Rules Questions.   Posted by Kevlyn.Group: 0
LonePaladin
 player, 4 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 04:33
Re: Rules Questions
This question's edition-agnostic.

It's a classic staple in comic books and superhero movies -- the BBEG fires his Apocalypse Beam, and the hero counters with his best Energy Ray. The two beams collide, usually creating a burst of power at their intersection, and hero and villain struggle to pour more power into their end and overpower the other.

This usually winds up looking like a reverse tug-of-war, until one of them either runs out of stamina or makes a last desperate push that knocks the other away.

And for the life of me, I have no idea how to emulate this in the Hero System.
lensman
 player, 25 posts
 HEROphile since 81
 -8 GMT Crestline CA
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 04:48
Re: Rules Questions
I would start with a BODY generation.  The more BODY, the beam advances, now that may be too dynamic, so you could just use DC, the more DC, the beam advances, so the more you push or increase the power to the beam, the more it advances.

You could start with a Haymaker, and the END spends like crazy, then go to Push, where EGO just determines increase in DC, so higher EGO means more DC.

Then an EGO situation can be influenced by Psychs, appropriate psychs can add their value in DC.

Lastly maybe a Power skill to control and limit END or EGO roll to overcome Psychs that limit powers, like CVK.

Lastly, you an start applying extra limits to gain power.  ALl of a sudden, COncentration, extra time might gain some DC and push back.
soulsight
 GM, 27 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 05:51
Re: Rules Questions
At first, it sounds like a series of blocks/counter strikes with blasts instead of fists/weapons. If it were resolved in that fashion, the scenario could be described as you suggest by embellishing on the special effects.
Alternatively, perhaps the hero/villain (whichever makes sense) could be considered as using Suppress with the same real points as his blast, but with active points as high as could be managed with scenario appropriate limitations. As long as it outdoes the attacker's ray, nothing happens, as soon as one or the other mis-steps (out of endurance, fails a to hit roll, fails to roll Suppress high enough, fails an EGO roll, etc), the 'reverse tug of war' is resolved as appropriate.
LonePaladin
 player, 5 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 17:26
Re: Rules Questions
Found one. Turns out there's a write-up for this exact scenario in the 5E Ninja Hero book. (I asked in a Facebook group, and the book's author pointed me to it.) It's in the section on variants of Missile Deflection, in a sub-heading called "Contests of Power". (Ninja Hero, p. 58)
DBCowboy
 player, 6 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 17:49
Re: Rules Questions
Can you describe their approach?  Deflect doesn't cost much END and when I picture this it's more brute power than finness.
LonePaladin
 player, 6 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 23:14
Re: Rules Questions
It turns out it's copied, verbatim, in the 6E Advanced Players Guide. Here's a rough summary.

First, a Contest of Power is an Abort defensive action, and requires you to have a sustainable attack that's thematically similar (or diametrically opposite) to the first attack. Two types of energy, light vs. dark, fire vs. ice, etc. It doesn't have to be Continuous, but it can't have Charges or a physical form like bullets. It can include things like Blast, Ranged Killing Attack, or even Mental Blast or Telekinesis.

The defender has to be able to act on that same Phase (but on a lower DEX) and choose to Abort to a Contest of Power. Both of them make attack rolls, and the contest only happens if both attacks hit. Their impact point is exactly midway between them.

They roll damage, comparing BODY. The winner -- the one with a higher BODY roll -- moves the impact point 1 hex/2m per point difference. If the impact point reaches one of them, that character takes a full hit from the other attack.

Characters roll on any Phase in which they both act; in other Phases the active character can automatically push the impact point 1 hex/2m without rolling.
DBCowboy
 player, 7 posts
Wed 7 Feb 2018
at 01:17
Re: Rules Questions
Oooh, I was wondering how SPD differences came into play.  So it sounds like Contest of Power is a Maneuver, correct?  That would mean other Maneuvers like Haymaker would be off the table for either combatant.  However they could still choose to Push if GM approves.
LonePaladin
 player, 7 posts
Wed 7 Feb 2018
at 05:40
Re: Rules Questions
Yep. And if someone has locked themselves into such a contest, and wants out, they have to either take the hit or Dive for Cover.
Claire Redfield
 player, 11 posts
Thu 8 Feb 2018
at 10:03
Re: Rules Questions
I remember that rule, from when I wanted to use HERO to run a Dragon Ball game.

Question: any good alternatives to using the SPD chart? Especially when it comes to figuring out real-world (or, rather, non-game-descriptive) movement speeds? It's one big issue I still struggle with as far as HERO. In M&M, say, my Speed rank of 11 lets me move 4000 MPH, or 8 miles in a single round. The game gives me this in a nice, easy-to-figure low number (which I can use if need be as a modifier to a die roll). Compare to HERO, where I have to figure out how many times I can move per round, convert meters/move to something else, etc.

I mean, does that make sense? I've been wanting to revisit HERO lately, and I think most of what trips me up with it, especially since most of my gaming is online, has to do with combat. SPD chart is a big one. Most everything else seems pretty front-loaded, which I can deal with.
LonePaladin
 player, 8 posts
Thu 8 Feb 2018
at 13:26
Re: Rules Questions
Well, your SPD stat represents how many times you can act in a 12-second Turn. So it has to be divided up -- if one person has a 3, and the other has a 5, when does the latter get his extra two turns? The Speed Chart is simply a way to spread out everyone's turns so that each character is acting at regular intervals.

I think there's an alternative in one of the Advanced Players Guides, I'll take a look.

And the thing for calculating movement is a bit more complicated, because Hero doesn't use abstractions. Instead of just using a single number for the whole thing, it's specific -- rather than "rank 11", you have an exact distance (40m) and interval (your SPD).

Here's the math, with an example.
Take your movement distance (say, Flight 40m), multiply it by your SPD (say, 5). The result (200m) is how far you go in a 12-second Turn.
Multiply that by 5 (1000m) for how far you go in a minute.
Multiply that by 60 (60,000m = 60km) for your speed in KPH.
soulsight
 GM, 28 posts
Fri 9 Feb 2018
at 03:24
Re: Rules Questions
There's actually an easy fix for that, define SPD so it is no longer an issue. Make a house rule that SPD is 4, except where a character desires SPD to be a main part of their power meta (perhaps with a limitation on permitted actions). The exception characters can be allowed to buy SPD of either 8 or 12 (having either two or three phases for each of the slower character's phases). For SPD 4 characters, movement distance times 1.2 gives KPH (movement distance times 3/4 gives rough mph).
If you try this, let me know how well it works. I keep considering it and back-pedaling as soon as I consider how I would act as a player. [begin mock outrage]"What! I don't get to control what SPD my character has! THE GM IS A FASCIST!"[/end mock outrage]
Claire Redfield
 player, 12 posts
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 03:56
Re: Rules Questions
LonePaladin:
Well, your SPD stat represents how many times you can act in a 12-second Turn. So it has to be divided up -- if one person has a 3, and the other has a 5, when does the latter get his extra two turns? The Speed Chart is simply a way to spread out everyone's turns so that each character is acting at regular intervals.


I know, but I'd rather actually eliminate the idea of one player getting more actions entirely. It becomes a "fun tax," that you have to pay or else you get left behind. The same way Extra Actions becomes a tax in BESM 3rd, for instance. I've never liked the mechanic at all.

I can't think of a necessity for it, either. Speedsters can be represented with all kinds of other things: AoE effects for super-speed attacks or environmental tricks, quickness at accomplishing mundane tasks for those that can operate their whole bodies at super-speed, high movement, defensive powers, and so on. None of anything that they do like that requires extra full actions.

LonePaladin:
I think there's an alternative in one of the Advanced Players Guides, I'll take a look.


I'll look, too, but if you find something helpful, I'd be very happy to know about it.
I have a couple games coming up where I'd like to use HERO, but these particular issues make the idea of running it far more daunting.

LonePaladin:
And the thing for calculating movement is a bit more complicated, because Hero doesn't use abstractions. Instead of just using a single number for the whole thing, it's specific -- rather than "rank 11", you have an exact distance (40m) and interval (your SPD).

Here's the math, with an example.
Take your movement distance (say, Flight 40m), multiply it by your SPD (say, 5). The result (200m) is how far you go in a 12-second Turn.
Multiply that by 5 (1000m) for how far you go in a minute.
Multiply that by 60 (60,000m = 60km) for your speed in KPH.


This is another reason I'd like to get rid of SPD and make this a bit simpler. More and more I realize that I don't need or want that much specificity in movement, or ranges in general. An optional rule for HERO that made use of range bands and simplified movement would be amazing, I can tell ya that. Do any such things exist?
Caranamon
 player, 17 posts
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 10:56
Re: Rules Questions
In reply to soulsight (msg # 15):

First: I do love the Hero System! It can be used to play nearly every setting.
But it is not the best one to be used in pbem games.

If you want to use it, but with less book-keeping, you can take a look into FUZION. It is based on the hero system. But the 12 second round is split into 4 Phases, each one 3 seconds long. Within a Phase the highest REFlexes (or DEX if sticking to Hero) tells who acts first. And movement is in meters, based on the MOVE characteristic.
Barrier
 player, 4 posts
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 14:04
Re: Rules Questions
In reply to Caranamon (msg # 17):

The basic Fuzion rules are still available as a free download at the R. Talsorian games website.
Claire Redfield
 player, 13 posts
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 00:54
Re: Rules Questions
Anyone have some more thoughts on what I said above, by chance?
DBCowboy
 player, 11 posts
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 04:44
Re: Rules Questions
Did anyone find any alternatives in the published books?

I think you could totally define your own range bands similar to M&Ms with appropriate mods.

I think you could do the same with movement as well.  Maybe buy movement in increments of 10 points and define how much that provides for each type (Running, Flight, Leaping, etc....)

The no SPD or even limited SPD becomes complicated in my mind as it seems to impact many different things, not the least of which is tracking END expenditure.  Potentially you could drop the need for both END and REC.  There might also be an impact on adjustment powers and Flashes.

As long an players aren't worried about taking advantage of any inconsistencies that may result from these kinds of changes it could be a nice, simplified alternative.  Maybe a good intro for new players.

You could probably test this pretty quickly and see if any obvious problems crop up.
Claire Redfield
 player, 14 posts
Fri 2 Mar 2018
at 07:03
Re: Rules Questions
I definitely would like to keep END and stuff. You'd still spend it on all the normal things. Maybe REC is after every participant has had a turn, or...? Hm.

Also, M&M doesn't have range bands like I'd like, but I'd wonder how it would work with HERO's system of modifiers. Too much recosting, maybe?
Caranamon
 player, 18 posts
Sat 3 Mar 2018
at 08:14
Re: Rules Questions
In reply to Claire Redfield (msg # 21):

I think that would work like "megascale". Just with a smaller scale.

@DBCowboy:  Take a look at FUZION. It is based on Hero and mostly compatible (the Option points there have the same value as Hero's character points). You can take the simplified structure of a "Round" from FUZION without having to worry about changing the rest of the Hero rules.
Claire Redfield
 player, 15 posts
Tue 6 Mar 2018
at 09:09
Re: Rules Questions
I'd be curious to know if anyone found anything in any of the books, too. Movement simplification or at least some alternatives to the SPD chart would be quite useful. I'd love to test those things out with a good Aliens vs. Predator game, for instance.
soulsight
 player, 33 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 03:44
Re: Rules Questions
Have a, sort of, question about senses. Assume a character has a follower that has been defined as a robotic dog. Both the character and the follower have HRRP, the two are in different locations and the follower has a Mind Link (defined as a form of radio) to his "master".
Is there any reason to suggest the character CAN'T listen and speak through the follower? What would you require, in a game you GM, to allow a character to listen and speak through a follower?
lensman
 GM, 33 posts
 HEROphile since 81
 -8 GMT Crestline CA
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 04:33
Re: Rules Questions
There are at least three answers I can think of.

First, in the spirit of the genre where there is a robot K9 for a Follower, yes, HRRH has broadcast and that can just be channeled through to a broadcast vox synth.

To hit exactly the K9 may need the Mimic skill

Lastly the k9 may need Images to have a way to project audio, using the Images modifier as a positive to other's PER of the Audio.

The last is really the technocratic answer.

EDIT: Two ideas that I thought of to add.

As a Robot/AI/Computer, just a program to perform the function. Cost 1 pt.

Second, unless the K9 has Mute, it can talk/speak normally.

This message was last edited by the GM at 06:02, Sun 29 Sept.

JRScott
 player, 13 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 04:51
Re: Rules Questions
Keep in mind HRRP has a range just like all other powers. It's something we overlook often in the game, but if they were sufficiently far away then they would be out of range, unless they bought megascale or something.....

Assuming the two radio's are within range of one another then yes you could probably do what he wants, subject to range penalties.

lensman has some good ideas on other aspects.
Cody Reimers
 player, 4 posts
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 09:33
Re: Rules Questions
So I decided to read through the whole rulebook instead of just looking at whatever I need at the moment (I'd done this before for 5E but not 6E) and I had a thought reading the entry for Penalty Skill Levels. On Page 84 of 6E1, left side middle of the page, it says:

"A character cannot use OPSLs to increase OCV generally... Nor can he buy OPSLs to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By)..."

And that all makes sense. But here's the question: can you use PSLs to counteract halving/zeroing of your CVs? Like you can't use OPSLs to counteract the -3 OCV of Grab By, but once you have successfully grabbed the target, that penalty goes away, but if the target is a character, you gain a 1/2 OCV penalty for having an active grab on a character against all other characters. Can you buy OPSLs to counter that effect? I have my own intuitions about what's the right interpretation but I want to see if there are any interesting arguements from the community that might make me reconsider.
lensman
 GM, 34 posts
 HEROphile since 81
 -8 GMT Crestline CA
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 18:18
Re: Rules Questions
HERO 6th ed., Vol 1, 84 pg.:
Penalty Skill Levels (PSLs) are a type of Skill
Level that only reduce or counteract a specific
type of combat-related penalty. They come in two
varieties, Offensive and Defensive.


The answer always is: not direct combat penalties.

As any effect on OCV from the Grab is a direct combat related OCV penalty, OPSL do not apply.

You know it is a direct combat penalty when it is described wiithin the maneuver itself.

This message was last edited by the GM at 18:21, Mon 14 Oct.

soulsight
 player, 35 posts
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 18:46
Re: Rules Questions
My personal take is PSL's should never be used where CSL's can apply. If you want to counteract the 'modifier' listed on a combat maneuver, purchase CSL's with the maneuver. They're more versatile, anyway.
It takes twice as many to counteract the 'halving' thing, but they'll still work.
Nothing saves you from being zeroed. Everybody knows that.