The rotation thing isn't important. You have been able to keep active under tough conditions. If we have to work around that a little bit I think it is well worth it. Stay safe and keep your head down.

Agreed 100% with Marc.

The PKM is listed at 100 rounds in the stores thread. Since then I think Meyer has fired 3 sets of 15 round bursts each time... so 45 rounds since the ambush started. Can I get a confirmation to it having 55 rounds remaining?

The stores thread is out of date. We have substantially more than that available although I don't have the exact figures with me at the moment.

Edit: On leaving Wislinka, we had 570 7.62L belted rounds assigned to the M113. Another 1000 is in the BTR linked to the coaxial PK machinegun and a full case of 7.62L unbelted is in the Bradley.
It'd be a good idea to save the link if possible for reloading with the Bradley stocks.

As for 7.62mmN, we've got around 2800 rounds split between the M2, M113 and Humvee (and a couple of hundred given to the Germans).
This message was last edited by the player at 04:58, Sun 26 Apr 2009.

There's two BG-1 launchers and half a dozen HE grenades in the BTR also.

Coming in the immediate future. Summer school (which I am working) ends in 2 days. After that I plan using my extra free time on revamping the stores layout to make it simpler and easier for me to keep it up to date.

Heading out for four days in a few hours.

My characters are definitely getting a lot more action than I am.  :)  I guess I'm pretty thankful for that, actually.

Although they're listed as separate items, the four grenade launchers we have (2xM203 & 2xBG-1) should still be attached to rifles (M16A2 and AK-74).

Firstly, the BTR machineguns (KPV and PKM) are located above the gunners seat - the gunner sits inside the hull of the vehicle and uses a periscope.



Secondly, there is no gunners hatch - they use the side doors or rear passenger/cargo hatches just like the passengers.

Thirdly, Varis is still in the drivers seat, he's just poked his head and shoulders out to provide a better view and pop off a few rounds with his rifle.

Fourthly, you only need take a look at what's happened to the Humvee to see the value of armour, even light armour like the BTR or M113. Getting out is not a particularly good idea.

Currently, all the vehicles (although probably not the UAZ or Humvee so much) are providing valuable fire support - this doesn't mean they need to actually be firing, just ready to do so at a moments notice. It also doesn't have to actually inflict any casualties, just prevent the enemy firing accurately, or leaving cover. It's usually the infantry's role to close with the enemy and do the real damage.

Message updated to reflect the situation better.

Feel free to report any/all that to him IC.

Got back early, but will likely leave sooner than my two 'normal' two days.

Bear with me.  Post for me as you need to.  Glad I was able to sneak one in.

Varis asked for permission to dismount as soon as the BTR stopped moving. I'm with Oskar on this- an immobile, thinly armored APC is dead meat. We need to get dynamic.

Staying put in static, buttoned-up armor in an urban setting is like rolling around in honey and laying on an ant's nest. Look at what happened to the Russians in Grozny at the start of the first Chechnyan war.

The BTR either needs to get moving again or Varis and Oskar need to dismount.

I'm only posting this because Varis has already stated his desire IC and someone else brought it up.

Perhaps I shouldn't post after having a glass of wine...

Not to mention the GM I think has given us subtle hint that not all of the enemy are accounted for. Probably means they are repositioning out of view. We've gave some heavy return fire, but I wouldn't get too comfortable in thinking we wiped em all out.



Absolutely not. If anything MORE. Don't you think it would only reflect crazy ol' Varis better.

You havent had enough to be in character until you cant remember the next morning what you posted, then and only then do you have Varis character down.

Please note that orders were given for vehicle crews to NOT dismount. There are very good reasons for this.

Dismounting of drivers renders the vehicle immobile and therefore allows the enemy to manouver around it and attack from the best direction.

A gunner dismounting renders the vehicle toothless. A vehicle mounted weapon, especially one such as a heavy machinegun, is MUCH more effective than any personal weapon, even a GPMG (PKM, M60, M240, etc) or grenade launcher.

Vehicles such as APCs and IFVs have armour. It might not be proof against an RPG strike, although it appears the M2 has stood up fairly well, but it's certainly going to protect against near misses and anything up to, and in some cases including, a heavy machinegun.

-Dismounted soldiers are vulnerable to small arms fire and explosive weapons detonating nearby.

-Dismounted soldiers tend to move slower than vehicles.

-Dismounted soldiers cannot provide the same volume of fire as mounted weapons, nor anything near the same accuracy while under fire themselves.

Yes, vehicles attract attention, BUT a skilled driver takes advantage of the terrain (it's their responsibility for tactical placement rather than the commander). In a situation such as ours, our vehicles could, should be using other vehicle wrecks, etc as cover from the likely enemy positions while maintaining the ability to return fire.

Also, buttoning up should only be done at the commanders order, and only when receiving effective fire. So far the armoured vehicles have only suffered one hit from an RPG (presumably) and multiple ineffective hits from small arms. Therefore, there is no reason to button up and loose a vast proportion of visibility.

Infantry and dismounted units do have their place however - infantry will be a vital element of militaries from now until our sun burns itself out. They must be used with full knowledge of their limitations though, and not thrown out into harms way just because someone "feels like it" or isn't able to get a clean shot from their current position.

Military units are just that - a group of soldiers working together. There is little place for individuals. Initiative must always be encouraged, but only with reference to the overall unit picture - for example, it doesn't pay for one or two soldiers to charge and enemy position and capture it, if the aim is to actually disengage and regroup elsewhere. That only endangers the unit as a whole.

Currently, Oskar is buttoned up by definition of the vehicle he's in and his driver has left him on orders.  Not only that, but the vehicles have been parked and are immobile on orders as well.

I understand the need for combined arms and all that, but most of the sound reasons for staying in the vehicle aren't currently relevant.

I would also echo Varis - driving around an unknown and uncontrolled area with limited and sparse infantry support in a lightly-armored vehicle while an RPG team is on the loose in the area is a bad idea.  You want them supporting the infantry, not leading the charge.

There's also probably some merit in trying to draw fire away from the vehicles anyway, since they're individually more important than any infantry, but that's a pretty cold calculation.

Based off my experiences in Iraq, buttoning up is actually standard procedure once you leave the FOB or COP.  IEDs and RPGs are pretty unforgiving for exposed vehicle crews even on a near miss.

In our case in the game, I could see rolling exposed while in the open country, but I wouldn't be surprised if we buttoned up when we got close to town.

Supporting the infantry is exactly what they're doing! There's no need for the vehicles to be actually inflicting any damage on the enemy (although that would be a very nice bonus) - just the threat alone of heavy weapon fire and a dozen plus tonnes of armour capable of repositioning rapidly is often enough to keep an enemies head down.

Varis, as far as I can recall, was not given an order to dismount. To the contrary, both Ben and JJ ordered all crews to remain mounted.

While we are currently stationary, that's not a situation which is intended to last very long at all. The moment everyone is in the Humvee (can't see anyone running back to the rest of the vehicles), I'm sure we're out of there. Having to wait until crews remount is a very dangerous thing.

I can understand that buttoning up is SOP for US units today, however back in my day (early 90's) it most definately was not, at least in the Australian army. On the rare occasion we did button up, the loss of situational awareness was astounding and absolutely crippling.
We also need to remind ourselves that we're not talking about the tactics, doctrine and equipment of 2009, but what was standard for the late 90s, at least a decade before. Back then, there were lessons to be learnt we take for granted today.

Buttonned up (talking M113s here as it's what I know), drivers are limited to just the three periscopes, of which only the central one being fitted with night vision.

In the back, infantry had no ability to see outside at all, and only the section commander and 2IC might have any idea of what was going on due to being plugged into the intercom system.

The commander was little better off being restricted to just the narrow ring of periscopes ringing the base of his cupola, and vision through them often obscured by externally carried stores.

Another fine example of not buttoning up is the Isrealis - tank commanders tended to have a high casualty rate as even under heavy fire they ride with heads exposed - again for the situation awareness this allows.

It's all well and good to button up to prevent taking casualties from shrapnel, but with a very small unit with extremely limited infantry support, we need every possible set of eyes on watch that we can, to prevent, or at least minimise the chance of an enemy going undetected until it's too late. Ideally we'd have a plattoon or more of infantry sweeping the way for us, but that's as likely as rain falling upward.

Personally, I'd prefer Ben to be on the ground raising hell, doing the job he's truely trained for and certainly better suited to, but he's been assigned to M113 commander, an assignment he (aka I) take seriously. To abandon that post places everyone in jeopardy - an entire quadrant would no longer be covered.

Just to clarify, Varis is NOT DISMOUNTED. He's merely standing in his driver's hatch, looking for threats to the BTR and his comrades.

He's still wearing his tanker's helmet too. I don't know if the cord that hooks it up to the radio/intercom is long enough, though. Fuse? One way or another, he should be able to communicate with Oskar and he can always get back in and drive if need be. It should only take a turn or two to duck back down inside and start 'er up.

In response to Leg's assessment:

A parked APC like the BTR in an urban setting can not adequately defend itself. A Molotov or AT grenade dropped from above could turn the BTR into a blazing funeral pire. An RPG is not our only concern in this terrain.

Also, while I agree the firepower of the KPV is an asset that shouldn't be wasted, its limited elevation and fields of vision severely limit its abilities.

Tactically and doctrinally, an APC and its infantry should support one another. Currently, the BTR crew is supporting the dismounts (from the M113) but no infantry is supporting us. If we're watching out for them, who's watching out for us? Buttoned up and parked right next to a building, we are effectively blind and a sneaky kid with a hand grenade could take us right out of the fight.

I'll find an article but this sort of thing (armor in urban terrain unsupported by dismounted infantry) led to the annihilation of at least a battalion of Russian armor/motorized infantry during the first invasion of Grozny. By all accounts, it was a massacre. Their opponents were armed with nothing heavier than RPG-17s.

Yes, we have dismounts out, but they are a ways off and totally preoccupied with rescuing the Humvee people. The AFVs are effectivly without infantry support right now.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:26, Fri 01 May 2009.

Alright fellas I move things on. I rolled for enemy action and they've had enough. See the thread for more info.

On the topic of buttoned up or exposed... I've assumed that you were all buttoned up only once combat started. If you don't want to be, please tell me specifically how you want your PC to be considered. It'll help eliminate any misunderstandings the next time vehicle combat occurs.



I noticed both his position and the helmet issue. I didn't restrict comms either in this case.

I got word from Fox (well, the player I mean). He can't make the time and isn't sure when that'll ever improve. In any case, he's welcome to return if things work out.

Kaminski is still strangely MIA.

Tom is back (I think).
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:37, Fri 01 May 2009.

Good thing we're in a relatively open area and not within throwing range of buildings (looking at the map anyway).
Elevation shouldn't be too much of a problem unless the BTR and M2 get right in close - the M113 machinegun is mounted on an antiaircraft mount.



Although the KPV and PKM coaxial machineguns only have an elevation of 30 degrees, the above graphic shows this is more than enough for most situations.

I did take into consideration weapon elevations and even mentioned it at least once. It never got to be where the shot couldn't be taken however. I also thought about obscured vision and mentioned that a few times to those affected.

I did make an error with the map that I failed to correct. Varis plowed into a flower shop next to the intersection. It was connected to a newspaper/magazine shop. This was in the narrative but missing from the map. Sorry.

Adding in the others (Stone, Boswell & Anderson)

Kaminski - severed finger, broken wrist, concussion.
Rooke - minor/moderate bullet trauma to the arm.
Tom - battered and bruised but not requiring any real medical aid.
German Rifleman (in M113) - serious bullet trauma to neck and shoulder.
Stone - burn to the back.
Anderson - just really messed up.
Boswell - serious bullet wound to chest (I think)
This message was last edited by the player at 18:02, Fri 01 May 2009.

I noticed it in the narrative and that was why Varis was so worried about the BTR's position.

Taken from the intel report...

Marian Faction – The weakest militarily, this faction has the strongest support from the general population. This is largely a humanitarian organization, formed around the core of survivors from a Swedish mercy ship that visited the port in 1999. The vessel struck a mine in the mouth of the harbor and was beach to prevent a total loss. Since then, the survivors have established themselves in the massive St. Mary’s Church and one of the local hospitals. This small cadre of doctors, specialists and clergy provide the only medical care in the region. The Marian faction is coincidentally led by Italian-American doctor Mary Giovannetti. The similarity in her name, the name of the city's premier church and the Biblical Mary have all help created and image which has inspired the much of the population. She is seen by many as a saint or blessing. (Neutral stance on independence)

The International Brigade – Is a mix of soldiers from some of the NATO countries as well as a few Soviet republics. Many are US Marines who were trapped in the city during their unit’s withdraw and presumed lost; some are former prisoners of war that were released during the Pact general withdraw; and some are deserters. While they are the smallest faction, they are likely the best trained, equipped and combat capable. They are loosely aligned with the Marian Faction and located in the adjacent neighborhood. (Pro-independent)

Also, the intel thread was updated with this...

Kaminski's Hotel
Is situated in the Srodmiescie quarter, otherwise known as the old city center. Despite bordering the more populous neighborhoods, the ruins of Srodmiescie are quiet and largely abandoned. The hotel is a six story brick building with a walled vehicle parking lot in the back. It is staffed by thugs, prostitutes, and a tiny assortment of hotel employees. In stark contrast to the significant damage in this part of the city, the Europa Hotel (its original name) stands out as rather inhabitable. It's dirty, rundown and missing most of its windows, but its offer of food, women and a dry bed is enough for its regular, abet shady clientele.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:19, Sat 02 May 2009.

OK, by my count, five out of nine active players have chimed in. I'm not issuing any final orders until we've heard from everyone so either pipe up in IC or here, if like Varis you're asleep and are OK with things as they are (I'm assuming Varis is OK, if he isn't, say so here and I'll wake him IC).

Nothing is decided yet, the majority seem willing to go to the hospital, but nothing's finalised.