Concerning the Chris logic, I was confused too until Chris pointed out that before, you get the feat for free. Now you get the feat for free via lowered enemy defenses AND you can get the feat on top of that. It would be like adding "Special: You can take this feat one more time" under the weapon expertise feat description. Or just changing it to a +2 instead of a +1.

The "punish" is in regards to a situation where Chris is faced with some important moment where he needs a certain language to understand what's going on. "Oops. Sorry, Chris, you were too lazy to pick one, so you don't know it. I picked dwarven for you because nobody ever speaks it! Bwahahahaha!" or something.


But none of this is relevant. It doesn't matter. Let Chris play how he wants to play. The point of Chris' post is that no amount of arguing game mechanics will ever convince you of his side or him of your side. To him, you are castrating the enemies to the point of us being Chuck Norris and the enemy being a de-clawed chihuahua. To you, a level 1 mob may as well be an ancient dragon and it's all you can do to survive or hit the enemy's defenses. Neither you nor Chris will ever budge on what you feel of the game and its mechanics.

I say just play the game, hang out, roll dice, and have fun. Don't argue with each other as it A) accomplishes nothing because everyone is set in their ways and B) Just ticks people off because "I'm right and you are wrong. My logic is sound and your logic isn't even logic. Etc etc."

  New Surya Sheet MOSTLY up.  I still need to figure out the new weight/Money/inventory because the addition of 40 pounds of chainmail throws it all off as we loaded her to the brim with various survival days. I do not blame Chris at all for THAT, as this would happen no matter what.
  However, Literally half the time I've spent already has been dealing with working out the 'not in clipboard export' stuff. Once more I've had to reverse engineer to figure out what their background skill bonus choice was for example.

  Seriously, It's not making the sheets I mind.  It's to everyone's benefit that there are proper character sheets.  It's the 'I don't care.' attitude Chris has regarding anything that isn't printed out for him from a copy paste that's getting old. (My vindictive refusal to ever write a Swordmage sheet for someone else still stands).

  Short version: The only 'problem' I have with Surya is how mysterious and 'I don't understand' to me it is they changed to Wrath class features. No wrath powers picked, and Particularly as Solar enemy cant be used in same encounter as your default channel divinity (only one channel per encounter.  even Tim forgets this).

  One more time.  I'm not saying I have a problem with Chris not wanting to use House Rules freebie hit bonuses himself.  I've got enough sheets I've written for him without that to back this up.  The 'flaw' I was pointing out was Chris saying "I'm not using Staff expertise because we already have the bonus it gives, the bonus that I don't actually use.  While every other staff wielder I have uses Staff expertise in threads where you do get free expertise.".
   The other given reasons of paranoia and wanting to make sure he actually HAS an accurate staff (good worries in DS setting) I'm cool with.  Though Fletch is kind of -.-; that there is no faith the artificer can provide a staff.

    Why the change to Wrath from Preservation anyway?  You still picked Blades of astral fire which has the preservation rider.  Granted, your modifiers outside of WIS are so terrible it would make no difference at this level. (+2 AC, vs 1+1(INT) AC). Though it will lead to some controller effect woes on later powers.

EDIT: Surya sheet and DS narrator edits done.
This message was last edited by the player at 04:57, Fri 11 Nov 2011.

Had picked preservation because it was INT based, and I had dipped heavy into INT for future wizard powers.  Why wrath?  Because I like it's default "do more damage with encounters and dailies the more enemies you hit."

Blades of Astral Fire is nice because it's ally friendly and radiant.

;.; that Brilliant Beacon no get bonus from wrath.  But again... ally friendly and radiant.



Huh?  Having a hard time understanding.  The meaning in my brain keeps waffling between "Joe's saying that he's putting +2 to attack bonuses in my characters with expertise" and "Joe thinks I think that DS has free expertise."

Well I checked Mittens Wizard, and the +10 is legit character builder legal.  No free feat.  So at least I know that if I want to show off my character to friends at DnD con, they won't laugh at it being houseruled.  Not that I'd ever go to a DnD con, but still...

My objection to using a legit, character builder legal feat in DS that raises to-hit is that I'm told the monsters have already been given a penalty to their defenses.  That to me is double-dipping.  We may as well have left off the monster defenses and just doubled up the expertise feat bonuses.  Or have given every char starting stats of 22, 16, 14, 12, 12, 12.

I'm convinced that the MM3 monsters are sissy little punks compared to the overwhelming power that power-creep legitimate PCs wield.  Maaaybe against PHB1 only options, the MM3 monster might pose a threat.  Don't believe me?  Hardest fight I've ever faced in Tim's campaign was when he faced us off against "monsters" which were just PCs of our level.  +3 solo brute?  So easy he barely scratched us.  +4 encounter full of multiple enemies?  Easy peasy.  I think the fighter took all of 12 damage while we dealt out well over 400 damage.  And this with PCs that for the most part rely on inherent bonuses.

I had intended to have SoW prove to Joe and Seth that they needn't cower in abject horror when a monster with at-will ongoing damage and stuns shows up.  That they don't have to pile on a bazillion "fixes" to the game system in order for characters to survive.  In my eyes, it's been "fixed" to the point where the only challenge left is to see if fights can be reduced to 1 round.  Just look at the most recent fights in every thread for this trend.  The PCs steamroll the monsters.

So anyway.  The thing is that for me, the bigger the bullseye on the target, the less fun archery is.  Imagine playing basketball with a hoop that's 3' wide and only 7' off the ground.  Maybe fun for someone else, but less fun for me.  (By the way, Wiki says, "Wheelchair basketball retains most major rules and scoring of basketball, and maintains a 10-foot basketball hoop and standard basketball court." )

You do realize that in Dark Sun there are monsters that have at will DOMINATION...with no saves allowed.

It's not the ongoing damage and stuns that make me quiver it's the monsters that have an at will your slowed, no your immobilized, err no your helpless (like from sleep spell)...all based off a single At Will.

But I DM to tell a story that is enjoyable, not let's see how I can massacre the party. If I wanted that I'd have thrown you all against the Dragon of Tyr when your level 1.

And no I don't plan on castrating those mobs into becoming declawed kitties... I don't think you can declaw a dog...other than bringing their to hit and defenses into alignment and tweaking any damages by either saying no that isn't a dagger that does 1d10 it's a bastard sword or changing the damage dice to be what the weapon really is depending on the situation.

I guess nobody payed attention to this.

Seth. You're a great GM and a good player. I've said it before, Chris agrees.
Chris. You're a great GM and a good player. I've said this before as well.
Joe. You're a great player (but admittedly don't GM). You know I've said so before.

Isn't this enough? Let people play their characters how they want and let GMs run their games how they want. None of us are breaking Seth's rules. None of us are breaking Chris' rules. Chris makes no sense to Joe/Seth. Joe/Seth make no sense to Chris. No wall of text is going to change this. Agree to disagree and please leave it be.

Which is why you're an awesome DM.  :)

I've been stressing out about this game I'm going to run next weekend.  So here's an outline of the game I plan to run:

Part 1: Intro scene.  There's a legend of a ship.  You should go salvage your ship.
- Temporal disturbance while chasing poacher ship headed for execution arena.
- Both ships crash on mideval planet.  Local heroes rescue PCs.
- Wake in hospital.
- Told of Legend of flying building. (space ship landed here long ago)

Part 2: Monsters at the PC ship.  Salvage gear.  Fancy weapons?
Kruthik.  focus on cleave.  and little monsters.  Ship can't fly.  Need 2 components.  Can possibly salvage from enemy ship.

Part 3: Return and find your heroes had been kidnapped.  Given Key to archives that will have location of old ship.
Big monsters.  Why did they attack?  Taint of the dark side.

Part 4: Investigate site of enemy craft.  Find tracks. Find 1 component.
Rancor.  reach 2, grab.  Swallow.  Find out the darksiders were doing experiments on the monsters.

Part 5: Tracks lead to the archives.  Archives have location of old ship.
Fight Shield dudes.

Part 6: Find ship.  Boss fight.  Gain last component.  Discover old ship is from the future?  Tie into temporal disturbance earlier.
Lots of Droids.  crab droids as leutennants.  possibly a single dark jedi opponent.

I want your critiques on the PCs I create.  I've decided against the radiant mafia.  I'm going to play very very loose with the rules.  For example, I'm not even going to list PC skills.  I'll just tell them to roll a d20 when they want to do a skill check, and give a result for their roll that seems appropriate at the time.  Monsters won't have attack modifiers, I'll just pretend to roll a d20 then say "it hits" or "it misses" depending on what seems dramatic at the moment.  Primary goal is to maximize player enjoyment, so I want to give the illusion of risk without there being any real risk of party wipe.

That said, I want their character sheets to "feel" powerful when they look at them.  I want the defender to go "Look at all that HP!  Sheesh!"  I want the striker to go, "I can do THAT much damage?  Wow!"  And so forth.  So first up is the defender.  I used goliath battlerager as the template.  Picked feats and powers that would feel defenderish.  Please let me know what you think.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Goliath Battlerager, level 4
Goliath, Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Battlerager Vigor

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 18, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 16 Will: 17
HP: 56 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +8, Endurance +9, Athletics +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +3, History +2, Insight +3, Intimidate +1, Nature +5, Perception +3, Religion +2, Stealth +1, Streetwise +1, Thievery +1

FEATS
Level 1: Encouraging Shield
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Toughness

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Fighter at-will 1: Threatening Rush
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter daily 1: Knee Breaker
Fighter utility 2: Shielded Sides
Fighter encounter 3: Bull Charge

ITEMS
Scale Armor, Heavy Shield, Longsword
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Intentionally took longsword instead of axe and scale instead of chain.  I was only interested in making the build feel tough.  I'll leave all the +damage stuff to the striker.  Especially considering the monsters will have as much HP as drama dictates.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Longtooth Cleric, level 4
Longtooth Shifter, Cleric

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 19 Fort: 17 Reflex: 14 Will: 19
HP: 37 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +7, Diplomacy +7, Insight +11, Heal +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +3, History +2, Intimidate +2, Nature +6, Perception +6, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2, Athletics +7

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Shielding Word
Level 2: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
Level 4: Solar Enemy

POWERS
Acolyte of Divine Secrets: Hand of Radiance
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Invigorating Assault
Cleric at-will 1: Lance of Faith
Cleric encounter 1: Cause Fear
Cleric daily 1: Moment of Glory
Cleric utility 2: Shield of Faith
Cleric encounter 3: Command

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Chainmail, Morningstar
RITUALS
Gentle Repose
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

I told myself I wouldn't take Solar Enemy, but it just feels powerful.  At the very least compared to the other feat options I considered.  Letting players think that they made the enemy die faster I think would be fun for them.  Also noticed that I wound up with only 1 STR based power, (granted a very nice one), so I'm thinking of rebuilding completely without any STR stuff going on.  Especially considering this char is very Jedi Mind Trick like.  Might consider passifist cleric feat for all the non damaging cleric powers.

In short, in floundering around indecisively with the leader build.  I want it to be very buff / enfeeble focused, low on damage and low on personal defenses, leaving that stuff to the striker and defender.  Want it to feel very support-like while at the same time feeling very powerful.

I think I'm seeing a pattern. XD

Not that Emerald would ever argue such a point since Bards are the epitome of versatility. :)

Similar vie3ws but for different reasons, Michael is referring to to the concept academically and logistically, while Gilant is more focused on the tactical aspect. But yes I think Emerald would not argue against the point, or any other bard. Only a 'one trick pony' would probably try to argue otherwise, but any one trick pony has an inherit weakness if they can't use their trick.

Thus Michael thinks that as long as the team isn't overspecialized it will be fine, but Gilant thinks that EVERYONE within the team must not overspecialize. A subtle yet distinct difference.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:54, Mon 14 Nov 2011.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
half orc ranger, level 4
Half-Orc, Ranger
Build: Marauder Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Ranger: Running Attack

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 18 Fort: 18 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 42 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +10, Athletics +10, Acrobatics +8, Stealth +8, Perception +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +3, Heal +5, History +2, Insight +5, Intimidate +4, Religion +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Lethal Hunter
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Hammer)

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Marauder's Rush
Ranger encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Bending Branch
Ranger encounter 3: Ruffling Sting

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Craghammer (2)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Daily: 2d10+8, 2d10+8, Minor: 1d10+8, Minor: 1d10+8, Action point 1d10+4, 1d10+4, quarry 1d8

Wow.  That's, what... 8d10+40+1d8 or 66 damage in 1 turn (assuming average dice rolls)  Potential for triple digit damage with good damage rolls.  In 1 turn.  At level 4.

Hmm...  526 GP (As Residuum) I'll spend on Armor of resistance 520 gp value, resist fire.  (closest i can get to resist radiant at this lvl)

Surya  : 144gp 3sp 4cp

I think I'll go for three 40 gp potions of resist for in case i get some annoying ongoing damage.  So poison, necrotic, and acid.

As we all know, the most deadly thing to PCs at this level is failing save throws vs ongoing damage.  Over.  and Over.  and Over.

As for posting, I'll post after tim posts his chars.  No idea what he wants to buy for his chars.

  So, that would be now then? ;P

A male Cavalier. How about "Adrik", a dwarf Cavalier. Just flipped to the dwarf names, saw that name, and thought it sounded nice for a Cavalier.

Hmm a dwarven Cavalier would also explain why Freedom will be MCing into a Runepriest... Dwarves do have a fondness for runes, although now I am wondering if Freedom's bonus background language should be Dwarven instead of Primordial. Adrik sounds appropriate. We'll see if it comes up, or if Adrik ever needs to be NPCed.

Choosing Tensur's Floating Disc for Surya's ritual instead of Comprehend Language.

Thunderspire Labyrinth First Printing: July 2008

DMG DC check erratta....?

When did the DC check eratta come out?  I'm curious if I ever run into a module printed after it if they adjusted the DC checks in the modules published after the eratta.  Also, there's no equivalent for a DC 10.  20 moderate becomes 10.  15 becomes 5.  So 10 becomes 0?

  They never bother making errata for modules or the encounters and such in the back of books (such as, that BS acid pit trap is still unchanged).  Also, module writers ignore the charts and rules anyways and just put whatever they want.  (it's take 10 forever no matter what athletics DC to climb a rope for example, in the Athletics skills.  Climbing a brick wall with your bare hands is locked into 20,).

  Not to mention both in the original DMG list, and the errata list, 10, 15, 20, etc do not match the lv 4-6 DC numbers.  Module writers, again, just list whatever they want.

Updated map with init order and missing PC entries.  Then noticed my halfling archer has more HP than a fighter???

May HP: 36
Fighter HP is 15+CON(15)+6 per level.  36 is Correct.

Opened up Char Builder and checked Icarus.  There it was, Level 2, 37 HP???!

Ranger HP is 12+CON(11)+5 per level.  Should be 28.  No toughness feat I could find.  Oh right.  Auspicious Birth background.   -.o

Icarus HP is 12+DEX(20)+5 per level.  37.  *Heavy Sigh*

Move along.  Nothing to see here.

Image links weren't working when I put them in Joey's sheet.  Through Tim's determination, he finally figured out what was broken.  Apparently, RPOL hates this line: ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Having that in a sheet kills any kind of < img src="link" > code.  In the off chance you ever have a post or sheet with two "equals" signs in it and your code no worky, you've been informed why.

Also, posted up his charsheet with powers and such via images.  I like it a lot and plan to use this method for any char that it works for.

  Yeah, the Cliff is 20 feet high (4 tiles), and Matt was... uh...  *eyes static image map trying to remember where he started*... Would have to move three down if he wanted to reach that little corner at the bottom of the ledge.   He need to double move, so can't ready a charge... Wait, How the hell did ADAM charge? There's no room on the cliff to charge with unless somehow we can use climb movement as the charge movement -.o
This message was last edited by the player at 20:47, Thu 01 Dec 2011.

Now that you mention it...  Looks at map.  Ah yes.  Game mechanics shenanigans is how.  Because characters cannot move diagonally through solid objects, in order to get to the top of the ledge, the character must first get to the square beyond the ledge, effectively hovering midair over a cliff cartoon-character-like.  Like so:

```O
``/_\
__/ \
  |
  |
  |

Same for climbing down.  Yes you can charge vertically, there's no rule against it.  But in this case, Adam and Matt would be charging from that magical "hovering midair" square, which too is legal.  Unless I'm wrong.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:27, Fri 02 Dec 2011.

Unfortunately since I have to use my mothers laptop while I am visiting her, since my laptop is currently being repaired by Best Buy, and my mother's laptop gives an 'Access Denied' error when I try to connect any of my USB 2.0 external drives or Flash Drives (And the only way I can fix that error is to reformat drive and do clean reinstall of Windows 7 which my mother won't let me do yet since it is only affecting MY USB2 stuff and not hers and she doesn't want to loose data.)

Thus I won't be able to use any of my notes for the Dark Sun Campaign till I get back home and regain the access my notes.
Thus the Dark Sun campaign will be paused until December 12th as I can't run the campaign when I can't access the files I need... and I'm rather angry about this as it also means I can't work on my dissertation paper as I can't access those files either.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:38, Mon 05 Dec 2011.

Sorry about your computer woes.  ;.;  Hope things go as well as they can for you.

Got lucky, found a site online that showed a work-a-round to temporarily resolve the issue. (The issue will still occur if I try to plug in a new USB 2.0 device and don't use the work-a-round for it first.)

By booting up into safe mode and manually forcing it to update the drivers I could get it to load the drivers for the 2 USB 2 external hard drives and my Flash Drive I can now access my files, which also means I'll not have to pause the Dark sun campaign and I'll be able to spend time during the week working on the dissertation paper.