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23:30, 12th July 2024 (GMT+0)

Die Roller Request: D616.

Posted by tmagann
tmagann
member, 960 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 00:07
  • msg #1

Die Roller Request: D616

I'm not sure the die roller can do this, but it never hurts to ask:

Marvel Multiverse RPG uses a D616 system. 3d6, the middle die has an 'M' replacing the 1. "m" is worth 6, and adds a Fantastic result.
patchwolf
member, 102 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 00:32
  • msg #2

Die Roller Request: D616

I don't see the need for this one, personally.  The standard roller can handle this.  Make sure you configure the roller to "Record each die" so that you get the dice as they're rolled.  It's then up to the player/DM to note which one is the middle and treat a roll of "1" as a "6".
tmagann
member, 961 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 00:49
  • msg #3

Die Roller Request: D616

The standard roller can handle a lot of D6 things, such as rolling again every time you get a 6.  Or rolling two d10 to get a d100.  People still ask for the die roller to do all the work. That's all I'm doing
patchwolf
member, 103 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 01:08
  • msg #4

Die Roller Request: D616

Fair enough to ask.  All I'm doing to showing how the current dice roller can get you 90% of the way there.  I personally wouldn't risk breaking the existing dice roller by adding a complex system to it, but I'm a cautious developer by nature.  Jase may decide this is low risk and worth the dev effort.
tmagann
member, 962 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 01:12
  • msg #5

Die Roller Request: D616

I'm sorry if my request for a die roller mod that you have no interest in is such an issue for you. Possibly you could just not use it, rather than trying to ensure no one else can, either?
patchwolf
member, 104 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 01:32
  • msg #6

Die Roller Request: D616

You seem to be mistaking me stating "I don't see the need for this" for me saying "no."  Nor am I trying to prevent anyone else from doing anything.

Rest assured I'm not the one who makes the call here.  But I am allowed both to have an opinion, and to express it, as long as I do so respectfully (which I believe I've done).

Best of luck to you.  I actually hope your request is deemed easy to implement and you get what you're after.
tmagann
member, 963 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 01:39
  • msg #7

Die Roller Request: D616

Well, All I saw was you saying you didn't see the need, so it would be too much work for the site developers to implement.

Do you do this with every die roll convention you don't use, or just this one? Serious question.

Your main point, other than the work load for someone else, that they should be able to judge for themselves, was that so much could be done in your head. By that logic, the die roller would only have a d4, d6, and d10. Everything else could be worked out with them.

So it's  a question of where the line is drawn. You're drawing it where it benefits you. Like so many others before me, I'm simply asking for a bit more, if the site developers feel it's do-able.

I see no reason for a pre-emptive: "it's not worth it" simply because it doesn't bother you.

Do you do this for every request for a game's special die conventions, or is it something about this game?
SunRuanEr
subscriber, 661 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 01:51
  • msg #8

Die Roller Request: D616

There's really no need to argue the point.

Often, someone will come in and ask for a certain feature that can already be done, and someone else will point out that said possibility already exists/can be accomplished another way that the original requester might not have realized. Please don't take someone saying they don't see a need for something new because something that exists can already do it relatively easily as slamming the entire idea as sucking. There is a long list of requests for things that are new, which means that it's never a bad idea to triage those by sorting what can already be done a different way from what can't be done at all.

Besides, if nothing else, it's helpful to know a workaround while waiting to see if a requested feature can/will be implemented.
tmagann
member, 964 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 01:56
  • msg #9

Die Roller Request: D616

That's not what he said. He said: Do without, It might ruin the die roller.
patchwolf
member, 105 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 02:48
  • msg #10

Die Roller Request: D616

Since you asked, I'm happy to explain.  Keep in mind I'm not trying to further an argument; I'm only adding context so you might understand my position.

I'm a software tester by trade, and have been for 20+ years.  It's my nature to see complexities and where things might break.
  • The dice system you describe is a 3d6 model -- no issues there, we already have that function.
  • You want to apply a replace algorithm to the die roll, replacing a "1" with an alphabetical character "M" -- easy enough.
    • but only to the middle die -- this is more complex, since it involves determine the order in which the dice are rolled, and applying the replace algorithm to only the middle die.
  • You haven't specified, but there's the possibility for a further requirement to interpret the results -- if the middle die rolls a "1" (which translates to "M"), then reflect that in the output with words to the effect of "Fantastic Result" -- that's another small complexity added (is it only a natural 1 which is a fantastic result, or is a natural 6 also a fantastic result?)


You can protect other d6 systems from these changes by wrapping it up in a dice system, essentially saying "only apply these rules when the system is Marvel Multiverse RPG" but it's not a foolproof system, and involves regression testing to make 100% sure that other d6 systems have not been impacted.

So **I**, as a software tester, look at this and make the following assessment:
  • the current solution gets you 90% of the way there.
  • there is a small amount of dev effort to implement the proposed solution
    • this adds a small (cumulative) amount of dev effort to maintain the dice roller as a whole, because any system we add needs to be supported and made sure they don't break any time we add new systems.
  • there is a non-zero risk to existing dice systems which rely on a d6 model (which I assume are numerous), and would require a medium effort of regression testing to ensure are not broken in the process.

A medium effort of work to close a 10% gap (to me) is not sufficient reason to run the risk.




You're free to disagree with me.  Many people often do, and that's okay.  As one player to another, I hope Jase decides this is worth the effort and you get what you're looking for.  As someone who looks at software and assesses risk day-in and day-out, I suggest it's not needed.
tmagann
member, 965 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 03:08
  • msg #11

Die Roller Request: D616

I'm not a tester, but I used to be a programmer

Assuming each game system that has a custom die roller here is a separate program, this one would be 11 lines of code. The choice of picking the Marvel MRPG system from the main menu takes care of "Only when it's this system" as it does for all such other choices already. That bit of programing was done years ago. I'm pretty sure it's foolproof at this point.

Again, the way the die roller and the special game convention options on it seem to work already makes any worry about breaking the die roller pure fiction. My (informed)guess is that each and every one is a different sub program, independent of the main program. Worst case is that they get this special option wrong slightly, the first time.

And here's a flow chart to show how simple it is, and to avoid just that:
--
-First 3 lines: The generators for the 3d6. Call the variables Die1, Die2, Die3.
-4th line: the total. Call the variable Total. A bit of arithmetic that adds the first 3 variables.
-An If/Then That determines if Die2 is a "1". If so, skip two lines of code.

-Not-a-one: Print/Display Total, and the 3 Die (as part of the Record Each Die feature)
-Skip the next 2 lines

-It's-a-0ne: Add 5 to Total
-Print/Display Total, Die1, 'M', Die3

-Let Die1 = 0
-Let Die2 = 0
-Let Die3 = 0
-Let Total = 0
--
This is a very careful and conservative flow chart that works for any language I've encountered, but I'm a dinosaur. I used to use Fortran, basic, Visual basic, C++, Assembler, and Cobol. Most of them are out of use these days. Oh, and HTML2, with Netscape enhancements. Frankly, I expect the much more modern skills of the site folks could do it in less.

Your perceived issues are nonexistent. All you've really done is imply the site developers know less about programming than some guy that hasn't programmed in  30 years and wasn't all that good when he did. Not really respectful, but then, I'm thinking you don't really realize just how simple it really is.

And, again, you could say that NONE of the special Die roll options are needed, and have the basic functions. So what? They've been implemented, which means "need" isn't a factor here, and never has been. So it's another non issue.


Edit: Apologies. In some languages you may need to define the 4 variables as whole number integers. That could add up to 4 lines, to 15 total.
This message was last edited by the user at 03:20, Tue 23 Apr.
patchwolf
member, 106 posts
Software Tester
Sydney, Australia
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 03:40
  • msg #12

Die Roller Request: D616

You might be right, and it might be that simple.  It might not, and the stand-alone pseudo-code you've written might not integrate with the dice roller function as it's currently written.  I don't know, sine I haven't seen under the hood.

> Your perceived issues are nonexistent.

I take a small amount of umbrage at this, but you don't know me from Joe Bloggs on the street, so I'll let it slide.  I've been a tester nearly as long as you were a developer -- if I got even a fraction of the costs incurred by my employers every time my non-existent issues suddenly became extant issues, I could retire already.

At this point, we're now just arguing back and forth.  You've made your request; I've stated my opinion, you've countered.  The only place left to go is down, and I'd suggest we not do that.  Best of luck to you.
tmagann
member, 966 posts
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 04:11
  • msg #13

Die Roller Request: D616

That wasn't code, that was a flow chart. It's a guide to be used to write a program in whatever language is being used. So it will work with this die roller, as they'll simply use the same language they always use for the other special game die rollers.

And it IS that simple. I'm assuming that's basically what they have done for each and every other special die roller for other games.

You don't really seem to understand the difference between writing a code and testing one, and you're creating problems that simply won't exist or that have already been addressed. Every programmer is a tester, but every test is NOT also a programmer.

All I know about you is that you don't seem to understand much about coding. Less even than I remember. It's enough to know that the problems you've created either have already been addressed, the first time they made a special die roller, or just wouldn't exist unless someone tried to over complicate things. I get it: you've committed to your position.
bigbadron
moderator, 16231 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 23 Apr 2024
at 04:54

Die Roller Request: D616

patchwolf:
Fair enough to ask.  All I'm doing to showing how the current dice roller can get you 90% of the way there.  I personally wouldn't risk breaking the existing dice roller by adding a complex system to it, but I'm a cautious developer by nature.  Jase may decide this is low risk and worth the dev effort.

There are lots of cases where the standard roller can get you "90% of the way there", and yet many of those systems have been added to the existing roller already.  Note that, in approximately 0% (give or take 0%) of those cases, did the addition of a specialised system break the roller for anybody else.

Also note that this site is full of features that aren't needed, but are nice to have.

Please consider this post the official end to this argument*, and let jase decide if this request is possible or not.  Thank you.

*As in  "any further such posts will be removed".
This message was last edited by the user at 05:13, Tue 23 Apr.
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