerous as soon as the final showdown with the almighty Hell's Angels is looming in the near horizon. New leadership will be needed and it will be most likely that will come from below rather than from above ranks and Kelsey is candidate number one to be a unit commander of her own. Technical skills are sufficiently demonstrated but then the intangible comes to bear as well.

Rather than offering an apology and a show of good faith, Kelsey becomes initially defensive and then offensive with the request of a hearing even when charges were not being laid. Not only that, she is challenging the Sargent to rethink his own thoughts not letting her own pride down for a second. It was not the intention of the ukrainian to charge her with anything. he mentioned discipline issues in the first place. Perhaps as a bait, then all the hell comes loose.

As a test of the moral discipline the situation turns for the worst with Andy's intervention in her favor and committing a self immolation and "not theatening" to resign. That is, imperiling the morale of the whole unit while questioning the authority of the leadership and taking sides, if personal sides, uncalled for. To make things even worst (yes! still possible!) the comments and overall demeanor of Stone just rounds up an appalling scene.

This is one of the via crucis of any military organisation: Even though being succesful in the conduction of the mission against superior odds, the internal attitude of the members, starting with Taras, endangers the future outcomes.

Beyond raising the moral issue if generating this situation was good or bad, the idea was to bring some more common than not realities of the Service. As much as one can be precise with the description of a menial 5,45 mm matte plum magazine sometimes is necessary to raise the awareness of unit morale in some less, not less real, details.

What is the solution? We are in a dilemma. A call for moderation is in order as well as some personal meditation over the problem. Taras is referring the issue to a higher up in the Canadian Forces. In this case it would be up to the GM as it couldn't be the other way! After dealing with harsh geographical terrain is a matter of negotiating the even harsher grounds of the Code of Service Discipline before moving on.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 192):

Ah man... you start throwing the words around that he was throwing around, and you are talking big mojo.  I was an NCO and the US Army, and if someone had said they wanted to charge me with insubordination, deriliction, or not following orders... I would have been defensive too.  As soon as you start talking about charges, you WILL get people's backs up.  Period.

She's backing up her actions, and says "Bring it."

That's fine. She's been already making her point. Ah, bloody graveyards...you get to meet the very best of humankind in action. I don't miss them anymore.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 194):

Nah, I'm in a very quiet place making sure the power grid humms along.  A very boring and quiet place, with any luck.

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 195):

Which grid?  I work for General Electric Energy Consulting.  We get contracted to make grids and generators work better.

--Hawk

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 196):

The SE Grid.  I work for Southern Transmission.

Ha, like I have any insight on the military!

I think this analysis is basically sound, but I also talk to Javier regularly and understand his language and thought processes to a degree.

Now that Kel has taken some degree of responsibility for her actions (and later reaction), I would hope we can move forward!

Tony

Although we already brushed some hydro project in the previous Port Moody adventure there are at least a couple of places that are not far from Vancouver that could be an excellent scenario for further missions. I already suggested Tony them and we'll try to visit them in the near future.

I hope you'll find it interesting since goes along with power related jobs.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 200):

yeah, right.  "What's that thing?"  <<<ARC FLASH ZAP!!!>>>  "Hey, Hawke smells like bacon, now that he's been crisped!"  "Dang, I'm hungry now."

Team,

1) While still mulling over a switch back to v2.2 rules from T2013, things seem to have progressed, and of course a lot of work has been done in converting your characters, so it doesn't seem fair. In other words, let's keep on with T2013 rules for now.

2) I'm still getting "Darek" up to speed.

3) He could show up in the Cougar AVGP at your base. (It's not a Coyote, which is a more advanced but non-amphibious vehicle.) Or, you could head down to the "Westies" armoury.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 202):

Westies armory sounds like more fun to me

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 203):

I was going to post something to keep things moving but I got called into work!

Assume the day won't have more meaningful interactions, we'll skip to the next day and visit the armoury, etc.

Ton y

I'm curious about what was the cargo content of the stranded ship near Stanley Park. Seems like the Survivalists were very keen of it...

works for me, and what Taras wants, as well.

It held primarily food. I think it got salvaged but that information probably got lost, never posted, etc. When Robert was playing, we did some RP where he went on a "supply run" to scavenge supplies using SCUBA gear!

Tony

Ok, thanks. The Port of Vancouver ranks first in North America in total foreign exports and second on the west coast in total cargo volume. Probably a stash of canned salmon and corned beef!

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 208):

Much of the food was damaged and spoiled, but a lot was preserved. It could well have been supplies destined for refugees or the military.

The hovercraft is still under repair.

Coincidentally, the Fraser has high flood waters right now due to a combination of snowpack melt and high rainfall. This has caused flooding in the upper valley, but the river is high and swift all along the course. Today a barge got away from the tugs towing it, capsizing one tug. It grazed the supports for the Patullo bridge (which has also happened in our game) and it took other vessels to get it under control near New West.

http://www.newwestnewsleader.com/news/160701415.html

Tony

Yeah, I saw that in the newspapers. Seems like the hovercraft is a most suitable platform to operate in dangerous riverine waters.

The recent rising of the waters is causing some legitimate concern in the local news. I already discussed this with Tony:

http://www.theprovince.com/new...d/6849474/story.html

This abandoned ferry is also an airsoft paradise.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 210):

Hello All:

My name is Józef or Józek ('for short') and I'll be playing Darek. I like in a small town in eastern Poland not far from the border of Belarus. I'm looking forward to starting so if anyone has any suggestions or doesn't understand anything I put out just let me know.

J

Welcome aboard Jozek!

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 212):

Thanks 'Sagre'!(Jose?). I forget what Tony said Taras's player was called. Maybe Taras is not the player but the character? :p I think Taras and Darek will work probably work closely together. How ironic. A Russian and a Pole working for the Canadians. That's Twilight!

I hope everyone's weekend was good. I just got back from the river. We JUST beat a HUGE torrential downpour but it did make putting up the horses in the barn a little soggy! ;p I brought back a Fritos bag full of clams, pockets full of coal that the trains drop along the local stretch of the PKP line, and a sunburn. If anybody wants anything else next time I go, let me know! :)

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 213):

I think the clams would be bad by the time they got to NY.

--Hawk

Welcome aboard Josef!

Javier plays Taras, and this game just got more interesting with a genuine Polish perspective in it!

-Lee

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 214):

They came from the Bug, Hawk. The Bug flows from Belarus, which used to be part of the Soviet Union. It's fair to say the clams were bad before I pulled them from the river!

Who knows? Maybe the flight would make them better. They could hardly be worse!

J

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 215):

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Lee. I've never been a genuine anything, except a disappointment. Well, that's what my mother says anyway! ;) Looking forward to playing with you. :)

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 217):

Technically, I think in this timeline Belarus would still be known as "Belarussia", because the Soviet Union didn't fall.

Interesting the trains dropped some coal, do they use that for fuel? Here they use diesel-electrics. Same in SE Asia, from what I saw!

Tony

During the Cold War, that is, the times of the Soviet Union, Belarus was a most important hub for railway transportation. Being so close to the border, I guess our new friend would have a fair share of trainspotting the likes of "Sergeys" and "Ludmillas" but I would lovw to hear about the origin of that coal...

Most engines were built in Luhanskteplovoz or Luhansk Locomotive works, earlier known as Voroshilovgrad, a large industrial company in Luhansk, Ukraine:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w...aine_stamps_2008.jpg

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 219):

Hey man it's all 'Wyszystko jedno'('the same'...literally 'everything one') to me. We call it 'Białorus', which is Polish for 'a cheap place to buy cigarettes and women'. PKP is the state railroad. They get a large amount of EU cash for selling their proverbial souls like the rest of the EU countries now saddled with massive debt slavery.

As a result, you find fancy trains made in Austria that cost millions of dollars sharing the same tracks as Polish trains that cost dozens of dollars. :) Guess which ones use the coal? :)

J

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 220):

Javier Ukrainian trains have the courtesy of breaking down in Ukraine, so we don't see them here. It's easier for their repairmen to get to them, so they are designed in the factory to bust only a few km from their local train yard. :)

EU border extends to Poland's eastern border, so the only rail traffic we see is either the really fancy stuff or the really run down stuff. I always assumed the crappy stuff was ours, but maybe it's Ukrainian. I'll have to take some pictures and let you know.

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 217):

:)  Well put.

Nice to meet you.

--Hawk

Jozef,

I think that is not a problem of design but rather one of maintenance. After the reunification in Germany, Deutsche Bahn was more than happy to incorparate several models produced in the Soviet Union in Lugansk, Ukraine from the 1970s onwards, and then imported into the GDR or East Germany. The Deutsche Bahn (DBAG) inherited them and continue to make use of them - mainly as heavy freight locomotives taking over many of the workings of the DB Class V 160 family due to their higher power. They were assigned to DB Cargo (now Railion) for freight services and can be seen all through Germany mainly used on heavy coal trains into the Netherlands. Not only freight, some Intercity services (such as the Berlin-Warsaw express) are still provided by DB Fernverkehr using boogie modified Ludmillas:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewblack/228486452/


PKP's current plans to develop high speed rail in Poland rivals in lunacy with the rest of Europe, the tender for a feasibility study was awarded to a consortium led by Spanish company Ingenieria IDOM. Spain has the second largest high speed fleet in the world (after China) and although it works wonders for big cities fast and expensive shuttle is leaving outside the scope smaller centres of population.

Those Polish made engines cheaper to operate that you mention are not only EP series designed and built in Poland but also ukrainian M62 derivatives. The first 4 locomotives, produced by the Voroshilovgrad Locomotive Factory, were delivered to Poland in September 1965. Deliveries continued until 1988, with 1,191 locomotives delivered in total (1,114 for PKP, 68 for LHS and 9 for industry). Probably won't break down as much as their Ukrainian counterparts due to better servicing as in the German example.

In 1997 ABB DaimlerBenz Transportation (ADtranz) acquired a majority share in Pafawaga (Polish locomotive manufacturer based in Wrocław. The Adtranz group (after 1999 named DaimlerChrysler Rail Systems) was bought by Bombardier Transportation in 2001. The Wroclaw plant was merger with another Bombardier owned plant based in Lodz to form Bombardier Transportation Polska Sp. z o.o. The plant manufacturers the bodyshells of Bombardier locomotives as well as other sub-components for the Bombardier Transportation group. So basically the future of Polish locomotive production is in Canadian hands!

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 224):

Jozef,

I think that is not a problem of design but rather one of maintenance.

>>>Javier I could NOT agree more. When you have a job no matter what, work is bare minimum and it shows.

So basically the future of Polish locomotive production is in Canadian hands!

>>>It's true! There are Bombardier stencils and placards all over the utility boxes at most crossings. Maybe something to do with electrics of the crossing and not the train itself? I don't know. You clearly are the 'train guy' so I will trust your experience/knowledge. :)

>>>It does bear mentioning that the local train bridge at Fronołów was NOT bombed by the Luftwaffe in '39. So...the bridge was made some time BEFORE then. With the push towards cars and away from the PKP by the banks it doesn't seem as if the train infastructure will get better any time soon.

J
This message was last edited by the player at 04:52, Tue 03 July 2012.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 220):

Javier:

Forgot to address the coal question. I would guess Sląsk in the south is where the coal comes from. It is sold at almost all hardware stores. Every time I make the 3km walk into town to buy groceries I always linger at the fence...just a few meters from the huge pile of tons of coal...and drool :)

Josef,

Bombardier currently operates in Wroclaw, Katovice, Lodz and Warsaw employing around 1,400 people in the construction, upgrade and maintenance of engines and rolling stock not only for local but also export market (50 complete locomotives were exported to Italy). Bombardier also provides the electrical and signal equipment associated as well as level crossings and computer based interlocking systems. Here is the main product of the family; the TRAXX locomotive:



The company also extends its reach to trams and metro cars. Bombardier's tram expertise comes from its takeover of German tram manufacturers over the last couple of decades. Some parts used in the modernization of the metro in London are made in Wroclaw, for instance. The presence in the streets of Polish cities is remarkable as the country boasts the second biggest tramway network of Europe!

Here is the tram in Krakow:


Other units operate in Gdansk, Lodz and Krakow.

Poland has one of the largest railways in Europe as a legacy of a Communist past that stressed the presence of this type of transportation after the end of WW2. The fall of the Berlin Wall and the incorporation of the country into the European Union structures demanded the interoperability and integration with the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) and safety levels (CENELEC). This demands modern technology and ISO compliance, etc and therefore the needs to partner the local industry with a solid international partner like Bombardier.

Out of this partnership, the Polish industry produces the body of the TRAXX series of locomotives not only for Poland but also America and other foreign clients as I mentioned as well as the street cars or trams that operate in the major cities. Part of the 50 million Euros that the European Union will finance the modernisation of the existing rolling stock fleet of Mazovian Railways in Central-Eastern Poland.

Interestingly, as a result of the Canadian partnership, Poland can share similar outlooks in regional trains too. This one from the Koleje Mazowiecki I believe...



...looks very similar to the very own "West Coast Express" that services here Vancouver with the city suburbs that we may encounter through the game:

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 227):

Javier:

My first instinct is that you work with trains, but no one loves what they do that much. So the question is, how long have trains been your passion?

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 228):

Post #6000!!!! What do I win? Is it a new car? As long as it isn't a Kia :p

Josef,

my favouite toy as a child was a train, of course. It wasn't anything spectacular but it lasted me many years. I grew up in front of a train station and casually later on I moved to a place one block short of a railway military unit.

But trains are just one of my passions...

Ask the GM to claim your prize. Our Dear Leader is magnanimous and wise.

Javier,

Yeah, when we were in Kuala Lumpur the light rail tracks looked familiar, like the ones at home, but not the rolling stock. Bombardier built both but used a newer design for the cars!

Tony

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 230):

Javier:

Check this out:

http://fronolow.pl/news.php

It's the bridge at the local 'swimming hole'. The bridge's claim to fame was that it was bombed by the Luftwaffe but the bomb(s) didn't detonate, so the bridge is still there. They should have just let the locals maintain it, because I was on it today and it felt like it was about to collapse. :)

J

Wow! That's a great bridge and a great story too, thanks!

I found a nice link with more pictures. Check out the "rail bus":

http://buzyska.pl/okolice/fronolow_eng.phtml

As I suspected that's not too far from the historical city of Brest, made famous by the Brest Litvosk treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

Good to have you on board, Jozef!
This message was last edited by the player at 06:02, Wed 04 July 2012.

“Seven Days to the River Rhine”

Seven Days to the River Rhine was a top secret limited war game exercise developed in 1979 by the Warsaw Pact. It depicted the Soviet bloc's vision of a seven-day atomic war between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces.





The plans predicted that NATO would launch a nuclear attack on the Vistula river valley in a first strike scenario, which would prevent Soviet bloc commanders from sending reinforcements to East Germany to prevent a NATO invasion of that country.

The plan expected as many as two million Polish civilians would die in such a war, which would essentially destroy the country. With options limited, a Soviet counter-strike against West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark would take place in an effort to slow an invasion.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 234):

I love that article you sent me, where that Polish General told off Jaruzelski in that planning session by saying Poland's position during any war was so futile that their best shot at national survival was to build a bunker with 10 women to every man, and they would just repopulate.

Tony

That was General Tadeusz Tuczapski, who served as Warsaw Pact deputy supreme commander and Polish deputy defense minister. He died during the trials against the Generals involved in the Martial Law 1981-1983 that cost a dozen lives and led to the internment of 10,000 people in prison camps.

As you pointed out, it might be worth it read it share it again:


[...]

Q: One of your colleagues, one of the generals, said that it was a game. How was it really?

Gen. Tuczapski: Absolutely a game. There was such an exercise – Carte Blanche in France. They divided France in half, and for three days they conducted nuclear attacks. After three days they came to the conclusion that there was no reason to conduct the war any further, because there was nothing to fight over. Everything was destroyed. But in our case – you know such an American plan, Wisła [Vistula]—which assumed an attack in the event of nuclear war on the eastern border, on the Vistula border and the Oder border. Hence, after getting to know this plan, because it came to us, we were, among other things, on the basis of this analysis, reconstructing fords on the Vistula, the fords on the Oder. We were building, and trans-shipment regions were prepared on the eastern border. It did not look like we
thought, that we would go and we would defeat the Danes and Belgians. And we prepared ourselves for the possibility of getting thrashed.

One time at a training briefing in the General Staff, I was angry and could not hold back since there was money there that was returned to the government. I stood up and told Jaruzelski, “General, more should be given to Civil Defense so that a good, solid bunker could be built, lock up in that bunker a hundred Polish men, some sort of real good fuckers and two hundred women so that we can rebuild the Polish nation. Give some money for that.” Of course, Jaruzelski was
insulted and said, “What are you talking about?”

We viewed things realistically. We knew what was happening, what was threatening. We realized what nuclear war meant for Poland. Well, we would not have existed after all. Neither the Americans, nor the Russians would have regretted it. We could have, I don’t know, prepared something. And really one good bunker should have been prepared so that we could have sometime rebuilt the Polish nation.

Q: You responded that in case of a threat the Russians would have had no qualms.
Gen. Tuczapski: But of course.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 236):

I think Jozek is ready to go, he had some computer problems that are getting sorted out.

Regarding space on the Cougar, in theory it can hold several dismounts in the rear but I recall it's very cramped. That space tends to get used for storing ammunition, so supplies would be no problem. You'll likely have at least one or two other soft-skins (UAZ, Humvee, probably?) along, as well.

I didn't make this very clear, but it's been about a week since the raid. In that time the Pattullo bridge was being repaired. The team has 2 relatively idle engineers (Taras and Wayne) who were idle, so they would very much have been involves. So we can say they have been making good use of themselves. The repairs they were part of were being completed today, and you are going to inspect them with an eye to safety for transit.

The larger and undamaged Port Mann bridge has been unavailable as the northern approaches were flooded by the river. Those waters have begun to recede but it will take a few days for it to clear enough for most vehicles to use the larger bridge.

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 237):

Tony:

Could Darek be involved in helping Taras with the bridge? I can see him in an advisory role, as he would feel the need to 'make sure' the bridge was sound enough for 'his' precious cougar. Besides it is a nice segway into whatever Taras has planned for the Cougar.

As far as gear goes, I think he would probably be like most 'armor' crewman of the time, putting personal gear outside the vehicle to allow for ammo and more important equipment inside. Is there space between the anti-RPG screens and the Cougar's outer skin? I would think that would be perfect as it would allow the outer gear to be lashed with cords, ropes, or whatever. Maybe some storage boxes later?

J

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 235):

That was a contingency plan? OOPS! :)

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 238):

Gear can be secured outside on the deck or on the side hull. The turret probably even has a basket in back to store stuff. Hawke was talking about medical supplies, which would probably not take up too much space.

Your character is done, I have to transfer him. He has some basic Construction, which is also general engineering, enough to judge the worthiness of structures. He's a good tank gunner, pretty fair driver and support weapons gunner. (So, he could find himself packing a SAW or GPMG when not in the vehicle.)

The typical pattern would be for Darek to act as vehicle commander (VC), and gunner when necessary. Tremblay can act as vehicle gunner (VG), probably we can bring in Fox as primary vehicle driver (VD). (Fox is an NPC that's been doing other things but can be returned to the team. The usual LAV driver was Rachel Lee, but as she and Kelsey were lovers Lee had to be transferred off the team to avoid fraternisation.)

As for Poland's "contingency plan" for national survival, that has a lot to recommend it! The sealed "love bunker" of the Apocalypse!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 240):

Tony:

I see the Bradleys and AAVs in Iraq in pictures and they have the soldiers gear strapped on them. I just assumed that it was the same for the crew of the Cougar. Maybe less, as they are operating closer to 'home'.

We've been doing the 'love bunker' thing for years. I didn't know it was a contingency. I just thought it was SOP. :)

J

The Pegaso BMR is a 6x6 wheeled armoured personnel carrier produced in Spain starting 1979:




In 1996 the fleet was modernised with new engines from Scania. The lighter engine allowed the implementation of extra armor. The experience in Yugoslavia dictated the need for that extra storage. An additional stowage cage was mounted on the right side of the hull roof with a larger stowage cage mounted on the hull roof at the rear, this extends over the rear of the hull:




The sorage of personal gear is compounded when the vehicle has a larger crew. The Marines very own Assault Amphibious Vehicle (formerly known as LVTP-70:



Due to its 3+25 configuration, the placement of backpacks, etc in the exterior of the vehicle was mandatory only to be turned to pieces during the Battle of Nasiriyah. Eight of them were disabled or destroyed when they faced RPG, mortar, tank and artillery fire.

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 242):

I think hanging stuff off the vehicles is fine. You don't see that with Cougars that are Peacekeeping, but they're operating from a base of some kind.

Man... I don't think we have hardly any of our network of Cold War bunkers any more. Most were decommissioned in the 90's. The one closest to Ottawa (CFB Carp) is a museum, I imagine in the case of zombie pandemic they could recommission it quickly enough!

The Hells Angels (HAs) tried to buy one of the fallout bunkers on Vancouver Island that were being decommissioned, I shit you not. (Either the government one at CFB Esquimalt or the military one near CFB Comox.) The government ended up bulldozing it or burying it due to the outcry.

Tony

Bunker in Nanaimo:

(Nanaimo is located in Vancouver Island. "Diefenbunker" moniker denotes the historical time when they were built under Prime Minister Diefenbaker serving from June 21, 1957, to April 22, 1963):

http://www.nanaimoinformation....3bcf6c4926244d1f4452

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 242):

Javier:

I think the people that design AFVs and IFVs should have to live in one for a week. I think if they did, you would see a lot more 'creature comfort' changes in them, like storage racks and what not. I tell you what: I would rather have my undies singed by an RPG than my backside.

I would bet it is small, but anything in the way of me and a 58mm stream of hot molten steal is a good thing. In the event that my knickers do the trick, I would feel too dumb to accept a 'tough drawers' award, but would have no problem living the rest of my life knowing that my government issued crap died so that I might live.

AS it is now the Cougar has not name on it or artwork. I don't know if this is allowed or not, but I am guessing Darek is still used to the Communist model of 'uniformity, uniformity, uniformity'.

J

The design of Infantry Fighting Vehicleas and Armoured Personnel Carriers usually respond to the a series of requirements put up by the military establishments and then is undustry the one that would present prototypes for testing, etc.

Nowadays there is more and more commercial ventures offering products of their own based on the reflected current needs of the Armies out there following MILSPEC standards and offering also competitive features in terms of comfort, etc. Is a way more liberal market than the Cold War times and more so if we look East, of course.

But for the timeline that we are using I guess we have to stick to the old model. These vehicles were supposed to operate in organic structures like companies, battalions, regiments, etc. Obviously these combat units and supporting ones were supposed to operate together alleviating the logistical effort. So far so good. But the classic warfare doctrines of the Cold War didn't reflect the reality that will follow. Technology for the warfighter would bring more and more hardware to carry along with ancilliary equipment like batteries, etc that would increase exponentially the combat load of the troops in the field compared with yesteryear.

Then the Bear died a sudden death and the Cold War was over. The fight never stopped though. Most modern armies found themselves in "peacekeeping" positions. That includes a large array of missions, deployments and postures that little had to do with the previous doctrinal arrangement of NATO and Warsaw Pact Central Europe Fuckfest. Anything under Brigade strength would be the norm and this would put an extra strain in the logistics. Lessons learnt demonstrated the need of implementing storage solutions like the baskets in the BMR that I mentioned before.

In games like "The Morrow Project" or T2K Twilight Wars the new paradigm is ever present. The characters operate in a unit level so small that they need to carry with them everything since there will be no logistical train behind them. In my brief experience with this type of game I always encourage the importance of the logistics since the Army, as Napoleon would put it, lives and moves on their stomachs. A base vehicle like the V-150 or the "Cougar" offer very little comfort in this chapter but it will be always be more "flashy" to move around in one of those rather than pimp around a mighty TATRA Kolos 8x8 or a STAR 66 pride of Starachowice Truck Plant.

For our current game and situation the logistical aspect is not so pressing since we are the Government troops in place and we have a solid structure to conduct missions in our Area of Operations. Again we face the numbers issue as is tremendously difficult to add support and combat support units in game complicating things for the GM and making "playability" more challenging. Also, our missions are limited in scope,(time and terrain) due to the scarcity of troops.

In other order of things the "Cougar" will be baptized very soon and properly "decorated" as with the LAV III or even the BTR-70 used previously if you got the time to read previous chapters of the game. This is a tradition present in pretty much all the Armies around the world. Even highly disciplinary ones would allow certain name stencilled over the barrel, etc. Para-military units make a more liberal approach as we have seen in conflicts in Africa or the Balkans. Obviously the thugs are steered clear of strict disciplinary action. But this doesn't mean that the Soviet Army, for instance, away from the rigidity of the peacetime kaserne mentality would apply some peculiar "art" to their vehicles as they did during the Great Patriotic War:




This is how the "Vostok" Battalion went to war against Georgia more recently:

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 245):

1) The CF camouflage scheme of the day would probably have been a NATO multi-coloured pattern aka "cam". Markings would start out being simple: a small black Canadian flag and 5-digit CF Reference (CFR) number on a "licecense plate". By this point there would be much modification. Probably the CFR plate would be gone, and a New West police crest painted on.

Cougar markings:



http://www.armouredacorn.com/R...nada/AVGP-Cougar.pdf

NATO style cammied-up paint scheme:



2) As the Pattullo bridge is effectively the southern border of the city and everything past that is "Indian Country" (primarily biker territory) there would be better defences there that have been made out. I'll let the players "have their head" on this one (that is, let the reins go so the horse sets their pace and direction) and you can wonder why defenses are so light in a critical sector.

3) Darek's black armour beret has an RCMP badge. Non-standard, but the RCMP generally doesn't have armoured vehicles assigned save on an ad-hoc basis (like the Gustavson Lake stand-off).

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:44, Sat 14 July 2012.

a couple of years ago...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/...rmoured-cougars.html

As a response to heavily armed gangs, including the capture of heavy weaponry, the adoption of this type of vehicle makes sense. And more so if they come with such a low price tag!

The Vancouver Police Department also jumped in the wagon in 2007 with the purchase of the "Bearcat":



The truth of the matter is that Police units and para-military forces devoted to Law Enforcement against threat levels of superior entity are more likely to have them in their inventory. In Spain, for instance, I was familiar with the presence of a little brother (4x4) of the BMR in the hands of the Guardia Civil, a para-military type of unit heavily tasked in counter-terror operations. This type of vehicle, very similar to the V-100 family was also in use in the Air Force and Naval Infantry mostly providing base security. A few were exported to Ecuador:



This was a local product that eventually was replaced and/or complemented by the Unimog UR-416 in both "Guardia Civil" and "Policia Nacional":



In the hard years of the fight against the terrorist group ETA a few of them were lost to large explosives and anti-armor weapons like RPG-7 and the lesser known belgian RL-83 Blindicide.

The use of armoured vehicles in countries with more dubious human rights approach is nothing new. I guess our "Eastern" characters Darek and Taras would be more used to the sights of vehicles belonging to Militsyas with were created with a dual purpose: To fight dangerous criminals, provide security during mass events, and help in the case of natural disasters and other crises. Nevertheless, these units became most notably known for their brutal and sometimes lethal actions of quelling civil rights protests and riot control like the ZOMO in Poland equipped with the BTR-60 during the Martial Law.

A situation that mirrored that of the Soviet Union. OMON originated in 1979, when the first group was prepared for the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow, to ensure that there were no terrorist attacks like the Munich massacre in 1972. Then the unit was utilized in emergencies such as high-risk arrests, hostage crises, etc. The OMON detachments were often manned by former soldiers of the Soviet Army and veterans of the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Hey!  A 109!  I worked on those!  Well, in theory, at least.  In all actuality it was 99.9% 110's I worked on, but I have touched them with some mechanical intent.  That's just howitzers I am speaking of, I certainly worked on other things!

Darek!  Just having fun with the accent thing, she's pretty accustomed to Taras' accent, and if it bothers you I won't do it again.  She's being 'task oriented'.

-Lee

The M110A2 Self-Propelled 8" Howitzer.
The shells it shoots makes the 109 look like a playtoy.


This message was last edited by the player at 13:29, Mon 16 July 2012.

I remember that a few remaining M-107 ATP (175 mm) in the Spanish Army were converted into M-110s. They were in service in a divisional fire regiment until recently (2009). It's a pity that the presence of heavy calibers in artillery in NATO never came close to match that of the Warsaw Pact.

While the Red Block was fielding heavy artillery units with new equipment during the '70s and 80's like the 2S7 "Pion" (203 mm) and 2S4 "Tyulpan" (240 mm) it seems like the older Western models never got a real replacement and the 155 mm caliber started to remain staple.

Too bad the canadian artillery genius of Gerald Bull was never properly recognised in the West and he went to work with the dark force meeting his tragic fate while doing so. He not only brought a real revolution in artillery with the development of extended range projectiles (Base Bleed technology) but he also designed entire platforms like the Al-Fao in 210 mm.




From wikipedia:

Al-Fao is a self-propelled artillery system designed for the Iraqi Army by the late Canadian weapons engineer, Gerald Bull. It is one of the world's most powerful artillery pieces, with a caliber of 210 mm and a range of 56,000 metres (35 miles). The Al-Fao weighs 48 tons and is claimed to be able to fire four 109 kg (240 lb) rounds a minute, with a top speed of about 72 km/h (44 mph) attainable on the road. Its projectiles could be filled with chemical weapons such as sarin, mustard or phosgene gases as well as conventional high explosives.

The weapon is named after the Al-Faw peninsula in southern Iraq, which was the scene of heavy fighting during the Iran–Iraq War in the 1980s. (The difference in spelling is due to differing transliterations of the Arabic name.)

The gun was designed and built in Europe and was first displayed publicly in Baghdad in 1989. It does not appear to have entered into Iraqi service, however and none were captured during the 1991 Gulf War; the programme was probably cancelled thereafter. It was similar in design to the South African G6 howitzer, with which Bull was also involved as a designer, and appears to have been directly inspired by that system. Interestingly the Al-Fao, sometimes referred to as G7, was a wheeled mount. While G6 is already a big and heavy SP, Al-Fao is even bigger. To handle the howitzer's recoil, the wheeled platform was not robust enough, so a very large muzzle brake had to be fitted. The Al-Fao was one of two similar self-propelled howitzers developed by Bull for the Iraqis, the other being the Al-Majnoon 155 mm howitzer.

The 110 is a short tube 203 (8"), while the 110A2 is a long tube 203.  8" is a standard in the US, partly because the rounds and powder were interchangable with naval rounds.

There was also a RAP round (Rocket Assisted Projectile) that was used.

203 and 155 were the US standard in Field Artillery until 1980 when the SPL was released, putting in the field MLRS, which is far superiour to standard cannon artillery.  Most brigade support artillery consisted of heavy (12 gun) 8" batteries.  My brigade in germany had 2 battalions with 3 heavy 8" batteries (36 8" 110A2 per battalion), and one Battalion of MLRS.  That was in the mid 80's.

Standard Artillery batteries within units were usually 6 gun batteries.

The M110 series were phased out in the early 90's, and all 110 units were changed over to MLRS.  I've heard of the 107's  (175mm), but they were used with the 110, not the 110A2, they used to be able to swap barrels and change up the round size.  The 107 was already retired by the mid 80's, by the time I was in the service.

Let the western bloc have their bigger cannons, we had Grid Smashers.  (Each SPL is capable of 'smashing flat' one square kilometer, with one volley.)  I think the US went beyond cannon.



This message was last edited by the player at 01:27, Tue 17 July 2012.

I believe the loss of the far reaching M-107 made mandatory to "enlarge" the M-110 to somehow bridge the gap. They shared same chassis after all. Seems like the M-578 is one of the few legacies of the 107s. as well.

In my opinion, I don't see the Multiple Rocket Launcher as a replacement for the old tube artillery. I see it as a different weapon with different missions in mind. The "grid remover" is a very aptly definition. But MLRS have also their limitations in terms of intrinsec accuracy (at least in the '80s), cost, reloading and overall logistics effort. Also the MLRS lack the flexibility of tube artillery to switch from offensive to defensive missions, etc. In the end, rather they complement each other. The fact is that the West was late to catch up with the rocket artillery threat of the Warsaw Pact. The first M-270 were fielded in 1983. By then, the 34th Guards artillery Division in Postdam, the flagship of artillery in the GSFG, was already experienced fielding an entire Brigade of 72-launchers BM-27. The Brigade had 4 Battalions with three firing batteries each. Each battery sporting 6 launchers.



As an anecdote regarding MRLs, South Africa went to acquired the G-5 and G-6s , ( both artillery tube) designed by Gerald Bull to counter the threat of the humble BM-21 "Grad" at that point far more effective than anything that the more modern South African Army had in artillery inventory!

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 252):

The 110A2 had the longer tube for better accuracy and range, and RAP round for more still, not that you could do sustained fire with them.  I know our gunners could hit a target the size of a garbage can at 23 miles consistantly.

As far as MLRS, the kinds of units I was in carried 4 firing batteries of 8 SPL each.  MLRS uses the Hemmett as it's ammo carrier.

I drove a 578 man!  We called them a VTR, "Vehicle, Track Recovery"

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 246):

That says 'On to Berlin' on the side of that T-34 if anybody cares :)

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 249):

Lee:

Are you kidding? I want MORE of that kind of talk. You Westerners. You're so sensitive to the needs of others. :) Real people, from all over the world, have preferences, biases, and prejudices. Some people just don't like other people. I think it would be fair to say that Taras and Darek might be respected in the group, but would probably be seen as outsiders no matter what they said or did. That's just how people are.

You have to think about what kind of people would still be alive in 2001. Nuclear war. Starvation. Disease. Piles of dead bodies. These are not things you just shake off. I think you have to say that people that would still be alive would be very different from people today. They would have room for a lot less bull**** and would not be very enlightened by any stretch of the imagination.

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 255):

Depends on what you mean by "enlightened."  I found myself enlightened after my first fatality.

--Hawk

Hah!  Funny!  They got there too.  Yes, thanks for translating that.




She's trying to be nice but she finds him a little confusing, and it probably isn't too off base for survivors of the actual fighting in Canada might be a little irritated by surviving invaders, even if they are on their side now.  Kel was one of the defenders on Canadian soil.

He has a bad accent, so I am rolling with it.  No worries, she's annoyed by the western bloc folks, she despises Hell's Angels for how they treat women, she has her priorities!  It's funny, but the stranded former invaders are often better people than some native survivors.

-Lee

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 256):

Hawk:

Exactly my point. The fact is, T2K is some kind of fantasy. Fuel degrades after a year, so no vehicles would be mobile at this point. The survivors would be so jaded they would probably bludgeon to death anyhting that moves. I say bludgeon because most bullets would be gone and those that know how to use them gone for a long time.

I just meant that those of us reading these words, who consider ourselves 'enlightened' or 'civilized', would have to chose between death and becoming something so radically different that we now wouldn't recognize ourselves then. It wouldn't be just a question of survival. The question would be: would we want to?

J

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 257):

Lee:

No man go with it. If anything I think she would be more hostile. If she ever met a Polish or a Ukrainian man he would make a HA look like a women's rights campaigner. No GMO foods, the men are ugly as hell, and the women look like supermodels(except for their noses, which looks like they belong on boxers and not on a petite blondes). I mean, you do the math. What would you think that set of circumstances would make a man act like?

This is an RPG, so play the role how YOU see it, not how you think others want you tp see it. I encourage everyone to use their imaginations and get as vicious as they feel. After all, we are talking about WW3 survivors, so nothing would be taboo.

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 258):

Aside from a lack of email, and no fuel for my fire trucks/ambulances, it wouldn't bother me that much.  Though Horse-drawn ambulance would make a come back.  I'd mostly be furious about the people I could have saved, but can't because of a lack of basics like oxygen in a bottle.  My family has always lived a sort of techno-19thC existence.

--Hawk

Group,

I think I run a pretty realistic game, here! Not always, but more so than your typical Twilight 2000 slugfest.

1) Gerald Bull: ah yes, Canada's very own supervillain. He was our best shot at creating an orbital death-ray laser, and the Mossad took him out. Damn you, Mossad!

2) Untreated fuel goes bad after a year or two. You have access to treated fuel stocks, which can last five years. As well, most fuel is wood-grain alcohol, of which there is a lot. You have also have access to "bio-diesel" alternative fuel cooked up by the UBC chemistry department. So fuel is realistic.

3) Love the slogan on the tanks! In '86 or so in university we were discussing the Hungarian uprising and the professor wondered about the loyalty of Soviet troops and if it was a problem. I said, judging by the "Guards" emblem on the side of the tank, not with those boys.

4) Canada is a nation of immigrants. We are very used to them here. In fact, Vancouver's population is over 50% minority, mainly immigrants. Respecting each other is an important cultural value.

5) As noticeable foreigners, Darek and Taras should experience little problem fitting in. Although they are from technically from "invader" nations Darek can point out he's a dissident Pole who immigrated to Canada before the war (and Taras is, after all, Ukrainian). But Former Soviets are a fact of life in BC, now, even if they might get razzed (hassled/teased) in a friendly way. Remember, to the natives we're the invaders and late-comers.

6) You'll find people/NPCs in Vancouver can be grumpy and of course mental illness like depression is a serious problem, but are also more self-reliant and willing to help one another. As well, most of the population was evacuated back East before the bombs dropped so there was perhaps a little more resources to go around, less wholesale death. Non-Canadians will notice that we tend to be superficially polite, but once we warm up to you are great friends.

7) It's sort of a well-trod cliche in "post-apocalypse (PA) fantasy" that disaster strips the veneer of civilisation from people and the PA will be a dog-eat-dog nightmare. Various studies show that instead, people in crisis will tend to express their cultural values and tend to instinctively pull together and cooperate. As Canadians, rebuilding, cooperation and respect for authority tends to be our forte, so I believe that's what'll happen here, realistically.

8) As part of the ongoing timeline that ties T2K to Traveller 2300/AD2300, Canada does hang in there and actually recovers quite well, dominating North America in the 21st century. It's probable some kind of political accommodation will allow Quebec to come back into the fold, while the neo-Nazis and the mass graves in Alberta are a reminder of what intolerance will bring you. As a rule, the people you meet might be a little annoyed the government hasn't been around for a few years, but generally the non-criminals will be happy to see you, even overjoyed. Treat the people with suspicion and hostility and it might work against you.

9) The RCMP Auxiliary uniform does wonders for Darek in picking up chicks. The Mounties have taken a few hits in popularity in BC over the past decade but really, people are usually very glad to see you.

10) I'd like for players to express themselves, too, with a certain amount of decorum. I don't mind some friendly friction but personal drama has not been a factor in this game.

11) On the flipside, in the months he's been in New West, Darek notices that the local militia seems to include women in all roles, and this is not measure brought on by the necessities of war and available manpower but has been in place over 10 years (the war just made it more noticeable). The various militias seem to include gays but no one seemed to make a big deal of it. (I don't think the newcomers know about Rachel and Kel yet?)

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:09, Tue 17 July 2012.

Ah right.  Kelsey and Rachel are both lesbians, but I don't know if Rachel is openly so, Kelsey is.  Kelsey is also former regular army, from an assualt infantry unit, she's no militia or reservist.  She might be good with electronics and mechanics, but she's regular infantry.

She is a smoker, and is often seen lighting her cigarettes with zippo with this logo:




Which is a well known French speaking assault infantry unit the Van Doos

The glengary she wears is from the RSR, but she still has Van Doos insignia on most of her combats.

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 260):

Hawk your family living close to the land and having those skills will probably help you coming up with the 'suprise' attack by NWO on London. Just stay away from the city centers when the west goes to war with China/Russia.

J

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 261):

Tony:

All good points my friend. We will just have to live through it and see who comes out smelling like roses and who comes out...well, just who comes out! :)

J

PS I too want to see people in a good light, I just can't in all the evidence. Talk to my girlfriend's granma some time about the German occupation all the way through the Soviet occupation if you want an infusion of realism.

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 264):

1) In my experience, Central Europeans sure are a grumpy lot! Not without cause.

2) Ambulances do have methanol fuel, although roads are a real problem. Few have been attacked, most people (even bad guys) are reluctant to prey on them.

3) Medical gear is being supplied at a trickle. Technology is around the 60's.

So, we done with the meet-and-greet? Next step!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 265):

Grumpy. That's one way to put it. :)

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 265):

In my area, despite the fact that we have winter here, I don't know of any gasoline-based ambulances, they're all diesel.

--Hawk

How did the radio installation go, any issues?

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 267):

Coincidentally, the university (UBC) is able to cook up bio-diesel in sufficient quantities to power emergency vehicles. Or, dropping in a gasoline-powered motor into a Ford truck engine compartment is not rocket science.

Lee: I can't think it would take very long or be difficult. They are similar vehicles, these are CF-standard radio sets.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 269):

Tony:

Ah ah ah, never take anything for granted my friend, especially in war-torn Western Canada!

J

Jozek,

A very fair point! The bio-diesel fuel supply is a well-established part of the background, not something pulled out of my ass (although to be clear I'm not above doing that). The Cougar and LAV III were made in the same factory, the radios are all standard CF issue (if not manufacture) so no potential issues there.

Tony

I agree that it's not rocket science.  [kibbitz]I wonder, however, as a user of aforementioned ambulances, what the performance of a gasoline-powered ambulance would be, because it relies heavily on the generator, both when it's in motion, and when it's not.[/kibbbitz]

--Hawk

Unsure.  I've seen a few tactical ambulances in use, one of them was mogas run.  They do tend to use fuel a bit faster due to the heavier load, they carry multiple or heavier duty generators under the hood.  (I've worked with HMMWV, CUCV, 'power wagon' 880, and Gamma Goat ambulances.)

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 271):

Tony's colon aside, I have a real problem with the idea that vehicles would still be operational just because you can smoke a corn cob and call it petrol. Engines have lubricants, they use gaskets, and there is a miriad of subsystems that require hydraulic fluid, brake fluid, etc etc.

I know, I know, it's a game. I get it. Still, I'm just saying.

J

Lubricants can be produced using the Fischer-Tropp process or by using mineral oils. Hydraulic fluid is based on rapeseed oil and should be able to be manufactured. Brake fluid can use the same rapeseed oil or, better, a glycol-ethyl based substance that could be created as a by-product of crating ethanol.

As for gaskets, I used to make them out of cereal packets when we were really poor.

Now I'm not saying that any of this is easy, but given the level of organisation at UBC, it seems feasible that it could still be going on.

I also found out the the F-T process works using wood and that most fuel created by the Germans using the process was created from wood as coal was a strategic resource. I've only seen this mentioned in one source so I need to research it more before I'm happy with it as a concept.

Add to this:

The current population level is much less than it was previously in game, and there is a LOT left over that can be used.  This is only about two years after the war, there will be plenty of salvage available for many things like brake fluid for some time to come.

As far as tactical vehicles, many of the items listed as upkeep worries I know many ways around it.  Any GOOD tactical vehicle doesn't require supplies like those on a steady basis.  I know your Average 2 1/2 Ton M35 Kaiser built cargo truck gets an oil change ever decade or so, rarely needs brake or hydraulic fluid (years without) and distilled water (easily found) is the only thing needed for upkeep on it's batteries.  Sure, you will want to top off the motor oil every few months, check the gear oil once a year, but those supplies are not hard to come by, even two years after an apocalypse, ESPECIALLY in an area with a seriously depleted population.

A well designed military vehicle requires maintenance, but surprisingly few supplies, and what supplies they need I am certain can be scavenged from deadlined or abandoned vehicles.  It would shock me if they have in use more than one in four that is on hand.

Now, while this logistical discussion is sort of interesting, I am seeing four times as many OOC posts as IC posts.

PLEASE!  Can we get back to the game?


BTW, for qualifications on my judgements, I was a mechanic for the US Army for 8 years, and I am well aware of the tolerances of tactical equipment.

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 274):

It would not be easy, but I believe it's possible to keep at least some vehicles running using salvaged, stored or improvised parts. God forbid we ever need to find out!

Bear in mind that Australia is not nuked in this timeline. There was severe EMP damage to parts of the infrastructure (mainly electrical power) but it has recovered enough to supply a small, if steady, amount of synthetic and petrochemicals.

The local ambulances are running on diesel (smells like cooking oil?) so that's not really an issue. But interesting to note that there might be problems with a gasoline engine.

So you guys are heading straight into the unknown? Not a problem, works for me! I'm not clear on what vehicles, weapons and supplies you are taking. Also, the crew for the Cougar is Wayne vehicle driver (VD), Tremblay is vehicle gunner (VG) and Darek is Vehicle Commander (VC)?

Important: as a GM rule, please no cross-posting OOC comments in the IC thread. If you feel the need, at least post some kind if IC action to justify that post!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 277):

A lot of things to think about. Sorry Ton will try to post in the right spot from now on! :)

J

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 277):

Tony,

Updated my message for the Call Signs.

We have

FOXTROT or FOX Element

1 - Net ops  (Kel)
2 - Vehicle Commander (derik)
3 - Driver (wayne)
5 - Gunner (Tremb)
6 - Commander (Taras)
11 - Sniper lead n XO (Andy)
12 - Sniper spot (Mac)

Base:

Lima 1 - Net ops
Lima 6 - Bellanger/CO
Lima 11 - XO

Lima 7 - scouts/spotter