jase
 admin, 3788 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 12:12
Re: RPoL Design Update
While I appreciate the voracity and volume of your replies (and haven't had a chance to fully digest them) there's one thing I will remind you all... if adding or removing a feature is contentious then I won't do it unless there's an overwhelming vote to do so (or it's just otherwise unavoidable).

So we'll be sticking with last logon available, I'll just have to tweak so last post (which affects obfuscation calculations) includes private messages.
Skald
 moderator, 920 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 12:55
Re: RPoL Design Update
Just a thought re the note on the top of the page:

Hover over a row (or click on touch devices) for additional information.

Could we tweak the terminology to:

Hover mouse over a row (or tap on touchscreens) for additional information.


:>
Low Key
 subscriber, 248 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 14:25
Re: RPoL Design Update
Thank you Jase! :)
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 352 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 15:08
Re: RPoL Design Update
Understood, jase, but I had to try! =)

With that in mind, however, I would like to request two compromises that I don't think anyone will disagree with (if you can make them happen).

One, since we have a player view and a GM view cast list, can we keep the Last Login information in the part that requires you to mouseover to view it on the player view? That's not a removal of anything, since that's how the responsive cast list works right now for everyone. You'd just be *adding* the non-mouseover view for GMs.

Two, can we agree to remove the groups from the player view? (At least for characters other than your own.) No one seemed to have a problem with that, and it would help take care of handling last-post-tripping via hidden groups in the meantime while you work on getting PMs to work. Not to mention that it's pretty handy for other purposes, anyway, like letting parties split to handle secret side quests/missions without everyone knowing they're going on/who's involved, etc.

This message was last edited by the user at 15:11, Mon 07 Dec 2020.

JohnB
 supporter, 2105 posts
 Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 15:37
Re: RPoL Design Update
SunRuanEr:
Two, can we agree to remove the groups from the player view? (At least for characters other than your own.) No one seemed to have a problem with that, a


I do  :)
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 353 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 15:41
Re: RPoL Design Update
You said it was important to you as GM, JohnB. I'm not suggesting removing it from GM view. =)

JohnB:
As a GM, I rarely use 'No of Posts' - I am much more interested in details of the last login and post.  'Groups' is much more important to me than 'Tag' (I  know the status of my players and NPCs)

JohnB
 supporter, 2106 posts
 Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 16:00
Re: RPoL Design Update
Yep.  But I also use it as a player to monitor who is in the same group as me  :)
Locke1221
 subscriber, 51 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 16:53
Re: RPoL Design Update
@JohnB, you can do that in other ways, like posting a response in a thread and checking the check boxes below the formatting, which will list every character (PC or NPC) that has access to that thread and thus that group.

I'll preface this by saying I've not been a player in a game on rpol for about three years, the few games I've put a character in dying before play started. I have been an active GM for several games for the last seven years though, and that has been my primary participation on the site for the last three. So my needs/desires/perception is all wrapped up in the GM side.

As a GM, I find its been much like teaching a classroom, which is the job I participate in outside of rpol. My second job as it were. It is a balancing act of placating here, firm lines here, massaging egos there, and boosting confidence to that other side. I've found groups to be a great tool in helping to weave the stories my players create together, such as when the evil characters in my D&D game went off to rob as a side quest, they were able to do so secretly.

Because players, even the best players, have a hard time divorcing themselves of their out of character and in character knowledge, and rather than run into the issue of characters being treated differently I like to keep some things close to the chest. However, I have also had players go nuts over knowing that x characters were in a group they weren't, and how I must be playing favorites.

Now sure, someone could say just remove the player who had the fit, or don't keep things secret, but my experience is that warm bodies who post and remain with a game are rare and that people can't keep what they know from being what their character knows or acts on.

In conclusion, and as a final point, you already can't see a post that is in a group you are not in, why should a player have access to knowing who is in a group they are not?
JohnB
 supporter, 2107 posts
 Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 19:32
Re: RPoL Design Update
Locke1221:
... why should a player have access to knowing who is in a group they are not?


Why not?

*Shrug* I have  played and DMed here for the last 20 years or so, and have also spent a large chunk of my life as a teacher -  I currently train apprentices in Digital Marketing.

I have always been a very 'Student Centred' teacher, full involving all of my students in all of my classes -  and being very honest with them all the way through their courses.  I do the same in my games.  A game belongs as much to the players as it does the GM -  without the players, there isn't a game, they have a right to have an input into all aspects of the game.  In my game, rules and settings change according to input from players.  I am just working out how to run a mini arena (something that I personally dislike intensely) because that is something my players want.

I wonder is, as you haven't participated as a player for a while, you might be somewhat divorced from the way that players feel and see games?  As a player, I have had good GMs and bad GMs.  Some games I  have remained in for years, others I have left quite quickly.  I have had DMs that post quickly, others who post to a schedule and some who seem to struggle to post at all.  I like to have some element of control / involvement in games I join.  I suspect there are quite a few players like that, who don't get involved in this board.  TBH, I am only here at the moment, because one of my players noticed a specific problem in the way languages were display
led.  Otherwise, I would he completely oblivious of this discussion.

In my own game, I move characters between parties and groups.  I leave players in groups that they don't participate in actively (because they want to refer to old threads that they did participate in) and I have a couple of players who like to 'monitor' everything that goes on in-game.  I don't have a problem with that.  After all, they should all know the basics of what happened in the other threads when they get back to town, and they listen to the general gossip.  And I believe that Players are entitled to know who is 'lurking' in their threads

*shrugs* it is a communal / group game - even though I am in charge and the main creator.

But, why the need to get rid of the Groups  field, when (as you point out) there are other ways to find out that information?
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 354 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 20:01
Re: RPoL Design Update
JohnB:
But, why the need to get rid of the Groups  field, when (as you point out) there are other ways to find out that information?


I don't think that's what Locke was saying, JohnB. You were stating that you liked, as a player, to be able to see the people that were in *your* groups. Locke was pointing out (correctly) that there's a way to see who is in *your* groups without having Groups listed on the cast list - open a post in a thread for one of your groups, and you'll see every character that has access to that group at the bottom under the 'Make this post private' option.

So, yes, there is another way to find out what people are in *YOUR* groups.

What there isn't, without having it listed in the cast list, is a way to find out what people are in groups that you *AREN'T* in.

I can't see posts made to threads that are in groups that I don't have a character in, right? By the same token, what need is there to be able to tell that other characters can see posts that I can't? I can tell that you're a reasonable person, as most people that wind up in Development are, so I'm sure you're saying to yourself 'What does it matter?' because you - as a reasonable person - wouldn't abuse that knowledge.

Not every person is that reasonable. Not everyone is content to know that other characters might be doing something on the side that they aren't, or to not see that characters X, Y, and Z are all in the same group, and start looking for a reason why/try to figure out what those characters have in common that explains why they're all in the same group. People metagame, it's a sad fact of RPoL. Why make it easier?

Moreover, there's precedent already for hiding group information - see the Language Groups, or even just the game menu itself. There's nothing at all that lets me determine who has access to *my* language groups, not even a series of checkboxes at the bottom of the post page, much less seeing who has languages that I *don't* have. By the same token, someone that isn't in Group X won't see threads set in that Group on their game list at all, they have no idea it exists...until they see 'X' next to another character's name on the cast list and start wondering 'What's going on in Group X that I can't see?'

...so, what Locke asked, and I'll ask again is - what *need* is there for a player to know whether or not other characters might be in groups that said player *isn't* in?

This message was last edited by the user at 20:12, Mon 07 Dec 2020.

Zag24
 supporter, 660 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 20:13
Re: RPoL Design Update
Imagine running a Mafia game, where you have one group that is the Mafia group.  It's rather important that the people who are not in that group can't tell who is in it.

Hmm.  Maybe I'll run a Mafia game here on RPoL.
JohnB
 supporter, 2108 posts
 Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 20:27
Re: RPoL Design Update
*grin*  I have said my bit.  That you guys don't like my reason or that you don't run or play games in the same way as I do - isn't my problem - and it is not something that I am going to debate  with you at length.

I come to RPoL to play games -  not fuss about how other people play games  :)  I am sure that Jase will make whatever decision HE thinks is best for the site and the vast majority of the people who use it.

PS:  I played in a Mafia game here once.  It didn't enjoy it much  *shrug*
Locke1221
 subscriber, 52 posts
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 22:24
Re: RPoL Design Update
@JohnB, I think we're passing in the night in regards to our arguments. I agree that a player should be able to see who is in their groups. I don't believe they need to see who is in another group that they are not.

I simply pointed out that there were alternative ways to see that other than the cast list showing the group listings to every player.

You're right, we don't all play the same way, but we do come here to debate in a civil fashion so that Jase has the ability to see what arguments exist on the site, especially when he specifically asked for feedback on this matter.
JohnB
 supporter, 2109 posts
 Demigod of the Stunties
Mon 7 Dec 2020
at 23:09
Re: RPoL Design Update
TBH -  I responded to

"With that in mind, however, I would like to request two compromises that I don't think anyone will disagree with (if you can make them happen)."

I wanted to point out that wasn't accurate, I disagreed with it *shrug* and that the people who come here to 'debate' aren't really representative of the RPoL community.  Discussion groups never are.  BUT, it got turned into something pushy with reams of 'argument'.  I get fed up with that quite quickly.

TBH, if I wanted to run a game where players didn't know who was in other groups - I would set up half-a-dozen fake groups and pop people into them at random.  I wouldn't even bother putting a port into the group -  but it would obscure  'secret' groups quite nicely.

There are other ways to manage your groups, without hiding anything.  *shrug*   :)
theseeker
 member, 30 posts
Fri 25 Dec 2020
at 20:30
Re: RPoL Design Update
Printing threads from the responsive site has significant difference to legacy. One thing I like about it, is that it will do a page break to start a post on a new page when it will not fit at the end of the current page. However, there is a, possibly related problem. It also truncates a post that will not completely fit on a single page. Instead of continuing on the a new page, the remaining content is just thrown away.

Another, more minor complaint, is that it includes the full menu page at the top. When printing, that should be suppressed.

So for now I switch (after making sure to log out) to the old site to print (to pdf).
Chernobyl
 supporter, 137 posts
 Area of desolate waste,
 Mutation Central.
Fri 1 Jan 2021
at 13:47
Re: RPoL Design Update
Love the responsive site in general. Wish that I had the option for the regular site to redirect to the responsive site if I had it selected in my profile.

Iím sure Iíve seen it before, but the cast screen is significantly worse as you canít see when a player last logged on without clicking each member one by one. The old one was way better.
jase
 admin, 3791 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 01:40
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 426):

I believe the roll links use square brackets to encapsulate the results.  The first "]" will close the private message as the old site is ignorant to embedded rolls.  Not much I can do about that without trying hack at the old site while it's in production, which is a risky proposition at best.


Due to ongoing performance issues with Perl (the pages with a ".cgi" extension) and also an overall desire to move to PHP (the pages with ".php"), I made the rash decision to rush moving game.cgi to game.php.  You should now find all game.php (which is the screen that lists the threads for each game) loads/renders faster (general testing shows down from around 0.7 seconds to under 0.3).

That page is the second most popular at 25% of all page views, so if you add the front page (which is top at 35%) then 60% of all our page hits are now PHP.

The responsive site is essentially the second level of testing (lucky you!), with me being the one and only first tester.  I think I got everything migrated successfully but I hope you'll let me know if anything is amiss.  This is only relevant for game.php pages.  Though a simple post to write, the change was pretty heavy.

Other changes:
  • I also detected that a lot of pages were being rendered without a "doctype" which means some browsers were activating "quirks mode".  Quirks mode makes all sorts of old compatibility quirks happen.. basically some layout tweaks/oddities.
  • On top of this I also tweaked some font sizes and some padding/spacing.
  • Added red notification text to the "rMail" top nav menu on new rMail.  The additional menu block that comes up has stayed.
  • Additionally a check for new rMail is now performed when on the game menu (and will alert the same as above).
  • Further changes to the cast list based on feedback, tried to find the best possible compromise.
  • Printing a page removes the navigation, side and footer menus, page navigation row, up/down arrows.  Additionally sets the post information and content to be one after the other and also tries to keep an entire post on one page whenever possible.
  • Goodness knows what else I've messed with and "tweaked"!


Regarding the quirks mode fixes -- If you see any slight adjustments to page layouts then hopefully it's an improvement, if you think something has taken a turn for the worst then let me know.

This message was last edited by the user at 01:56, Sun 17 Jan.

Skald
 moderator, 923 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 05:14
Re: RPoL Design Update
Not sure if it's me or the update or it was happening before ...

On Responsive, just noticed if I view a thread in Technical Discussions and then go back to the forum menu, the unread flag is still present.  If I then go to the main menu it correctly shows no unread messages for that forum, but when I return to the Technical Discussions thread that unread flag is still there.

Reloaded old site and it all works fine there - unread flag cleared as expected when return to forum menu after viewing thread.

Technical Discussions just happened to be where I was at the time when I noticed it, don't know if problem extends elsewhere.

Win 10, Firefox 84.0.2.
jase
 admin, 3798 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 06:03
Re: RPoL Design Update
Haven't fallen into the trap of being logged into rpol.net at the same time, have you?

r.rpol.net sets cookies for the domain r.rpol.net while rpol.net (and the www variant) sets cookies for plain rpol.net.

Unfortunately when browsers retrieve settings for subdomains they'll also grab any cookies for the parent domain.  So when a webpage at r.rpol.net requests a list of the cookies it'll return a combination of r.rpol.net and rpol.net cookies.  As far as I can tell in a random order, and the order also seems to differ between PHP and Perl (though haven't done any testing on that).

So when the page asks for a list of the threads that have been read it can either use the cookie set for r.rpol.net (which is correct) or the cookie from rpol.net.

Furthermore we rationalise cookies as we go, but that uses the information we've grabbed from the browser to collate the relevant information and then trim the list.  So we can ask for the read indicator cookie, get the list from rpol.net (the wrong cookie), rationalise it and then set it for r.rpol.net.  Then we've got cookies set for r.rpol.net poisoned with what was retrieved from the rpol.net version of the cookie.

I've done a work-around for the beta site to avoid the cookie conflict but I can't do the same on the responsive site.  I suppose I could just use and set the cookies for rpol.net... will have to contemplate whether that'll cause any issues.  Can't actually think of any issue at the moment.
Skald
 moderator, 924 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 08:10
Re: RPoL Design Update
I did have both sites open the first time I noticed it, but subsequently closed the old site and retried a couple of times and couldn't get the flag to close ... but it might have been too late by then if the cookie had already been broken ?

Edit: just had a new forum thread pop up and have been able to open and view and clear flag on responsive ... so yup, jase is right yet again, it's the old/new/simultaneous trap.  Something to ignore.  ;>

This message was last edited by the user at 14:12, Sun 17 Jan.

SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 357 posts
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 17:00
Re: RPoL Design Update
In reply to jase (msg # 464):

Thanks for all the updates, jase, especially the new red rMail notification.

I do feel that the player-view cast list is a step backwards, since it returns Last Login to being automatically viewable (when it previously required a mouseover on responsive), but I appreciate the removal of the groups from the automatic list so I suppose it's a wash in the end. I'll just have to accept that I'm in the minority about wanting stuff less obvious to players, and deal, I guess. =)

(Any kind of rough ETA on having PMs trip Last Logins for GM-controlled characters?)

As a complete aside, just noticed an interesting glitch with the Last Post for characters that have never posted publicly...

quote:
Wed, 31 Dec '69

This message was last edited by the user at 17:06, Sun 17 Jan.

Locke1221
 subscriber, 53 posts
Sun 17 Jan 2021
at 17:19
Re: RPoL Design Update
Thanks for the updates Jase, I imagine it's been busy and I appreciate the effort.

Acknowledging that I'm in the minority in regards to last login as well, I do have to say that the current bareness of the Cast List, showing -only- last login and last post is jarring and not terribly attractive.

I also have to put a request forward for Tag to return to being automatically displayed. In my current military games, I use those for player rank, and find that being obvious rather than the players having to mouse over for the dropdown to be far advantageous. I feel like I'm probably not the only one who uses it in some way that feels like it's more integral to the game than either login or last post.

Is there any possibility of GMs getting to select what is visible for their games? Not knowing what sort of coding that would require, I can understand it not being so, but it sounds like a great compromise if it is.
jase
 admin, 3799 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 18 Jan 2021
at 04:37
Re: RPoL Design Update
Forgot to put in my last change notes, posting a private message now updates your "last post" (which will also affect last logon).  A post is a post, just because everyone doesn't have access to it doesn't negate that's the date of your last post.

As for the cast list, I don't disagree that's it's pretty bare now.  That's the problem when we enlarge the font and also start to care about not having some crazy squished view on narrower views.  The only thing I could possibly squeeze in is post count.  Tags can be long and I'm pretty sure it will cause issue if the tag is near maximum length (though I'll double-check).
jase
 admin, 3800 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 18 Jan 2021
at 15:13
Re: RPoL Design Update
Try the cast page now.
  • Changed the way each cell/block is rendered, which will make text wrap rather than potentially overlap other text.  On really narrow screens (or a very long name with no spaces) it'll force the screen to scroll left/right.
  • To give us more room I removed the weekday from the date of last post/logon.
  • Added both post count and character tag columns.  Groups are still hidden (until mouse over/tap).
  • The post count column will automatically hide on small screens (695 pixel with and lower) and instead appear under the mouse/tap section.

Also fixed the 1969/1970 post date (depending on your time zone).  (c;

This message was last edited by the user at 15:19, Mon 18 Jan.

SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 358 posts
Mon 18 Jan 2021
at 15:23
Re: RPoL Design Update
Thanks for putting the tags back, jase! \ o /

In regards to PMs tripping last logins...that's not currently working. =( Just tested, using a GM-controlled character and a regular character, and the PM didn't trip Last Post for either, or Last Login for the GM-controlled character. (Obviously, the regular character tripped login like normally).