jase
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Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 04:42
Re: View as player?
Nope!  Was this a game you're a GM in?
theseeker
 member, 17 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 05:08
Re: View as player?
In reply to jase (msg # 37):

No, just player.  Which was where my contribution to this thread started.  Players can send private lines too, and can use a little help managing them.

From context, I gather that was implemented for the GM only.
jase
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Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 13:08
Re: View as player?
I think it can be done easily enough (will have to go over the security implications) but I'm a little worried that while powerful it might end up cluttering the interface and/or confusing the average player.
Skald
 moderator, 862 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 13:31
Re: View as player?
Hadn't thought of it pertaining to players before now, but yes, players can post private lines to other players ...

... on brief reflection, don't both the player posting the private line and the character it's addressed too see the same thing ?

If you're talking about sending them a post in a language you know the character speaks, then fair enough, viewing as the other player would show the text and not the garbled version that non-speakers see, so you'd know you got the syntax right ... but I worry that's open to abuse as it'd be a trifling matter to test private lines with different languages and characters and work out who speaks what (not a lot of real benefit to doing that, but still).

Possibly what might work better is an automatic syntax checker ?  On the basis that the only real thing that can go wrong is if the player enters the private line manually and incorrectly ?  IE add a trap in the code when the user hits preview or post to review manually crafted private message coding and point out any obvious mistakes, eg 'opening and closing brackets don't match', 'missing colon' or 'no character of that name' ?  :>
theseeker
 member, 18 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 14:51
Re: View as player?
I do use preview as a bit of a syntax checker, but that is more to make sure I put the color tags in the right spot.  I do most of my (especially) initial post preparation in an offline editor, then copy/paste to the web form.  Being used to the RUBB syntax, I just type the markers as I go, instead of using the edit window on the site.

However, seeing the same thing as the character being addressed is only partially true.  Multiple characters see the posts, and want to preview what the general player sees, as well as what the target of a PM sees.  So at least 2 view: the target of a private line, and everybody else.
steelsmiter
 member, 2039 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
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Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 14:54
Re: View as player?
Skald:
Hadn't thought of it pertaining to players before now, but yes, players can post private lines to other players ...

... on brief reflection, don't both the player posting the private line and the character it's addressed too see the same thing ?

Yeah, but that's the problem. If dude 1 posts a message to dude 2, dude 1 and dude 2 see the same thing, but if the bracket's in the wrong place, dudette might see where the bracket cut off the private part and made it not so private.

quote:
Possibly what might work better is an automatic syntax checker ?  eg 'opening and closing brackets don't match', 'missing colon' or 'no character of that name' ?  :>


Won't fix things like brackets being correct but in the wrong place though.
CritFailure
 member, 3 posts
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 20:25
Re: View as player?
quote:
Coincidentally this thread has been moved to development 'cos now it's in testing!


This is better customer service than many of the things I have to pay for. I'm off to Patreon!
horus
 member, 845 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 22:25
Re: View as player?
steelsmiter:
Skald:
Hadn't thought of it pertaining to players before now, but yes, players can post private lines to other players ...

... on brief reflection, don't both the player posting the private line and the character it's addressed too see the same thing ?

Yeah, but that's the problem. If dude 1 posts a message to dude 2, dude 1 and dude 2 see the same thing, but if the bracket's in the wrong place, dudette might see where the bracket cut off the private part and made it not so private.

quote:
Possibly what might work better is an automatic syntax checker ?  eg 'opening and closing brackets don't match', 'missing colon' or 'no character of that name' ?  :>


Won't fix things like brackets being correct but in the wrong place though.


Um... entering Private and Secret Lines by hand is the usual source of such errors.  Using the tools in the way they were designed to be used, namely by using the menu system to enter these lines, eliminates the great majority of human errors.

If entering a large amount of secret or private text, try cutting and pasting such text into the menu window for the appropriate line type.  This assures that the brackets get placed correctly, and the character name is "correctly" spelled.  Misspelling a character name in such lines can have unintended effects (mainly, nobody but the GM can then see them).

One of the things I'm bad about is not using Preview as much as I should... I'm getting better, though.
theseeker
 member, 20 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 02:01
Re: View as player?
One of things where (just and only) using the web site tools to properly wrap the content with the secret or private tags is not sufficient, is accidentally including a closing bracket in the content.  That will close the section early, with no obvious warning there is something wrong.  I have sometimes caught it in preview, because the blocks normally have different colours.  But that is not 100%.  Viewing as person who should not be seeing the content would be much more obvious.
Skald
 moderator, 866 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 05:13
Re: View as player?
Yup, I'm as guilty as anyone of just typing the codes myself on the fly, rather than take my fingers off the keyboard to use the mouse, which means I do need to check the syntax carefully at the end, so I know where you're coming from.

Bracket in the wrong place ... I know what you mean now.  As a player posting a PM to another player, the preview be the same for you as it is for the intended recipient, whether the bracket closes too early or not (IE only the private text within the brackets will be coloured orange).

But if you could view your own post as any other player (ie other than the intended PM recipient) might see it, then that PM should not be showing for them.  Hadn't realised that was what you were after ... and yes, I agree that's a much more obvious way of checking the PM was as you intended.

But my concern is that this could be used to reveal who was in what Private Groups too - ie if you posted Elvish in a private line to another character, then you could preview as all the other characters to see if they could read it or not.
theseeker
 member, 21 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 06:14
Re: View as player?
I dont use languages so can not comment (much) on seeing what you should not in general, but for the specific case you describe, you would not see anything at all.  If the elvish text was in a private line to one character, viewing as a different character would not show anything all.  The complete private line content should just be gone, regardless of the language.

Now, potentially the problem would occur if putting the language content in a public block, not a private line.  Then `view as` character could show who knows the language.  If the view as included the language fix ups.  Like I said, I have not used languages in posts, so have not seen that case.  I was only thinking about the visible versus invisible content (and text style), not what else could change.
Skald
 moderator, 867 posts
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 I'm against it
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 06:19
Re: View as player?
Yup, talking language groups or private lines to language groups, where the lack of visibility or garbledness would reveal that another player didn't speak that language.
jase
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Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 08:49
Re: View as player?
The post screen is starting to get a little crowded and confusing with this, especially when you get really long character names (we've got some up to the max limit of 60 characters).  Only about 25 above 50 characters so I'll look at slowly trimming it down (probably to 30 characters, only 0.6% of character names are above that) but we've got to cater for them currently.

I'm wondering if it'd be best pushing to the actual preview screen.  Means one more step (preview and then change the previewing as) but can't really see many people previewing as someone else before previewing it as themselves first.  If you make a small edit tweak then you'd have to double preview, that's the only time I can see it being a bit frustrating, but then again I'd probably want to see what it looked for me as well as everyone else.

Will look at moving it and see what the feedback is.

Oh, and yes it'll be for non-GMs as well!

This message was last edited by the user at 09:47, Sat 24 Aug 2019.

jase
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Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 10:19
Re: View as player?
Ok, I've updated it over on at https://beta.rpol.net.  Needs some testing.

There was a security issue allowing players to view as other characters; private/language groups.  Currently there's no way to see who's in a private group, part of the charm.  So when previewing as someone else it could reveal who was in what group, who understood what language etc.

So... if a non-GM previews as someone else it'll automatically hide any private/secret lines that include/exclude a group and it will scramble all language lines.

That should preserve the security of those groups.. but that's what needs testing out!  Don't want to post the changes here until someone other than I has checked it's not going to open a loophole.

Also as part of this change I've moved the "preview as" option to the preview screen so don't be shocked when you initially find it missing.

Have also removed the post button from there as it's redundant, also could have been a little misleading as people could change the text below and then use the top post button (which posts what's in the preview, not what's in the compose area).
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 106 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 14:02
Re: View as player?
In case this question has already been answered and I couldn't find it, jase, what happens if you quote an older post (written by Not You) that has private lines to Another Player into your current post, and then preview it as that player?

Will it reveal private lines written by Not You to the player you are previewing as in the quoted portion?

(I peeked over onto the beta, but I'm undercaffeinated and can't think of how to test this without being able to access a game post that I know has private lines buried in it...)

This message was last edited by the user at 14:02, Sat 24 Aug 2019.

Skald
 moderator, 868 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 14:15
Re: View as player?
I think moving it to the preview area is a very good plan - personally I wouldn't have to preview as that often (only when it gets really complicated), so don't mind an extra click at that point to make the screen less cluttered for normal posting.  Good call. :>

I did notice when testing than in the post screen when testing language as a GM there's only one space after the colon, but two in the preview screen (cut and pasted to show I wasn't imagining it, and yes, it's just a very minor thing):

[Language Elvish: TEST]   <- Post
[Language Elvish:  TEST]  <- Preview

When testing posting as player I got, variously, in preview (and again, note double space after colon):

[Language Elvish:  TEST]  <- Assumedly speaks the language
[Language unknown:  TEST]  <-Assumedly doesn't speak the language

I'd expect both instances to return:

[Language Elvish:  TEST]

IE it shows the player what it should look like, but assumes everyone speaks that language so as not to reveal who does/doesn't speak it.   Could also return scrambled text whether player speaks the language or not, doesn't matter as long as it returns the same result for all.  As discussed, not a preview, but keeps language groups secret.
jase
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Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 15:33
Re: View as player?
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 51):

Simply; they get stripped out!  Always has been.  Or at least should be...  (c;


In reply to Skald (msg # 52):

Has that spacing issue been around forever?  Don't think I've changed that particular bit...  Have uploaded a little fix for it now though.

When a player is previewing as someone else all languages should be garbled.  So in both instances you should get "[Language unknown: HUFL]" (unless "TEST" is a known word).
Skald
 moderator, 869 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 05:15
Re: View as player?
Spacing issue ... probably was present on the old site, I just never noticed cos I wasn't looking for problems.  Fixed now on responsive, thank ye kindly, so we will never mention it again.  ;>

Previewing ...

Player me posted:

[Language Elf: May a light shine upon the hour of our meeting]

Previewed as everyone else and got:

[Language unknown: And o ivfiri tiicis not the ta ch ion ntiredint]

So definitely working now ... actually I think I was doing something wrong before, so my bad.  Flag that one as working too.  :>
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 307 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 02:36
Re: View as player?
Necroing this, because it seems related, so please don't beat me with a wet noodle if it isn't!

...but I just noticed that 'Preview as <player>' when writing as a GM on responsive, to check some secret lines, didn't actually give the player's view of the post with just their secret line visible. Should it have? I feel like it should have, from re-reading this thread, but I'm not 100% sure.
Skald
 moderator, 907 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 13:17
Re: View as player?
Yup, that was deliberate - jase addressed this in the Site Design thread:

jase:
Also don't forget part of the notice when previewing as someone else -- As a player previewing as another all private/secret lines to groups will be hidden and all languages will be scrambled regardless of the recipient -- this is deliberate otherwise you could find out who's in the private groups.

SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 308 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 13:33
Re: View as player?
Right, as a player previewing as another player.

But what about as a GM? This was previewing as a player, while being the GM, and it was just listing all of the secret lines as the GM saw them.

(If that's WAI, carry on - I'm just trying to make sure that it is or isn't!)

This message was last edited by the user at 13:35, Thu 20 Aug.

Skald
 moderator, 908 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 14:50
Re: View as player?
H'mmm, no, should work for GM - I've just tested in one of my games on Responsive with PM, Language and Secret in the test post and when previewing as different players one showed PM and scrambled Language, while the other showed scrambled Language and Secret, so displayed exactly as I'd expect those players to see it.

Did you enter the secret lines using the menu option ?  Wondering if a syntax error crept into manually entered text.

If you test a simple sample that doesn't work, post the string here and I'll try it myself.  :>
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 309 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 15:41
Re: View as player?
Was in my spouse's game, so I'll have to get them to test again later today when they're able in case it's something specific there, but to answer the questions that I can! (I know I comment a lot from the GM perspective, but I don't actually have any games of my own, I just play question-and-answer forum secretary for them.)

-The secret lines were entered via the 'Secret to' menu drop-down option, with the text put into each one copy-pasted into the little box.
-There were multiple secret lines (one for each player in the scene), all in succession without spaces between them so that (hopefully) there were no awkward blank spots in the finished post.
-The 'Preview as' option, no matter which player was selected (even ones not in the scene group at all, several were tried) revealed the full GM post with every secret line back-to-back with their little orange dots beneath them.
-The secret lines /did/ work from the perspective of the players, as far as can be told. As a player that didn't get a secret line, I don't see any of them, and some of the players have indicated clearly being able to see theirs. (Not all, but enough that I feel confident it worked properly in the thread. No one has said anything that makes me think otherwise.)
-This was using Chrome, on Responsive.

The only thing I can think, if it /should/ be working, is that it's something to do with the lack of spaces between the secret lines, maybe?
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 310 posts
Fri 21 Aug 2020
at 00:32
Re: View as player?
Figured out the problem, and I'm going to blame...well, I don't know what to blame. I feel a little stupid, now that I've figured it out, but at the same time it wasn't remotely intuitive.

We were setting the 'Preview as' option on the drop-down, and then hitting the primary 'Preview' button. I didn't even realize the 'Preview as' by the drop-down /was/ a button until just now. Whoops. <.<
Skald
 moderator, 909 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Fri 21 Aug 2020
at 13:51
Re: View as player?
<grins> No, don't feel too bad ... took me a second or two to realise I had to hit the Preview as button to trigger a refresh of the text.  This is what this forum is for - finding issues and making more work for jase suggesting improvements for the benefit of all.

Wonder if changing the drop down alone should trigger the refresh of the text (which I suggest cos that's what I thought would happen).  That way we'd have just the one Preview button and at the top of the screen it'd have a 'previewing as:' label followed by the drop down which contains all the GM and PC names.

Modify text and hit preview again and it would keep the same drop down value and refresh the text accordingly.

Soo ...

Write post
Click on Preview - defaults to show 'previewing as:' |GM    |V|
Change dropdown to another character - shows 'previewing as:' |Barad |V|
Edit post
Click on Preview - continues to show 'previewing as:' |Barad |V| but reflects the text changes (if they had any impact on what this character sees)
Change dropdown to another character - shows 'previewing as:' |Jannet|V|