@shard - All spells known/slots are kept separate, but that doesn't stop this feat due to how it's worded. If you're thinking of something more specifically worded, then I'd love to see it. I like learning new rules.

@Ajah - the feat says you sacrifice two lower level spells for a higher level one. Considering only the feat's language, there's nothing that limits it to one caster pool. If you had three classes, you could burn one spell from two different classes to power a spell from a third. That's how the feat is read. Now, other rules might prevent this, but this argument only concerns the feat itself. I'm sure it'd be preferred to have this in a PM thread as opposed to clogging up this thread, so if you'd like to contest this point lets do it there.

If I see an exploit, should I keep quiet so someone can use it later, or would you prefer I point it out so we can address it early?

I have no interest in versatile spellcaster.

I think RAW is frequently misused to affirmatively read in exploits under the guise of some sort of permissive omission of limiting language.

Does the feat specifically say anywhere a level 1 warmage level 1 cleric CANNOT combine two 1st level spell slots from the spontaneous class to cast a 2nd level cleric spell? Nope.

Because it is not prohibited by the feat, does that mean it is per se legal by RAW? Nope.

Does limiting the feat to known spells from the spontaneous class only, of a level you could already cast from the same class violate RAW? The feat doesn't say it isn't limited in that way, as a reader would likely assume.

I'd definitely be a happy camper if I never had to type "RAW" out again lol.

Please point it out as early as possible :).

Sad to hear that I guess spontaneous casters cannot have nice things -and as the weakest charcter in the arena feels discouraging being denied a possible boost I would have used as intended because someone else would missuse it-. Ok how about metamagic song from races of stone?  You cant really call that overpowered it is a way weaker form of divine metamagic. It comes from a more limited pool that grows slowly, capped to spell levels you can already cast and an all or nothing thing.  Not something you can just take a great benefit from with a bard dip

This message was deleted by the player at 15:45, Sun 10 Nov 2013.

Versatile Spellcaster

( Races of the Dragon, p. 101)

[General]

You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite
Ability to spontaneously cast spells,
Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

The only way for a cleric to Spontaneously cast is for them to drop a prepared spell. So they have to fill that spell slot with an actual spell to be able to drop it for there spontaneous spell.

PHB on page 178 defines a spell slot as "Openings for daily spells" Opening means empty spell slots. Meaning only a sorcerer could actually use this feat since they don't have to prepare spells and can use this feat.

If a cleric doesn't prepare a spell in a spell slot by RAW they can't change it to a cure spell, because on page 32 it specifically states "The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any spell with cure in it's name."

I say RAW because I am giving you page numbers.

Edit: I guess  you could probably let a cleric drop 2 lower level cure spells for a higher level cure spell since that is the only spontaneous spell they have unless they take alot of other feats.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:52, Sun 10 Nov 2013.

Tel'adrel is a sorcerer and has one of the stronger winning records in the arena. Spontaneous casters aren't totally without options.

Tallulah, isn't there a complete Mage feat that allows burning bardic music uses per day to cast spells?

No, there is one which is only a mild DC booster for illusions and enchantments (and it involves a check) and one that lets you drop concentration and obviate masterwork instruments to cast and play.

In reply to Ajah (msg # 202):

Lets say I'm a Beguiler/Sorcerer/Favored Soul.

Complete Adventurer, Lyric Spell


In an old arena and a game, I had a Bard / Lyric Thaumaturge / Sublime Chord, so I knew it wasn't only in Races of Stone.

-
Regarding versatile spellcaster:
I think the standard rules of magic and the lack of any language to the contrary clearly enough limits Versatile Spellcaster to only sacrificing two "spell slots" of a single lower level to "cast" a single known spell of a single higher level, impliedly of the same spontaneous category as the sacrificed spells. I also think we can all easily accept that despite a warmage or beguiler "knowing" all spells on their list from the beginning, the feat does not explicitly grant the ability to cast spells of a higher level than the character has normal access to.

A character can already elect to prepare or cast a lower level spell in place of a higher level spell, and versatile spellcaster is a feat that effectively enhances that ability for spontaneous spells.

Feats like Versatile Spellcaster don't necessarily need I result in insanity, but because of simplistic wording they're prone to ridiculousness, which I believe is why they are frequently banned.

I don't think we should allow feats or spells in isolated cases. We should either find a way to make them work for everyone and clearly list that in the rules or keep it banned. The feat is, after all, from a book we shouldn't even be using...

God Munchkins annoy me sometimes they have to squeeze the fun out of anything they can get there hands on. I am hoping Tallulah didn't really want this feat, because you probably are taking it away from her the more you try to exploit it.

In reply to Ajah (msg # 207):

Having so many classes has nothing to do with being a munchkin, I have four classes myself with possibly one prestige class ahead and I'm as far from being a munchkin as it can get.
So having said that, any chance of Metamagic song (Races of stone 142)  being allowed? I mean almost every argument against including it applies to Divine Metamagic too, and that one is legal here.

Being a munchkin has nothing to do with how many classes you take, being a munchkin is when you try to look for any kind of exploit you can find when it is there or when it isn't there instead of taking the feat or rule at face value.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:59, Mon 11 Nov 2013.

Metamagic song is good to go.

I actually would like to make an argument for a limitation on both of them: no Quicken spell.  It's utterly broken when you can essentially freely dump your highest level spells (in any capacity) through an ability that no one else has a remote equivilant to.

Let me get this straight, for a bard to use quicken spell, she needs: to be able to cast at least 3rd level spells (to quicken a cantrip, 4th to quicken a 1st level spell, that is a 10th level bard thank you), have quicken spell, have one of three feats to be allowed to use quicken (one is off limits -in RoD-, the other doesn't works with neither metamagic song nor Lyric spell, and the last one is limited to 9th level or higher) and given the order of feats that is going to be 12th level before being allowed to do it. Now divine metamagic has less limits a cleric only needs quick spell and divine metamagic: quicken and isn't limited by spell levels, there is a reason they are so strong.

Tallulah, isn't using Metamagic Song a full round action? Quicken isn't possible then...

It says "increases time as normal" the action itself is part of the same action to cast the spell. With rapid metamagic quicken becomes viable too. still it implies going through lots of hoops  and it isn't as powerful as with divine metamagic

In reply to Tallulah (msg # 214):

So Shard, Metamagic Song requires Rapid Metamagic and Quicken spell to be able to quicken AND it doesn't allow divine metamagic hijinks. Even though a metamagic song quickened cure light wounds uses a 1st level spell slot to cast, it still requires the ability to cast 5th level spells. I don't think quickening up to 2nd level bard spells is going to be worth it, let alone game breaking.

If someone makes an uber-bard and proves me wrong with allowing metamagic song - we can revisit the issue then.

What is the ruling in Rainbow Servant? text triumphs table or table triumphs text? (in other words they contradict each other regarding casting advancement)

The rule is: "text trumps table."

In reply to Shen Lakshima (msg # 217):

Rule is always text trumps table.

Rainbow servant is indeed a full casting class.

Every international printing of the book has the correct table for rainbow servant as well.

In reply to Ajah (msg # 219):

That makes Sacred Fist an insanely better build, then.  I might have to remake my "Friar" from an old campaign now.