The design of Infantry Fighting Vehicleas and Armoured Personnel Carriers usually respond to the a series of requirements put up by the military establishments and then is undustry the one that would present prototypes for testing, etc.

Nowadays there is more and more commercial ventures offering products of their own based on the reflected current needs of the Armies out there following MILSPEC standards and offering also competitive features in terms of comfort, etc. Is a way more liberal market than the Cold War times and more so if we look East, of course.

But for the timeline that we are using I guess we have to stick to the old model. These vehicles were supposed to operate in organic structures like companies, battalions, regiments, etc. Obviously these combat units and supporting ones were supposed to operate together alleviating the logistical effort. So far so good. But the classic warfare doctrines of the Cold War didn't reflect the reality that will follow. Technology for the warfighter would bring more and more hardware to carry along with ancilliary equipment like batteries, etc that would increase exponentially the combat load of the troops in the field compared with yesteryear.

Then the Bear died a sudden death and the Cold War was over. The fight never stopped though. Most modern armies found themselves in "peacekeeping" positions. That includes a large array of missions, deployments and postures that little had to do with the previous doctrinal arrangement of NATO and Warsaw Pact Central Europe Fuckfest. Anything under Brigade strength would be the norm and this would put an extra strain in the logistics. Lessons learnt demonstrated the need of implementing storage solutions like the baskets in the BMR that I mentioned before.

In games like "The Morrow Project" or T2K Twilight Wars the new paradigm is ever present. The characters operate in a unit level so small that they need to carry with them everything since there will be no logistical train behind them. In my brief experience with this type of game I always encourage the importance of the logistics since the Army, as Napoleon would put it, lives and moves on their stomachs. A base vehicle like the V-150 or the "Cougar" offer very little comfort in this chapter but it will be always be more "flashy" to move around in one of those rather than pimp around a mighty TATRA Kolos 8x8 or a STAR 66 pride of Starachowice Truck Plant.

For our current game and situation the logistical aspect is not so pressing since we are the Government troops in place and we have a solid structure to conduct missions in our Area of Operations. Again we face the numbers issue as is tremendously difficult to add support and combat support units in game complicating things for the GM and making "playability" more challenging. Also, our missions are limited in scope,(time and terrain) due to the scarcity of troops.

In other order of things the "Cougar" will be baptized very soon and properly "decorated" as with the LAV III or even the BTR-70 used previously if you got the time to read previous chapters of the game. This is a tradition present in pretty much all the Armies around the world. Even highly disciplinary ones would allow certain name stencilled over the barrel, etc. Para-military units make a more liberal approach as we have seen in conflicts in Africa or the Balkans. Obviously the thugs are steered clear of strict disciplinary action. But this doesn't mean that the Soviet Army, for instance, away from the rigidity of the peacetime kaserne mentality would apply some peculiar "art" to their vehicles as they did during the Great Patriotic War:




This is how the "Vostok" Battalion went to war against Georgia more recently:

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 245):

1) The CF camouflage scheme of the day would probably have been a NATO multi-coloured pattern aka "cam". Markings would start out being simple: a small black Canadian flag and 5-digit CF Reference (CFR) number on a "licecense plate". By this point there would be much modification. Probably the CFR plate would be gone, and a New West police crest painted on.

Cougar markings:



http://www.armouredacorn.com/R...nada/AVGP-Cougar.pdf

NATO style cammied-up paint scheme:



2) As the Pattullo bridge is effectively the southern border of the city and everything past that is "Indian Country" (primarily biker territory) there would be better defences there that have been made out. I'll let the players "have their head" on this one (that is, let the reins go so the horse sets their pace and direction) and you can wonder why defenses are so light in a critical sector.

3) Darek's black armour beret has an RCMP badge. Non-standard, but the RCMP generally doesn't have armoured vehicles assigned save on an ad-hoc basis (like the Gustavson Lake stand-off).

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:44, Sat 14 July 2012.

a couple of years ago...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/...rmoured-cougars.html

As a response to heavily armed gangs, including the capture of heavy weaponry, the adoption of this type of vehicle makes sense. And more so if they come with such a low price tag!

The Vancouver Police Department also jumped in the wagon in 2007 with the purchase of the "Bearcat":



The truth of the matter is that Police units and para-military forces devoted to Law Enforcement against threat levels of superior entity are more likely to have them in their inventory. In Spain, for instance, I was familiar with the presence of a little brother (4x4) of the BMR in the hands of the Guardia Civil, a para-military type of unit heavily tasked in counter-terror operations. This type of vehicle, very similar to the V-100 family was also in use in the Air Force and Naval Infantry mostly providing base security. A few were exported to Ecuador:



This was a local product that eventually was replaced and/or complemented by the Unimog UR-416 in both "Guardia Civil" and "Policia Nacional":



In the hard years of the fight against the terrorist group ETA a few of them were lost to large explosives and anti-armor weapons like RPG-7 and the lesser known belgian RL-83 Blindicide.

The use of armoured vehicles in countries with more dubious human rights approach is nothing new. I guess our "Eastern" characters Darek and Taras would be more used to the sights of vehicles belonging to Militsyas with were created with a dual purpose: To fight dangerous criminals, provide security during mass events, and help in the case of natural disasters and other crises. Nevertheless, these units became most notably known for their brutal and sometimes lethal actions of quelling civil rights protests and riot control like the ZOMO in Poland equipped with the BTR-60 during the Martial Law.

A situation that mirrored that of the Soviet Union. OMON originated in 1979, when the first group was prepared for the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow, to ensure that there were no terrorist attacks like the Munich massacre in 1972. Then the unit was utilized in emergencies such as high-risk arrests, hostage crises, etc. The OMON detachments were often manned by former soldiers of the Soviet Army and veterans of the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Hey!  A 109!  I worked on those!  Well, in theory, at least.  In all actuality it was 99.9% 110's I worked on, but I have touched them with some mechanical intent.  That's just howitzers I am speaking of, I certainly worked on other things!

Darek!  Just having fun with the accent thing, she's pretty accustomed to Taras' accent, and if it bothers you I won't do it again.  She's being 'task oriented'.

-Lee

The M110A2 Self-Propelled 8" Howitzer.
The shells it shoots makes the 109 look like a playtoy.


This message was last edited by the player at 13:29, Mon 16 July 2012.

I remember that a few remaining M-107 ATP (175 mm) in the Spanish Army were converted into M-110s. They were in service in a divisional fire regiment until recently (2009). It's a pity that the presence of heavy calibers in artillery in NATO never came close to match that of the Warsaw Pact.

While the Red Block was fielding heavy artillery units with new equipment during the '70s and 80's like the 2S7 "Pion" (203 mm) and 2S4 "Tyulpan" (240 mm) it seems like the older Western models never got a real replacement and the 155 mm caliber started to remain staple.

Too bad the canadian artillery genius of Gerald Bull was never properly recognised in the West and he went to work with the dark force meeting his tragic fate while doing so. He not only brought a real revolution in artillery with the development of extended range projectiles (Base Bleed technology) but he also designed entire platforms like the Al-Fao in 210 mm.




From wikipedia:

Al-Fao is a self-propelled artillery system designed for the Iraqi Army by the late Canadian weapons engineer, Gerald Bull. It is one of the world's most powerful artillery pieces, with a caliber of 210 mm and a range of 56,000 metres (35 miles). The Al-Fao weighs 48 tons and is claimed to be able to fire four 109 kg (240 lb) rounds a minute, with a top speed of about 72 km/h (44 mph) attainable on the road. Its projectiles could be filled with chemical weapons such as sarin, mustard or phosgene gases as well as conventional high explosives.

The weapon is named after the Al-Faw peninsula in southern Iraq, which was the scene of heavy fighting during the Iran–Iraq War in the 1980s. (The difference in spelling is due to differing transliterations of the Arabic name.)

The gun was designed and built in Europe and was first displayed publicly in Baghdad in 1989. It does not appear to have entered into Iraqi service, however and none were captured during the 1991 Gulf War; the programme was probably cancelled thereafter. It was similar in design to the South African G6 howitzer, with which Bull was also involved as a designer, and appears to have been directly inspired by that system. Interestingly the Al-Fao, sometimes referred to as G7, was a wheeled mount. While G6 is already a big and heavy SP, Al-Fao is even bigger. To handle the howitzer's recoil, the wheeled platform was not robust enough, so a very large muzzle brake had to be fitted. The Al-Fao was one of two similar self-propelled howitzers developed by Bull for the Iraqis, the other being the Al-Majnoon 155 mm howitzer.

The 110 is a short tube 203 (8"), while the 110A2 is a long tube 203.  8" is a standard in the US, partly because the rounds and powder were interchangable with naval rounds.

There was also a RAP round (Rocket Assisted Projectile) that was used.

203 and 155 were the US standard in Field Artillery until 1980 when the SPL was released, putting in the field MLRS, which is far superiour to standard cannon artillery.  Most brigade support artillery consisted of heavy (12 gun) 8" batteries.  My brigade in germany had 2 battalions with 3 heavy 8" batteries (36 8" 110A2 per battalion), and one Battalion of MLRS.  That was in the mid 80's.

Standard Artillery batteries within units were usually 6 gun batteries.

The M110 series were phased out in the early 90's, and all 110 units were changed over to MLRS.  I've heard of the 107's  (175mm), but they were used with the 110, not the 110A2, they used to be able to swap barrels and change up the round size.  The 107 was already retired by the mid 80's, by the time I was in the service.

Let the western bloc have their bigger cannons, we had Grid Smashers.  (Each SPL is capable of 'smashing flat' one square kilometer, with one volley.)  I think the US went beyond cannon.



This message was last edited by the player at 01:27, Tue 17 July 2012.

I believe the loss of the far reaching M-107 made mandatory to "enlarge" the M-110 to somehow bridge the gap. They shared same chassis after all. Seems like the M-578 is one of the few legacies of the 107s. as well.

In my opinion, I don't see the Multiple Rocket Launcher as a replacement for the old tube artillery. I see it as a different weapon with different missions in mind. The "grid remover" is a very aptly definition. But MLRS have also their limitations in terms of intrinsec accuracy (at least in the '80s), cost, reloading and overall logistics effort. Also the MLRS lack the flexibility of tube artillery to switch from offensive to defensive missions, etc. In the end, rather they complement each other. The fact is that the West was late to catch up with the rocket artillery threat of the Warsaw Pact. The first M-270 were fielded in 1983. By then, the 34th Guards artillery Division in Postdam, the flagship of artillery in the GSFG, was already experienced fielding an entire Brigade of 72-launchers BM-27. The Brigade had 4 Battalions with three firing batteries each. Each battery sporting 6 launchers.



As an anecdote regarding MRLs, South Africa went to acquired the G-5 and G-6s , ( both artillery tube) designed by Gerald Bull to counter the threat of the humble BM-21 "Grad" at that point far more effective than anything that the more modern South African Army had in artillery inventory!

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 252):

The 110A2 had the longer tube for better accuracy and range, and RAP round for more still, not that you could do sustained fire with them.  I know our gunners could hit a target the size of a garbage can at 23 miles consistantly.

As far as MLRS, the kinds of units I was in carried 4 firing batteries of 8 SPL each.  MLRS uses the Hemmett as it's ammo carrier.

I drove a 578 man!  We called them a VTR, "Vehicle, Track Recovery"

In reply to Taras Vladimirovich Shevchenko (msg # 246):

That says 'On to Berlin' on the side of that T-34 if anybody cares :)

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 249):

Lee:

Are you kidding? I want MORE of that kind of talk. You Westerners. You're so sensitive to the needs of others. :) Real people, from all over the world, have preferences, biases, and prejudices. Some people just don't like other people. I think it would be fair to say that Taras and Darek might be respected in the group, but would probably be seen as outsiders no matter what they said or did. That's just how people are.

You have to think about what kind of people would still be alive in 2001. Nuclear war. Starvation. Disease. Piles of dead bodies. These are not things you just shake off. I think you have to say that people that would still be alive would be very different from people today. They would have room for a lot less bull**** and would not be very enlightened by any stretch of the imagination.

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 255):

Depends on what you mean by "enlightened."  I found myself enlightened after my first fatality.

--Hawk

Hah!  Funny!  They got there too.  Yes, thanks for translating that.




She's trying to be nice but she finds him a little confusing, and it probably isn't too off base for survivors of the actual fighting in Canada might be a little irritated by surviving invaders, even if they are on their side now.  Kel was one of the defenders on Canadian soil.

He has a bad accent, so I am rolling with it.  No worries, she's annoyed by the western bloc folks, she despises Hell's Angels for how they treat women, she has her priorities!  It's funny, but the stranded former invaders are often better people than some native survivors.

-Lee

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 256):

Hawk:

Exactly my point. The fact is, T2K is some kind of fantasy. Fuel degrades after a year, so no vehicles would be mobile at this point. The survivors would be so jaded they would probably bludgeon to death anyhting that moves. I say bludgeon because most bullets would be gone and those that know how to use them gone for a long time.

I just meant that those of us reading these words, who consider ourselves 'enlightened' or 'civilized', would have to chose between death and becoming something so radically different that we now wouldn't recognize ourselves then. It wouldn't be just a question of survival. The question would be: would we want to?

J

In reply to Kelsey Sarah Champlain (msg # 257):

Lee:

No man go with it. If anything I think she would be more hostile. If she ever met a Polish or a Ukrainian man he would make a HA look like a women's rights campaigner. No GMO foods, the men are ugly as hell, and the women look like supermodels(except for their noses, which looks like they belong on boxers and not on a petite blondes). I mean, you do the math. What would you think that set of circumstances would make a man act like?

This is an RPG, so play the role how YOU see it, not how you think others want you tp see it. I encourage everyone to use their imaginations and get as vicious as they feel. After all, we are talking about WW3 survivors, so nothing would be taboo.

J

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 258):

Aside from a lack of email, and no fuel for my fire trucks/ambulances, it wouldn't bother me that much.  Though Horse-drawn ambulance would make a come back.  I'd mostly be furious about the people I could have saved, but can't because of a lack of basics like oxygen in a bottle.  My family has always lived a sort of techno-19thC existence.

--Hawk

Group,

I think I run a pretty realistic game, here! Not always, but more so than your typical Twilight 2000 slugfest.

1) Gerald Bull: ah yes, Canada's very own supervillain. He was our best shot at creating an orbital death-ray laser, and the Mossad took him out. Damn you, Mossad!

2) Untreated fuel goes bad after a year or two. You have access to treated fuel stocks, which can last five years. As well, most fuel is wood-grain alcohol, of which there is a lot. You have also have access to "bio-diesel" alternative fuel cooked up by the UBC chemistry department. So fuel is realistic.

3) Love the slogan on the tanks! In '86 or so in university we were discussing the Hungarian uprising and the professor wondered about the loyalty of Soviet troops and if it was a problem. I said, judging by the "Guards" emblem on the side of the tank, not with those boys.

4) Canada is a nation of immigrants. We are very used to them here. In fact, Vancouver's population is over 50% minority, mainly immigrants. Respecting each other is an important cultural value.

5) As noticeable foreigners, Darek and Taras should experience little problem fitting in. Although they are from technically from "invader" nations Darek can point out he's a dissident Pole who immigrated to Canada before the war (and Taras is, after all, Ukrainian). But Former Soviets are a fact of life in BC, now, even if they might get razzed (hassled/teased) in a friendly way. Remember, to the natives we're the invaders and late-comers.

6) You'll find people/NPCs in Vancouver can be grumpy and of course mental illness like depression is a serious problem, but are also more self-reliant and willing to help one another. As well, most of the population was evacuated back East before the bombs dropped so there was perhaps a little more resources to go around, less wholesale death. Non-Canadians will notice that we tend to be superficially polite, but once we warm up to you are great friends.

7) It's sort of a well-trod cliche in "post-apocalypse (PA) fantasy" that disaster strips the veneer of civilisation from people and the PA will be a dog-eat-dog nightmare. Various studies show that instead, people in crisis will tend to express their cultural values and tend to instinctively pull together and cooperate. As Canadians, rebuilding, cooperation and respect for authority tends to be our forte, so I believe that's what'll happen here, realistically.

8) As part of the ongoing timeline that ties T2K to Traveller 2300/AD2300, Canada does hang in there and actually recovers quite well, dominating North America in the 21st century. It's probable some kind of political accommodation will allow Quebec to come back into the fold, while the neo-Nazis and the mass graves in Alberta are a reminder of what intolerance will bring you. As a rule, the people you meet might be a little annoyed the government hasn't been around for a few years, but generally the non-criminals will be happy to see you, even overjoyed. Treat the people with suspicion and hostility and it might work against you.

9) The RCMP Auxiliary uniform does wonders for Darek in picking up chicks. The Mounties have taken a few hits in popularity in BC over the past decade but really, people are usually very glad to see you.

10) I'd like for players to express themselves, too, with a certain amount of decorum. I don't mind some friendly friction but personal drama has not been a factor in this game.

11) On the flipside, in the months he's been in New West, Darek notices that the local militia seems to include women in all roles, and this is not measure brought on by the necessities of war and available manpower but has been in place over 10 years (the war just made it more noticeable). The various militias seem to include gays but no one seemed to make a big deal of it. (I don't think the newcomers know about Rachel and Kel yet?)

Tony
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:09, Tue 17 July 2012.

Ah right.  Kelsey and Rachel are both lesbians, but I don't know if Rachel is openly so, Kelsey is.  Kelsey is also former regular army, from an assualt infantry unit, she's no militia or reservist.  She might be good with electronics and mechanics, but she's regular infantry.

She is a smoker, and is often seen lighting her cigarettes with zippo with this logo:




Which is a well known French speaking assault infantry unit the Van Doos

The glengary she wears is from the RSR, but she still has Van Doos insignia on most of her combats.

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 260):

Hawk your family living close to the land and having those skills will probably help you coming up with the 'suprise' attack by NWO on London. Just stay away from the city centers when the west goes to war with China/Russia.

J

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 261):

Tony:

All good points my friend. We will just have to live through it and see who comes out smelling like roses and who comes out...well, just who comes out! :)

J

PS I too want to see people in a good light, I just can't in all the evidence. Talk to my girlfriend's granma some time about the German occupation all the way through the Soviet occupation if you want an infusion of realism.

In reply to Darek Sochacki (msg # 264):

1) In my experience, Central Europeans sure are a grumpy lot! Not without cause.

2) Ambulances do have methanol fuel, although roads are a real problem. Few have been attacked, most people (even bad guys) are reluctant to prey on them.

3) Medical gear is being supplied at a trickle. Technology is around the 60's.

So, we done with the meet-and-greet? Next step!

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 265):

Grumpy. That's one way to put it. :)

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 265):

In my area, despite the fact that we have winter here, I don't know of any gasoline-based ambulances, they're all diesel.

--Hawk

How did the radio installation go, any issues?

In reply to William Hawke (msg # 267):

Coincidentally, the university (UBC) is able to cook up bio-diesel in sufficient quantities to power emergency vehicles. Or, dropping in a gasoline-powered motor into a Ford truck engine compartment is not rocket science.

Lee: I can't think it would take very long or be difficult. They are similar vehicles, these are CF-standard radio sets.

Tony

In reply to helbent4 (msg # 269):

Tony:

Ah ah ah, never take anything for granted my friend, especially in war-torn Western Canada!

J