Creating a rich and immersive role-playing game on RPOL often involves a deal of preparation. One way that I like to prepare is to select appropriate portraits for NPCS and additionally to give them detailed descriptions. I would ideally like to do this ahead of time, so that over the course of running the game I would already have these descriptions to work from.

However, players often seem to (for better or for worse) take clues from what is on the NPC list. This can manifest in various ways. Sometimes the name of the character is a dead giveaway. Alternatively, if they match the description I've given the character from description in-game, they can put a name to a face that they might not have had. Or perhaps the fact that I've added an NPC to the list means the character must be important, acting sometimes as an unintentional red herring. While I usually select players who aren't really actively trying to "meta game" the whole thing, at some level it can't be helped. You can't unsee what you've seen. (It's like accidentally flipping a few pages ahead in a book you're reading and getting a spoiler; you aren't trying to, but now that you know, it's going to color your view of the narrative).

There is, to be sure, a workaround but it is unpleasant. I could wait until the last minute, until I am ready in all cases for the players to have the name and/or physical detail of an NPC, and then create the NPC at the very last moment. This unfortunately eliminates or severely handicaps my ability to do advanced preparation for the game.

The solution I propose is that there be an option to Hide NPCs.

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User Story: As a Game Master, I would like the option to be able to hide characters in my game from being viewable from players on the Cast page, so that I can establish and maintain substantial character detail in the game without revealing the character until an appropriate point in the game's narrative.

Acceptance Criteria:

• Through the GM menu, I would like to be able flag characters to "Hide."
• By default, the "Hide" flag will be unchecked, so all NPCs created will appear on the Cast list as they do under current functionality.
• If the "Hide" flag is set on an character, that character should not appear on the player's Cast list.
• If the "Hide" flag is set on an character, that character should still appear on the GM's Cast list, with some indication that the character is Hidden (a superscript H appended to the character name, for example).
• If the "Hide" flag is removed, the character will appear on the Cast list for players as normal.
• If a post is made for a character with the "Hide" flag, clicking on the Character Name will not show the character description as normal. Instead, it will show a message that denotes that this character's description is hidden.

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Thus implemented, this seems like it would not affect people who are perfectly satisfied with the way things are right now, but will allow GMs who do advanced prep work for their games to benefit from the ability to keep some things behind the curtain.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:39, Fri 27 June 2014.

+1, would love to see this and most likely make use of it.

+1 because I would use it.

In the mean time, I give the NPC a bogus name and put everything -- the description, the links to pics, and characters sheet -- in the character sheet section of the character. That way it's hidden until I want to reveal it and all I have to do is change the name and copy the info over to the character description.  This way you can have it prepared in advance and ready to go.
This message was last edited by the user at 21:52, Thu 26 June 2014.

+1 for why not?

That being said most of my npc's are not listed at all.  Many I have been to lazy to even make sheets for.

+1.

As of now, I do the work out of game in your standard doc. This wouldn't normally be an issue but when my players are straddling that line of "they are about to meet this NPC" I have to take that document everywhere I go -especially as I post from several different PCs. Or add to the scratch pad. Both aren't desirable.

Excellent idea. I too give +1 on this


I would use this - I currently have 4 PCs the real life has called them away from the game and they want to come back, with this feature I can change a PC over to NPCS 'hide'  them away for later.

And like noted about can use when NPCs are not active but are being developed.

The easy solution is to make a post in a lettered thread (group A, group B, and so on. Don't use group Z I've found that's for players that try to cause trouble.) no other player has access to, img src the NPC picture and type out the descriptions there. Don't add an NPC until you actually need to

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 7):

That will work but I think the point is not to do double work with setting it up in a thread then paste & copy it. Also you don't get all the features, which again can be developed in a 'hide' and when ready, it's an easy check box.

Aslo when done with the NPC if it becomes inactive you would then have to delete it keep it in the thread and again when you want to use it P&C it.

'Hide' feature very useful.

Good feedback so far. For the record, I do use the interim workarounds like storing the information in other places. This feature suggestion would add a lot of convenience and allow GMs to "pull the trigger" instantly when ready.

Perhaps an option to include the word Hidden in the Tag which would hide the individual from users when they look in the cast list.  You would reveal them by removing the word hidden from the tag.  This could even potentially allow you to hide a PC too.

In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 10):

I really like that idea.

The tags are already pretty limited character-wise.  Adding "hidden" to them would make it hard to add any other title other than "NPC".

That's not to say it doesn't have merit since the current system already divides the cast list by what's in the tag, just that it has limitations, as well.

In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 10):

I'm not sure what use hiding a player would be though, unless you're planning someone's death in advance.

In reply to Joebobcool456 (msg # 13):

I could see hiding a player who is getting ready to join but you don't want the other players to know he's coming in before you get it ready.

There's a Final Fantasy trope (er... maybe not final fantasy specifically but adventure games in general) wherein a character 'dies' and comes back later in a Grand Entrance.

In reply to Evil Empryss (msg # 14):

This, i would like to keep new players hidden as well, provide some mystique beforehand.

While my thought was originally to have the ability to hide NPCs, I could definitely see the utility in hiding PCs as well - especially bearing in mind that I've seen some large games that masquerade NPCs with the PC designation in such a way that players don't know whether they're interacting with a GM controlled NPC or another player.

I've updated my original post to indicate this.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:38, Fri 27 June 2014.

Is this just a discussion regarding the features you'd like the web site to have or is there interest in more suggestions for working around this too?

+1 I'm currently working on a game and having to make extensive use of my scratchpad. I'm not sure I'll be able to find some things again when I need to :o

How would being Hidden impact their posting?  Does it just take them off the Cast List?  I could see many GMs just Hiding everybody and basically eliminating the Cast List from their game, with as much as they worry about players gleaning secret information off of it... I'm not sure I would like that to be possible.

Maybe characters assigned to Group Z (where they're effectively blocked from the rest of the game, as I understand it) should also be kept off the Cast List?  That sounds simple and reasonable to me.

Sorry, still not seeing what the problem is in putting NPC characters in an unused Group.  You can then happily set them up ahead of time, then when you're ready to roll them out you just change the Group(s) that NPC has access to.  Surely it'd be exactly the same effort to go in and uncheck the proposed Hide flag ?  Click to change Groups or click to change Hide ... tom-ay-toes, tom-ar-toes ?

Adding a tickbox involves a whole bunch of extra work.

Tags, however, are already there and being used.  How about if we just hide the character if the tag is set "hide" or "hidden"?

Whatever way works.

I rarely create NPC handles; but I like to not have the 'PC light' going off to immediately greet the new person as a friend. It's fine if you're meeting at a safe point; but occasionally I introduce new people in dangerous areas; and if people know there's someone new by looking at the cast list; it's... a moodkiller.

"Oh, this must be X; we should treat him as a friend."

Jase, I really like your idea. A "Hidden" tag would be great. Much less work than the way I do it now, where I stick information elsewhere to copy over at the last minute. It also takes care of the idea of hiding new PCs until they are dropped into the game.

+1 because I would really use this.

I'd still rather change groups than modify tags as that's a couple of clicks vs typing ... but -0 from me as I don't mind if anyone else wants to.  :>

In reply to Skald (msg # 25):

I tend to use all my groups for the actual game, so that wouldn't help me, and it doesn't stop people from seeing the new character in the cast page.  That's the whole point of being able to hide the new character the way jase is suggesting.

Agreed. The cast list is the biggest issue if, when introducing a new player, you'd like reaction to be genuine.

Hah!  I introduced a new PC to one of my games, and she was immediately threatened with death by all and sundry.  No sign of the old, "Ah, it's a new PC, must be friendly." syndrome there!

Um, anyway, hidden characters in the cast list, by whatever method, could come in useful.

That works just fine, in my book. The less work to add a new very useful feature, the better.

What happens if an NPC is assigned to a player and then hidden?  Can the character post?  If so, can anyone see it?

In reply to Genghis the Hutt (msg # 30):

To be most useful, the person who owns the character should always be able to see it.

Ta EE - I've got it now ... we want to hide 'em on the Cast page.

I think it'd be a more elegant solution to limit what appears on the Cast page to just those groups the player is in (and just the GM's details for those in group Z) - then you could put those pending NPCs in group Z.  When you think about it, why should any player be able to see any other PCs that they're not currently in a group with ?

But that's probably a lot more work than the hidden tag.  :>

A lot of my work as a GM is done for me when players see someone on the cast page and say "Ooh!  I want to meet that character!" or "Ooh! would it be cool if that NPC and that PC met and then such-and-such happened?".  What you're suggesting would be like saying just because you play Iron Man you shouldn't get to see what's happening with Thor and Blackwidow in the rest of the movie.  I would say that most players I know want to be able to see everything that they can and do not abuse that knowledge.

Then there's the simple pride in my NPCs that I want to show them off to the players. The whole "look how cool and well-developed a world I've created for you". :p

Plus there's the whole, "I can't see anybody else in the Cast List except the GM.  Did everybody else quit?" thing.  Not to mention, "I look at the game and there's nobody at all in the Cast List.  I'm not going to apply to a game with no players."

Yup - I'm the opposite ... I don't like to read any visible threads that my character isn't in, as I want to be surprised as much as my character when meeting new friends/enemies.  But then I actively avoid finding out what's going to happen in my favourite TV shows too.

However, my wife is just the opposite - she likes to watch things from the point of view of knowing what's going to happen (a life time of murder mystery reading - once you know the twists, you know them, so when next you read that Poirot book it's fun to see what the murderer does and says knowing all along that they're guilty) so I certainly respect the point of view of those who don't feel the same way I do.

Which leaves either the Hide tag or have a GM option to 'display cast in other groups' ... whichever is easier for jase (noting that we don't really like more GM options).  :>

In reply to bigbadron (msg # 34):

Ooh, better answer than mine!

Yeah, didn't see BBR's words of wisdom before I posted ...

So -1 to my suggestion and Hidden tag it is then.  :>

Happy to have helped !  <grrrrrins>

LOL, I've said that to myself many a time ;>

I do like the idea of hiding NPCs until the critical moment though




that'd be neat, then you just change the tag when you're ready to introduce the surprise archvillain you've worked so hard on
This message was last edited by the user at 15:46, Wed 02 July 2014.

So... you mark them with "Hide" in the tags, and it takes them off the Cast List with no other impact - that's the current intent, right?

I'm a little bit worried.  I know GMs fret a lot about what players glean from the List.  Some of it is totally legitimate, especially for some games; a lot of it is, to my mind, just.. worrying.  The information on the Cast List is pretty deliberately limited.  I see a lot of GMs using this to shut down the Cast List completely to avoid people `finding out stuff', pre-emptively, instead of just hiding, say, an incoming character now and again.

But I like the Cast List.  I use it a lot, just to double-check, well, who everybody is, keep up with the Descriptions, etc. (It also, quietly, holds that Last Chance to Rmail, if you want to hold a connection with a fellow player after a game has been deleted without warning.)  On top of, of course, Ron's points about the possible confusion.  I know this is currently intended as a temporary mask, but I see it being used as more than that.


...Hiding anybody in Group Z, specifically, from the Cast List would allow building NPCs ahead of time, without compromising anything else.  It would possibly allow hiding an incoming PC until they're ready, too, though it would also, if I understand it right, hide the rest of the game from them, and, of course, require that the GM isn't otherwise using Group Z for their own private notes that they don't want the newly-incoming player to see.  Though that really just means using a different Group for that and that's not so bad.  It wouldn't let you keep a fully-built character Hidden from the Cast List while letting them post and otherwise interact with the game, but it does let you avoid the `foreshadowing' that people are complaining about here.

It's a little less flexible, but that's on purpose, because it stops a GM from tagging everyone with Hide and turning off their Cast List completely.

This would only affect seeing who shows up on the cast list... and would also presumably also not impact any character that was tied to you.

So yes... it would keep you from seeing an upcoming villain or hero around the corner that you haven't met yet.

Note, as it only affects your cast list, it would not stop you from getting to rmail, look at person's description, of someone that you have actually already encountered.

If someone remains hidden, you could still go to a post and click on their name to see their description.  You can click on the info link to get to options to message them or look at other details such as login time or groups.  So if your concern is games that go silent or suddenly deleted without warning, presuming the gm doesn't deleted all the content and players out, you would be able to contact the other players, even if everyone was hidden from the cast list for some reason.

In reply to Utsukushi (msg # 39):

Lots of people use Group Z to do other things like hold recalcitrant players.

If someone is causing a big enough problem in your game that you want to exile them to Group Z, why would you not just kick them out altogether?

*shrug*. I don't do it, but I've seen others write about how they use that group. Just dropping it out there. With the hide tag you wouldn't have to use it if you don't want to, but those of us who do, can. :-)

Normally I'm, like, all in favor of anything like that; it's just that, as a player, I enjoy using the Cast List, and if GMs start turning them off with this, I can't.  Even if I want to.

I have to agree with Utsukushi, I am not comfortable having it for regular players also NPC's under GM control fine for the moment but people who can post there shouldn't be a reason why they cannot show up in the cast list. If it comes to being able to be used for regular players also, then I think they shouldn't be able to post until they can be seen on the cast list. Which in the end is what a lurker is anyways.

As for not being able to see all players on the cast list and what you are saying LoreGuard. That all might work for people in the game, which again if they can access the info anyways if someone who is hidden posts. There really isn't a reason for them to be hidden in the cast list in the first place. Also if you are not part of a game yet, and all you have is the cast list to look at and then if people are hidden on it then you are missing info you might need. I know I look at the cast list to find out things before I join a game, sometime the bios hold more info in there then the name gives.

The great thing with RPOL is the fact that we have the ability to have characters in these games and you can post their info. If suddenly you can start hiding them away for whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a point to having that character feature in the first place.

Whilst I don't like the hiding of all cast members; until a character makes a first post, I would like other people not knowing. "Oh look, there's a new player in the cast list. We should be friendly to any NPCs who aren't attacking..."

And I need for the new player to be able to see what's going on; so he's got a clear idea of what he's responding to.

In dungeons, I generally have the initial meeting be as though to an NPC; till it's clear they're not coming to blows.

If you fear that GMs will use it to close down people's ability to see one another's players descriptions and such, I doubt that would happen... or at a minimum... doubt it would happen often.

At present... current GMs have the capacity to delete any description you might like... and modify and bio lines that you have if they don't want the sharing of that information.  It is within their current rights.  How many GMs are preventing this now?  I imagine it would be a very short list... assuming that anyone is on it.  While this feature might make it more convenient to hide some of this information, I still doubt we would see it used that way in all but the rarest of instances.

Maybe someone who is running a game under a premise where all they players interact, but do so as if they were all in solo games, where the GM acts as the intermediary between all the characters.  Then technically hiding the characters might make some 'odd' sense.  Otherwise, if the GM is of the opinion that hiding All of the players from one another is going to be standard operating procedure throughout the game, and you are one who like to go to it to reference the other players descriptions and such, do you really think you are likely to be attracted to the GMs gaming style in general?

Basically, it is similar to a PL.  The GM decides to hide a piece of information from the players, until they are exposed to them.  Did adding the option for PLs destroy the continuity of games across the spectrum because not everyone saw everything that was in the post?

There currently is a way to hide NPCs from players -- don't add them in until the last minute.  I believe this is what the OP is trying to avoid.

I see this as a request to give GMs greater flexibility and control over their game.  While I understand the concerns I don't think players should be dictating what control GMs have over their game (within reason, of course).

There's so many ways for GMs to dupe, deceive and just downright abuse players that I personally can't see how hiding an NPC from the cast list even registers on the scale.

I think it's also a matter of trust. If you don't feel you can trust that GM to not take advantage of their power? Don't play with them. I won't play under a GM I don't trust; because what's the point? There are just so many ways a GM can make your characters life hell; and if you don't trust them to only do it to increase enjoyment in the game, or at least for plot purposes, there's no point in playing with them. Some GM/player teams just don't work; even amongst friends. When you're dealing with a whole bunch of players you don't know, the chances of occasionally running into a GM you can't abide as a GM, or you can't abide in your game, increases.

Like Utsukushi I use the Cast list for descriptions (saves scrolling up and down posts to find that elusive last one I need now), but if the alternative for those GMs who want this is to have to prepare everything offline and only add those chars in at the last minute, then the effect is the same either way, so I won't begrudge them the use of the proposed Hidden tag to make their lives easier.

But I won't use it myself, so I'm a firm +0.  :>

Mind you, sometimes a bit of metagaming doesn't go astray - some groups I've played with it really helps to distinguish between NPC and new PC:

GM: "You see a dark cloaked figure coming down the forest path towards you ..."

PCs: "Fireball !  Missile weapons !  Charge !"

GM: OOC: "Sorry Fred, you lost another new character.  Care to try for a third time ?  You might get lucky."

In reply to jase (msg # 48):

I agree with jase.  For me, I just add NPCs with a "player" tag (with me, the GM, as the owner) if I don't want them to know the character is an NPC.  I've never had a problem with that, and that might avoid the instant attack of an incoming PC/NPC.  And the tag can be changed later.

I modify the player list with NPCs and PCs frequently enough (and often have PCs on hold for a month or more) that I've never had an immediacy concern either.

In one game, I created a secret NPC (i.e., tagged as a "player") and then never needed to introduce him.  That was about 9 years ago, and he is still listed as a player but has never come into the game.  I also tend to create a cast of potential characters (NPC or PC) well ahead of introducing them, which also would put off the metagaming aspect a little bit.

Will it only apply for NPCs?  I have no problem with that at all; they can hide all the NPCs if they want.  It's having all the PCs hidden that I wouldn't like, and that I'm worried a lot of GMs will do because of.. well, as I've said, just the way they worry about what players are `finding out'.  There's a certain psychology when you're setting things up that, if you're trying to keep anything secret, pushes you to keep everything secret.  It's not a rational thing.

And it's not the GMs duping, deceiving, or abusing us that bothers me, because that's all wonderful.  It's just the Cast List.  I like it, I use it, and it has a lot of reasons to be there.  LoreGuard is right that a lot of its functions can now be reached through back-doors (especially alongside people's posts), but Skald is totally, totally right that that is a great deal less convenient than the Cast List.  There's a reason the Cast List is one of our Dice Links.  Those are important things.


You could just as well say GMs shouldn't allow players that they don't trust not to metagame like that.  Except, here's the thing -- I don't think such GMs would be abusing their power.  I think they would be using this power in a totally reasonable way, that would remove an RPoL feature that I like.  What it really comes down to is, when I read the description of this feature, as we're talking about implementing it, I immediately thought, "Hey, cool, I could Hide everybody, and then no one could see anyth-- oh, hey, wait."  Because I'm totally susceptible to that super-secretive psychology that GMs fall into, and I know I'm not the only one.

I don't have any problem at all with this feature in its intended use: Hiding a not-yet-introduced NPC is something I would probably use.  Hiding an incoming PC certainly has its place.  (Though as I understand the tags now, I do believe there is nothing stopping you from tagging a character owned by a player as an NPC, or vice-versa, if you just want to sow some metagame-confusion.)

I just don't see anything in it that stops a GM from slapping "Hide" on everybody and turning the whole Cast List off, and that does bother me, because... well, I think I've already mentioned this, but I like and use the Cast List.

If it only applies to NPCs, then that solves my worry, though it doesn't do everything people are asking for it to do (specifically, also hiding a not-yet-introduced PC).  Group Z would have, but I can see where it conflicts with other possible uses of Group Z, so maybe that's not so good.

Is there a way to make it only apply to a character until they have a post?  That should mean they've been "Revealed" anyway.  So you could totally set up an NPC, or even an incoming PC, without giving them away in the Cast List... the GM can introduce them in a descriptive post... people can react naturally... and they don't show up on the List (as PC or NPC) until there is a direct post from that character? (Even if that direct post turns out to be, "Oof.  Erk.  Arrrrrrrrrgh...thud")  An incoming PC would have to hold off on posting even in an OOC thread, but if you're trying to hide them until after they're introduced, they have to do that anyway.

I'm not sure about the programming, but that seems to me to do everything people want to do here, without circumventing the Cast List as-a-feature.

I'm a +1 if we can give it some kind of limit like that, but, for what it's worth, a -1 without it.

That is exactly what I've been looking to happen.. Cool.

+1 more, this would be very useful

+1 this would be useful for any games where the GMs wants to pre-prepare NPCs, provide mystery over a new PC, or run a very paranoid game.
If you could also use it to hide characters whose players have dropped out or gone AWOL, or 'died' for a dramatic return as someone else said.

We currently have one section of the cast list for Players/tagged characters and one for NPCs. It might be possible to add a third section for Hidden characters which is only visible to the GM.
A Hidden player would be able to edit their description and such, but not see it on the cast list. I don't think it would be necessary to enable a Hidden player to see it.