jase
 admin, 3706 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 14:19
Re: RPoL Design Update
New Subject...?

Do you really have to have a subject for every message?  Seems like an awful waste of space to me and would actually improve the flow from one post to the next if there wasn't this superfluous emphasised line.

Only about 1.26% of subjects are changed (have analysed about 39 million posts over 2 million threads).  Of those how many mattered?

Happy to include it, then that's where I can put the squiggle... but are we hanging onto a pretty useless bit of (non)information because that's the way it's always been?


I think the diamond etc symbols might be due to a switch in character encoding.  If it's working on the current site but not on responsive then pretty sure that'll be it, will have to see how to fix that!

This message was last edited by the user at 00:53, Thu 29 Aug 2019.

SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 120 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 14:43
New Subject?
jase:
Do you really have to have a subject for every message?  Seems like an awful waste of space to me and would actually improve the flow from one post to the next if there wasn't this superfluous emphasised line.

Only about 1.59% of subjects are changed (have analysed about 17 million posts over 1 million threads).  Of those how many mattered?

Happy to include it, then that's where I can put the squiggle... but are we hanging onto a pretty useless bit of (non)information because that's the way it's always been?

No, we don't actually need to have a subject for EVERY message. And I suppose we don't NEED to have one at all, but in the case of several of my games, it would certainly be helpful (and not just because it's the way we've always done it).

Say for instance, (using examples of a real game) - a classroom thread that gets the Subject line changed by the GM when the classroom subject changes...

...or a military game where the maneuvers being done (on the same field) change when the date advances.

...or a particular thread that updates something the characters can see each week, and therefore has a different date as the subject line for each ICly new post on the same IC board.

I mean, we can live without it, but it's certainly helpful and handy and I feel would look nicer than putting in a manual NEW SUBJECT HERE line at the start of every post (discounting that half the players probably won't remember to DO that anyway - currently the GM can 'set it and forget it', mostly). Besides, it gives you a place to put the squiggle. :)

This message was last edited by the user at 23:31, Wed 28 Aug 2019.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15785 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:07
New Subject?
In many information threads in games, the subject lines change from post to post.

The first post might be "Character Creation" which gives the thread title and a brief overview of the initial steps in creation (name, race, how many character points, etc...  This is followed by "Character Creation: Attributes", then "Character Creation: Skills", "Character Creation: Feats", "Character Creation: Abilities", etc... etc... etc...

By putting them in separate posts, the GM can link to the appropriate post when discussing a particular aspect of character creation with a new player.  But the subject lines mean that the player can scan through the thread and quickly determine what is covered in each post.
seraphmoon
 member, 100 posts
 "Plays well with others."
 Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:36
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to jase (msg # 280):

If it helps with the encoding problem, the questionmark-in-diamond that I see is the Unicode replacement character. On the responsive site, I see it when I switch the view from UTF-8 to ISO Latin 1. If I manually switch the view on the basic site to UTF-8, it shows up too. I'm using Safari on OSX 10.14.6.
locojedi
 member, 177 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:46
Re: RPoL Design Update
[ELIMINATION OF SUBJECT LINES]

I say do away with Subject, that's a carryover from old Forum days and needs to go away.

To address the issue a few of you have mentioned, can the same thing be accomplished with an in-post header like I've done above (and below)? If the subject line is gone, then perhaps those headers will pop more to draw the eye.

[ANOTHER SAMPLE HEADER TO MAKE MY POINT]

I sometimes alter the subject lines in posts just a little bit to see if anyone even notices, and very few ever do. I think we can train our eyes to pick out things as well as glaze over things, but from a real-estate point of view, I say get rid of the subject line.
Mad Mick
 member, 952 posts
 GURPS beyond measure,
 outlander
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 15:51
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to Skald (msg # 274):

Iím not seeing all the customizable settings. Iím on mobile, though - perhaps there are less options available for me on iOS?
seraphmoon
 member, 101 posts
 "Plays well with others."
 Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:03
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 285):

I can see them on both my iPad (10.3.3) and iPhone (12.4). Where are you looking for them? I go home page>Preferences>"create one" under Your Control Panel.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 121 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:11
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to Mad Mick (msg # 285):

Did you count them, perchance? I pulled up the customizable settings on my phone and it looked like some were missing (specifically the ones with two columns of colors), but upon counting each section I realized they're all there, they're just in one column instead of two.
Mad Mick
 member, 953 posts
 GURPS beyond measure,
 outlander
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:11
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to seraphmoon (msg # 286):

Oh, great, thanks!
horus
 member, 854 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:15
Re: RPoL Design Update
SunRuanEr:
I think what is being talked about is the spread space between the author bio block and the portrait, but maybe I'm wrong. That's what I mean, but it might not be what others are referring to.


Maybe I should configure an avatar?  Haven't done that since I started using the responsive site.

Urk!  Now I know why.

This message was last edited by the user at 16:17, Wed 28 Aug 2019.

seraphmoon
 member, 102 posts
 "Plays well with others."
 Talks lots. Reads more.
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 16:53
Re: RPoL Design Update
Two things I just noticed:

The "Logout" button on responsive doesn't seem to be clearing the cookies; it just takes me back to the main page with the welcome message and my game/forum lists. Relog works, though.

In the rMail screen, I can't find a "Mark All Read" or "Compose New Message" on responsive.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 123 posts
Wed 28 Aug 2019
at 23:52
Re: RPoL Design Update
Are the fonts for Cursive and Serif and Smallcaps smaller than the regular font now?
They seem much smaller on responsive than on live.

Also, serious question that just dawned on me:
Jase, if you remove the Subject line from posts, what happens to all the Subject lines on existing posts?

I realize we could manually put in bolded headers and the like on posts going forward that didn't have subjects, but... should we be going through and adding hidden header lines to everything that currently exists, in preparation for losing the Subjects? :(

This message was last edited by the user at 01:39, Thu 29 Aug 2019.

Raddek
 supporter, 13 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 02:17
Re: RPoL Design Update
jase:
I can't see any issue with the game maps, just managed to upload three random maps to different groups, seemed to work fine...

Not the old browser refresh issue is it?


So I did a little more digging.  I tried closing / refreshing with multiple search engines, uploading the map as a JPEG and PNG and loading it to various groups.  As is, I have no problem with any group maps but the game map doesnít seem to display and basically shows each browserís graphic for a missing link picture.  Right now I have the same file loaded as the game map and group 0 map but only the group 0 one displays normally.

My best guess is that it may be a physical size issue, as when the group 0 map displays, it spreads well off of the formatted page.
horus
 member, 858 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 03:05
Re: RPoL Design Update
Raddek, which image hosting site are you using?

I've had trouble with using Google Drive for this purpose for some reason, and certain other sites have issues as well.  I think imgur.com still works...
Raddek
 supporter, 14 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 04:52
Re: RPoL Design Update
Game maps are hosted on RPoL.  I honestly didnít use them until a player requested it, preferring first to just use reference tags at first to my google drive, then <img src> tags through imgur.  Iím not having any issues with any coded references, just the images hosted by RPoL.
horus
 member, 859 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 06:36
Re: RPoL Design Update
Gotcha.  Sorry I wasted your time.

What size images did you upload, perchance?  Less than 100K size?

Well, horseradish!  The game map for one of my games is not displaying in the responive site, either.  That's because my map is larger than 100k.  The limit on the classic site is 1024K.
jase
 admin, 3708 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 07:18
Re: RPoL Design Update
Table of Contents

Subjects, do we need them?
Benefits
Hindrances
Workarounds


Subjects, do we need them?

I'm undecided on whether we really need subjects.

I don't want to have them optional, I think the website needs to either have them or not so we need to decide.

Table of Contents


Benefits

People use them to change the current topic or as a kind of heading.

It's what everyone is used to.

It could be where the squiggle goes!

Table of Contents


Hindrances

Around 99% unused.  The more I analysed threads the lower the number got.  Didnít even finish the full thread analysis so not sure how low it would have gone.

I realise someone people use them but Iím not sure if thatís a reason to continue on.  If I was proposing a new feature and only 1% was going to use it then I doubt Iíd implement it.

Weíve got the opportunity to consider what is and really think about if it should be.

ďRe:Ē is stupid.  No matter what we decide Iíll be getting rid of that.  Weíre not replying to emails.


Table of Contents


Workarounds

Hopefully youíve figured what I think is a good workaround by nowÖ  (c;

Table of Contents


I had planned on phasing out subjects but if there's enough call for them to remain then they'll remain!

Will check out the map size limitations, didn't think it'd be different on the responsive site.
nauthiz
 subscriber, 624 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 08:36
Re: RPoL Desine Update
As part of the 99%, I wouldn't miss them.  If I have ever been in a game that used them in any significant way beyond the initial first post in a thread, I don't recall it.

I think the only times I have used them personally is to be subtly cheeky about something, and that was mainly because I knew it would take people time to notice that I'd changed it mid-thread because they do just fade into the background and get ignored the vast majority of the time
bigbadron
 moderator, 15787 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 09:31
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to nauthiz (msg # 297):

Not that subtle really.  :)
evileeyore
 member, 207 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 10:36
RE: Subjects? Huh, what are they good for?
I'm in favor of 'em, just out of both inertia and as a reminder of what bloody thread I'm posting in.

However, that said, this site isn't exactly crying out in need of them and I probably won't even notice their absence.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 124 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 10:57
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to jase (msg # 296):

You've given us some good workarounds there, jase, so I can't say I'm panicking about potentially losing Subject titles. I am still on the side of keeping them instead of doing away with them - although I do wholeheartedly agree with losing the 'Re:'. Speaking of, what triggers that in the first place? I noticed while flipping through a thread recently that only a few posts at the start had an 'Re:' on them (and they weren't ones using the 'In reply to' from the Reply button, unless the authors specifically backed that portion out after using it), but then once someone started posting replies to the second (oddly, not the first) 'Re:' post, then the 'Re's were everywhere.

I think the most important benefits of them (beyond a home for the squiggle!) is that it lets the GM change the topic within the thread setting and automatically puts it up for each successive post made by a player so the players aren't tasked with having to remember to manually put in their own new header, and (as evileeyore just mentioned) that they provide a reminder for what thread is being posted in. If we rely on the GM to manually put in a header when something is changed, and then the players drop the ball (and my experience is that they will), well... if we're three posts past the GM post, we can scroll back up. If we're three PAGES past the GM post, things will get confusing.

Seriously though, what will happen to currently-existing Subjects if you remove them? (Edit: I realize you said 'phase out' which implies they'll hang around, but I like to be 100% sure.)

I'm not panicking about not being able to use them going forward (as you said, my games are apparently in the 1%, so I'll adjust if I have to), but I am rather panicky about losing the ones that already exist. I've got... well, more than I want to count right now posts that rely on the Subject line to keep the information in them set by in-game date/time (and no real way to tell from the body of the post, if that suddenly disappears). Should I be going through and adding headers to those posts, just in case?

This message was last edited by the user at 11:09, Thu 29 Aug 2019.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15788 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 12:16
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 300):

Used to run a game where the subject line basically said something like. "Profit Margin - Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 11:00".  So location, date, and time.  As the thread lengthened, the time and date were changed to reflect advancing time.  An in-character time stamp for the players and GM.  Saved a lot of "Okay, we had six hours to complete this repair... Hey, GM!  How long have we got left before the core melts down?"

As the subject line of the post that information is, currently, always there automatically in every post, and right where the players can find it easily as they are posting.  It never gets bumped off the page if the players get into long IC discussions or planning sessions.

Could I live without it?  Probably.  Eventually.

Would I miss the convenience of having it there?  Definitely.
horus
 member, 860 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 16:00
Re: RPoL Design Update
I see subject lines as organizational data:  they are there to herald what a post is about, and to make searching for a particular post or block of posts within a topic somewhat easier.  I would hate to see them go.
Raddek
 supporter, 15 posts
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 16:22
Re: RPoL Design Update
horus:
What size images did you upload, perchance?  Less than 100K size?

Well, horseradish!  The game map for one of my games is not displaying in the responive site, either.  That's because my map is larger than 100k.  The limit on the classic site is 1024K.


Shoot, thatís exactly what it was.  I noticed the 1024 limit in the old site, must have missed the change.  Odd that the same restriction isnít applied to the group maps...  thanks for the help!
evileeyore
 member, 208 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Thu 29 Aug 2019
at 20:40
Re: RPoL Design Update
bigbadron:
Used to run a game where the subject line basically said something like. "Profit Margin - Dinomn/Lanth (0302) Date: 316-1107 11:00".  So location, date, and time.

Now that is a good idea.