LonePaladin
 member, 843 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 03:04
View as player?
Maybe it should be added as a drop-down option to the Preview button? Something like "View as..." then a list of character names, maybe with a 'bystander' option so you can see how it would look to lurkers and anyone without player access.
Imladir
 member, 10 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 03:08
View as player?
Then there's no security concern, but it's a (potentially very) complex thing to do for basically...nothing.

I'm not saying you wouldn't like, or find it interesting. But spend long hours on something that basically doesn't achieve much of anything.

It's not impossible to do, it's not the hardest thing to do. But when you compare what it costs vs what it brings... It's typically the kind of things you put in the list of "Things to do when I want to take a pause from the important stuff, but that I probably won't ever do".
facemaker329
 member, 7116 posts
 Gaming for over 30
 years, and counting!
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 05:45
View as player?
I suspect that's a large part of why it's been suggested five(?) times before and still hasn't been implemented.  It's a significant undertaking with a very limited payoff in terms of affecting the overall functionality of the game, and it's highly likely that a lot of players wouldn't use it even if it was there (I mean, I know that in the games I'm in that a lot of people don't bother with the 'preview' feature that's already in place, most of the time...making a more elaborate version of it isn't likely to change that significantly.)
jase
 admin, 3671 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 09:43
View as player?
Maybe it's rude but it always gives me a giggle that we can't imagine what it'll look like... aren't we all here to use our imagination?  (c;

Anyway, I don't have much constructive to add to the conversation except that it is on the to-do list.  I'm not sure I can claim it being very high up the list as it would be a fair bit of work and previously I've had people say they want to make sure the code is going to do the right thing.  I already know the code's going to do the right thing... and using one piece of code to check on another piece of code seems a little.. uh.. illogical..?  (I understand there's been other reasons presented in this thread.)

Though I admit now I'm intrigued as to whether I can come up with a simple piece of impersonation code and I do like a challenge.
Low Key
 member, 230 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 09:49
View as player?
I do use the preview button

As a GM I'd use this function
And I'd like to be able to view as other players when I'm posting as a player and I'm using Private Lines

Not because I can't imagine what it should look like
Or because I don't trust the site to do what I ask
But because I don't trust myself to ask the code to do what I actually want it to do.
I am fallible. And once I know what I want something to say, it can be hard to notice when it doesn't. It's why I get other people to proof read things for me.
Just using colour tags for text, I often have to fix stuff after previewing because I've made a mistake.
With private lines I can't see those mistakes, so I don't know they need fixing.

This message was last edited by the user at 09:52, Fri 16 Aug 2019.

theseeker
 member, 13 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 17:34
Re: View as player?
Low Key:
I do use the preview button

But because I don't trust myself to ask the code to do what I actually want it to do.

Bullseye
donsr
 member, 1691 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 18:49
Re: View as player?
each to thier  own.. substance  is  better  then window  dressing.
Ski-Bird
 subscriber, 30 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 20:42
Re: View as player?
I think this would be neat as a way of proofreading a highly modified post, but can totally understand the difficulty / hesitance to implement.

The OP's question was straightforward  and for the most part very quickly and succinctly answered.

For a technical forum though, the replies in the vein of 'It's not how I play, so it doesn't matter' were less than helpful.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 101 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 20:53
Re: View as player?
Low Key:
As a GM I'd use this function
And I'd like to be able to view as other players when I'm posting as a player and I'm using Private Lines

I think there's a potential risk with viewing as other players, because what happens if you can't limit the preview to just the ONE post that's being written?

It would be a breach of at the very least trust if you could set your viewpoint to be Player X's, even temporarily, and go through and wind up with access to private lines to them in posts OTHER than the ones you've written.*

I'm down with the GM being able to look at their game and see what the players see - although I see the most value of that with actually being the login times, not the posts themselves - but I'm not sure I can get behind a player being able to switch their viewpoint to that of another player.

*- Edit: Or other things that would be detrimental - For example, if you could set your viewpoint to another player's, and then view the cast list, you could tell which characters they are controlling (because your own characters don't show an 'rMail' option on the cast list).

This message was last edited by the user at 20:57, Fri 16 Aug 2019.

jmurrell
 member, 72 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 20:56
Re: View as player?
Well my question has indeed been answered. Mainly I wanted as the GM, and only as the GM, to be able to check that I had the language groups correct.
Low Key
 subscriber, 231 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 21:44
Re: View as player?
In reply to SunRuanEr (msg # 20):

If it's the ability to preview as a specified player then I can only see posts I've written, because I can only preview posts I've written.
SunRuanEr
 subscriber, 102 posts
Fri 16 Aug 2019
at 22:12
Re: View as player?
In reply to Low Key (msg # 22):

Yes, I know that's the intent, and I know that Jase is very good at what he does... but it seems to me that the potential downsides if it doesn't work exactly as it's supposed to could far outweigh the benefits to having it implemented.

As a player, you can already see what's in a private line to another player that you wrote in a preview. You can already see the formatting for it, even - the only difference is whether or not the brackets are white or orange. (If you wrote it, they're white - if you're reading it, they're orange.) The spaces are the same, the text is the same, however you formatted it (if you formatted it) is the same. If you trust in Jase's coding and use the 'Insert a private line' option, it'll work as it's supposed to every time. If you're inserting them by hand and don't trust yourself, well... maybe start using the button option? Either way, the private line literally looks the same to you as it does to the player it's being sent to... except for the bracket color. That's not a lot of value for adding it.

*IF* this preview option didn't work perfectly for just the single post that you were writing, and accidentally allowed you to "spoof" the game into thinking you were someone else past the preview page, you could out people as playing characters you didn't know they were playing, or read other private lines to them in other messages, or maybe even access their PMs. That's potentially a lot of risky downside.

A GM, on the other hand, can get a lot of bang for their buck by being able to look at the game as a player/preview posts as a player, because they have special tools (such as Secret Lines) that DO actually show up differently for the target than they do for the author, and have a login list that looks different than a player's does. Moreover, there's no risk of accidentally exposing a GM to information they shouldn't have because literally every bit of information (such as who plays what character, and all private lines, PMs, etc) is already available to the GM because it's their game. Ergo, more potential upside without any downside.

/shrug
Low Key
 subscriber, 232 posts
Sat 17 Aug 2019
at 06:48
Re: View as player?
Sure, but this is technical discussions, not RPoL development :)

Jase (and others) were unsure why anyone would want/need/use this.
I was saying if it worked the way I said it worked I would want/use this.
Obviously if it was different that'd be different.
I wasn't trying to vote on the relative merits of, or potential problems with, the idea because this is not the forum designed to do that.

I'd use this feature, as both player and GM, if it existed.
Do I think it should exist? That's a different question for a different forum.
jase
 admin, 3672 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Sat 17 Aug 2019
at 09:45
Re: View as player?
Coincidentally this thread has been moved to development 'cos now it's in testing!

Can be previewed on the beta site at https://beta.rpol.net.

Will only be available on the responsive site when it becomes available.  Another carrot to use that site.  (c;

Needs testing first, which is what you and the beta site are for!
Skald
 moderator, 858 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Sun 18 Aug 2019
at 13:26
Re: View as player?
<grrins> He likes a challenge !  ;>

I occasionally build multiple layers of Secret to messages and it's nice to be able to check I've got the line spacing and sentence spacing right so it doesn't look anything other than seamless to the players.  We don't want them suspecting anything.

And very, very nice it is too ... worked fine for me for both private and secret messages to different players.  And all three language options.

It didn't seem 100% intuitive to switch back from previewing as player to preview as GM, though I finally worked out I could do that by setting the option back to the explanatory text "Preview this post as:"  ... could I suggest we stick "Preview as:"  (shorter wording to save space) as a label to the left of the dropdown, and make GM the first option (or the GM's alias) in the dropdown ?  :>

EDIT: Just spotted the note at the top of the screen which I didn't notice the first few times I tested "You are previewing this post from the perspective of <selected character>, press "Preview" again to remove this filter."

That would probably help the more observant among us ... I still like the idea of having GM on the list, but onscreen prompt/instruction is also helpful.  I vote for both !  ;>

This message was last edited by the user at 13:40, Sun 18 Aug 2019.

LonePaladin
 member, 844 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Sun 18 Aug 2019
at 17:04
Re: View as player?
Secret Lines is an underappreciated feature here, to my knowledge this is the ONLY PbP site that has it. I've used it to differentiate info given to players (say, to account for enhanced vision), or to instill paranoia, or just to have something that one player notices but not in a way that tells them the others might not have seen it.

Really, the degrees of GM control, especially with giving and concealing information, keep RPoL on the top of the pile. I shill for the site regularly, and go on at length about these features.
jase
 admin, 3675 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Mon 19 Aug 2019
at 01:58
Re: View as player?
Guilty as charged, I got suckered in by the challenge!  Was relatively easy in the end 'cos I thought of a tricky way to do it.  Probably needs to be tidied up at some stage but that'll just be me fiddling.

Skald:
could I suggest we stick "Preview as:"  (shorter wording to save space) as a label to the left of the dropdown

That's going to make the line even longer and it starts to have cramping/flow issues on thinner browser widths (we've also got to cater for some very long character names).  Maybe leave it as is but the first selection is "Preview as: (GM)" or something similar.

LonePaladin:
Secret Lines is an underappreciated feature here
...
I shill for the site regularly, and go on at length about these features.

Pretty sure private lines weren't being used anywhere until we thought of it here in 2000, but a largely moot point now as its widely copied now.  I'm sure we've copied other features around too.  But I digress.

This kind of stuff (while also nice to hear) is good to know as to what sets us apart from other sites.  We need to come up with some more cunning ideas that would be amazing to have.  That nobody else has would also be neat.  (c;
Skald
 moderator, 859 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Mon 19 Aug 2019
at 14:26
Re: View as player?
jase:
That's going to make the line even longer and it starts to have cramping/flow issues on thinner browser widths (we've also got to cater for some very long character names).  Maybe leave it as is but the first selection is "Preview as: (GM)" or something similar.

Good point !  Lots of space on my desktop, but yes need to allow for mobiles too.

I think we could simplify even further with "Preview as ?" as the first list item, then add GM as the second ?   Actually I'd love to make that dynamic so the ? was replaced by the selection, giving us:

|Preview as GM:       |V|
 Player A
 Player B
 Player C

Becoming:

|Preview as Player A: |V|
 GM
 Player B
 Player C

BUT player names are going to be too long, so we'd run into the same spacing issues.
jase
 admin, 3677 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 04:52
Re: View as player?
I was resetting the "preview as" option every time it was used, thought it best to default it to off... but can easily set it to the last used option.

Speaking of, I'd leave the first selection as "Preview as: GM" but if wanted to keep the last used option selected then that can be the active option on the list.

I can see merits to having it either default the standard GM view and also to being whoever you picked last.  The current system (and notice at the top) is around defaulting back to GM each time.
LonePaladin
 member, 847 posts
 Creator of HeroForge
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 04:54
Re: View as player?
Why not make that an option you can change in your Preferences page?
jase
 admin, 3679 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 09:33
Re: View as player?
Unless opinions are really divided I'd rather not make it an option.  Seems an unnecessary additional complication (for users and for me!), plus it'll use an option "slot" for something that's only for GMs.. and something pretty niche at that.
Skald
 moderator, 860 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 13:29
Re: View as player?
When I was testing, I would have preferred preview to stick with last selection so I could edit and then single click to preview again, and I suppose if a post has so many private/secret messages or language options, the most likely requirement is that I'd either need to fix a problem and preview again for the same player OR preview again for a different player ... in neither case does setting it back to GM help.

But for 99% of posts, since the button would load as Preview GM, I'd not need to change it.

Yes, I think stick with last selection would be the best, but can't see any benefit in having it as a preferences setting - no matter what I set the preference to you can bet the next time I used it it'd be the wrong one !  <grins>

H'mm ... I'm still grasping at straws in relation to tweaking the layout. I'd like to promise this is my last try. :>   COULD we move the preview button to the other side of the dropdown box ?  Sounds odd, but I think it'd make it more intuitive with a slight relabel:

| Preview/Delay as |  | GM         |V|   |  Post  |
                        Player A
                        Player B
                        Player C

Replacing the "Post" with "as" reduces the Preview button width by a couple of chars so actually saves space.  :>

Actcherly ... can you detect if Javascript is enabled ?  If you can and it isn't then don't need the /Delay wording.
jase
 admin, 3680 posts
 Cogito, ergo procuro.
 Carpe stultus!
Tue 20 Aug 2019
at 14:55
Re: View as player?
I thought about moving it to the right of the preview button but the issue with that is that it'll change the location of the button depending on how long the character names are.  I think it's better to have it to the left even though it does mean we can't use that particular layout.

I've uploaded the code to the responsive site (no longer just on the beta site), see how it works for you.  Default is who you last viewed, I've changed the notice message to reflect the change.
Skald
 moderator, 861 posts
 Whatever it is,
 I'm against it
Wed 21 Aug 2019
at 13:50
Re: View as player?
But, but, but ... nah, looked, tested and admired on Responsive ... and I'm pefickly happy with that, thank ye kindly.  <grins>
theseeker
 member, 16 posts
Thu 22 Aug 2019
at 03:59
Re: View as player?
jase:
I've uploaded the code to the responsive site (no longer just on the beta site), see how it works for you.  Default is who you last viewed, I've changed the notice message to reflect the change.

Did something get rolled back?  I went to test this, and got just the old `preview` button.  No options.  I logged out, cleared cookies, and tried again.  Same thing.  on r dot rpol dot net.