horus
 member, 401 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Sun 25 Feb 2018
at 14:30
Re: Is there a way?
steelsmiter:
I'm not a mod, but I'd like to respectfully ask that the greater substance of the different varieties of cards in your post and the one you were referencing be opened in another thread. I do of course have a bias in that regard, so take of that what you will.


Duly noted.  You're entirely correct:  further discussion on that line strays a bit from the actual topic here, which deals with Tarot.

Any further discussion on this line, if proven needful, will be pursued elsewhere.
Skald
 moderator, 801 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 13:12
Re: Is there a way?
That's what I like to see - sorted before I get here !  Thanks for that. <grins>

Yup, feature creep is one thing, but the custom cards suggestion is really another matter entirely.  For what it's worth, my opinion is that the copyright problem will be a killer, but as we've said that's a discussion for another thread.



Very good point about the reversed option taking the Tarot deck out to XD156 - anything else that needs to be taken into account ... from a quick look at wikipedia, it seems the occult deck with major/minor arcana is the most commonly used, though there's also some Italian, Italian-Portuguese and French gaming decks.

Even with just the occult deck, wiki suggests there's some variation in naming the suits, specifically batons/wands/rods/staves and coins/pentacles/disks.  Is there a more widely used/preferred term ?
steelsmiter
 member, 1854 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 14:55
Re: Is there a way?
The reddit post that prompted me to ask about this uses cups, swords, wands and pentacles, though I happen to know coins are often used instead of pentacles so either of those works for my purposes.
Utsukushi
 member, 1437 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Mon 26 Feb 2018
at 17:04
Re: Is there a way?
Reversals aren't that simple, though - it's not half and half.  If anything, you kind of decided that when you shuffle.  Also, it doesn't double the number of cards, because you're not going to have, say, The Moon, and The Moon Reversed, in the same draw, which could totally happen if you just double the size of the deck.  So from the system's side of things, that has to be, "Draw a card, then decide if it's reversed or not."

Really, it sounds a little cold, but ideally there would be a space to fill in, like, "% Reversed" when you draw.  Unfortunately, the open space that comes with different systems is already needed for "No of cards", so I don't know where you could put that.

If it needs to be just standard, I'd say maybe each card should have at most a 20% chance of being Reversed, but then again, that might just be the way I shuffle.  I always feel like they should be rare, so I don't turn very many.

Maybe at the beginning of any Tarot draw, the system could randomly generate a number from 5-25 and that would be the percent chance of a card being reversed in this set?

I actually like Staves and Coins best -- but for annotation purposes, since Swords and Cups are pretty standard, Pentacles and Wands is more useful since they start with different letters.
horus
 member, 402 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 02:14
Re: Is there a way?
Okay... since others are discussing matters for which I promised to open a separate thread, I guess I'd better get a-openin' one, huh?

The title of the new thread will speak for itself.   I'll copy any relevant stuff from here to that new thread.

Everyone:  thanks for cooperating with the original poster's wishes in this regard.

New thread is here:  link to a message in this forum

Mods:  feel free to slice/dice/fold/spindle/mutilate at need to meet RPoL editorial policy, and thanks!

This message was last edited by the user at 02:28, Tue 27 Feb 2018.

steelsmiter
 member, 1855 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 14:36
Re: Is there a way?
Utsukushi:
If it needs to be just standard, I'd say maybe each card should have at most a 20% chance of being Reversed, but then again, that might just be the way I shuffle.  I always feel like they should be rare, so I don't turn very many.

I don't really need reverses, but if I did, I'd hazard that on any shuffle, the faces are either up, down(reversed), left to right, or right to left, and each accounts for 25%, not 20%. I'd also hazard that half of those left to rights and right to lefts get turned up, and the other half down. Assuming reversed is down, that should suggest (25+12.5+12.5)%.
Utsukushi
 member, 1439 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 20:48
Re: Is there a way?
I'm not sure I follow you there.  You can't flip a card left-to-right without turning it over - they're either right-side-up or upside-down.  And you don't get cards sitting sideways in the deck.  And I can't make any other kind of sense out of that "left to right or right to left" thing.  If you're doing a reading, you might lay a card sideways (say, if you're Crossing, or for certain layouts), but you do that on purpose and it's still drawn either normal-or-reversed, not... left-to-right or folded into an origami crane or anything.

But when you're shuffling a deck of Tarot cards, you kind of have to deliberately turn some around.  They don't do it by themselves, there's no natural way of shuffling that does it accidentally, and there's even a convention that if you start dealing them out and most of them are coming up Reversed, then probably the deck was handed back backwards and you should turn everything over.

And I, at least, tend to only turn a few, and I think that's true for most people.  So that's where I get 20% tops, but really it would be better if it could be defined when you draw.  I just can't think where to put that.

Maybe that open field could use a comma?  So, like, "No. of cards, % reversed", so that you would enter, say, "12, 15" to draw 12 cards, each with a 15% chance of being reversed?  Or if you just put in "12", you'd get 12 cards and no reversing.  That's similar to the Manual Entry box, but probably confusing enough to need to be explained somewhere -- like, for example, that little line of text that also updates when you choose a system.  That might work.
steelsmiter
 member, 1856 posts
Tue 27 Feb 2018
at 21:09
Re: Is there a way?

This message was deleted by the user at 05:54, Wed 28 Feb 2018.

horus
 member, 409 posts
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 04:53
Re: Is there a way?

This message was deleted by the user at 05:27, Wed 28 Feb 2018.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15511 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 05:52
Re: Is there a way?
Actually I think you're over-thinking this.  You don't need to think of a way to perfectly simulate the laying out of a tarot spread, as doing so goes beyond the purpose of this site.

We aren't talking about using the tarot as an aid to meditation, or anything else, other than using it as a random number generator for RPGs.
horus
 member, 413 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 08:05
Re: Is there a way?
bigbadron:
Actually I think you're over-thinking this.  (snip)


Shyeah... that's why I deleted my last message.  If it's still there somewhere, nuke it, please.  It was the result of fatigue and way too much going on when I posted.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15514 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 1 Mar 2018
at 06:05
Re: Is there a way?
In reply to horus (msg # 31):

That's what happens when I post replies using my phone while I'm at work.  By the time I finish typing and hit the button, the message I'm replying to has been deleted.  :)

This message was last edited by the user at 06:07, Thu 01 Mar 2018.

horus
 member, 415 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 1 Mar 2018
at 08:41
Re: Is there a way?
bigbadron:
In reply to horus (msg # 31):

That's what happens when I post replies using my phone while I'm at work.  By the time I finish typing and hit the button, the message I'm replying to has been deleted.  :)


Wow... we were working at the same instant in time?  Heh...
Utsukushi
 member, 1441 posts
 I should really stay out
 of this, I know...but...
Thu 1 Mar 2018
at 15:56
Re: Is there a way?
I didn't see Horus's, but Steelsmiter's post was pretty awesome, I have to say, even if it left me feeling like I need to go spend like twenty minutes watching myself shuffle cards...

So, where are we at?  I think we were at, yes, adding a Tarot Deck to the decks of cards is probably a good idea, and from there, it would be really good if there's a way to set how likely they are to be Reversed?

Based on a comment from The Other Thread that still seems relevant here, I do think having a full deck and a Major Arcana Only deck would be useful -- a lot of game applications for Tarot cards, especially, do rely on only the Major Arcana because they're clearly the most fun.  And since we have regular cards differentiated just for with-and-without-Jokers, that seems totally reasonable without getting into the Fully Customizable discussion.
horus
 member, 416 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 1 Mar 2018
at 18:12
Re: Is there a way?
Utsukushi:
I didn't see Horus's, but Steelsmiter's post was pretty awesome, I have to say, even if it left me feeling like I need to go spend like twenty minutes watching myself shuffle cards...


Wasn't much to see in my post:  I drew a Celtic Cross layout to explain a concept (cards in "crossing" orientation in a layout) that really didn't require explanation on review of the post to which I was replying.
quote:
So, where are we at?  I think we were at, yes, adding a Tarot Deck to the decks of cards is probably a good idea, and from there, it would be really good if there's a way to set how likely they are to be Reversed?


And I think, based on earlier observations made, the way to go there is to randomize the deck itself, including any reversals, based on an algorithm that simulates cutting and shuffling the deck prior to the draw.  That does seem rather outside the scope of the dice roller as it presently stands, though.

Absent that, a simple Xd2 for each card drawn can settle that well enough for most purposes.  Each card drawn has only two possible states (Upright and Reversed), and, even if the usual method of cutting the deck introduces reversals at either a 1/3 or 2/3 rate (depending on the sequence of turns during the cut), eventually, since the deck is not "straightened" between readings, the probability of reversal actually is still 1/2 for any card drawn.

quote:
Based on a comment from The Other Thread that still seems relevant here, I do think having a full deck and a Major Arcana Only deck would be useful -- a lot of game applications for Tarot cards, especially, do rely on only the Major Arcana because they're clearly the most fun.  And since we have regular cards differentiated just for with-and-without-Jokers, that seems totally reasonable without getting into the Fully Customizable discussion.


Absolutely.  Having the Major and Minor Arcana and the unified deck separately available supports the full range of Tarot-related operations.  Given a way to sort out reversal states, the rest seems almost trivial coding-wise.
steelsmiter
 member, 1859 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Thu 1 Mar 2018
at 18:37
Re: Is there a way?
horus:
a simple Xd2 for each card drawn can settle that well enough for most purposes.


that goes beyond what I originally asked about it for, but I wouldn't begrudge it.

quote:
eventually, since the deck is not "straightened" between readings, the probability of reversal actually is still 1/2 for any card drawn.

and that's about the entirety of what I was trying to say in the post I deleted.

This message was last edited by the user at 18:39, Thu 01 Mar 2018.

jase
 admin, 3655 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 6 Aug 2019
at 14:01
Re: Is there a way?
Can someone list them out?  Then I can look at putting it in.  One card per line, punctuate/spell exactly how you want it to look on the result screen.  Thanks.
horus
 member, 832 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Tue 6 Aug 2019
at 16:39
Re: Is there a way?
I could do this tonight when I get home (getting ready to go to work).

There are two cards which can occupy "swapped" positions in the Major Arcana, but I'll cover that when I get there (the cards are VIII and XI)

In most conventional Tarot, VIII is Strength, while XI is Justice.  In some more, erm, arcane Tarot VIII is Justice (it's in balance) and XI is Strength (or Power).

I'd suggest a look like:

XI - Strength: {meaning here}
XI - Strength (Reversed):  {reversed meaning here}

and for the lesser Arcana:

Ace of Wands: {meaning here}
Ace of Wands (Reversed):  {reversed meaning here}

It might be wise to settle on which arrangement (arcana order) we want to use.  I'm cool with either one.
DaCuseFrog
 member, 66 posts
 SW Florida
Tue 6 Aug 2019
at 17:07
Re: Is there a way?
Here is a list of the cards in a Standard Rider-Waite deck.  I am not sure how everyone feels about the suit-naming conventions, but it is one of the most commonly used decks today.  I would say that the Reversed/Upright would be something that wouldn't be necessary for the deck itself.  It could be individually done by person, percentages to their own specifications (Reversed on a 1, rolling d2/d3/d4/d5/etc).  But that is just my opinion.  One thing that we should do is request two separate decks:  a full 78-card Tarot deck, and then the 22-card Major Arcana deck.  The Major Arcana deck would also work as a Deck of Many Things, of course, but has separate uses as well.

Tarot Deck - Major Arcana
0 - The Fool
I - The Magician
II - The High Priestess
III - The Empress
IV - The Emperor
V - The Hierophant
VI - The Lovers
VII - The Chariot
VIII - Strength
IX - The Hermit
X - Wheel of Fortune
XI - Justice
XII - The Hanged Man
XIII - Death
XIV - Temperance
XV - The Devil
XVI - The Tower
XVII - The Star
XVIII - The Moon
XIX - The Sun
XX - Judgement
XXI - The World

Tarot Deck - Full
0 - The Fool
I - The Magician
II - The High Priestess
III - The Empress
IV - The Emperor
V - The Hierophant
VI - The Lovers
VII - The Chariot
VIII - Strength
IX - The Hermit
X - Wheel of Fortune
XI - Justice
XII - The Hanged Man
XIII - Death
XIV - Temperance
XV - The Devil
XVI - The Tower
XVII - The Star
XVIII - The Moon
XIX - The Sun
XX - Judgement
XXI - The World
Ace of Wands
Two of Wands
Three of Wands
Four of Wands
Five of Wands
Six of Wands
Seven of Wands
Eight of Wands
Nine of Wands
Ten of Wands
Page of Wands
Knight of Wands
Queen of Wands
King of Wands
Ace of Cups
Two of Cups
Three of Cups
Four of Cups
Five of Cups
Six of Cups
Seven of Cups
Eight of Cups
Nine of Cups
Ten of Cups
Page of Cups
Knight of Cups
Queen of Cups
King of Cups
Ace of Swords
Two of Swords
Three of Swords
Four of Swords
Five of Swords
Six of Swords
Seven of Swords
Eight of Swords
Nine of Swords
Ten of Swords
Page of Swords
Knight of Swords
Queen of Swords
King of Swords
Ace of Pentacles
Two of Pentacles
Three of Pentacles
Four of Pentacles
Five of Pentacles
Six of Pentacles
Seven of Pentacles
Eight of Pentacles
Nine of Pentacles
Ten of Pentacles
Page of Pentacles
Knight of Pentacles
Queen of Pentacles
King of Pentacles

This message was last edited by the user at 06:06, Thu 08 Aug.

steelsmiter
 member, 2033 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Wed 7 Aug 2019
at 00:22
Re: Is there a way?
I forgot I even mentioned this, I'm glad some people have taken interest.
horus
 member, 833 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Wed 7 Aug 2019
at 06:22
Re: Is there a way?
DaCuseFrog's list is correct so far as it goes for the Rider-Waite and Tarots similar to it.

Builders of the Adytum, The Crowley Thoth Deck, the Brotherhood of Light tarot (which has a lovely Ancient Egyptian motif and a really in-depth book), and probably several others, do swap XI and VIII, making Justice (or its equivalent) VIII while Strength (or Lust) is XI.  In all cases I've seen, the reasons for this are numerological in origin.

Suits tend to take different names in the Minor Arcana:

Rods = Wands = Staves (= Clubs in a standard playing card deck)
Cups = any of several synonyms, depending on the deck (= Hearts)
Disks = Pentacles = Coins (= Diamonds)
Swords = Blades (= Spades)

(I can't remember clearly which deck I used to own that had Blades for Swords.  It was some unusual hippy-dippy deck that I bought because I found the artwork attractive.)

The most common names for the suits are:  Swords, Cups, Pentacles, and Wands.

I only know what I do about Tarot decks because I used to collect them.

Then, of course, there's the Amber Tarot...

I owe a list:


GENERIC TAROT (any with VIII and XI as shown below)

0     - The Fool
I     - The Magician
II    - The High Priestess
III   - The Empress
IV    - The Emperor
V     - The Hierophant
VI    - The Lovers
VII   - The Chariot
VIII  - Strength
IX    - The Hermit
X     - The Wheel of Fortune
XI    - Justice
XII   - The Hanged Man
XIII  - Death
XIV   - Temperance
XV    - The Devil
XVI   - The Tower
XVII  - The Star
XVIII - The Moon
XIX   - The Sun
XX    - Judgement
XXI   - The World
The Ace of Swords
The Two of Swords
The Three of Swords
The Four of Swords
The Five of Swords
The Six of Swords
The Seven of Swords
The Eight of Swords
The Nine of Swords
The Ten of Swords
The Page of Swords
The Knight of Swords
The Queen of Swords
The King of Swords
The Ace of Cups
The Two of Cups
The Three of Cups
The Four of Cups
The Five of Cups
The Six of Cups
The Seven of Cups
The Eight of Cups
The Nine of Cups
The Ten of Cups
The Page of Cups
The Knight of Cups
The Queen of Cups
The King of Cups
The Ace of Pentacles
The Two of Pentacles
The Three of Pentacles
The Four of Pentacles
The Five of Pentacles
The Six of Pentacles
The Eight of Pentacles
The Nine of Pentacles
The Ten of Pentacles
The Page of Pentacles
The Knight of Pentacles
The Queen of Pentacles
The King of Pentacles
The Ace of Wands
The Two of Wands
The Three of Wands
The Four of Wands
The Five of Wands
The Six of Wands
The Eight of Wands
The Nine of Wands
The Ten of Wands
The Page of Wands
The Knight of Wands
The Queen of Wands
The King of Wands


Now stripped of formatting, whitespace, etc.  Choose, everyone.

This message was last edited by the user at 06:09, Thu 08 Aug.

jase
 admin, 3661 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 8 Aug 2019
at 05:55
Re: Is there a way?
Can you please agree on which list I should use and just give me the name for each deck and the results for each, no headings, no extra fluff.

As in the 3DA thread.... Here's how I'd write up tossing a coin;

Name:  Coin toss
  1. Heads
  2. Tails

horus
 member, 834 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Thu 8 Aug 2019
at 06:05
Re: Is there a way?
In reply to jase (msg # 42):

Editing my original listing.  My error.  Please, everyone, choose.

This message was last edited by the user at 06:16, Thu 08 Aug.

DaCuseFrog
 member, 67 posts
 SW Florida
Thu 8 Aug 2019
at 06:07
Re: Is there a way?
I already edited mine to show the "generally" considered proper order of suits and changed titles to what I thought might be a good way to find them.

This message was last edited by the user at 06:09, Thu 08 Aug.

jase
 admin, 3663 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 8 Aug 2019
at 09:29
Re: Is there a way?
Thanks, added full and major arcana decks.  Available only on the responsive site (and beta test site).