Questions and comments about how the game works goes here.

Do you not understand an ability? Good. We can write it better.
Do you feel something is weak or too strong? Let us know.
Have suggestions on wording to make it clearer? Share it.
Have suggestions on bland flavor text for spells? That too.

If you think it, and can back it up with anything more than "cuz," spit it out. This is what a play-test is for.

We'll probably be using this thread more and more as you guys progress.

I still think Red Mages should get Spellcraft as a class skill. While, granted, they have alot of skill points, making them spend double to get a cross-class skill isn't worth it. (Even with wasting a feat on Able Learner, I still think its not worth it.) I would even go as far as saying Sleight of Hand shouldn't be a class skill for Red Mages, even though I love the Sleight of Hand skill.

The reasons for Red Mages not getting Spellcraft:

Reason 1.
Red Mages aren't supposed to be masters of magic. They view magic as a means to an end. It is important to understand how to utilize magic as effectively as possible, not to understand its every nuance and articulation. Red Mages are so diverse in their skills that they lack detailed knowledge in any field. They cannot wear heavy armor. Their proficiency with martial weapons is severely limited. They do not gain the most powerful or unique spells of white and black magic. (Though you can take feats to excel in many of these areas, just as you can take feats to improve your Spellcraft).

Reason 2. Like you said, we gave Red Mages six skill points a level. This was so that they could have a huge variety of skills but never truly excel in any of them (except Charisma-based ones). They can spend some of these points into Spellcraft if they wish. If you look at their class skill list, it's quite an odd smattering. Most of it is very situationally useful skills (The exceptions are Diplomacy and Bluff, buf red mages are the Charisma masters).

Reason 3. We wanted to preserve White and Black mages (mostly black mages) as the masters of the technical magics of the world. Red Mages do not have Knowledge (arcana) either, not until they become Red Wizards to they gain other knowledges.

Point 4. Let's look at what Spellcraft does. I'll go through them in order.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

1: Glyph of warding: This doesn't really exist in this campaign.

2: Identifying a spell being cast
This one is pretty major. One of the biggest reasons to do this, though, is to counterspell. Red Mages have Dispel. They don't need to know what you're casting to counter it. Another major reason is to help protect yourself and allies against it. White Mages are much better at protecting their allies than Red Mages. A Red Mage's response to an enemy spell caster is to maim or disable them.

3&4: Learning spells in this game does not require Spellcraft.

5: Detecting what kind of magic an item is putting off is useful, but again, a Red Mage can still tell that it IS magical, and then Identify it. This isn't a super-huge restriction, and goes back to the usefulness of having a White or Black Mage in the party.

6: Same as #1, identifying a magic symbol will be rare.

7: Identifying an active spell is neat. But you know what? You can Dispel it whether or not you know how it works. Problem solved.

8: While identifying magically altered items or environment is situationally useful, it happens rarely. Moreover, in this campaign, it will not be as common as vanilla D&D. You can tell it's magical, and guess what, if you don't like it? That's right. Dispel.

9: Same as #1. Scrolls do exist, yes, but a Red Mage does not need them. Red Mages can already use almost all of the wands in the game, and the ones that they can't they can have tons of Use Magic Device.

10: Identifying a spell that was cast upon you after a saving throw is nice. I don't have a lot of argument for this one. What might help is that Red Mages have pretty good all-around saves and special resistance to enhancing magic.

11: Identifying potions is not what Red Mages are about.

12: Similar to #1. Dimensional Anchor isn't a player usable spell.

13: Identifying unique magic effects. The save DC is so high for this one that even a mid or high-level Red Mage with Spellcraft as a class skill would have trouble hitting this. This is the realm of the Black Mage.


So there you have it.

tl;dr
Red Mages are not specialists in any one aspect of their class, including Spellcraft. It is to preserve White and Black Mages as the true magical masters. Red Mages already freakin' rock.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:37, Wed 02 Feb 2011.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

Haley would make a good red mage :)

I agree that spellcraft seems a bit less important, but will this game support epic play? If so, red mages might get a bit gimped at the end there.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:29, Wed 02 Feb 2011.

I have thought about that. The game won't support epic play in the classic sense.

The campaign was designed to be played 1 through the mid-high teens (in of itself a VERY long campaign). It might be the case that the game will progress to the low 20's, but you'll only gain more of the same. Skill points, Hit Points, Mana Points, Spell Slots, Feats/Ability Scores, and BAB. Games such as this would involve doing a ton of side quests and fighting very challenging encounters for increased XP gain.

If it's meant t be FF, and was designed to play into high teens...wouldn't stopping at 20 kinda be the FF way?

Like FF7 can be beaten around level 55-60ish(with good setup), but I personally have never played through without maxing everyone at 99...not even trying particularly, it just happens while mastering materia or exploiring

20 sounds like a fair deal.  It's hard to make things worthwhile and awesome when you sneeze and change the orbit of the planet (epics) on a regular basis.

In regards to the predicted max level:

I've got no clue. We'll find out in our other play-test first, of course. I expect this group to level up less quickly, and hitting level 10, let alone 20, should take a while. I do like the idea of the mages getting to play with AT LEAST level 8 spells before the completion of the main storyline in almost all situations.


In regards to Spellcraft:

I'll bring it up again with the other creator the next time we speak. If you could propose any argument I would be happy to play devil's advocate and suggest the same to him to see what he thinks.


In other news:

We're probably going to give White Mages a new toy (albeit a small one) of a class feature. More on this when we get it ironed out.

I've been thinking about the Black Belt's Stance feature as a whole. I'll wait until I see JACK's in action levels 1-4 before making any updates most likely.
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:15, Thu 03 Feb 2011.

The only argument I can make on Spellcraft is that, imo, Red Mages aren't randomly feeling out magic. Red Mages are.. like Bards in D&D as a comparison. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I know my response, and I anticipate his will be the same: They aren't only "feeling it out" so much as only practicing the applicable and immediately beneficial aspects of magic. They control magic not through sheer intelligence and mental agility and control, nor through deep, thoughtful understanding and coaxing of the world around them, but through their own personal focus and willpower.

"Jack of all trades, master of none."
This is what, but to a different degree on the other end of the spectrum, I think he'll say about it exactly.

Umm...just noticed something on the tent, it says recover 2 MP/level along with HP...but MP being the spells/day wouldn't they already fill up for resing?

Hahahaha. No.

MP only comes back when resting in an inn, something considered as an inn, or when using a tent, cabin, or cottage.

There's also Ethers (aka Crack), but they are sorta rare and cannot be bought in Cornelia.

Can't sleep.

This seems unclear.



1 - Cure (1d8 +1/CL up to 5), does healing mastery stack with this cap? (with no other variables 1d8 +6 at caster level 5?)

2 - There are a few spells in the [Healing] spell school that aren't cures.  I doubt this was meant to affect them but it seems vague.

examples: Basuna/ra, Esuna, Life1-3, Regrowth, Restore1-2

1- Yes, it stacks. At level 20 your Cure spell will restore 1d8+9 hit points, making it absurdly efficient.

2- This affects basically only the Cure and Heal line of spells. We left the wording open to automatically incorporate any other spells that may have been created or added.

Now that you mention it, it should function with Life II if that spell is of the Healing school. I'll take a look at this.

edit-
I wouldn't mind Healing Mastery working with Life II if it weren't for the fact that Life II would fully restore low hit point creatures and characters back to life with full HP. This might be alright, as Arise is still a much better spell (Standard instead of 1 Round cast time, full HP for whoever, even that monk with 250+ hit points.)

The other creator and I will discuss this. Thanks for bringing it up.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:46, Fri 18 Feb 2011.

One of the major reasons for the spell is to help out the Black Mage's weaknesses. Balance? Earth. Jump? Wind. Swim? Water. Normally a lot of those circumstances are auto-death situations. This spell alleviates that.

The main point of the ice, apart from the slight damage absorbtion, is to escape grapples. You think the HP isn't good, but keep in mind it is an immediate action to cast. Later when you have more MP and the effects increase you can cast it right before the BBEG hits you, potentially saving your life. Our Black Mage at level 7 has used it once already to save his life.

Many things you fight will not have another way of sight other than non-visual senses. Some, few, have both. And as you said, you can Blind them. You can Fire Sheath and Blind in the same round. What's the problem there?

The difference between Wind and Earth is intentional. Wind gives you touch AC while earth is more for big physical hitters. The little extra DR is to make up for the fact that you're not wearing any armor (usually) since it does not stack with other sources of DR (except Phalanx).

Water Sheath can be good for a lot of out-of-combat situations, yes. You could potentially go scout out something by swimming underwater or whatever. The fact that you have to do it alone is intentional. That 8-armed water creature that finds a lone black mage deep down near its home is a lucky monster. Yummy.

The wind one giving you feather-fall is incredibly, incredibly useful.

I personally think the spell is still WAY too versatile. The fact that some aspects seem "weak" is because the spell is capable of doing six different things. It's stronger than even most vanilla D&D spells.

Tes: Any reason why Cure is a d8, but Cure 2-4 are d10s? Progression seems off.

I was assuming because Cure is 1 MP, where as Cure 2 is 5 MP.

Assume a level 5 whm and a level 10 whm (+1/2 healing mastery so cures get +6 and +12).

Level 5 whm
Cure - 1d8+6 for 1 MP (average 10/11)
Cure 2 - 2d10+8 for 5 MP (average 19)

Level 10 whm
Cure - 1d8+7 for 1 MP (average 11/12)
Cure 2 - 2d10+16 for 5 MP (average 27)
Cure 3 - 3d10+22 for 9 MP (average 39/40)

These are slightly less (and different levels) for rdm.

I assumed it was to nerf the out of combat cure really cheaply for 1 MP (which is still way WAY more effective).
This message was last edited by the player at 00:28, Sat 19 Feb 2011.

As ZEIG stated, it's to reduce Cure's insane efficiency.

It already is the most efficient way to heal someone outside of combat (apart from a Red Mage's Regen at most levels).

Cure II and on up are supposed to be used in combat to save your friends' asses, and it costs a pretty amount of MP to do it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:59, Fri 18 Feb 2011.

Efficient, yes but...the whole point is in battle you want larger heals in shorter times...

For instance, even in Viladin's FFd20 system Regen is the most efficient way of healing someone, but takes multiple rounds, useful as a pre-heal, or right after minor wound if expected to take a little damage each round, but if something is taking half yer health down in one round? suddenly efficiency is less imporant, and speed becomes more.

Yeah, that's why you have Cure II and higher, not to mention Divine Seal or Fast Cast to let out more healing in one round.

2d10 + CL(10) is fairly respectable, and White Mages get 2d10 + 3 + CL(10) for Cure II's out of the gate. At level 7 their Cure II's are doing 2d10 + 13. Slap a Divine Seal on that and you're restoring, on average, 36 hit points.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:24, Sat 19 Feb 2011.

Btw, I know the reason for Weapon Finesse, but I would like to contest for an alternate feat, or at least a choice of feats (similar to Monks upon 2nd level). Weapon Finesse will continue to be a dead feat for me.

The entire reason Red Mages were given Weapon Finesse for free was to reduce their MAD (multi-attribute-dependency). It gives players the choice, if they wish, to focus on STR as a melee stat (usually with Longsword) or Dexterity as a melee stat (usually with Rapiers).

One of course does more damage, while the other has slightly higher AC and initiative. This mechanic works out to be exactly what you think it should be. I stronger, larger hitter or a more agile one.

Yes, high-STR builds can use Rapiers just as effectively (in fact more so), but the loss to ranged touch attacks for spells, initiative, reflex saves, and AC more than makes up for the balance point.

In conclusion, it was meant as a way to simply add an option for players to use if they wished. I can't think of any other suitable substitution feat off of the top of my head that would fit the same type of original purpose. Much in the same way, ALL Black Belts gain Combat Reflexes to reflect their extensive martial training. They do not get a choice in the matter.

If you have any suggestions or input, please share them/it.

Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus?

What he said.

I talked about it with the other creator.

Weapon Finesse reflects his ability to be versatile with light weapons.

Weapon Focus is just that: a focused, extensive training with a particular weapon. Specific focus and training into one thing is exactly what an out-of-the-box Red Mage should NOT have.

Weapon Finesse or Power Attack then?

Being more accurate with weak weapons, or less accurate with powerful blows

Power Attack implies physical strength and raw brutality. That is not an innate Red Mage quality.

The only other type of feat that I would personally feel appropriate (I will still bring up your suggestions to the other creator), is one that centered on a combat style similar to fencing. Weapon Finesse of course falls in line perfectly with this. I'd maybe, MAYBE, allow dodge, but that's more of a high evasion Thiefy type deal. On second thought, no, I don't like that either.

It's kind of hard to give Red Mages anything further. They're already probably the most versatile and depending on your build, powerful class. They are always useful in every situation, unlike the other classes.

Fighters and Black Belts don't get to pick their built-in feats. I'm going to have to say that this type of thing would be left up to DM discretion on a per-instance basis, and in my personal opinion, I can't think of anything that would fit the bill.

VIL just picked his stats in a way that doesn't make use of Weapon Finesse. That was one of the outcomes that had been planned for. The free Weapon Finesse feat should not be thought of as a free feat, but simply an aspect of the class that they can wield their light weapons using DEX instead of STR. The feat was simply the most instantly recognizable way to convey this.

But its an useless feature for Red Mages who don't. And honestly, I don't see any Red Mages going the Dex route. Better to dump stat points into Strength for attack/damage.

I haven't read up on Fighter/Black Belt built-in feats, but I'm pretty sure they're usable no matter how they're spec'd.

I honestly can't think of another feat to replace it. I would even rather just have Weapon Finesse removed entirely and not replaced so I don't feel like I'm wasting a class feature.

Combat Expertise?

Weaoin Finesse isn't versatile either...it's built specifically for high dex builds...it has a wider range of available targets then weapn focus but...power attack works on everything EXCEPT light weapons(not counting unarmed strikes) So I think it fits...you can choose to be more accurate with light weapons, or more damaging with non-light weapons...that seems to fit the bill.

I see what you're trying to go for with weapon finesse, and since red mage is such a customizable class it just allows for another path.

If you were going to offer a choice between 2 feats then I like Dai's suggestion of combat expertise.  It's along the same lines as sword dueling, you give up offense for defense and what not, and that seems to fit the bill with the versatility of red mage.  It's also not the same as a static dodge bonus, which is definitely more thief.

Not really feeling power attack, I mean, you can take it anyways if you want it but as a bonus feat (as a result of training as a red mage) it doesn't make much sense.

There's no reason to get rid of the feat.  Instead of thinking "I got a feat I'm not using, I wish I could drop it" look at it like it is simply an innate class feature that happens to be selectable by other classes as a feat.  If you're not using it, well, how often do you expect macaroni to be useful? :P
This message was last edited by the player at 23:07, Sun 20 Feb 2011.

As often as you wanna look awesome...duh >.>

I don't think of Macaroni as a class feature :p I see it as fluff or a joke by creators.

But in the general balance of base class features, it doesn't seem like a right choice for a Red Mage. I can't think of any other base class (from any D&D product) that has a potentially useless class feature.

Swashbuckler

High DEX builds ARE good. Initiative (if you go first with Chainspell, the encounter is won), AC (with a boat-load of enhancing magic on top of it) and to a lesser extent Reflex saves.

DEX also helps your ranged touch attacks. With 3/4 BAB and high DEX you simply can't miss on ranged touch attacks for most enemies. When fighting Thiefy classes with high DEX the red mage can consistently hit enemies that a black mage might have a 30-50% miss chance without burning elemental seal.

Weapon Finesse allows you to maintain melee viability if you choose to go the DEX route.

Strength, on the other hand, lets you use Longswords for more damage, does more damage in of itself, and allows you to carry a lot more gear.

ZEIG summed it up pretty well. It's a class feature that you're simply not taking advantage of.

And again, even if you don't use the DEX to attack rolls, Red Mages are still the most versatile yada yada yada.

Still a waste. Class features should, generally, give you a bonus regardless how you spec, imo. Two sets of RM builds are unaffected by Weapon Finesse (High Str/High Cha and the Hybrid like me).

If you think about it that way, there's no reason to not think of a separate feat for the 3 different "major" ways to build a red mage.  Technically red mage can still pick up weapon finesse, but since red mage does have so much flexibility you'd think they would focus on a specific use.  That brings up the 3 different ways to play.

I think I understand the trouble now, and it's why does the dex build get a helping hand and not the others?  It makes most sense to have 3 options for a starting feat, one based on each build type, or none at all.  If it's about the player's options to build, then there shouldn't be a bonus feat in there that caters to only one build.

I still like the idea of a choice between 3 feats.

Weapon Finesse - dex
Combat Expertise - hybrid
Power Attack - str/cha

The only thing that makes this difficult to use is the fact that you could take one feat and then use a different build.  If you went this route maybe the feat could be granted based on the highest stat, to reflect slightly more training in a given discipline.  I don't know how that would work for the hybrid build though, it honestly makes things a little over complicated.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:12, Mon 21 Feb 2011.

That kind of distracts from the main purpose of the red mage, though. Jack of All Trades and whatnot. I say if you have to change it just cut it out. They can pick it up if they really want it anyway.

I guess you could replace it with another ability - for example, getting a bonus to healing spells for one round if you smack something with a sword, bonus to damaging spells after healing, and bonus to attack after damaging something with a black magic spell (or reversed, whatever). I'd rather get a unique ability than a bonus feat, honestly.

Again, do not think of it as an extra feat. Think of it as a feature of the class. Weapon Finesse is basically a "feat tax" placed on builds that wish to be high-dexterity builds. We believed this to be unfair. Given that the red mage is only proficient with two martial weapons, we didn't want Longswords to be the only viable option. Thieves were originally going to get the same feat for free, but we wanted a ranged variant to be as viable from the get-go. The fact that we then decided to give them the TWF line and proficiency with all martial weapons later saw to it that they did not get it for free.

Asking why the DEX-centric Red Mage option gets a helping hand is like asking why the STR-centric D&D Barbarian or the CHA-centric Paladin gets a "helping hand." That's just how the classes were designed.

Combat Expertise is the first one I've heard that's somewhat viable, actually. Also keep in mind if Combat Expertise is given to them, now they need 13 INT. I would call someone who went with Combat Expertise on a Red Mage rather silly. That's 1-5 points in point-buy most Red Mages would never spend. Silly. You may ask what it matters if it's a free feat, they need not have the 13 INT. We didn't give any particular class feats that they would not already qualify for in 99% of instances. Giving Red Mages Combat Expertise goes against this design concept as well. Rarely will Red Mages select 13 (or 14) intelligence. Furthermore, the child feats of Combat Expertise are all technical, fighting feats for melee combat. This is too weighted for melee proficiency. Red Mages are not supposed to be good at advanced techniques in anything unless they spend their normal feats to do so. You'll also notice all of the free feats we grant other classes don't have child feats (apart from Improved Unarmed Strike for Black Belts but that is not possible to separate that from the class). There is a reason for this.

I will bring this up with the other creator, but again: a choice of Combat Expertise -or- Weapon Finesse would this go against the free feats given to the three melee classes. The point of it was that pure mages got free mage feats (which are customizable) and the melees got free feats (or class features easily recognizable because there are already feats that do them) that were specifically not customizable. Red mages get some of each.

Power Attack won't happen. Red Mages are not combat brutes. If you want that, select it with one of your three feats you get in the first three levels.

And I'd like to make the point that if the feat weren't there in the first place, this discussion would never have started--ever. I urge you step back and re-examine what you're actually expending your time and effort over. Also consider if it is worth your DM's time to continue to respond to the similar points you've already made clear.

edit-
extra word
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:57, Mon 21 Feb 2011.

I was thinking about implementing a mechanic especially for this game that I always liked. It wouldn't really have much of an effect on actual play-testing, I don't believe. This will not be in the actual game, but I might make a note of it in the DMG as an alternate rule-set.

I'll let you guys decide if you like it and we'll go from there. ZEIG, this should be most familiar to you. VIL, you may also recognize the inspiration for this.

GAME DAY EFFECTS ON SPELLCASTING

Every ingame day has a corresponding element. Apart from convenient nomenclature and time-keeping, they are tied to an ancient, primal cycle the world undergoes regularly. The effects are subtle, but the ancient races of the world picked up on this cycle inherent to nature itself since the time of the gods. There is a reason all cultures have had the same sequence of eight days assigned to the same elements, though their words for them may have been different.

1. Caster Level Effects:
Each day has all spells of that element increase slightly in power, while spells the element is strong against has its effects weakened. This manifests itself as a +1 bonus to your Caster Level for the purposes of any spell tied to the day's, and a -1 penalty to your Caster Level for the purposes of any spell tied to the element that is weak against it.

Example:
It is Lightningsday. Thunder, Shock, Disrupt, etc all receive a +1 bonus to their effective caster level. This could potentially make Shock more potent, it will make Thunder deal more damage, and Disrupt might last a little longer. It also means that enemies with spell or elemental resistance are slightly less apt to resit your spells.
However, Poison, Water II, Regen, etc all receive a -1 penalty to their effective Caster Levels. This means poison will do less damage and/or last less time, Water II will do less damage and might have its additional effects reduced, and Regen may last slightly less time, healing for slightly less. Also, water elemental spells are also slightly easier to resist for those that have spell or elemental resistance.


2. Saving Throw Effects
Along the same vein of thought, all spells tied to the element of the day have their save DC's increased by one. All spells of the element the day is strong against have their save DC's decreased by one.

Example:
It is Lightsday. ZEIG casts Harm. Not only could it do one more point of damage due to the increased caster level, but the save DC vs. being destroyed for undead is also increased by one, making it particularly devastating.
Shortly afterward, DAI casts Sleep. The save DC enemies most make is lowered by one, which makes it slightly easier to resist.


3. This applies to ALL spells and spell like abilities, be they cast by players, NPCs, boss monsters, or items.

END


This adds one more small thing to keep track of, yes, but it does offer a bit of a thematic flair to the day cycle. This isn't something your characters should be too explicitly aware of. Camping outside of a dungeon of undead for six days, waiting for it to be Lightsday again, should not usually come across your character's minds.

Elemental arrows and status bolts added to the vendor thread. That is their initial pricing scheme, and is subject to change. Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

All of those things were available in Cornelia, and since DAI has a bow, I'll let him retroactively buy some of them if he wishes.


Thoughts on status bolts:
Gives a reason for a rogue to use a hand crossbow, among other things. The saves are low enough to not be consistent, but are high enough to proc at least some of the time having very useful results when they do.

Thoughts on elemental arrows:
Ranged damage has always sucked ass. This lets a Fighter or Thief with a bow actually do some damage.

No bloody bolts? *wink*

My first thought was actually acid bolts when I saw the post, but then I realized that it wouldn't make sense for it to be a temporary debuff, it would eat through armor to reduce AC.  Also, acid usually just deals damage in D&D anyways.

I'd like to see some rarer status bolts too, things that aren't available at level 1 (or purchase at all).  Rusting bolts would accomplish something similar to FFXI acid bolts (container of fluid on the end of the bolt instead of an arrow head, ranged touch attack), they could be a very weak version of a rust monsters rust (-1 to AC on that armor permanently or until repaired).  Say if you're not encountering these until level 9-11 and they only work on armored creatures (or something metal, iron golem I'm looking at you) it doesn't seem so bad.  Just an example of something that isn't made available right at the beginning.

-edit- I guess they could just be Dia Bolts.

I really like the idea of these for thief, giving them a little more variety in their attack options.

Elemental arrows look sweet.  Do they stack with magic bows?  I was under the impression that a magic bow enchanted any arrows that flew from it unless they had a higher enchantment already.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:05, Mon 07 Mar 2011.

Normally, in vanilla D&D, an arrow must be magical (at least +1 in of itself) to be enchanted. These arrows have magical arrowheads on them that deal elemental damage, but are not otherwise "enchanted".

So yes, the elemental arrows, and status bolts for that matter, stack with magical bows.

So if you had a +2 flaming bow and bought yourself some lightning arrows, you would deal all sorts of damage with your ranged attacks. Let's assume that you have a +2 flaming composite (+2) longbow with greater lightning arrows (this is expensive as hell, mind you).

1d8 + 4 physical
1d6 fire
1d12 lightning

18.5 average damage a hit, assuming that there are no resistances or weaknesses to the different damage types.

But yeah. If you are a Fighter or a Thief with a bow, or in DAI's case a Black Mage, you can fork over some gold to deal decent damage.

And honestly, the Thief we have makes an amazing ranged character. All of your early feats for your shortbow (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc) work with the Ninja's Throw ability. Ninja's gain martial proficiencies at level 11 so you can upgrade to a Longbow if you like. Later on, when you get two-weapon fighting, dual-wielding a crossbow (with Rapid Reload) and a throwing shurikens (you get Quick Draw for free) is fucking awesome.



As far as you penalty to AC bolt idea:
Red Mages, Black Mages, and White Mages all have abilities that lower the target's AC.

You can Blind someone (or make yourself invisible), throw Dia and Rasp on them, or deny them their dex bonus in about a bajillion other ways. Effects that lower saves or lower AC we try to shy away from because there are so many spells that already do that. Most of them are basically non-resistible, making them especially devastating.

If you're wondering what they are: Shock/Frost/Choke, Fear, Bio. Look at these spells. Love these spells.

We also wanted to stay away from rust effects or sunder effects for the most part. The only thing we have added to the system that does damage to items is the Ninja's Throw ability, and only because canonically, Throw destroys what you just chucked at your enemy.
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:17, Mon 07 Mar 2011.

Potions and other consumables are a large part of the Final Fantasy series of games. As such, changes to the way the feat "Brew Potion" and the Craft skill in relation to alchemy are going to undergo some changes.

Brew Potion
(brief)
Brew Potion will now add a +2 bonus on all Craft (Alchemy) checks. It will also allow you to create potions for spells you do not know or even potions for spells that are not on your class's spell list. It also enables you instill potions with your own magical knowledge.

Craft (Alchemy) DC per potion changes.
Due to the chemical, magical, and alchemical properties of potion's ingredients, they cannot be created over a large stretch of time. As such, brewing a potion requires only one day's (8 hours) worth of work. If for some reason the brewing process cannot be completed in less than 24 hours, the process fails and all materials are lost.

Every potion will now have a craft DC assigned to it. For low level potions the DC will be quite low. If you succeed, the potion is successfully created. If you do not meet the craft DC, the potion is not created and 8 hours of your character's time is wasted. If you fail by more than 5 you lose all of the materials (and therefore money) required to make the potion. For every 5 you exceed this check, the time required to complete the brewing process halves. For example, if you exceed the DC for crafting a potion by 15, the process only requires one hour as opposed to eight.

The base DC to craft a potion is (Spell Level + Caster Level + 5) * 2.

The cost of the materials required to create a potion are equal to one-half of the base price. Crafting potions no longer requires expending any of your character's experience points.

You can only craft potions with a Caster Level equal to or less than your character's level. A potion must always have a Caster Level sufficient to cast a certain level of spell (IE: 5th level spells must have a Caster Level of 9 or higher). Without the Brew Potion feat, you can only craft potions that your character knows how to cast.

Certain spells are class-specific. Enspell, Elemental Armor, and Blink are all examples of such spells. Crafting potions for these spells doubles their base price and increases the craft DC by 1.5x, or half again their original DC. For example, A White Mage crafting a potion of Restore would have to succeed on a DC 30 Craft (alchemy) check ((2+3+5)*2)*1.5. A Black Mage with the Brew Potion feat attempting to do the same would have to succeed on a DC 45 (((2+3+5)*2)+10)*1.5 Craft (alchemy) check.

The person consuming the potion is always the target of the effect as well as its source. This makes some potions nearly worthless in all situations, IE: a potion of Libra. Although, if you could convince someone a potion of Fire II is actually a potion of Cure...

The rules for determining the effect of potions remains the same (DC 25 Spellcraft) with one addition. You may also use a craft (alchemy) check to take a minuscule sample of the potion to identify it. The DC to determine the potion's effect is 5 less than the original DC to create it. Therefore, even very basic potions created by advanced alchemists that duplicate spells they cannot cast may be quite hard to identify in this way. Sampling a potion for this purpose does not reduce its effectiveness.

Characters using craft (Alchemy) can never "take 10" unless they have some special ability that allows them to do so.


Brewing Potions with the Brew Potion feat
If you have the Brew Potion feat you can craft potions for spells that you could not normally cast. Crafting a potion for a spell that you do not know increases the base DC by 5. Crafting a potion for a spell that does not appear on your spell list increases the base DC by 10. For example, a Black Mage using this feat could craft potions of Cure.

You may also personally cast the spell the potion will duplicate while crafting it. In doing so, the DC is increased by 5, and the following options are available:

-Any feats you may possess that increase the caster level of spells apply but do not raise the craft DC or cost of the potion. (IE: Enhancing Mastery)
-Any feats you may possess that increase the save DC of the effect, if any, apply. (IE: School Focus: Enfeebling on a potion of Poison)
-Any metamagic feats you may possess can be instilled into the potion. They increase the spell level as normal (and therefore the craft DC and cost) but otherwise may offer beneficial effects in excess of this added cost. (IE: Extend Spell)


Tools of Craft (alchemy)
Not using any sort of alchemy equipment confers a -20 penalty on all Craft (alchemy) checks.

A mobile alchemist's kit that contains various tools and equipment costs 200gp and weighs 12lbs. The carrying case is included and is watertight, but has no room for any other items or ingredients. Mobile alchemist's kits are simply too basic and rudimentary to be either masterwork or magically enhanced.

An alchemist's lab costs 500gp, weighs 40lbs, and confers a +2 bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks.

A masterwork alchemist's lab costs 2,000gp, weighs 50lbs, and confers a +3 bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks.

Magical alchemist's labs also exist. The magical components can actually automate simple tasks and have magical timers, tools, and measuring devices to assist in your work. Magical labs are of the same size and weight of masterwork labs.
+1:  4,000gp, +4 bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks.
+2: 10,000gp, +5 bonus
+3: 20,000gp, +6 bonus
+4: 34,000gp, +7 bonus
+5: 52,000gp, +8 bonus


I have a fuck ton of math and tables that plot out relevant average DC's capable by wealth and by character level. This is subject to change at any time.

Divine Insight does not work for Craft (alchemy) and soon the ability will contain text describing why. (Divine Insight only works for skill checks that require a small amount of time like Ride, Knowledge (whatever), and Spellcraft.

Due to the optional rule we voted to include, the day of the week will also affect potion's effects at the time they are created.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:48, Thu 08 Dec 2011.

Would people be able to swap skill points around to possibly add this option in?  Without points in it it would be hard to use. :P  Do class bonuses affect potions? (Healing Mastery, Spell Potency)  I ask because the text specifically outlines feats and metamagic, wasn't sure on these.

Looks good and looks like it will actually be a viable option to pursue (HATE XP to craft rules), other than the fact alchemist labs are heavy......spoons are heavy too.

Let me make sure I'm understanding it right.

Cure and Cure II

(I included healing mastery in the whm stuff, obviously different if this isn't right)
WHM level 5, knows both, has feat, has +10 (+12 from feat) craft alchemy.
Cure - DC 14 for 1d8+2 CL1, DC 22 for 1d8+6 CL5 (or is it minimum CL only?)
Cure II - DC 26 for 2d10+6 CL5

RDM level 5, knows cure, has feat, has +9 (+11 from feat) craft alchemy
Cure - DC 14 for 1d8+1 CL1, DC22 for 1d8+5 CL5
Cure II - DC 31 for 2d10+5 CL5
normally RDM couldn't cast this at level 5 but if BLM can brew it at 5 and can't cast it at all I wasn't sure if this applied, obviously since it's not on the spell list the DC is higher

BLM level 5, knows neither and not on spell list, has +12 (+14) craft alchemy
Cure - DC 24 for 1d8+1 CL1, DC32 for 1d8+5 CL5
Cure II - DC 36 for 2d10+5 CL5

If things like healing mastery and spell potency work, does the caster level (if it can be more than minimum or less than maximum) need to be the appropriate level for this class ability? I.E. Cure CL1 = 1d8+1 or 1d8+2 made by a level 5 whm (1d8+1 or 1d8+5 from a level 20 whm)

- Sorry if I missed something, just saw there was an edit to your post after I started writing this.

- Also, no real issue with making it insanely hard to brew potions that are class specific if you're not that class, but the 1.5x bonus and the extra +5 from it not being on your spell list seems a little redundant.

Meaning for restore (SL2 + CL3 +5)* 2 = 20, +5 for not knowing it, +5 for it not being on spell list = 30, * 1.5 for it being class specific = 45.  Like I said, no real issues here but it seems like stacking multiple penalties for the same reason (the not on spell list +5 and class specific * 1.5).  Just checking to see if that was intentional.  If * 1.5 replaced the extra +5 it would significantly reduce the DC though (37 or 38 for restore from a BLM).

A 20th level BLM would likely be able to make this potion.  23 skill points, +6 from INT, +3 more from item enhancement to INT, +2 from feat, +6 from a pimpin' alchemy lab.  That's a +40 right there, so 3/4 chances of making a potion of restore at DC 45, guaranteed at 37-38.  Of course, this is at level 20.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:36, Sat 19 Mar 2011.

Back to ZEIG's question:

Yes, you can always swap skill points around. Check out the introduction thread to see the normal retraining rules that this campaign has. Because this is a change to the rules, I'd also be much more lenient about the changes. If you wanted to swap skill points from more than one skill into Craft (alchemy) I'd allow it. I'll also allow you to retrain a feat or something like that in conjunction with the skill point changes, in so long as they only dealt with Craft (alchemy).

You have the DC's correct, save for one mistake.

The 1.5x cost modifier is only for spells that are class-specific, right, and this is for a damn good reason. Class-specific spells are generally insanely powerful spells for their level. Brewing potions for them so that you can grant them to other classes is intentionally very difficult. The fact that a class wants to replicate a spell that it cannot cast should stack with the 1.5x penalty. Not having a particular class in the game pretty much is supposed to cut you off from their unique spells such as Basuna, Phalanxga, and Elemental Armor. Being able to reproduce them at all, even if at very high levels, is very powerful.

Also note that potions of Restore are available for purchase in most major towns pretty much anywhere. Making them yourself, when you're not a White Mage--that's difficult.

A Black Mage wanting to craft a Blink potion (because it's fucking awesome) could actually meet this DC. Let's assume the potion is CL 4 so it actually lasts a few rounds.
((1 + 4 + 5)*2 + 10)*1.5 = 45.
That is very doable at later levels but is hard, and should be hard, at levels when he can normally craft low-level potions with no problem.

Red mages, yes, would take the +5 increase in DC for Cure II until level 7 when they could add it, and only if they add it, to their spells known.

About your question about class abilities, etc:
No, those will not work. Only feats apply. It would be hilarious if Spell Potency worked for Red Mages, or fucking awesome if Healing Mastery worked for White Mages, but they don't. Too harsh of a balance point.

edit-
thought experiment.

You're a level 20 Black Mage. You are a world-ending bad-assed motherbitch. You have 23 int (18 + all 5 extra points). You bought a fucking +3 INT tome because you're rich, bitch, for 26 base int. You also are wearing a +6 INT item.

+11 from INT.
+23 from skill points.
+5 from SF: Craft(alch) and Brew Potion.
+8 from your bad assed lab of bad-assery.
Total: +47
On average, that's DC 57 potions. If you got lucky and had time and money (which you do!) you can pop out DC 63 potions occasionally. Look at what you can do with that. Pretty intense.
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:39, Sat 19 Mar 2011.

Understandable, just checking.




I figured as much, just clarifying.



I deliberately didn't roll a maxed one to see if it was possible without taking every advantage for that skill.  I like the system.  It's also really nice for black mage due to craft being intelligence based. :D  Not to mention white mage not wanting most black magic spells (although elemental armor in potion form...).
This message was last edited by the player at 04:39, Sun 20 Mar 2011.

The other creator had this to say about Divine Insight and potentially nerfing it. He is against changing it from its current state:

I don't really have a big problem with it as it is. Unlike the factotum, this skill eats into the limited number of usages you have per day for all of the other abilities.

As far as knowledge checks go, a character that wants to use the ability in this manner really doesn't get too much out of it. For example, at level 9 with a +3 from INT you're getting a +12. Assuming your one rank in Knowledge( Whatever) that's 1d20+13.

A knowledge check is 10+HD to identify a creature and learn one useful fact about it and then +5 for every extra useful fact. So if you guys are fighting a 9 HD monster right now, that's DC19 just to know a single useful thing. The average roll for a character using the skill in this manner at level 9 is 23, or just enough to know one thing and a good chance to know two.

It's not unlikely to fight monsters that have a disproportionate CR:HD ratio, which means you could easily be busting this skill on a 14HD monster at this level and not even make the DC to even identify it.

On top of that, they just ate into their budget for the other effects, including the one that increases their saves.

Used for Knowledge checks it would represent a divine being granting you information through prayer, etc.

As a player, if I knew I could use the ability in this way I don't think I would ever build or design a character in this fashion. Mixed-group fights (which you guys will be encountering much more of) absolutely kill this given the 1/day limit. Unless I thought it was a critical emergency I would never use a charge for a Knowledge check, and even then I would seriously hope the bonus would be huge, otherwise what would be the point? And then you're locked out of using it again for the day, so your 1 rank in a skill at level 10 most likely is useless.

Scenario: I use this on a 1+X Knowledge(Religion) check on an undead monster and learn two useful things. I then have no idea what the other two types of undead in the fight are capable of. Then after the fight the party comes across some holy runes or ruins and now I can't tell them jack shit about it and the party bumbles their way into some bad mojo. Not only that, I just ate into my +saves. It just isn't worth that gamble. I would treat it as an emergency button and use it as thus. I wouldn't build for routine useage when I could just lean over and ask "Hey, Pointy Hat, what the fuck is that thing and what is going to do to me?"

Best use ever would be... HAHA TUMBLE WHITE MAGE BITCHES. At least if I played the White Mage it would be.

Status effects that are granted by items, and are there for constant, will be in bold from now on.

More news, and then I am going to bed.

Rough basics of Bard class hammered out. I am extremely pleased so far, and I believe it fits in very well with the "retro" and core FF experience that we were shooting for with the original six classes.

Blue Mage hasn't made much progress in the last few months but that's because all of the basic ideas were fleshed out way back when. All that comes now are thought-experiments and the semi-long road of balance considerations. The Blue Mage is probably the most strenuous for the DM, as he will have the added responsibility of keeping in mind the Blue Mage's desire to encounter enemies with learnable abilities. This mostly means giving the player opportunities, but just as importantly, it means not giving the player an opportunity to learn an amazingly strong ability too early (Remember in FF7 when you could learn Beta off of that snake thing and then one-shot all encounters for about the next 15 hours of gameplay?).

Again, these two classes are meant to be played ONLY if you have a 5th PC in the campaign. They are fairly special classes that really don't fill one of the core roles the other six do. (Indeed, the bard really only shines when buffing up four party members, not just three). They are meant to be fun and provide extra players with more options so they don't feel like they're stuck with only the two classes that are "left overs".

Much like our current base classes, these are going to end up differing very heavily from Viladin's.

Blue Mage is 75% completed. Flavor-ish text needs to be added, and some balance afterthought and critical thinking needs to be applied. It's kind of cheating, because the main burden of the class is on the DM who has one in his game, so there's no spell list to create or anything.

Bard is 25% complete. The class has absolutely no pretty text and I'd like to work in about 4 or 5 more songs, mostly offensive. The class abilities are declared, but their actual mechanics and at what levels they get everything aren't cemented yet. The bulk of the brain-storming work is done, now comes double re-thinking everything. I also don't know what to call the prestige 10 levels yet. It's really hard to make a faggy bard sound cool, heh.

I'm starting to think that my craft (alch) points are kind of a waste.  A black mage has everything to gain from using it, INT as casting stat, not really 2 statted like WHM with WIS/CHA, etc.  Black mages also have the spells that would be really useful for it (RDM might have some useful ones, phalanx/refresh) since they are not readily available at 1/4 the price at the shop.

The main reasons I wanted to take these was to make cure potions, but the shops sell them for almost what it would cost to make them.  Right now we have an excess in alchemical supplies, so no big issue, but spending 375GP to make a Cure II potion when you can buy one for 450GP without blowing valuable skill points and GP on labs seems silly.  That's not even mentioning the DC is 26, so even on the ship with max ranks and an INT of 14 (pretty good for WHM) I have about a +12, or 30% chance of actually succeeding on it (if the ship is still).

Also, it is impossible to make money with in any way.  The potions people want to buy are restorative, and the NPCs automatically sell/buy them at lower rates for parties that don't have WHM/RDM.  The other types of potions are, well, worthless apparently.

The ones I see being most effective are Blink at high levels, Vanish, and perhaps Veil in strange circumstances.  Bar-element would be, except that you choose the element at the time of production.  There are a few cases where this might be handy (Volcano, Ice Cave, Water adventures) but overall mostly not useful, a bar-elementra spell would be much more effective in most cases.  Protect/Shell might be good for parties that don't have a white mage, but parties that do have a white mage that's just silly.  If there's a one time thing where a person needs a potion of protect/shell he can have an NPC make it custom for him.  Aquaveil might be useful for a black mage.

In summary:
30% chance with the lab on the boat with max ranks and a decent INT to make a Cure II potion for 75GP less than I could buy it.  75GP might not be worth 8 skill points (2 entire levels worth for me), the GP spent on the labs (that we haven't really bought any of yet), and the ring that I bought specifically to give me time to craft.

I don't know, is there something I'm not seeing here?  Making Cure 1 potions is good, but if that's all the use I'm going to get out of it then I'll probably retrain as early as humanly possible.  Currently craft (alch) is the only skill I have maxed and it's starting to look like it was a very bad choice for a white mage.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:40, Wed 20 July 2011.

No crafting skill will ever make you money. Purge that thought from your mind.
No crafting skill will ever even really save you a bunch of money. Purge that thought from your mind.

And the Bar-element potion thing: Potions are nearly weightless. And half of the time the element that will be desired will be quite obvious, just like you mentioned. Protect/Shell and Veil being silly? Supreme MP savings. Also, you are level 5. You are poor and have 8 ranks into it, and don't have a way to magically improve your intelligence yet.

Remember, you can create more than just potions with craft (alchemy). And Remember, DAI took it as well so you can give each other +2 to your checks.

And finally, a level 1 Human Expert could have a higher bonus than you with the same Intelligence and same tools. You're not that devoted to it, or you would have taken SF(C:A) and Brew Potion.

And Craft (alchemy) does really shine best for parties without a White Mage, yes. The instant mileage you get out of Cure potions will last throughout the game. The fact that two of you took it, is, I'd imagine, not a common thing that will happen.

Is it geared more toward Black Mages? Well, no, not really. They have higher INT, so they are better at ALL crafting, not just craft (alchemy).

I just took the original craft (alchemy) skill and piled on a BUNCH of other uses for it mostly centered around making potions. If you don't think you like it, and won't get use out of it? Retrain it later.


Oh, by the way. Alchemy supplies weight 1lb per 50gp.

This kinda blows my mind.  This is the entire purpose behind crafting magical items.  If it's not going to save you money or make you money, why put points in it?

For craft (alch) it doesn't bother me that we're not making money, but not really saving money (especially when considering the opportunity cost of skill points) kind of defeats the purpose.  I didn't say Veil was silly, it was listed as one of the more plausible uses.  Protect and Shell are essentially worthless as potions if you have a WHM.  Supreme MP savings?  To get useful levels of AC and Saves out of them they have to be incredibly expensive, and they only affect 1 person vs. the WHM AoE spells.

I think if I was a red mage I would take this stuff.  I was planning on taking brew potion next level, but I think I'd rather forego the retraining feats that I was going to do and move skill points out of craft alchemy as quickly as possible.  I was hoping I was simply not seeing better uses for it but apparently it's just not worth it as a white mage IMO.  I could just buy the ones I was going to make with a few small exceptions, and those could be purchased custom made (which implies more expensive, but really, I just got offered 50GP which is the same price as a cure potion for 3 minutes of Aquaveil).  If for some reason those potions are 30k then oh well fuck it.

I'm not really critiquing the system per say as making a note.  I can't foresee enough use for white mage potions to expend crucial skill points, feats, and GP.  The reason I said Black Mage might be better (besides their obviously better modifiers) is because of the Black Mage spell list.  Elemental armor/spikes/haste sound pretty awesome.  Red Mage sounds equally interesting (I think, not very read up on them in this game) if things like phalanx and refresh can be made into potions.

D&D v3.5 Tumbling rules:

Tumbling requires double movement cost to perform. When tumbling through (which basically means out of) an enemy's threatened space, you can choose to tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity. In many cases when fighting normal-sized creatures, this is only one square, yes. (Fig 1.) But if you're fighting a bigger creature with reach you may have to tumble for many, many squares. (Fig 2.)

Fig 1. Tumbling by a medium opponent with 5' reach.
.....
.4...
..3..
.E.2.
....1
The first square of movement from 1 to 2 costs 5' as per normal for diagonal movement. The second move into E's threatened space costs 10' as per normal diagonal movement. When entering a threatened area you do not provoke, only when leaving. To leave E's threatened area without provoking an attack of opportunity, you must tumble. Tumbling costs double movement, which is always 15' of movement when tumbling diagonally. Total movespeed consumed for this turn: 30'.

Fig 2. Tumbling by a Large opponent with 10' reach.

.....8
.....7
.....6
..EE.5
..EE.4
.....3
.....2
.....1

Moving from 1 to 2 puts you inside of E's threatened area. It costs 5' of movement. Once inside, you must tumble every square you leave inside of E's threatened area. From 2 to 3, 3 to 4, and so on. Moving from 7 to 8 is the last square you'd have to tumble. All in all, this movement requires 75' of move speed to complete.

Keep in mind, especially later in the game, that you have the option to do an accelerated tumble. You take a -10 penalty to your check but can move at full speed. Even if you only have a small chance of this, and you have to move anyway, you may as well try because there is no penalty for failing. You simply have a chance to avoid the AoO where you otherwise would not. When tumbling at full speed in a straight line, I also allow you to take the Charge action.

This will be moved to the Mechanics discussion at a later time.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:59, Tue 25 Oct 2011.

Job-specific spells being crafted into potions now only doubles the price of the potion, not quadruple it. The main post describing the system has been updated accordingly.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:21, Thu 08 Mar 2012.

I just realized I never included the part of the text that mattered for the Jack of All Trades ability Red Mages get at level 8.

They gain Open Minded for free, and the skill points gained can be used for any skill, even cross-class ones.

The next time we get the PDFs out I'll delete this post.

Alright. This is now in effect, and I apologize but we've still not found a suitable replacement for wave so I can't give you updated PDFs.

We'll probably transfer most of this stuff to a forum so that it can be viewed by everyone in real-time.

The following changes affect all spell levels.

Aero damage dice reduced to d8's from d10's.
Stone damage dice reduced to d10's from d12's.

Water (d8), Thunder (d8), Blizzard (d8 -> d10), and Fire (d12) remain unchanged at this time.

We're not using the RAW Diplomacy and other social skill checks exactly. For Bluff, any time you're trying to conceal your words, leave out an important and major detail you would otherwise include in an honest response to a question, or flat out lie, it requires a Bluff check, in increasing difficulty. I am very liberal with bonuses for compelling arguments or how much of a bluff you're attempting to make.

TL;DR: You know when you're trying to say something sheisty. When you do this, roll a Bluff.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:26, Tue 06 Mar 2012.

As stated in the SRD, attacking objects with elemental energy has varying degrees of effectiveness:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm

For the new elements this system uses, in addition to the ones listed in the previous source, consult the following:

Energy damage types that deal full damage to objects:
Acid
Sonic

Note: both of these damage types are uncommon in this campaign setting, though are present.

Energy damage types that deal 1/2 damage to objects:
Fire
Lightning
Earth

Energy damage types that deal 1/4 damage to objects:
Ice
Wind
Water


edit-
I'll delete this post when we republish updated PDFs.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:20, Thu 08 Mar 2012.

Well, yes, but that SRD also employs acid, sonic, and force damage, most of which are attainable at level 1. Also, all you need is a good night's sleep to get your spells back. The rules for objects taking reduced elemental damage uses a completely different system, one in which force damage and acid/sonic are relatively common.

I'm not saying change the system, but it is rather irritating that a level 2 fighter could hack away for a minute, expending no resources to break the chain, while a level 6 black mage who's only job is to destroy things with magic can expend several costly resources and still not break the chain. MP is a costly resource, bard songs notwithstanding.

He has a right to be irritated.

Sonic/Acid/Force still do not ignore hardness. I challenge you to find a level one spell in D&D that could break this chain reliably in few castings, let alone one.

Now, both systems have level 2 spells that could much more easily do it. (I'm looking at you, Fire and Shatter.)

Moreover, I challenge you to be able to cast 50+ level one spells in D&D by level 6. Yes, they are different systems, but yes, they are similar enough to where this particular rule-set is entirely justifiable, if not even more so.

And I'm not sure if DAI the player is annoyed, but I can absolutely understand how DAI the character is, and I applaud him role-playing accordingly.


One of you could bring out a crowbar or sword and go to town on the wooden trapdoor for a couple of minutes and obliterate it. DAI has 12 strength. 1d8+1 damage vs. an object with 5 hardness will get through it. It just takes time, and DAI might see that kind of action as beneath him, though I don't know. Also, ZEIG, white mages have proficiency with all hammers. You could have a warhammer in that backpack if you wanted. 1d8-1 would take a freaking while, but you could do it. That's just the drawback of being a weak-ass.

God forbid that the game (3.5 or this house-rule-laden version of it) have a niche for big stupid fighters that mages can't fill!


edit-
And let me say that the entire situation that sparked this discussion is incredibly humorous to me. It's just a damn wooden door with a chain put through the handle and something else below it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:45, Thu 08 Mar 2012.

Not against the fighters filling a niche that mages can't fill, but as we've been a mostly mage party, we encounter that particular niche quite often, say, the entire campaign, which is probably why it rubs a little raw. All I need is to be a halfling so I can't reach the top shelf either, ha.



Acid and sonic attacks do ignore hardness under this ruling, although I'm not sure why sonic does. Unless this is a terribly worded paragraph, which wouldn't surprise me, but how does acid not eat through something because it is too hard? It's a chemical reaction.

Fire, on average, will not break the chain in one hit.

As to why we didn't target the wooden door in the first place, well, I'm not so sure about that one.

Also, the 50+ level one spells by level 6 is balanced by the fact that MP is a valuable resource and meant to last over several days, rather than something gained back every day. This is waaaay better than vancian magic, which I kind of hate.

I like the system usually, it just blows my mind that the black mage can't reliably break a chain by level 6 without potentially using up 10% of his resources when he is supposed to be damage incarnate.

I was looking at that ruling on acid and sonic, and actually, they do not ignore hardness. The reason why it says anything about hardness for the others is that it needs to explicitly declare when you apply hardness, before or after the damage is halved or quartered, because that greatly influences how much total damage is dealt

Now, it is very possible to craft or find acids that are especially good or bad at harming particular materials. For instance, acid from a normal ooze doesn't affect metal at all, though it burns through flesh just fine. There are some obscure acids that don't have any effect on stone but do on metal.

As a DM, I would absolutely allow someone who put ranks into Craft (alchemy) to make an acid that would be specialized in eating through iron and steel, thus reducing or ignoring its hardness completely. This is even included in the text on the SRD, saying how certain situations may call for some attacks to be more effective than others.


And yeah, dude, the door is totally easier to break than the chain.


As for your last comment, yes, he is able to dish out extreme damage, especially to creatures with elemental weaknesses. The drawback is that he's on a resource-based allotment of said damage.

A chain is a relatively tiny thing. It cannot feel pain. It has no heart to stop. It has no blood to lose. Would a longsword to the throat of commoner that dealt 10 damage kill him? Fuck yeah, it'd cut him down to unconsciousness and then he'd quickly bleed to death. Would it phase a steel chain? Not in the slightest. Steel items are pretty damn hard to destroy with what are fairly low-powered gobs elemental energy.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:19, Thu 08 Mar 2012.

Inane question time!

Ostensibly, tumbling through a creatures square is more difficult than tumbling around because the enemy occupies said square, and as such there is less space. However, ghosts don't really fill up the square. Theoretically, I should be able to tumble through the ghost while avoiding his weapons (not that this is necessarily a good idea). Does this affect the DC?
This message was last edited by the player at 02:57, Fri 09 Mar 2012.

Ah... jesus christ. Ok.

The ghost is currently manifested. This makes it go from being ethereal to being incorporeal. It can still "touch" you and shit like that, though it cannot physically move you, nor can it grapple you, etc.

I am going to say that, yeah, you could try to do it. That being said, your character has no idea what being incorporeal even means, so even if it's possible, you'd try to to move through it's square as if it were solid, incurring the penalties.

edit-
There's probably a more detailed ruling on this somewhere, and I'll find it (especially since my RL group is about to walk into the square of ghosttownsville), but until you hear otherwise, assume you can tumble "through" ghosts.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:01, Fri 09 Mar 2012.

Craft (alchemy) and non-potion items.

The DC for creating a flask of acid is 15, as normal. It costs 10 gold and functions as the vanilla D&D item. (Note, it only costs 3 gold and 34 silver to create.)

Alchemist's Fire is also as it is in vanilla D&D (DC 20, 20gp)

There are also versions of the same process for ice, lightning, wind, earth, and water. I will describe those in the vendor list section.



Keep in mind that creating non-potion alchemical items can take several times longer than a day, and you may have to suspend your work while you move. Simultaneously, these items are also fairly cheap to produce.

Refer to this for mechanics:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

When you cast a spell or something similar, please list the little bits of information that are essential to what you're doing. This normally includes:
Save DC?
Additional Effects?
Caster Level if it's different than your level.


I did write 50%+ of the spells and 99% of the songs text, but I can't remember every little thing. You guys know what your spells do, save the poor DM some time and tell me, too.


And as always, don't forget the effect the day has on your spells~

And here is the first time you guys fought some giants.



And if you want to know what this actually looks like:

<table>
<tr><th><tt>--</tt></th><th><tt>0</tt></th>  <th><tt>1</tt></th>  <th><tt>2</tt></th>  <th><tt>3</tt></th>  <th><tt>4</tt></th>  <th><tt>5</tt></th>  <th><tt>6</tt></th>  <th><tt>7</tt></th>  <th><tt>8</tt></th>  <th><tt>9</tt></th>  <th><tt>10</tt></th>  <th><tt>11</tt></th>  <th><tt>12</tt></th>  <th><tt>13</tt></th>  <th><tt>14</tt></th>  <th><tt>15</tt></th>  <th><tt>16</tt></th>  <th><tt>17</tt></th>  <th><tt>18</tt></th>  <th><tt>19</tt></th>  <th><tt>20</tt></th>  <th><tt>21</tt></th>  <th><tt>22</tt></th>  <th><tt>23</tt></th>  <th><tt>24</tt></th>  <th><tt>25</tt></th>  <th><tt>26</tt></th>  <th><tt>27</tt></th>  <th><tt>28</tt></th>  <th><tt>29</tt></th>  <th><tt>30</tt></th>  <th><tt>31</tt></th>  <th><tt>32</tt></th>  <th><tt>33</tt></th>  <th><tt>34</tt></th>  <th><tt>35</tt></th>  <th><tt>36</tt></th>  <th><tt>37</tt></th></tr><tr><th><tt><b>A</b></tt></th>A2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A10<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A11<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A16<td><tt>22</tt></td>  A17<td><tt>22</tt></td>  A18<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A25<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A32<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A34<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  A35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  A39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>B</b></tt></th>B2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B10<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  B11<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  B12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B17<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B18<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B20<td><tt>GG</tt></td>  B21<td><tt>22</tt></td>  B22<td><tt>22</tt></td>  B23<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  B24<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  B25<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  B26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B32<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  B33<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  B34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B37<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  B38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  B39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>C</b></tt></th>C2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C10<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C11<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C15<td><tt>DD</tt></td>  C16<td><tt>JJ</tt></td>  C17<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C18<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C23<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C24<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C25<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C29<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  C30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C31<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  C32<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  C33<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  C34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  C39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>D</b></tt></th>D2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D5<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  D6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D10<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D11<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  D12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D17<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  D18<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  D19<td><tt>33</tt></td>  D20<td><tt>33</tt></td>  D21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D23<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  D24<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  D25<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  D26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D31<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  D32<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  D33<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  D34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  D39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>E</b></tt></th>E2<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E3<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E4<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E6<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E7<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E8<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E10<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E11<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E12<td><tt>44</tt></td>  E13<td><tt>44</tt></td>  E14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E15<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E16<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E17<td><tt>ZZ</tt></td>  E18<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E19<td><tt>33</tt></td>  E20<td><tt>33</tt></td>  E21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E22<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E25<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E26<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E28<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E30<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E32<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E33<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E35<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E37<td><tt>..</tt></td>  E38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  E39<td><tt>..</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>F</b></tt></th>F2<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F3<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F4<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F5<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F6<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F7<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F8<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F9<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F10<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F11<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F12<td><tt>44</tt></td>  F13<td><tt>44</tt></td>  F14<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F15<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F17<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F18<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F20<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F21<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F23<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F24<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F25<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F26<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F28<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F29<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F30<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F32<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F34<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F37<td><tt>..</tt></td>  F38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  F39<td><tt>..</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>G</b></tt></th>G2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G10<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G11<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  G12<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  G13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G17<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G18<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G21<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  G22<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  G23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G25<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G29<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  G30<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  G31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G32<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  G38<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  G39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>H</b></tt></th>H2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H4<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H6<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H10<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H11<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H17<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H18<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H21<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H22<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H25<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H29<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H30<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  H31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H32<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H34<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  H35<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  H36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  H39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>I</b></tt></th>I2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I9<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  I10<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  I11<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I14<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  I15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I17<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  I18<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  I19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I25<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I27<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I28<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I32<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I34<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  I35<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  I36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  I39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>J</b></tt></th>J2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J4<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J5<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J9<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  J10<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  J11<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J15<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J17<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J18<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J25<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J26<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  J27<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  J28<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  J29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J32<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  J39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr><tr><th><tt><b>K</b></tt></th>K2<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K3<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K4<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  K5<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  K6<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K7<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K8<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K9<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K10<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K11<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K12<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K13<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K14<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K15<td><tt>RR</tt></td>  K16<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K17<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K18<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K19<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K20<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K21<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K22<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K23<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K24<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K25<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K26<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K27<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  K28<td><tt>TT</tt></td>  K29<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K30<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K31<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K32<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K33<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K34<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K35<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K36<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K37<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K38<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  K39<td><tt>,,</tt></td>  </tr></table>
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:20, Wed 09 May 2012.

Putting this here so I have it for tomorrow.


#!/usr/bin/env ruby

TOP_LEFT_TWO_CHARS = '--'

file = File.new('map.txt', 'r')

raw_lines = []
line_counter = 1

while (line = file.gets)
  raw_lines << line
  puts "#{line_counter}: #{line}"
  line_counter = line_counter + 1
end

file.close

# determine table dimensions
width = 0
raw_lines.each do |line|
  width = line.length if line.length > width
end
width = width - 1

height = raw_lines.count

#build the damn table
output = '<table>'

#first row, the column labels
output << "<tr><th><tt>#{TOP_LEFT_TWO_CHARS}</tt></th>"
width.times do |counter|
  output << "<th><tt>#{counter % 100}</tt></th>"
end
output << "</tr>"

# each subsequent row
row_label = 'A'
raw_lines.each do |line|
  output << "<tr><th><tt><b>#{row_label}</b></tt></th>"
  row = line.chop.split(//)
  counter = 1
  row.each do |char|
    counter = counter + 1
    output << "#{row_label}#{counter}<td><tt>#{char}#{char}</tt></td>  "
  end
  output << '</tr>'
  row_label.next!
end

output << '</table>'

file = File.new('map_table.txt', 'w')
file << output
file.close

This message was last edited by the GM at 16:20, Wed 09 May 2012.

Ive spent the most time with the fighter since I started looking at this game. I generally love the class and when I first read it the ability Gaurd and Improved Gaurd made me Giddy however after reviewing the mechanics of the fighter I find the abilities to be problematic and almost to the counter theme of the class as a whole. I could attack them mechanically but thats not as important you cant balance one feature with all the others.


First an exert on the pros of the fighter:


Alright so the crux of my flavor issue here is the fact this works only on total defense. Which removes the fighers ability to control the battlefield he loses that entire ability. The fighter to me feels like the defencive tank that keeps swinging playing tit for tat and winning because he can hit you but you cant hit him.  Total defense means all the fighter is doing is weathering attacks not fighting back.

Mechanically I could see two ways to do this. The easiest one would be:
[Shield] you gain the benefits of combat expertise. If you already have the feat combat expertise remove the cap on the attack penalty becomes BAB. (only if equipped with a shield do these work)

The 2nd would involve giving a bonus for total defense and a bonus for fighting defensively balancing them out would be difficult.

This is my theoretical response and I'm fine with things the way they are this is a play test so I figured I would weigh in on it. Ill do other classes if I feel inclined to read them in greater detail.

I'm not sure I understand what your issue is with it.

Guard gives +2 to shield bonus to AC in full defense, if you take full defense you lose the ability to control the battlefield in that you lose AoO. That's the crux of my issue.

So don't use it.

I probably wont use it. I think its a class feature that doesn't fit the class. IMO the class seems to focus on being able to attack not losing all ability to attack for defense. That might be a knight thing but not a fighter thing.

First note: the flavor text on these documents was our original, rough blurbs of ideas. It has since been edited on many classes (all, actually, to varying degrees) from the version you're seeing. A fighter's cited ability to limit an enemy's mobility doesn't really come into play until they are a Knight. That bit could use some changing.


There are feats that already cover sac'ing BAB for AC. Combat Expertise is one, of course. I disdain the general idea of granting free feats that require an ability score to utilize--especially if it's not a vital ability score to that class. Intelligence is easily the 5th most important attribute a fighter possesses if you average out all of the potential builds.

Locking fighters into anything wasn't something we wanted to do, and because it's a pre-req for a lot of other feats, we wanted feat lines like Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes or Combat Vigor or whatever the hell else to be a player choice, not a freebie.

The free feats they do get are all geared to making them generally better with weapons, shields, and armor and to provide simple, easy-to-understand +1's to their stats.


The Guard ability that we gave fighters was just a way for them to really shell up inside of their armor--akin to what you can do in most FF games in lieu of dealing damage. A defensive-centric class only gaining 4 AC for spending an action to do nothing else seemed a bit lackluster, especially since you're not likely to have ranks in Tumble as a thief or black belt assuredly will. Moreover, with the armor as DR/- variant, their overall AC was lowered slightly, so giving them a little extra on the total defense action seemed doubly pertinent.

The Guard ability is not supposed to be a prominent class feature, merely augment an option they already had in combat. The feats a fighter selects, be it power attack and two-handed damaging feats or combat vigor and up that defensive line or whatever else is supposed to be the defining aspect of the character.


I actually don't mind the idea of extending the bonus of Guard when fighting defensively to +1. But the problem there is that it, again, steps on the toes of Combat Expertise, which is exactly what you shouldn't do. Improved Guard, assuming you don't use a tower shield, still works with your Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender abilities, though that is far, far along in the class's development at 17th level.


I guess what I'm mostly trying to say is that I don't really know what you're trying to say. That's why this post was so long.

We're totally open to comments and ideas. Bring them up as often as you want.

And you can Provoke some huge ass-beating enemy. After that, if you know it worked or failed (in the DMG the DM is told to specify if the monster's attention appears to have shifted), you can choose to go on Total Defense because you already know the monster is going to leave your allies alone for this round.

If Provoke fails, or you're not in a hallway or you're not otherwise able to block it with proper positioning, then no, you would probably not use the Total Defense action.

On Combat Expertise option:

Giving a feat that is conditional on wielding a shield doesn't lock a fighter into anything, actually it does it locks the fighter into shields. (Which is already somewhat done). I really like the feeling that a fighter should have a shield. I think that is one of the unique parts of your fighter class.

The biggest issue is the ability doesn't feel powerful enough to make me regret throwing my shield down and pulling out a two handed weapon. Its a slight benefit in one small situation when using a shield.

It may just be my view of flavor and concept and giving combat expertise when using a shield still leaves the option to go down any path you want. It would just raise your defensiveness when wielding a shield and by making it so if you get combat expertise as a feat normally you can go down the combat expertise line of feats if that's your goal or just be able to defend yourself better when you have your shield out. If you throw the shield away they lose both the shield bonus and the defensive power of a powerful feat.

I'm not sure if my point even makes since.

I just feel like the [shield] mechanic should be implemented a bit more. It is cool it should be used.

A good class does not necessarily have only class features that build off one another. In fact, it's not a bad idea to have lots of options; this is the main difference between tier 1's and tier 2's, not power.

Not that I like the level 17 ability. Besides coming really late, I just think that fighting defensively is a superior option. Your shield bonus is likely more than +2 so defense is higher. You can use any weapon you have and you get to actually attack on your turn so you'll almost certainly get more damage. You take a -4 penalty to attacks, though.

EDIT: @ the above post: So you just want more bonuses for shield wielders to offset the strength lost when choosing to wield a shield?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:12, Thu 10 May 2012.

SILI, Right, several of our classes have abilities that aren't necessarily synergistic. Not every class's features are going to be used all the time. Some of them might only see occasional use if a player takes their character in a direction differing from the ability's common use.

And since you brought up the tier system, we were going for all of our classes to be weak tier 3's or very strong tier 4's.



Garus, The down side of throwing your shield on the ground is the loss to AC (including touch AC) as well as the resistances to trip/disarm/bull-rush/grapple etc. If you don't need those things for some reason, then you obviously don't need defense, so why are you even holding a shield to begin with?

And a fighter should have a two-handed weapon with them, or always be aware of the option to drop their shield to use one in both hands. It's a tool in their arsenal. Fighters are what you call "golfbaggers". They should have every type of pieces of wood and steel at their disposal they can carry and then use them when they're appropriate. IE: you can be jokingly said to drag around a golf bag full of weapons.

Reach Weapons, weapons that can be set against charges, high damage two-handers, nets, throwing weapons, bows/xbows, non-lethal weapons (saps), easy to draw light weapons, and hell, even some useful exotic weapons they might not even be proficient with. It goes without saying that, especially at lower levels, you should have a weapon for piercing, bludgeoning, and piercing damage without fail. All of that shit. Put spikes on your shield for good measure (unless you use a tower shield (and you should carry a tower shield and a heavy shield and use whichever is best in the situation)).

The [shield] tag I added in after the class was finished to make it clear which abilities were dependent on it at a glance. We didn't want to make the shield any more central to the class (it's already pretty damn big) lest we discourage anyone from going with a more permanent two-handed route with their characters. Two-handed characters didn't need any special abilities to make them better because two-handed builds are already, due to the way 3.5 works, markedly better than shield users in nearly every situation. 2-H people can still use bucklers and get the benefit of shield specialization/shield ward and only suffer a -1 on their attacks for it. Still a pretty good trade, even if they do lose the benefits when they attack (and it's not hard to carry around a few mwk. bucklers and dequip+drop/equip them in combat).

I wouldn't turn down any ideas on another ability centering on shield use, but at this stage we're trying to stay away from adding any more "+1's" to classes--especially if it stomps all over the toes of feat options.



And a disclaimer: I wrote Red Mage and 90% of Thief, Black Mage, and White Mage. Fighter and Black Belt (other than Mind's Eye) was the other guy, haha.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:41, Thu 10 May 2012.

And by far one of the best damn [shield] abilities a fighter has is Protective Presence. That shit is amazing. It's not some simple +1 or maths-centric crap that's super conditional that you have to keep track of. It's easy to remember, and works.

It also plays into the positioning aspect of the difficulty of fighter and playing with one in the party. Do you stay near the fighter for Cover and Protective Presence, or do you get the fuck back.

If getting the fuck back isn't an option, the above abilities, along with Provoke, give our fighter something to do about you getting beat on that the D&D fighter doesn't have. The D&D fighter just has to stand there and watch you get beat on or shot in the face.


Also, the other creator spelled "presence" incorrectly.


Also, also, if you wanted to have a fighter with lots of charisma, you could pick up the Goad feat and basically have double Provoke. That would be hilarious. One is a Swift action and the other a Move.
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:38, Thu 10 May 2012.

Ill consider a bit.

Here is my first idea for a non +1 or 2 bonus to full defense that's kinda cool. First level of Guard. The fighter is considered one size larger for the purpose of taking up squares. Enemies can reflexively shift out of the square that the fighter is now considered to be occupying or be unable to move without making a Fort save DC:Half the fighters level +str mod.

This is ruff but its kinda a control ability.

Perhaps downgrade it a bit and make it so the Fighter only adds one square to his left and right or just one square on his left and right.

Improved guard allows you to threaten and maybe even makes it so you take up a full size increase with reach befits (thereby raising the range of bulwark defense while in full defense.

May be to much but its kinda cool idea.

Oh, and to make the book I wrote any longer:

We are going to sit down and do a re-pass through all of material here soon. We both agree that some of the Fighter's abilities come a little too late (as in one or two levels only) for starters, among a lot of other things.

Stuff on the table:

1: The above fighter stuff. Will probably also add in a reduction to worn armor's weight vs. your carrying capacity as a separate ability--letting you carry more crap. It's difficult to elegantly work in the thematics/mechanics when they already have Armor Mastery and Heavy Armor Optimization, so it's not quite as simple as it sounds.

2: Black magic damage scaling tests and repass. It's a little over the too high line. The damage is supposed to be very high, but only when utilizing a creature's elemental weaknesses. This change could be done on a per spell basis or by slightly tweaking the progression on the black belt's +damage class feature. It's going to take some number crunching, thought experiments, and liberal use of www.anydice.com

3: Black Belts will probably get Alertness or Track as a bonus feat at an early-ish level, their choice as to which. I'm open to suggestions on a third option.

4: Steal probably going to be changed to wake sleeping creatures and break Vanish.

5: Explicit elaboration on a lot of house-rules. Stuff like tower shields + Shield Ward.

6: Ninja will actually, you know, have a limit break.

7: Master will have its last few levels fleshed out.

8: Knight will have its last few levels worked out.

9: White and Red Mages will have their capstones finished. Black Mages will also get one.

10: Blue Mage will be in a similar unfinished yet "playable" state to bard.

11: Extensive and unapologetic buffing of a red mage's Macaroni ability, even though it was easily already the best feature any class gets.

12: Characters whose name begins with 'D' and ends with 'AI' will have one of their arms chopped off at character creation. And sadly, yes, I'll have to ret-con that into our game even though that was a long time ago. It's a playtest afterall.


Stuff we won't be doing just yet:

10: Final bard tweaks

11: Massive stylistic overhaul. IE: some of our class descriptions use gender, while others do not. Other wordses fixes such as when abilities described aren't descriptified in their descriptions as descriptively as would be desired--with special acknowledgements to rules-lawyering (mechanics should be written to well enough where it's not necessary to begin with).

12: A few high-level magics still need to be finalized and paid attention to. Ultima/XXXX/Holy are on this list.

13: Exportation to proper PDF files.

14: Work on official DMG.

15: Work on compiling all of our scattered-ass notes on monsters and NPCs into a bestiary.


All of this, though, doesn't really affect this party at its current level, which is why I haven't been talking about any of it.

This is a logistical nightmare to put down into paper. What squares around him does he get to "grow" into? What if some of them are blocked, is he then squeezing (which is how it would have to work if you use any previous convention)? And if he's one size larger for taking up squares, then what happens on difficult terrain or slanted terrain or whatever else? They call this a problem that begets other problems what begets other problems, etc.

Fortitude saves generally wouldn't cover that type of situation. In fact, there's really no good way to approach that that I can think of off of the top of my head.



3.0 and prior allowed 1x2 creatures. 3.5, as a matter of explicit finality on the matter, made it to where EVERY creature in EVERY situation, no matter what, takes up a square. I happen to agree with this decision. The lone exception is when you're squeezing, but it's literally called squeezing for christ's sake and you take horri-bad penalties for doing it.



This is kinda hard to make it work thematically, or, much like above, mechanically. If you want more range on bulwark of defense, use a reach weapon. and put a spiked gauntlet on one of your hands (though some DMs don't let that fly; that is up to the particular DM) and dump your shield.



Keep the ideas coming. The worst that can happen is that I say why I don't think that's a good idea.

I am a loser and have nothing better to do on most days than to read what other nerds like you put on the parts of the internet I visit.

Fighters have a Rampart ability that will be shield based. We have tossed around ideas for it being supernatural or extraordinary and what all it could do. It might be broken into two separate things even.

One of the options that was tossed around is that you can give up your shield bonus to AC for the round but grant it to an adjacent square. The action required to do this, if it even took one, would need to be discussed. Whether you could stop doing this at any time, even if it's not your turn, as a free action or you would have to wait until your turn to do it would obviously also be in need of determination.

Wait your thinking like guard from final fantasy. How about this when a fighter takes a full defense he halves physical damage after applying his DR. The damage is rounded up. (Or rounded down with a minimum of 1 damage)

Improved Guard causes any damage to be halved after reducing it by any form of resistance or damage reduction.

Its simple tanky and fits the goal you were looking for.

Rather then halving you could just add the shields AC bonus as a bonus to DR/- However that might be to much with a tower shield. Improved guard makes it so you gain Shield bonus to Ac to Dr and all resistances (this creates resistances if you don't already have them)

Just an idea.

Also I'm taking it as you don't like the previous one so I'm going to drop it.

Protect II, the spell, already does this. Moreover, that's much too incredibly powerful for an (Ex) ability that can be used an unlimited times per day. edit- If you'd like me to elaborate on why I believe that, or anything else, let me know.



A shield shouldn't up your resistances to elemental attacks. DR, maybe, but there are already a lot of sources of DR for fighters to play around with.

A level 10 Fighter in adamantine Full plate +3 already has DR 9/-. That's a pretty intense investment, yes, but it's entirely possible. There's a feat in PHB II (that I think requires BAB +12?) that would give you two more, for a final DR 13/- at level 12 assuming you had +5 armor. If you took an exotic armor proficiency in something from Races of Stone you could get it to DR 14/-. Red mages can also buff that up even further with Phalanxga.

If your DM allows ____ ward crystals from MiC, then that's 1, 3, or 5 more respectively, which really makes it silly. Roll With It is another feat but it requires Toughness and a CON score of 20. I don't allow it because it's from Savage Species but other DMs might.

I think I did the maths way back in the day, and if you did everything possible available to a party of level 20 humans with the source books I normally allow DR 26/- was possible. You don't even need higher than level 12 for the fighter but more caster levels for the red mage levels 13-20 helps a ton.
This message was last edited by the GM at 16:24, Thu 10 May 2012.

I dont have my comp right now but i wanted to respond to one thing.

The warrior that channels holy power through his weapon at will cant channel that power into his sheild on defence to resist magical attacks?

I think for a late knight ability thats not unbelivable.

Knights can't do that until levels 19 and 20--way, way, way, way in the career and campaign of anyone. Other than that and their spells, they are an entirely (Ex) class. If they did get any (Su) abilities, it would have to be very late game to keep the theme we had going.

But in general, themes should adjust to best describe the mechanics, not usually the other way around.

This brings me back to what I was talking about with Rampart, if you read that.

A Shield Other effect may be interesting

About Track/Alertness: May I ask why? It would have fit my character well enough, but not everyone would want one or the other. In general I dislike giving bonus feats.

That seems counter intuitive to me it seems to me that you start out with the concept you want a character class to do. Whether that be a role. A combat style a general ability archetype and then build the mechanical method of putting that idea into existence and then after you have done so you go back and see if what you ended up with meets that idea.

Heres my idea on Rampart some flavor text is added just because i think it helps the concept:

A knight is the valiant defender of his allies. Sometimes one must sacrifice mobility to hold the line. A knight takes a full round action to dig into to his location. As long as he does not move or make any attacks other then AoO he remains dug in. As long as this condition he provides soft cover (or total cover due to protective presence.) against any attack originating or passing through a square he threatens unless the attack targets him. I was thinking maybe adding half his shield bonus to AC to allies adjacent to him but i think providing that much total cover is enough. Also everyone treats squares you threaten as difficult terrain (this includes allies the concept here is the fighter is actively preventing attacks and people from walking through stay out of his way.

The knight has sacrificed mobility for defensive prowess. He is treated as flat footed against all attacks and any attacks that threaten to crit automatically confirm. The Knight is to busy defending his allies to worry about himself.

I just don't like the idea of sacrificing Ac bonus for adjacent allies when he has cover. He can just take the hits for 2 allies indefinitely. (formation all 3 allies adjacent he can just take every blow from every source. Why sacrifice ac when you can do that.)

Also I know sometimes my D&D balance is wonky. My main Game is exalted. The power level of abilities in that game are leaps and bounds higher then D&D. I try to pull the abilities I think of down a bit but I'm more about ideas I figure first you figure out what you want to do then make it happen.

Because you have an idea for what you want to make, then make it. After that, your duty as a designer is to make it place nice with everything else. If this causes you to have to tweak it slightly outside of your original idea, then so bit.

Yeah, that was one of the things (well, something similar) we had considered doing with Rampart.


Having criticals automatically confirm against you is pretty damning, and there are a lot of cheap ways to get around that with fortification and other effects.


And when you sacrifice your shield bonus like that, you're doing it to protect an ally who most likely is still going to be the target of whatever attack was coming their way, instead of you. Moreover, if you use Cover for them, you move into their square, which means that you now have your shield bonus back. If you do in fact get attacked instead, then good, that's what you were hoping for anyway, and it probably wouldn't have happened unless you were protecting your ally. Even though you're out your shield bonus to AC, you still have all of your DR and saving throws.

But this was just an idea, nowhere near finalized, it was simply on the table. There are many like this.

I just got done completely re-writing the elemental subtype/weakness section of the PDF. There were some glaring errors and some conflicting situations. It will be included with the next edition of the PDFs.

For now:

Subtypes

Elemental subtypes of the six basic elements are the same. No caster level checks are involved. You have no modifier for your own elemental type (though many creatures do additionally have resistance/immunity/absorption to their own subtype).

Having the Light or Dark subtype is special. You are weak to the opposite element and strong vs your own.


Weakness/Resistance/Immunity/Absorption

Unchanged, though the wording is better.


Reduction

Unchanged, though with slightly more elaboration. In D&D 3.5 terms, resistance is by how many points incoming damage is reduced. We renamed this to reduction. Just as in D&D, although extremely rare, it is possible to have negative reduction (you take a set amount of extra damage from certain sources). The text now describes this.



Examples:

A fire goblin has the [Fire] subtype. It automatically takes 50% more damage from water attacks and suffers a -2 penalty for saves vs. spells with the water descriptor. It automatically takes 50% less damage from ice attacks and gains a +2 bonus on saves vs. spells and effects with the ice descriptor. Fire goblins are part of the population of creatures that also have resistance to their own subtype. In this case a fire goblin has Fire Resistance, and therefore to cast spells with the fire descriptor on it you must pass a caster level check.

A lightning elemental has the [Lightning] subtype. It automatically takes 50% less damage from water spells and effects and 50% more damage from earth spells and effects. Additionally, it possesses lightning absorption. No caster level checks ever occur.

A treant has no subtype, but has Fire Weakness and Earth Resistance. It automatically takes 50% extra damage from fire attacks with no caster level check required. To affect a treant with an earth spell, you must make a caster level check of 11 + the treant's HD. If you succeed by 21 + HD (ten higher), you affect the treant with the spell as if it had no resistance.

As stated in the PDF, if a creature has both elemental resistance and spell resistance, it uses the best resistance for the situation. IE: If a creature had Spell Resistance 15 and Fire Resistance 18, it would use its fire resistance for all fire spells and spell like abilities and spell resistance for all other magical effects.

Why does Fire II have the limitation of not being adjacent to more then 2 squares? I'm not sure I get the thought process behind that...

Thematically, the point of it was that it was supposed to be like a wall of fire that you create one square at a time rapidly. Because of that, no squiggly junk or balls of areas.

Mechanically, because it is the strongest AoE spell as far as damage is concerned, by far, it has special limitations to keep it from affecting a huge area or to nail an entire group of enemies all clumped up--there are other spells for that.

There is an oversight for the casting times of the "ancient" magics.

Flare, Tornado, Flood, Burst, Quake, and Freeze are full-round casts, not standard actions.

It's so long ago now that it does not matter, but mages will now begin with only three cantrips known. They can buy the rest for extremely cheap.

There were already some cantrips available later in the game at several instances to be learned or even purchased.

The spell list is going to be going through some changes. Stuff of note:

Fire II/III AoE's are getting better defined.
They may have their physical lengths reduced by 1 (but probably not), and the rules about how to create/draw the effect are much more clear and slightly changed.

Harm is getting a "nerf".
The range is staying the same, though the save/full damage is going to be reduced slightly at the edges of it. Basically, you'll do full damage to undead right next to you (and right next to that (and that)), but less to an entire huge room full of them.

Minor wordsing enhancements to a lot of spells.

A bunch of higher level spells have been pseudo-"balanced" after some theorycraft, though they still will require playtesting at some point.


Class features:

The healing/damage mastery of white and black mages is probably going to be reduced to three levels of it slightly more spaced out instead of four levels of it. In their place will be two new class features (and some of the class features you already have might be bumped around a very tiny bit to make all 20 levels give you something). The black magic damage was just slightly too high for black mages, while being perfect for red mages. The change doesn't affect white mages too awfully much, and after some theorycraft, the higher level Heal spells were slightly too potent too soon.

All classes have capstones, and Rampart now does something, but that doesn't really affect you guys.


Nothing has changed as of right now, so keep on truckin', and none of these changes will take place until everyone (except Garus) levels up so that if class abilities are moved, they are much less likely to affect what your character already has.

Ranged touch attack spells (pretty much just all the elemental nukes) are going to be changed slightly. They still have Medium casting range, but will "suffer" from a 60' range increment. Far Shot will make that 90' (and then 180' for the second penalty). Probably not worth taking, no, but having it on a magic item or something wouldn't be awful. Most fights take place in phone booths anyway, or, like DAI, a mage will have Point Blank Shot and prefer to be much closer than 60' anyway if he's got some allies around him.

Don't worry about this in the game right now. Just posting it here for feedback reasons.

The other creator had an idea, which I think I like, but I want your opinion.

Creatures with hit point damage gain a +2 bonus on saves vs. Sleep (and Sleepga and Lullaby).

1: This helps players as well. Remember the fight where both LEO and JACK died due to being slept and slowed down?
2: Most of the time you use Sleep as a crowd control to thin out a fight at the start (like DAI just did in this combat), so creatures won't be injured anyway.
3: It makes sense, thematically, at least in our mind.
4: It makes a lower-level spell slightly less useful against one creature halfway through a fight, especially a boss (or your white mage keeping people alive).
5: It's a balance point for parties, though thoroughly not suggested, that have two black mages. R1: Sleepga -> Stone II, R2: Sleepga -> Stone II, etc, etc is too effective.

It's not outrageous, and considering how much better the Sleep spells are here then in DnD it should be easy enough to accommodate for.

Alright, after this fight, the following change will be implemented. Add the following text to Sleep (and therefore Sleepga by proxy) and Lullaby.

Injured creatures, those with hit point damage (ability score damage or nonlethal does not count), gain a +2 bonus on the save vs. [Sleep/Lullaby].


Let me also say I'm sorry I haven't been able to get a re-print of the PDFs out. Our new medium where we keep all this shit is horrible compared to Wave. I think I'm about to just type all this out on giant in the playground or something like that.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:51, Thu 17 Jan 2013.

I think I lost some original documents to Wave while I was in the military, didn't realize it was going down. I'm pretty sure Annabel has them somewhere should I have need of them though. Most of the stuff I had on my hard drive, I think all I lost was theory crafting and character personality stuff that has mostly changed with time anyways.

Damn you google wave, why did you have to leave me? Now who will I drink with so people don't call me an alcoholic for drinking by myself?

Whoops.

Knowledge (nobility/royalty) should be on the fighter class list (and by extension the paladin list).

Rules Question time!

If Sili sings Lullaby on a creature that's already asleep (but about to wake up) what happens? Does the most recent effect take precedence? Does it have no effect? I'm honestly not sure.

Sili's turn: If Sili can, he'll play a lullaby for #6 on his turn. If it won't have any effect until the creature wakes up, then he'll ready an action to act as soon as it wakes up. It'll wake up this round, and I don't want it to rejoin the fight.

Sili's skill bonus when playing Lullaby is +16, and his Charisma is +3. If you'd like to wait for me to get back on that's fine too.

The problem is that unconscious (sleeping) creatures are immune to sleep.

You can ready an action to make something fall back asleep after it wakes up, yes, but you must ready an action to do it. In this instance, it won't really affect you at all since you'll take your place just above its initiative, where you are anyway.

Please post your action for this round. The car is running and I'm getting ready to step out of the door for the day.

In reference to the OOC thread, there's a gap in black mage 7th and white mage 14th.

I am going to propose this for white mage 14th:



From The Brink (Su)
White wizards are able to pull their allies back from the edge of death in dire situations. Any time an ally would be dead through hit point damage (death effects and constitution drain/damage cannot be countered in this way) the white wizard has one round to be able to target their bodies with a spell from the Healing school to bring them above -10 hit points. If they do so, their ally is counted as having not died.

No matter how much above -1 hit points the white wizard would have healed their ally, their target cannot exceed -1 hit points and are unconscious but stable until further healing is received from some other source. The targeted body must be relatively in tact for From The Brink to function.



Yeah, Raise and Raise II are better options in some situations. Raise/Raise II are 1 Round casting times, though, which means it can take forever to use them. The white wizard themselves might be disabled before they take effect, or a second party member could get trashed in that time--not to mention that you can't take a move action to reposition yourself before starting to cast them (assuming you want to cast another spell on your next turn).

From the Brink also allows you to hit a group of allies with Heal (or Heal II, etc...) in order to heal everyone still alive as well as save the life of a comrade. It's all about action economy.

If you have a knight or a red mage in the party, which is likely, then they can bop the guy that's down with a Cure on their turn and they're back in the fight before Raise would have normally taken effect. Hell, even a master walking around with a potion of Cure in their hand (which is actually pretty likely) can take a 5' step and jam it down their ally's throat.


Arise comes three levels after this, and is a very strong spell that could replace much of the usefulness of this ability. But Arise costs a good bit of MP, and with From the Brink you have the option of healing your whole team as well as saving a guy.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:35, Mon 11 Mar 2013.

This would be hard to say anything on without play testing. I wouldn't mind you giving us each 1 character around those levels and putting us in a situation where we had to do something like this to see how it played out.

My first thought after reading this was treat them as disabled for 1 round if they exceed -1 HP. So one move/standard action and take 1 damage if you use a standard. They are 99% of the time going to be prone so their turn would be wasted on standing up anyways, potentially incurring AoOs.

Like I said though, it might be worth play testing some specific instances of this to decide what the correct power level would be. We don't want to replace the life spells and their effects with a class ability, even if it has a 1 round window of opportunity.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:40, Mon 11 Mar 2013.

Treating them as disabled when they're not in HP range to be so is a little rules heavy I think. It might lead to confusion, and there are abilities/items/features/feats that specifically play into when someone is disabled or staggered that may complicate the situation.


Yeah, the target is unconscious and prone, but you could have just spent 1 MP to save their life with a Cure as opposed to 7 MP with a Raise. It has uses outside of combat, too. A thief could fail in disarming explosives, or a trap could go off, or you could be watching two other people in a fight, or whatever else.

As an extreme example of another out of combat use, having a group of 7 NPC children bystanders that get their shit rocked from a Stone II AoE could be saved with a Heal spell, where you would otherwise have to spend the time and resources to bring them all back to life. This is a harrowing experience for a person, especially a child, and some may not make it back.


Back to the party: remember, you have a little bit of meta knowledge, and unless the party really fucked up the situation in Provoka, you have anywhere from 2-10 Boarding Rings (the ones that let you know your allies condition) for encouraged, literal meta knowledge to know exactly how much healing is required to save your buddy's ass.

Raise takes effect at the start of your next turn, which would then let you cast another healing spell on your ally or whatever else. From The Brink would let you cast a heal now, to save them, then another heal on your next turn. In this sense, the action economy to bring them back to consciousness is exactly the same from the target's standpoint. The only differences is that Raise makes an ally come back in a standing position, because FF is weird that way.

Being prone can super, super suck in a lot of situations, this is true. For some players, though, it's not that big of a detriment. Warp is a way around this, for instance, for red and black wizards. There are items available to thieves/black belts that let you stand up from prone AoO free due to ranks in Tumble. I think only knights are really all that bad off from being prone, but they're the ones with the most defense anyway.


And in D&D there are a lot of situations that are rock, paper, 22 megaton nuclear bomb. One round of saving someone's life might well be enough for the black belt to punch the problem's head in or the red and black mage to blast the thing into bits.
This message was last edited by the GM at 06:07, Mon 11 Mar 2013.

In reply to teslas (msg # 177):

How about for BLM an ability that lets you cast a single spell when dropped below 0 HP at level 7?

The difference come when if you are able to bring them above -1 HP. What you have stated is they never rise above -1 HP even if the numbers say they do. What I'm proposing is that if you would theoretically bring them above -1 HP from a spell then it would bring them back as disabled, regardless of whether they were at 0 or 7 HP.

This is very difficult with a cure or heal spell, as people die at negative CON mod in this game (I think?) so it is very likely to heal only half of the negative HP, not to mention if someone is PK'd down to -30 HP. You'd then have to burn a DS Cure II or higher in order to get them back up, and they'd only have a partial action on their turn and be prone.

I think it merits some play testing as it is a complicated, but potentially interesting and useful feature.

The -CON for death instead of -10 is a house-rule for this particular instance of the game. It, along with the armor as damage reduction, are ones that I'm going to suggest to people who play, but neither is inherently part of it.

Other optional things we're using:

Leveling up restores you
Day's element affects magic
Enemies not provided soft cover by allies



I think the ability is not something that you anticipate for levels to come, but is useful in certain contexts. The point was not to give the white wizard some new super awesome toy that they didn't have before, it's just to give them something unique to further aid them in their specialized roll of saving the party's ass.

The idea of having them be disabled for one round is not an awful one. Initially, we had Raise/Raise II do a similar thing, akin to resurrection sickness in FFXI or many other MMO's. We decided against this, just barely. It may even make a return to keep the revolving door of death "tactic" way less viable.

Play testing may prove me wrong, but I foresee very little benefit in this ability. A heal could save you a few MP from a raise, but would never ever affect the flow of battle unless you had 2 white mages or a whm and a devoted rdm healer, perhaps in the rarest circumstance a knight.

If you aren't a WHM, your best option is always to defeat/debilitate the enemy, even through means of provoke. So you revive someone with negative HP. They are still a dead body as far as the battle is concerned. It would take another round of healing to awaken them, and then they would still be prone on that round. If someone is dying they are either retarded is shit is REAL BAD, in which case this ability would most likely be moot. I suppose it could help bad players or exceedingly unfortunate players, but the chances of that character dying immediately once again are pretty high.

The one circumstance I can see this being effective in is where a WHM blankets the party with Heal, raising the character that was just barely killed and using Divine Inspiration to attempt an enchantment to keep them protected from single target attacks. With even just Heal it would last two rounds, so this might actually be a decent tactic. Outside of this I see little tactical use, but I understand what you are going for with this class feature.

There are still holes in white and black mage. To you two people playing them: my apologies. This is my next goal on things to fix.

Was I drunk when I was bitching about the mechanics before? Cause that White Mage ability looks pretty sweet now...

Edit- 6 months ago and posted at 3AM, I guarantee I was.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:40, Tue 10 Sept 2013.

I agree. Not dying is awesome.

Take it from me.

Until you get Arise at 17th level, it's pretty fantastic. Even after you get it, it's great to use during times when you don't feel like paying out the ass to use Arise. It's also great to use with NPCs and the like, should that situation come up.

Also, not having the ally lose all of the buffs you may or may not have put on him is a huge time-saver--especially if it's a fight where one of the Bar-element spells is essentially a must-have.

As you very well know, levels start to come fairly slowly 13th -> 17th, so the time in between is likely actually a bit of a while.

I am strongly considering the following change, due to the decently large difference in power level between 6th and 7th level spells. It's a fairly noticeable departure from standard D&D, but I think it may be for the best.

1: It gives you something to look forward to at higher levels.
2: You still should be all happy about getting your prestige class at 11-13th levels that you don't mind as much.
3: You likely had to skip over a few spells you would have rather not had to skip up to this point. Another two slots to put something there may cut down on some buyer's remorse, subconscious or otherwise.
4: It is the same as sorcerer progression, which is what the mages essentially are beefed up versions of. As an added bonus, you don't suffer at early levels.


The only downside to this that I can see is that it does delay the rate at which you can apply metamagics, though it's not too awfully significant.


White and black mages gain Xth level spells at Yth level:

1st: 1st
2nd: 3rd
3rd: 5th
4th: 7th
5th: 9th
6th: 11th
7th: 14th
8th: 16th
9th: 18th

And just to compare with red mages in case you're curious:
1st: 1st
2nd: 4th
3rd: 7th
4th: 10th
5th: 13th
6th: 16th
(and they could potentially gain select 7th level spells at 18th if they took a bunch of Extra Spell and Red Wizard Paragon)



What do you guys think?
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:20, Wed 11 Sept 2013.

Seems fine, it technically gives you two less 9th level known spell slots but... hell, how many of those would one guy need anyways?

There are only four 9th level spells for both white and black mages, so that's not even a problem.

Huh... I must not have counted those before >.>

So yeah, further reason it looks okay.

I'm fine with it. There are still tons of lower level spells that I want and higher level spells are mo' money.

It is done.

Seems fine, though are you intending there to only ever be 4 9th level spells per class?

Not necessarily, but at the same time I don't have any ideas of what else there may be. Probably something the players find super-super late game that's like super-awesome (the 8th and 9th level spells already are (except Regrowth kinda, but that needs to exist, sorry white mages)).

It may be worth mentioning that you still get six 9th level slots, two at 18, 19, and 20.



As always, if you guys have any suggestions for new spells, let me know. They have to be iconic FF, vital to general gameplay, or very multi-purpose. A maybe-not-bad analogy is to think like you have to draw a whole picture in only 16 colors instead of 16 million (D&D 3.5). What colors/effects do you pick?