jmurrell
 member, 71 posts
Wed 14 Aug 2019
at 22:24
View as player?
Is there a way for me as the GM to look at the game from  one of the players viewpoint??
Skald
 moderator, 857 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 13:37
View as player?
There isn't ... but it has been suggested as a desirable feature a few times over the years over in RPoL Development:

Dec 2010 link to a message in this forum
Jan 2013 link to a message in this forum
Dec 2013 link to a message in this forum
May 2015 link to a message in this forum
Sept 2015 link to a message in this forum

Bear in mind jase has a rather large list of desirable features that have been requested.  ;>
Bballref
 supporter, 34 posts
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 17:26
View as player?
Wouldn't you be able to accomplish this by logging out of RPoL and then searching for your game?  Seems to me this would give you a view that might be something close to a player's view ... unless you have folks in your game divided into different groups.
theseeker
 member, 9 posts
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 18:24
View as player?
What I would like, as a *player*, is to view a post (preview) I created as the recipient would.  To make sure that formatting was clean with embedded private sections.
donsr
 member, 1689 posts
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 20:29
View as player?
y ou have   'Private Lines' that may be inserted to  characters..and only they and the GM can read them.
evileeyore
 member, 201 posts
 GURPS GM and Player
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 21:21
Re: View as player?
theseeker:
What I would like, as a *player*, is to view a post (preview) I created as the recipient would.

you can, for everything except...

quote:
To make sure that formatting was clean with embedded private sections.

... for this.  This is the only thing you just have to trust is working correctly.  This and the Language Groups.  Language Groups and Private Lines... the two things you have to trust are Language Groups and Private Lines... and sizing.  The three things you have to trust are Private Lines, Language Groups, Font Effects... and Portrait Submissions... the four... no.. amongst the things... that are left to trust... are such elements as Private Lines, Language Groups...  I'll come in again.
theseeker
 member, 10 posts
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 21:26
View as player?
Right.  But that is mixed in with other public information and potentially private lines to other people.  I would like to see what the final result is for each different viewer: GM, specific player(s) in PM(s), everybody else.  It's the OCD kicking in.  Want to make sure it looks (flows) right for each reader.
donsr
 member, 1690 posts
Thu 15 Aug 2019
at 21:31
View as player?
that's a good idea. But I have  found, that  the  substance/story/interaction is what is important.

 I have seen game that  had   4 or  5 long posts with the   GM  stating   "how you will post"... I just walk away. I spent my Time in Lt class..don't need to  do it now.
theseeker
 member, 11 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 02:08
View as player?
Like I said.  OCD.  It's all in the details. :)
Imladir
 member, 9 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 02:13
View as player?
Security however isn't a detail.

Allowing someone to "view as a player" is either very close to allow the GM to "log as the player" at least in the current game, or a completely new functionality a bit too complex to implement for what it allows (or at least to have it at any other priority than very low).
theseeker
 member, 12 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 02:55
View as player?
Not view as player in general.  View as player only for the post currently being created, which make the viewer the owner.  Full edit access.  Should not be any security concerns in that context, since can see everything there anyway.  Just want to be able to turn off things that a selected person would not see when they view it.

It may not be easy/simple, but trying to make sure that the scope of is being actually suggested is being understood correctly.  This has nothing to with logging in as, or pretending to be a different player.  Just want to see the post being created the same way that the recipient would.  With any private line blocks applied.  Or spoiler, or font, or size, or   Preview does most of that, but not the private lines.
LonePaladin
 member, 843 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 03:04
View as player?
Maybe it should be added as a drop-down option to the Preview button? Something like "View as..." then a list of character names, maybe with a 'bystander' option so you can see how it would look to lurkers and anyone without player access.
Imladir
 member, 10 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 03:08
View as player?
Then there's no security concern, but it's a (potentially very) complex thing to do for basically...nothing.

I'm not saying you wouldn't like, or find it interesting. But spend long hours on something that basically doesn't achieve much of anything.

It's not impossible to do, it's not the hardest thing to do. But when you compare what it costs vs what it brings... It's typically the kind of things you put in the list of "Things to do when I want to take a pause from the important stuff, but that I probably won't ever do".
facemaker329
 member, 7116 posts
 Gaming for over 30
 years, and counting!
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 05:45
View as player?
I suspect that's a large part of why it's been suggested five(?) times before and still hasn't been implemented.  It's a significant undertaking with a very limited payoff in terms of affecting the overall functionality of the game, and it's highly likely that a lot of players wouldn't use it even if it was there (I mean, I know that in the games I'm in that a lot of people don't bother with the 'preview' feature that's already in place, most of the time...making a more elaborate version of it isn't likely to change that significantly.)
jase
 admin, 3671 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 09:43
View as player?
Maybe it's rude but it always gives me a giggle that we can't imagine what it'll look like... aren't we all here to use our imagination?  (c;

Anyway, I don't have much constructive to add to the conversation except that it is on the to-do list.  I'm not sure I can claim it being very high up the list as it would be a fair bit of work and previously I've had people say they want to make sure the code is going to do the right thing.  I already know the code's going to do the right thing... and using one piece of code to check on another piece of code seems a little.. uh.. illogical..?  (I understand there's been other reasons presented in this thread.)

Though I admit now I'm intrigued as to whether I can come up with a simple piece of impersonation code and I do like a challenge.
Low Key
 member, 230 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 09:49
View as player?
I do use the preview button

As a GM I'd use this function
And I'd like to be able to view as other players when I'm posting as a player and I'm using Private Lines

Not because I can't imagine what it should look like
Or because I don't trust the site to do what I ask
But because I don't trust myself to ask the code to do what I actually want it to do.
I am fallible. And once I know what I want something to say, it can be hard to notice when it doesn't. It's why I get other people to proof read things for me.
Just using colour tags for text, I often have to fix stuff after previewing because I've made a mistake.
With private lines I can't see those mistakes, so I don't know they need fixing.

This message was last edited by the user at 09:52, Fri 16 Aug 2019.

theseeker
 member, 13 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 17:34
Re: View as player?
Low Key:
I do use the preview button

But because I don't trust myself to ask the code to do what I actually want it to do.

Bullseye
donsr
 member, 1691 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 18:49
Re: View as player?
each to thier  own.. substance  is  better  then window  dressing.
Ski-Bird
 subscriber, 30 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 20:42
Re: View as player?
I think this would be neat as a way of proofreading a highly modified post, but can totally understand the difficulty / hesitance to implement.

The OP's question was straightforward  and for the most part very quickly and succinctly answered.

For a technical forum though, the replies in the vein of 'It's not how I play, so it doesn't matter' were less than helpful.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 101 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 20:53
Re: View as player?
Low Key:
As a GM I'd use this function
And I'd like to be able to view as other players when I'm posting as a player and I'm using Private Lines

I think there's a potential risk with viewing as other players, because what happens if you can't limit the preview to just the ONE post that's being written?

It would be a breach of at the very least trust if you could set your viewpoint to be Player X's, even temporarily, and go through and wind up with access to private lines to them in posts OTHER than the ones you've written.*

I'm down with the GM being able to look at their game and see what the players see - although I see the most value of that with actually being the login times, not the posts themselves - but I'm not sure I can get behind a player being able to switch their viewpoint to that of another player.

*- Edit: Or other things that would be detrimental - For example, if you could set your viewpoint to another player's, and then view the cast list, you could tell which characters they are controlling (because your own characters don't show an 'rMail' option on the cast list).

This message was last edited by the user at 20:57, Fri 16 Aug 2019.

jmurrell
 member, 72 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 20:56
Re: View as player?
Well my question has indeed been answered. Mainly I wanted as the GM, and only as the GM, to be able to check that I had the language groups correct.
Low Key
 subscriber, 231 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 21:44
Re: View as player?
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 20):

If it's the ability to preview as a specified player then I can only see posts I've written, because I can only preview posts I've written.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 102 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 22:12
Re: View as player?
In reply to Low Key (msg # 22):

Yes, I know that's the intent, and I know that Jase is very good at what he does... but it seems to me that the potential downsides if it doesn't work exactly as it's supposed to could far outweigh the benefits to having it implemented.

As a player, you can already see what's in a private line to another player that you wrote in a preview. You can already see the formatting for it, even - the only difference is whether or not the brackets are white or orange. (If you wrote it, they're white - if you're reading it, they're orange.) The spaces are the same, the text is the same, however you formatted it (if you formatted it) is the same. If you trust in Jase's coding and use the 'Insert a private line' option, it'll work as it's supposed to every time. If you're inserting them by hand and don't trust yourself, well... maybe start using the button option? Either way, the private line literally looks the same to you as it does to the player it's being sent to... except for the bracket color. That's not a lot of value for adding it.

*IF* this preview option didn't work perfectly for just the single post that you were writing, and accidentally allowed you to "spoof" the game into thinking you were someone else past the preview page, you could out people as playing characters you didn't know they were playing, or read other private lines to them in other messages, or maybe even access their PMs. That's potentially a lot of risky downside.

A GM, on the other hand, can get a lot of bang for their buck by being able to look at the game as a player/preview posts as a player, because they have special tools (such as Secret Lines) that DO actually show up differently for the target than they do for the author, and have a login list that looks different than a player's does. Moreover, there's no risk of accidentally exposing a GM to information they shouldn't have because literally every bit of information (such as who plays what character, and all private lines, PMs, etc) is already available to the GM because it's their game. Ergo, more potential upside without any downside.

/shrug
Low Key
 subscriber, 232 posts
Sat 17 Aug 2019
at 06:48
Re: View as player?
Sure, but this is technical discussions, not RPoL development :)

Jase (and others) were unsure why anyone would want/need/use this.
I was saying if it worked the way I said it worked I would want/use this.
Obviously if it was different that'd be different.
I wasn't trying to vote on the relative merits of, or potential problems with, the idea because this is not the forum designed to do that.

I'd use this feature, as both player and GM, if it existed.
Do I think it should exist? That's a different question for a different forum.
jase
 admin, 3672 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 17 Aug 2019
at 09:45
Re: View as player?
Coincidentally this thread has been moved to development 'cos now it's in testing!

Can be previewed on the beta site at https://beta.rpol.net.

Will only be available on the responsive site when it becomes available.  Another carrot to use that site.  (c;

Needs testing first, which is what you and the beta site are for!
Skald
 moderator, 858 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 18 Aug 2019
at 13:26
Re: View as player?
<grrins> He likes a challenge !  ;>

I occasionally build multiple layers of Secret to messages and it's nice to be able to check I've got the line spacing and sentence spacing right so it doesn't look anything other than seamless to the players.  We don't want them suspecting anything.

And very, very nice it is too ... worked fine for me for both private and secret messages to different players.  And all three language options.

It didn't seem 100% intuitive to switch back from previewing as player to preview as GM, though I finally worked out I could do that by setting the option back to the explanatory text "Preview this post as:"  ... could I suggest we stick "Preview as:"  (shorter wording to save space) as a label to the left of the dropdown, and make GM the first option (or the GM's alias) in the dropdown ?  :>

EDIT: Just spotted the note at the top of the screen which I didn't notice the first few times I tested "You are previewing this post from the perspective of <selected character>, press "Preview" again to remove this filter."

That would probably help the more observant among us ... I still like the idea of having GM on the list, but onscreen prompt/instruction is also helpful.  I vote for both !  ;>

This message was last edited by the user at 13:40, Sun 18 Aug 2019.

LonePaladin
 member, 844 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Sun 18 Aug 2019
at 17:04
Re: View as player?
Secret Lines is an underappreciated feature here, to my knowledge this is the ONLY PbP site that has it. I've used it to differentiate info given to players (say, to account for enhanced vision), or to instill paranoia, or just to have something that one player notices but not in a way that tells them the others might not have seen it.

Really, the degrees of GM control, especially with giving and concealing information, keep RPoL on the top of the pile. I shill for the site regularly, and go on at length about these features.
jase
 admin, 3675 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 19 Aug 2019
at 01:58
Re: View as player?
Guilty as charged, I got suckered in by the challenge!  Was relatively easy in the end 'cos I thought of a tricky way to do it.  Probably needs to be tidied up at some stage but that'll just be me fiddling.

Skald:
could I suggest we stick "Preview as:"  (shorter wording to save space) as a label to the left of the dropdown

That's going to make the line even longer and it starts to have cramping/flow issues on thinner browser widths (we've also got to cater for some very long character names).  Maybe leave it as is but the first selection is "Preview as: (GM)" or something similar.

LonePaladin:
Secret Lines is an underappreciated feature here
...
I shill for the site regularly, and go on at length about these features.

Pretty sure private lines weren't being used anywhere until we thought of it here in 2000, but a largely moot point now as its widely copied now.  I'm sure we've copied other features around too.  But I digress.

This kind of stuff (while also nice to hear) is good to know as to what sets us apart from other sites.  We need to come up with some more cunning ideas that would be amazing to have.  That nobody else has would also be neat.  (c;
Skald
 moderator, 859 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Mon 19 Aug 2019
at 14:26
Re: View as player?
jase:
That's going to make the line even longer and it starts to have cramping/flow issues on thinner browser widths (we've also got to cater for some very long character names).  Maybe leave it as is but the first selection is "Preview as: (GM)" or something similar.

Good point !  Lots of space on my desktop, but yes need to allow for mobiles too.

I think we could simplify even further with "Preview as ?" as the first list item, then add GM as the second ?   Actually I'd love to make that dynamic so the ? was replaced by the selection, giving us:

|Preview as GM:       |V|
 Player A
 Player B
 Player C

Becoming:

|Preview as Player A: |V|
 GM
 Player B
 Player C

BUT player names are going to be too long, so we'd run into the same spacing issues.
jase
 admin, 3677 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 04:52
Re: View as player?
I was resetting the "preview as" option every time it was used, thought it best to default it to off... but can easily set it to the last used option.

Speaking of, I'd leave the first selection as "Preview as: GM" but if wanted to keep the last used option selected then that can be the active option on the list.

I can see merits to having it either default the standard GM view and also to being whoever you picked last.  The current system (and notice at the top) is around defaulting back to GM each time.
LonePaladin
 member, 847 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 04:54
Re: View as player?
Why not make that an option you can change in your Preferences page?
jase
 admin, 3679 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 09:33
Re: View as player?
Unless opinions are really divided I'd rather not make it an option.  Seems an unnecessary additional complication (for users and for me!), plus it'll use an option "slot" for something that's only for GMs.. and something pretty niche at that.
Skald
 moderator, 860 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 13:29
Re: View as player?
When I was testing, I would have preferred preview to stick with last selection so I could edit and then single click to preview again, and I suppose if a post has so many private/secret messages or language options, the most likely requirement is that I'd either need to fix a problem and preview again for the same player OR preview again for a different player ... in neither case does setting it back to GM help.

But for 99% of posts, since the button would load as Preview GM, I'd not need to change it.

Yes, I think stick with last selection would be the best, but can't see any benefit in having it as a preferences setting - no matter what I set the preference to you can bet the next time I used it it'd be the wrong one !  <grins>

H'mm ... I'm still grasping at straws in relation to tweaking the layout. I'd like to promise this is my last try. :>   COULD we move the preview button to the other side of the dropdown box ?  Sounds odd, but I think it'd make it more intuitive with a slight relabel:

| Preview/Delay as |  | GM         |V|   |  Post  |
                        Player A
                        Player B
                        Player C

Replacing the "Post" with "as" reduces the Preview button width by a couple of chars so actually saves space.  :>

Actcherly ... can you detect if Javascript is enabled ?  If you can and it isn't then don't need the /Delay wording.
jase
 admin, 3680 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 14:55
Re: View as player?
I thought about moving it to the right of the preview button but the issue with that is that it'll change the location of the button depending on how long the character names are.  I think it's better to have it to the left even though it does mean we can't use that particular layout.

I've uploaded the code to the responsive site (no longer just on the beta site), see how it works for you.  Default is who you last viewed, I've changed the notice message to reflect the change.
Skald
 moderator, 861 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Wed 21 Aug 2019
at 13:50
Re: View as player?
But, but, but ... nah, looked, tested and admired on Responsive ... and I'm pefickly happy with that, thank ye kindly.  <grins>
theseeker
 member, 16 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 03:59
Re: View as player?
jase:
I've uploaded the code to the responsive site (no longer just on the beta site), see how it works for you.  Default is who you last viewed, I've changed the notice message to reflect the change.

Did something get rolled back?  I went to test this, and got just the old `preview` button.  No options.  I logged out, cleared cookies, and tried again.  Same thing.  on r dot rpol dot net.
jase
 admin, 3684 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 04:42
Re: View as player?
Nope!  Was this a game you're a GM in?
theseeker
 member, 17 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 05:08
Re: View as player?
In reply to jase (msg # 37):

No, just player.  Which was where my contribution to this thread started.  Players can send private lines too, and can use a little help managing them.

From context, I gather that was implemented for the GM only.
jase
 admin, 3685 posts
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 Carpe stultus!
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 13:08
Re: View as player?
I think it can be done easily enough (will have to go over the security implications) but I'm a little worried that while powerful it might end up cluttering the interface and/or confusing the average player.
Skald
 moderator, 862 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 13:31
Re: View as player?
Hadn't thought of it pertaining to players before now, but yes, players can post private lines to other players ...

... on brief reflection, don't both the player posting the private line and the character it's addressed too see the same thing ?

If you're talking about sending them a post in a language you know the character speaks, then fair enough, viewing as the other player would show the text and not the garbled version that non-speakers see, so you'd know you got the syntax right ... but I worry that's open to abuse as it'd be a trifling matter to test private lines with different languages and characters and work out who speaks what (not a lot of real benefit to doing that, but still).

Possibly what might work better is an automatic syntax checker ?  On the basis that the only real thing that can go wrong is if the player enters the private line manually and incorrectly ?  IE add a trap in the code when the user hits preview or post to review manually crafted private message coding and point out any obvious mistakes, eg 'opening and closing brackets don't match', 'missing colon' or 'no character of that name' ?  :>
theseeker
 member, 18 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 14:51
Re: View as player?
I do use preview as a bit of a syntax checker, but that is more to make sure I put the color tags in the right spot.  I do most of my (especially) initial post preparation in an offline editor, then copy/paste to the web form.  Being used to the RUBB syntax, I just type the markers as I go, instead of using the edit window on the site.

However, seeing the same thing as the character being addressed is only partially true.  Multiple characters see the posts, and want to preview what the general player sees, as well as what the target of a PM sees.  So at least 2 view: the target of a private line, and everybody else.
steelsmiter
 member, 2039 posts
 BESM, Fate, Indies, PBTA
 NO FREEFORM! NO d20!
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 14:54
Re: View as player?
Skald:
Hadn't thought of it pertaining to players before now, but yes, players can post private lines to other players ...

... on brief reflection, don't both the player posting the private line and the character it's addressed too see the same thing ?

Yeah, but that's the problem. If dude 1 posts a message to dude 2, dude 1 and dude 2 see the same thing, but if the bracket's in the wrong place, dudette might see where the bracket cut off the private part and made it not so private.

quote:
Possibly what might work better is an automatic syntax checker ?  eg 'opening and closing brackets don't match', 'missing colon' or 'no character of that name' ?  :>


Won't fix things like brackets being correct but in the wrong place though.
CritFailure
 member, 3 posts
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 20:25
Re: View as player?
quote:
Coincidentally this thread has been moved to development 'cos now it's in testing!


This is better customer service than many of the things I have to pay for. I'm off to Patreon!
horus
 member, 845 posts
 Wayfarer of the
 Western Wastes
Fri 23 Aug 2019
at 22:25
Re: View as player?
steelsmiter:
Skald:
Hadn't thought of it pertaining to players before now, but yes, players can post private lines to other players ...

... on brief reflection, don't both the player posting the private line and the character it's addressed too see the same thing ?

Yeah, but that's the problem. If dude 1 posts a message to dude 2, dude 1 and dude 2 see the same thing, but if the bracket's in the wrong place, dudette might see where the bracket cut off the private part and made it not so private.

quote:
Possibly what might work better is an automatic syntax checker ?  eg 'opening and closing brackets don't match', 'missing colon' or 'no character of that name' ?  :>


Won't fix things like brackets being correct but in the wrong place though.


Um... entering Private and Secret Lines by hand is the usual source of such errors.  Using the tools in the way they were designed to be used, namely by using the menu system to enter these lines, eliminates the great majority of human errors.

If entering a large amount of secret or private text, try cutting and pasting such text into the menu window for the appropriate line type.  This assures that the brackets get placed correctly, and the character name is "correctly" spelled.  Misspelling a character name in such lines can have unintended effects (mainly, nobody but the GM can then see them).

One of the things I'm bad about is not using Preview as much as I should... I'm getting better, though.
theseeker
 member, 20 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 02:01
Re: View as player?
One of things where (just and only) using the web site tools to properly wrap the content with the secret or private tags is not sufficient, is accidentally including a closing bracket in the content.  That will close the section early, with no obvious warning there is something wrong.  I have sometimes caught it in preview, because the blocks normally have different colours.  But that is not 100%.  Viewing as person who should not be seeing the content would be much more obvious.
Skald
 moderator, 866 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 05:13
Re: View as player?
Yup, I'm as guilty as anyone of just typing the codes myself on the fly, rather than take my fingers off the keyboard to use the mouse, which means I do need to check the syntax carefully at the end, so I know where you're coming from.

Bracket in the wrong place ... I know what you mean now.  As a player posting a PM to another player, the preview be the same for you as it is for the intended recipient, whether the bracket closes too early or not (IE only the private text within the brackets will be coloured orange).

But if you could view your own post as any other player (ie other than the intended PM recipient) might see it, then that PM should not be showing for them.  Hadn't realised that was what you were after ... and yes, I agree that's a much more obvious way of checking the PM was as you intended.

But my concern is that this could be used to reveal who was in what Private Groups too - ie if you posted Elvish in a private line to another character, then you could preview as all the other characters to see if they could read it or not.
theseeker
 member, 21 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 06:14
Re: View as player?
I dont use languages so can not comment (much) on seeing what you should not in general, but for the specific case you describe, you would not see anything at all.  If the elvish text was in a private line to one character, viewing as a different character would not show anything all.  The complete private line content should just be gone, regardless of the language.

Now, potentially the problem would occur if putting the language content in a public block, not a private line.  Then `view as` character could show who knows the language.  If the view as included the language fix ups.  Like I said, I have not used languages in posts, so have not seen that case.  I was only thinking about the visible versus invisible content (and text style), not what else could change.
Skald
 moderator, 867 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 06:19
Re: View as player?
Yup, talking language groups or private lines to language groups, where the lack of visibility or garbledness would reveal that another player didn't speak that language.
jase
 admin, 3692 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 08:49
Re: View as player?
The post screen is starting to get a little crowded and confusing with this, especially when you get really long character names (we've got some up to the max limit of 60 characters).  Only about 25 above 50 characters so I'll look at slowly trimming it down (probably to 30 characters, only 0.6% of character names are above that) but we've got to cater for them currently.

I'm wondering if it'd be best pushing to the actual preview screen.  Means one more step (preview and then change the previewing as) but can't really see many people previewing as someone else before previewing it as themselves first.  If you make a small edit tweak then you'd have to double preview, that's the only time I can see it being a bit frustrating, but then again I'd probably want to see what it looked for me as well as everyone else.

Will look at moving it and see what the feedback is.

Oh, and yes it'll be for non-GMs as well!

This message was last edited by the user at 09:47, Sat 24 Aug 2019.

jase
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Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 10:19
Re: View as player?
Ok, I've updated it over on at https://beta.rpol.net.  Needs some testing.

There was a security issue allowing players to view as other characters; private/language groups.  Currently there's no way to see who's in a private group, part of the charm.  So when previewing as someone else it could reveal who was in what group, who understood what language etc.

So... if a non-GM previews as someone else it'll automatically hide any private/secret lines that include/exclude a group and it will scramble all language lines.

That should preserve the security of those groups.. but that's what needs testing out!  Don't want to post the changes here until someone other than I has checked it's not going to open a loophole.

Also as part of this change I've moved the "preview as" option to the preview screen so don't be shocked when you initially find it missing.

Have also removed the post button from there as it's redundant, also could have been a little misleading as people could change the text below and then use the top post button (which posts what's in the preview, not what's in the compose area).
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 106 posts
Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 14:02
Re: View as player?
In case this question has already been answered and I couldn't find it, jase, what happens if you quote an older post (written by Not You) that has private lines to Another Player into your current post, and then preview it as that player?

Will it reveal private lines written by Not You to the player you are previewing as in the quoted portion?

(I peeked over onto the beta, but I'm undercaffeinated and can't think of how to test this without being able to access a game post that I know has private lines buried in it...)

This message was last edited by the user at 14:02, Sat 24 Aug 2019.

Skald
 moderator, 868 posts
 Whatever it is,
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Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 14:15
Re: View as player?
I think moving it to the preview area is a very good plan - personally I wouldn't have to preview as that often (only when it gets really complicated), so don't mind an extra click at that point to make the screen less cluttered for normal posting.  Good call. :>

I did notice when testing than in the post screen when testing language as a GM there's only one space after the colon, but two in the preview screen (cut and pasted to show I wasn't imagining it, and yes, it's just a very minor thing):

[Language Elvish: TEST]   <- Post
[Language Elvish:  TEST]  <- Preview

When testing posting as player I got, variously, in preview (and again, note double space after colon):

[Language Elvish:  TEST]  <- Assumedly speaks the language
[Language unknown:  TEST]  <-Assumedly doesn't speak the language

I'd expect both instances to return:

[Language Elvish:  TEST]

IE it shows the player what it should look like, but assumes everyone speaks that language so as not to reveal who does/doesn't speak it.   Could also return scrambled text whether player speaks the language or not, doesn't matter as long as it returns the same result for all.  As discussed, not a preview, but keeps language groups secret.
jase
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Sat 24 Aug 2019
at 15:33
Re: View as player?
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 51):

Simply; they get stripped out!  Always has been.  Or at least should be...  (c;


In reply to Skald (msg # 52):

Has that spacing issue been around forever?  Don't think I've changed that particular bit...  Have uploaded a little fix for it now though.

When a player is previewing as someone else all languages should be garbled.  So in both instances you should get "[Language unknown: HUFL]" (unless "TEST" is a known word).
Skald
 moderator, 869 posts
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Sun 25 Aug 2019
at 05:15
Re: View as player?
Spacing issue ... probably was present on the old site, I just never noticed cos I wasn't looking for problems.  Fixed now on responsive, thank ye kindly, so we will never mention it again.  ;>

Previewing ...

Player me posted:

[Language Elf: May a light shine upon the hour of our meeting]

Previewed as everyone else and got:

[Language unknown: And o ivfiri tiicis not the ta ch ion ntiredint]

So definitely working now ... actually I think I was doing something wrong before, so my bad.  Flag that one as working too.  :>
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 307 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 02:36
Re: View as player?
Necroing this, because it seems related, so please don't beat me with a wet noodle if it isn't!

...but I just noticed that 'Preview as <player>' when writing as a GM on responsive, to check some secret lines, didn't actually give the player's view of the post with just their secret line visible. Should it have? I feel like it should have, from re-reading this thread, but I'm not 100% sure.
Skald
 moderator, 907 posts
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Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 13:17
Re: View as player?
Yup, that was deliberate - jase addressed this in the Site Design thread:

jase:
Also don't forget part of the notice when previewing as someone else -- As a player previewing as another all private/secret lines to groups will be hidden and all languages will be scrambled regardless of the recipient -- this is deliberate otherwise you could find out who's in the private groups.

SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 308 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 13:33
Re: View as player?
Right, as a player previewing as another player.

But what about as a GM? This was previewing as a player, while being the GM, and it was just listing all of the secret lines as the GM saw them.

(If that's WAI, carry on - I'm just trying to make sure that it is or isn't!)

This message was last edited by the user at 13:35, Thu 20 Aug.

Skald
 moderator, 908 posts
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Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 14:50
Re: View as player?
H'mmm, no, should work for GM - I've just tested in one of my games on Responsive with PM, Language and Secret in the test post and when previewing as different players one showed PM and scrambled Language, while the other showed scrambled Language and Secret, so displayed exactly as I'd expect those players to see it.

Did you enter the secret lines using the menu option ?  Wondering if a syntax error crept into manually entered text.

If you test a simple sample that doesn't work, post the string here and I'll try it myself.  :>
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 309 posts
Thu 20 Aug 2020
at 15:41
Re: View as player?
Was in my spouse's game, so I'll have to get them to test again later today when they're able in case it's something specific there, but to answer the questions that I can! (I know I comment a lot from the GM perspective, but I don't actually have any games of my own, I just play question-and-answer forum secretary for them.)

-The secret lines were entered via the 'Secret to' menu drop-down option, with the text put into each one copy-pasted into the little box.
-There were multiple secret lines (one for each player in the scene), all in succession without spaces between them so that (hopefully) there were no awkward blank spots in the finished post.
-The 'Preview as' option, no matter which player was selected (even ones not in the scene group at all, several were tried) revealed the full GM post with every secret line back-to-back with their little orange dots beneath them.
-The secret lines /did/ work from the perspective of the players, as far as can be told. As a player that didn't get a secret line, I don't see any of them, and some of the players have indicated clearly being able to see theirs. (Not all, but enough that I feel confident it worked properly in the thread. No one has said anything that makes me think otherwise.)
-This was using Chrome, on Responsive.

The only thing I can think, if it /should/ be working, is that it's something to do with the lack of spaces between the secret lines, maybe?
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 310 posts
Fri 21 Aug 2020
at 00:32
Re: View as player?
Figured out the problem, and I'm going to blame...well, I don't know what to blame. I feel a little stupid, now that I've figured it out, but at the same time it wasn't remotely intuitive.

We were setting the 'Preview as' option on the drop-down, and then hitting the primary 'Preview' button. I didn't even realize the 'Preview as' by the drop-down /was/ a button until just now. Whoops. <.<
Skald
 moderator, 909 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Fri 21 Aug 2020
at 13:51
Re: View as player?
<grins> No, don't feel too bad ... took me a second or two to realise I had to hit the Preview as button to trigger a refresh of the text.  This is what this forum is for - finding issues and making more work for jase suggesting improvements for the benefit of all.

Wonder if changing the drop down alone should trigger the refresh of the text (which I suggest cos that's what I thought would happen).  That way we'd have just the one Preview button and at the top of the screen it'd have a 'previewing as:' label followed by the drop down which contains all the GM and PC names.

Modify text and hit preview again and it would keep the same drop down value and refresh the text accordingly.

Soo ...

Write post
Click on Preview - defaults to show 'previewing as:' |GM    |V|
Change dropdown to another character - shows 'previewing as:' |Barad |V|
Edit post
Click on Preview - continues to show 'previewing as:' |Barad |V| but reflects the text changes (if they had any impact on what this character sees)
Change dropdown to another character - shows 'previewing as:' |Jannet|V|