Questions and comments about how the game works goes here.

Do you not understand an ability? Good. We can write it better.
Do you feel something is weak or too strong? Let us know.
Have suggestions on wording to make it clearer? Share it.
Have suggestions on bland flavor text for spells? That too.

If you think it, and can back it up with anything more than "cuz," spit it out. This is what a play-test is for.

We'll probably be using this thread more and more as you guys progress.

I still think Red Mages should get Spellcraft as a class skill. While, granted, they have alot of skill points, making them spend double to get a cross-class skill isn't worth it. (Even with wasting a feat on Able Learner, I still think its not worth it.) I would even go as far as saying Sleight of Hand shouldn't be a class skill for Red Mages, even though I love the Sleight of Hand skill.

The reasons for Red Mages not getting Spellcraft:

Reason 1.
Red Mages aren't supposed to be masters of magic. They view magic as a means to an end. It is important to understand how to utilize magic as effectively as possible, not to understand its every nuance and articulation. Red Mages are so diverse in their skills that they lack detailed knowledge in any field. They cannot wear heavy armor. Their proficiency with martial weapons is severely limited. They do not gain the most powerful or unique spells of white and black magic. (Though you can take feats to excel in many of these areas, just as you can take feats to improve your Spellcraft).

Reason 2. Like you said, we gave Red Mages six skill points a level. This was so that they could have a huge variety of skills but never truly excel in any of them (except Charisma-based ones). They can spend some of these points into Spellcraft if they wish. If you look at their class skill list, it's quite an odd smattering. Most of it is very situationally useful skills (The exceptions are Diplomacy and Bluff, buf red mages are the Charisma masters).

Reason 3. We wanted to preserve White and Black mages (mostly black mages) as the masters of the technical magics of the world. Red Mages do not have Knowledge (arcana) either, not until they become Red Wizards to they gain other knowledges.

Point 4. Let's look at what Spellcraft does. I'll go through them in order.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

1: Glyph of warding: This doesn't really exist in this campaign.

2: Identifying a spell being cast
This one is pretty major. One of the biggest reasons to do this, though, is to counterspell. Red Mages have Dispel. They don't need to know what you're casting to counter it. Another major reason is to help protect yourself and allies against it. White Mages are much better at protecting their allies than Red Mages. A Red Mage's response to an enemy spell caster is to maim or disable them.

3&4: Learning spells in this game does not require Spellcraft.

5: Detecting what kind of magic an item is putting off is useful, but again, a Red Mage can still tell that it IS magical, and then Identify it. This isn't a super-huge restriction, and goes back to the usefulness of having a White or Black Mage in the party.

6: Same as #1, identifying a magic symbol will be rare.

7: Identifying an active spell is neat. But you know what? You can Dispel it whether or not you know how it works. Problem solved.

8: While identifying magically altered items or environment is situationally useful, it happens rarely. Moreover, in this campaign, it will not be as common as vanilla D&D. You can tell it's magical, and guess what, if you don't like it? That's right. Dispel.

9: Same as #1. Scrolls do exist, yes, but a Red Mage does not need them. Red Mages can already use almost all of the wands in the game, and the ones that they can't they can have tons of Use Magic Device.

10: Identifying a spell that was cast upon you after a saving throw is nice. I don't have a lot of argument for this one. What might help is that Red Mages have pretty good all-around saves and special resistance to enhancing magic.

11: Identifying potions is not what Red Mages are about.

12: Similar to #1. Dimensional Anchor isn't a player usable spell.

13: Identifying unique magic effects. The save DC is so high for this one that even a mid or high-level Red Mage with Spellcraft as a class skill would have trouble hitting this. This is the realm of the Black Mage.


So there you have it.

tl;dr
Red Mages are not specialists in any one aspect of their class, including Spellcraft. It is to preserve White and Black Mages as the true magical masters. Red Mages already freakin' rock.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:37, Wed 02 Feb 2011.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

Haley would make a good red mage :)

I agree that spellcraft seems a bit less important, but will this game support epic play? If so, red mages might get a bit gimped at the end there.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:29, Wed 02 Feb 2011.

I have thought about that. The game won't support epic play in the classic sense.

The campaign was designed to be played 1 through the mid-high teens (in of itself a VERY long campaign). It might be the case that the game will progress to the low 20's, but you'll only gain more of the same. Skill points, Hit Points, Mana Points, Spell Slots, Feats/Ability Scores, and BAB. Games such as this would involve doing a ton of side quests and fighting very challenging encounters for increased XP gain.

If it's meant t be FF, and was designed to play into high teens...wouldn't stopping at 20 kinda be the FF way?

Like FF7 can be beaten around level 55-60ish(with good setup), but I personally have never played through without maxing everyone at 99...not even trying particularly, it just happens while mastering materia or exploiring

20 sounds like a fair deal.  It's hard to make things worthwhile and awesome when you sneeze and change the orbit of the planet (epics) on a regular basis.

In regards to the predicted max level:

I've got no clue. We'll find out in our other play-test first, of course. I expect this group to level up less quickly, and hitting level 10, let alone 20, should take a while. I do like the idea of the mages getting to play with AT LEAST level 8 spells before the completion of the main storyline in almost all situations.


In regards to Spellcraft:

I'll bring it up again with the other creator the next time we speak. If you could propose any argument I would be happy to play devil's advocate and suggest the same to him to see what he thinks.


In other news:

We're probably going to give White Mages a new toy (albeit a small one) of a class feature. More on this when we get it ironed out.

I've been thinking about the Black Belt's Stance feature as a whole. I'll wait until I see JACK's in action levels 1-4 before making any updates most likely.
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:15, Thu 03 Feb 2011.

The only argument I can make on Spellcraft is that, imo, Red Mages aren't randomly feeling out magic. Red Mages are.. like Bards in D&D as a comparison. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I know my response, and I anticipate his will be the same: They aren't only "feeling it out" so much as only practicing the applicable and immediately beneficial aspects of magic. They control magic not through sheer intelligence and mental agility and control, nor through deep, thoughtful understanding and coaxing of the world around them, but through their own personal focus and willpower.

"Jack of all trades, master of none."
This is what, but to a different degree on the other end of the spectrum, I think he'll say about it exactly.

Umm...just noticed something on the tent, it says recover 2 MP/level along with HP...but MP being the spells/day wouldn't they already fill up for resing?

Hahahaha. No.

MP only comes back when resting in an inn, something considered as an inn, or when using a tent, cabin, or cottage.

There's also Ethers (aka Crack), but they are sorta rare and cannot be bought in Cornelia.

Can't sleep.

This seems unclear.



1 - Cure (1d8 +1/CL up to 5), does healing mastery stack with this cap? (with no other variables 1d8 +6 at caster level 5?)

2 - There are a few spells in the [Healing] spell school that aren't cures.  I doubt this was meant to affect them but it seems vague.

examples: Basuna/ra, Esuna, Life1-3, Regrowth, Restore1-2

1- Yes, it stacks. At level 20 your Cure spell will restore 1d8+9 hit points, making it absurdly efficient.

2- This affects basically only the Cure and Heal line of spells. We left the wording open to automatically incorporate any other spells that may have been created or added.

Now that you mention it, it should function with Life II if that spell is of the Healing school. I'll take a look at this.

edit-
I wouldn't mind Healing Mastery working with Life II if it weren't for the fact that Life II would fully restore low hit point creatures and characters back to life with full HP. This might be alright, as Arise is still a much better spell (Standard instead of 1 Round cast time, full HP for whoever, even that monk with 250+ hit points.)

The other creator and I will discuss this. Thanks for bringing it up.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:46, Fri 18 Feb 2011.

One of the major reasons for the spell is to help out the Black Mage's weaknesses. Balance? Earth. Jump? Wind. Swim? Water. Normally a lot of those circumstances are auto-death situations. This spell alleviates that.

The main point of the ice, apart from the slight damage absorbtion, is to escape grapples. You think the HP isn't good, but keep in mind it is an immediate action to cast. Later when you have more MP and the effects increase you can cast it right before the BBEG hits you, potentially saving your life. Our Black Mage at level 7 has used it once already to save his life.

Many things you fight will not have another way of sight other than non-visual senses. Some, few, have both. And as you said, you can Blind them. You can Fire Sheath and Blind in the same round. What's the problem there?

The difference between Wind and Earth is intentional. Wind gives you touch AC while earth is more for big physical hitters. The little extra DR is to make up for the fact that you're not wearing any armor (usually) since it does not stack with other sources of DR (except Phalanx).

Water Sheath can be good for a lot of out-of-combat situations, yes. You could potentially go scout out something by swimming underwater or whatever. The fact that you have to do it alone is intentional. That 8-armed water creature that finds a lone black mage deep down near its home is a lucky monster. Yummy.

The wind one giving you feather-fall is incredibly, incredibly useful.

I personally think the spell is still WAY too versatile. The fact that some aspects seem "weak" is because the spell is capable of doing six different things. It's stronger than even most vanilla D&D spells.

Tes: Any reason why Cure is a d8, but Cure 2-4 are d10s? Progression seems off.

I was assuming because Cure is 1 MP, where as Cure 2 is 5 MP.

Assume a level 5 whm and a level 10 whm (+1/2 healing mastery so cures get +6 and +12).

Level 5 whm
Cure - 1d8+6 for 1 MP (average 10/11)
Cure 2 - 2d10+8 for 5 MP (average 19)

Level 10 whm
Cure - 1d8+7 for 1 MP (average 11/12)
Cure 2 - 2d10+16 for 5 MP (average 27)
Cure 3 - 3d10+22 for 9 MP (average 39/40)

These are slightly less (and different levels) for rdm.

I assumed it was to nerf the out of combat cure really cheaply for 1 MP (which is still way WAY more effective).
This message was last edited by the player at 00:28, Sat 19 Feb 2011.

As ZEIG stated, it's to reduce Cure's insane efficiency.

It already is the most efficient way to heal someone outside of combat (apart from a Red Mage's Regen at most levels).

Cure II and on up are supposed to be used in combat to save your friends' asses, and it costs a pretty amount of MP to do it.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:59, Fri 18 Feb 2011.

Efficient, yes but...the whole point is in battle you want larger heals in shorter times...

For instance, even in Viladin's FFd20 system Regen is the most efficient way of healing someone, but takes multiple rounds, useful as a pre-heal, or right after minor wound if expected to take a little damage each round, but if something is taking half yer health down in one round? suddenly efficiency is less imporant, and speed becomes more.

Yeah, that's why you have Cure II and higher, not to mention Divine Seal or Fast Cast to let out more healing in one round.

2d10 + CL(10) is fairly respectable, and White Mages get 2d10 + 3 + CL(10) for Cure II's out of the gate. At level 7 their Cure II's are doing 2d10 + 13. Slap a Divine Seal on that and you're restoring, on average, 36 hit points.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:24, Sat 19 Feb 2011.

Btw, I know the reason for Weapon Finesse, but I would like to contest for an alternate feat, or at least a choice of feats (similar to Monks upon 2nd level). Weapon Finesse will continue to be a dead feat for me.

The entire reason Red Mages were given Weapon Finesse for free was to reduce their MAD (multi-attribute-dependency). It gives players the choice, if they wish, to focus on STR as a melee stat (usually with Longsword) or Dexterity as a melee stat (usually with Rapiers).

One of course does more damage, while the other has slightly higher AC and initiative. This mechanic works out to be exactly what you think it should be. I stronger, larger hitter or a more agile one.

Yes, high-STR builds can use Rapiers just as effectively (in fact more so), but the loss to ranged touch attacks for spells, initiative, reflex saves, and AC more than makes up for the balance point.

In conclusion, it was meant as a way to simply add an option for players to use if they wished. I can't think of any other suitable substitution feat off of the top of my head that would fit the same type of original purpose. Much in the same way, ALL Black Belts gain Combat Reflexes to reflect their extensive martial training. They do not get a choice in the matter.

If you have any suggestions or input, please share them/it.

Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus?