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Rules Questions.

Posted by KevlynFor group 0
Kevlyn
GM, 6 posts
Sun 27 Feb 2011
at 04:38
  • msg #1

Rules Questions

Have questions about how the rules work, ask 'em here!
Caranamon
player, 4 posts
Tue 2 Aug 2011
at 06:16
  • msg #2

Re: Rules Questions

I do have a rules-question! :)
I thought "ha, perfect system. No open questions..." But as it always is, there IS a question.

How do you make an attack "homing"?
Maybe even able to control the attack over several phases/segments and it taking effect only once when it hits a target (be it the intendet one, or something due to a missed attack roll).

Oh, forgot to mention: I am talking about 5th edition.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:17, Tue 02 Aug 2011.
Gnome_de_Plume
player, 2 posts
Tue 2 Aug 2011
at 17:07
  • msg #3

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to Caranamon (msg #2):

How do you define 'homing'?

Most attacks in Hero System don't take any time to hit, so there is no need to 'follow' the target, no use for 'fire and forget'.

If you mean you want an attack that can go around corners, Indirect would be your adder.

If you want to build an attack which takes time to reach the target, how about Summoning?

For other options, I'm pretty sure this must have been discussed on the Hero Boards at some point in the past. Good luck :)
Caranamon
player, 5 posts
Tue 2 Aug 2011
at 19:00
  • msg #4

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to Gnome_de_Plume (msg #3):

I thought about SUMMONING too, creating a "being" that can follow a target and works as attack.
Indirect is fine. But I meant an attack that can be controlled after a missed attack to try again. That only "goes off" when dismissed or it hits a target (or something else).
LonePaladin
player, 4 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 04:33
  • msg #5

Re: Rules Questions

This question's edition-agnostic.

It's a classic staple in comic books and superhero movies -- the BBEG fires his Apocalypse Beam, and the hero counters with his best Energy Ray. The two beams collide, usually creating a burst of power at their intersection, and hero and villain struggle to pour more power into their end and overpower the other.

This usually winds up looking like a reverse tug-of-war, until one of them either runs out of stamina or makes a last desperate push that knocks the other away.

And for the life of me, I have no idea how to emulate this in the Hero System.
lensman
player, 25 posts
HEROphile since 81
-8 GMT Crestline CA
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 04:48
  • msg #6

Re: Rules Questions

I would start with a BODY generation.  The more BODY, the beam advances, now that may be too dynamic, so you could just use DC, the more DC, the beam advances, so the more you push or increase the power to the beam, the more it advances.

You could start with a Haymaker, and the END spends like crazy, then go to Push, where EGO just determines increase in DC, so higher EGO means more DC.

Then an EGO situation can be influenced by Psychs, appropriate psychs can add their value in DC.

Lastly maybe a Power skill to control and limit END or EGO roll to overcome Psychs that limit powers, like CVK.

Lastly, you an start applying extra limits to gain power.  ALl of a sudden, COncentration, extra time might gain some DC and push back.
soulsight
GM, 27 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 05:51
  • msg #7

Re: Rules Questions

At first, it sounds like a series of blocks/counter strikes with blasts instead of fists/weapons. If it were resolved in that fashion, the scenario could be described as you suggest by embellishing on the special effects.
Alternatively, perhaps the hero/villain (whichever makes sense) could be considered as using Suppress with the same real points as his blast, but with active points as high as could be managed with scenario appropriate limitations. As long as it outdoes the attacker's ray, nothing happens, as soon as one or the other mis-steps (out of endurance, fails a to hit roll, fails to roll Suppress high enough, fails an EGO roll, etc), the 'reverse tug of war' is resolved as appropriate.
LonePaladin
player, 5 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 17:26
  • msg #8

Re: Rules Questions

Found one. Turns out there's a write-up for this exact scenario in the 5E Ninja Hero book. (I asked in a Facebook group, and the book's author pointed me to it.) It's in the section on variants of Missile Deflection, in a sub-heading called "Contests of Power". (Ninja Hero, p. 58)
DBCowboy
player, 6 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 17:49
  • msg #9

Re: Rules Questions

Can you describe their approach?  Deflect doesn't cost much END and when I picture this it's more brute power than finness.
LonePaladin
player, 6 posts
Tue 6 Feb 2018
at 23:14
  • msg #10

Re: Rules Questions

It turns out it's copied, verbatim, in the 6E Advanced Players Guide. Here's a rough summary.

First, a Contest of Power is an Abort defensive action, and requires you to have a sustainable attack that's thematically similar (or diametrically opposite) to the first attack. Two types of energy, light vs. dark, fire vs. ice, etc. It doesn't have to be Continuous, but it can't have Charges or a physical form like bullets. It can include things like Blast, Ranged Killing Attack, or even Mental Blast or Telekinesis.

The defender has to be able to act on that same Phase (but on a lower DEX) and choose to Abort to a Contest of Power. Both of them make attack rolls, and the contest only happens if both attacks hit. Their impact point is exactly midway between them.

They roll damage, comparing BODY. The winner -- the one with a higher BODY roll -- moves the impact point 1 hex/2m per point difference. If the impact point reaches one of them, that character takes a full hit from the other attack.

Characters roll on any Phase in which they both act; in other Phases the active character can automatically push the impact point 1 hex/2m without rolling.
DBCowboy
player, 7 posts
Wed 7 Feb 2018
at 01:17
  • msg #11

Re: Rules Questions

Oooh, I was wondering how SPD differences came into play.  So it sounds like Contest of Power is a Maneuver, correct?  That would mean other Maneuvers like Haymaker would be off the table for either combatant.  However they could still choose to Push if GM approves.
LonePaladin
player, 7 posts
Wed 7 Feb 2018
at 05:40
  • msg #12

Re: Rules Questions

Yep. And if someone has locked themselves into such a contest, and wants out, they have to either take the hit or Dive for Cover.
Claire Redfield
player, 11 posts
Thu 8 Feb 2018
at 10:03
  • msg #13

Re: Rules Questions

I remember that rule, from when I wanted to use HERO to run a Dragon Ball game.

Question: any good alternatives to using the SPD chart? Especially when it comes to figuring out real-world (or, rather, non-game-descriptive) movement speeds? It's one big issue I still struggle with as far as HERO. In M&M, say, my Speed rank of 11 lets me move 4000 MPH, or 8 miles in a single round. The game gives me this in a nice, easy-to-figure low number (which I can use if need be as a modifier to a die roll). Compare to HERO, where I have to figure out how many times I can move per round, convert meters/move to something else, etc.

I mean, does that make sense? I've been wanting to revisit HERO lately, and I think most of what trips me up with it, especially since most of my gaming is online, has to do with combat. SPD chart is a big one. Most everything else seems pretty front-loaded, which I can deal with.
LonePaladin
player, 8 posts
Thu 8 Feb 2018
at 13:26
  • msg #14

Re: Rules Questions

Well, your SPD stat represents how many times you can act in a 12-second Turn. So it has to be divided up -- if one person has a 3, and the other has a 5, when does the latter get his extra two turns? The Speed Chart is simply a way to spread out everyone's turns so that each character is acting at regular intervals.

I think there's an alternative in one of the Advanced Players Guides, I'll take a look.

And the thing for calculating movement is a bit more complicated, because Hero doesn't use abstractions. Instead of just using a single number for the whole thing, it's specific -- rather than "rank 11", you have an exact distance (40m) and interval (your SPD).

Here's the math, with an example.
Take your movement distance (say, Flight 40m), multiply it by your SPD (say, 5). The result (200m) is how far you go in a 12-second Turn.
Multiply that by 5 (1000m) for how far you go in a minute.
Multiply that by 60 (60,000m = 60km) for your speed in KPH.
soulsight
GM, 28 posts
Fri 9 Feb 2018
at 03:24
  • msg #15

Re: Rules Questions

There's actually an easy fix for that, define SPD so it is no longer an issue. Make a house rule that SPD is 4, except where a character desires SPD to be a main part of their power meta (perhaps with a limitation on permitted actions). The exception characters can be allowed to buy SPD of either 8 or 12 (having either two or three phases for each of the slower character's phases). For SPD 4 characters, movement distance times 1.2 gives KPH (movement distance times 3/4 gives rough mph).
If you try this, let me know how well it works. I keep considering it and back-pedaling as soon as I consider how I would act as a player. [begin mock outrage]"What! I don't get to control what SPD my character has! THE GM IS A FASCIST!"[/end mock outrage]
Claire Redfield
player, 12 posts
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 03:56
  • msg #16

Re: Rules Questions

LonePaladin:
Well, your SPD stat represents how many times you can act in a 12-second Turn. So it has to be divided up -- if one person has a 3, and the other has a 5, when does the latter get his extra two turns? The Speed Chart is simply a way to spread out everyone's turns so that each character is acting at regular intervals.


I know, but I'd rather actually eliminate the idea of one player getting more actions entirely. It becomes a "fun tax," that you have to pay or else you get left behind. The same way Extra Actions becomes a tax in BESM 3rd, for instance. I've never liked the mechanic at all.

I can't think of a necessity for it, either. Speedsters can be represented with all kinds of other things: AoE effects for super-speed attacks or environmental tricks, quickness at accomplishing mundane tasks for those that can operate their whole bodies at super-speed, high movement, defensive powers, and so on. None of anything that they do like that requires extra full actions.

LonePaladin:
I think there's an alternative in one of the Advanced Players Guides, I'll take a look.


I'll look, too, but if you find something helpful, I'd be very happy to know about it.
I have a couple games coming up where I'd like to use HERO, but these particular issues make the idea of running it far more daunting.

LonePaladin:
And the thing for calculating movement is a bit more complicated, because Hero doesn't use abstractions. Instead of just using a single number for the whole thing, it's specific -- rather than "rank 11", you have an exact distance (40m) and interval (your SPD).

Here's the math, with an example.
Take your movement distance (say, Flight 40m), multiply it by your SPD (say, 5). The result (200m) is how far you go in a 12-second Turn.
Multiply that by 5 (1000m) for how far you go in a minute.
Multiply that by 60 (60,000m = 60km) for your speed in KPH.


This is another reason I'd like to get rid of SPD and make this a bit simpler. More and more I realize that I don't need or want that much specificity in movement, or ranges in general. An optional rule for HERO that made use of range bands and simplified movement would be amazing, I can tell ya that. Do any such things exist?
Caranamon
player, 17 posts
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 10:56
  • msg #17

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to soulsight (msg # 15):

First: I do love the Hero System! It can be used to play nearly every setting.
But it is not the best one to be used in pbem games.

If you want to use it, but with less book-keeping, you can take a look into FUZION. It is based on the hero system. But the 12 second round is split into 4 Phases, each one 3 seconds long. Within a Phase the highest REFlexes (or DEX if sticking to Hero) tells who acts first. And movement is in meters, based on the MOVE characteristic.
Barrier
player, 4 posts
Tue 13 Feb 2018
at 14:04
  • msg #18

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to Caranamon (msg # 17):

The basic Fuzion rules are still available as a free download at the R. Talsorian games website.
Claire Redfield
player, 13 posts
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 00:54
  • msg #19

Re: Rules Questions

Anyone have some more thoughts on what I said above, by chance?
DBCowboy
player, 11 posts
Wed 28 Feb 2018
at 04:44
  • msg #20

Re: Rules Questions

Did anyone find any alternatives in the published books?

I think you could totally define your own range bands similar to M&Ms with appropriate mods.

I think you could do the same with movement as well.  Maybe buy movement in increments of 10 points and define how much that provides for each type (Running, Flight, Leaping, etc....)

The no SPD or even limited SPD becomes complicated in my mind as it seems to impact many different things, not the least of which is tracking END expenditure.  Potentially you could drop the need for both END and REC.  There might also be an impact on adjustment powers and Flashes.

As long an players aren't worried about taking advantage of any inconsistencies that may result from these kinds of changes it could be a nice, simplified alternative.  Maybe a good intro for new players.

You could probably test this pretty quickly and see if any obvious problems crop up.
Claire Redfield
player, 14 posts
Fri 2 Mar 2018
at 07:03
  • msg #21

Re: Rules Questions

I definitely would like to keep END and stuff. You'd still spend it on all the normal things. Maybe REC is after every participant has had a turn, or...? Hm.

Also, M&M doesn't have range bands like I'd like, but I'd wonder how it would work with HERO's system of modifiers. Too much recosting, maybe?
Caranamon
player, 18 posts
Sat 3 Mar 2018
at 08:14
  • msg #22

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to Claire Redfield (msg # 21):

I think that would work like "megascale". Just with a smaller scale.

@DBCowboy:  Take a look at FUZION. It is based on Hero and mostly compatible (the Option points there have the same value as Hero's character points). You can take the simplified structure of a "Round" from FUZION without having to worry about changing the rest of the Hero rules.
Claire Redfield
player, 15 posts
Tue 6 Mar 2018
at 09:09
  • msg #23

Re: Rules Questions

I'd be curious to know if anyone found anything in any of the books, too. Movement simplification or at least some alternatives to the SPD chart would be quite useful. I'd love to test those things out with a good Aliens vs. Predator game, for instance.
soulsight
player, 33 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 03:44
  • msg #24

Re: Rules Questions

Have a, sort of, question about senses. Assume a character has a follower that has been defined as a robotic dog. Both the character and the follower have HRRP, the two are in different locations and the follower has a Mind Link (defined as a form of radio) to his "master".
Is there any reason to suggest the character CAN'T listen and speak through the follower? What would you require, in a game you GM, to allow a character to listen and speak through a follower?
lensman
GM, 33 posts
HEROphile since 81
-8 GMT Crestline CA
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 04:33
  • msg #25

Re: Rules Questions

There are at least three answers I can think of.

First, in the spirit of the genre where there is a robot K9 for a Follower, yes, HRRH has broadcast and that can just be channeled through to a broadcast vox synth.

To hit exactly the K9 may need the Mimic skill

Lastly the k9 may need Images to have a way to project audio, using the Images modifier as a positive to other's PER of the Audio.

The last is really the technocratic answer.

EDIT: Two ideas that I thought of to add.

As a Robot/AI/Computer, just a program to perform the function. Cost 1 pt.

Second, unless the K9 has Mute, it can talk/speak normally.
This message was last edited by the GM at 06:02, Sun 29 Sept 2019.
JRScott
player, 13 posts
Sun 29 Sep 2019
at 04:51
  • msg #26

Re: Rules Questions

Keep in mind HRRP has a range just like all other powers. It's something we overlook often in the game, but if they were sufficiently far away then they would be out of range, unless they bought megascale or something.....

Assuming the two radio's are within range of one another then yes you could probably do what he wants, subject to range penalties.

lensman has some good ideas on other aspects.
Cody Reimers
player, 4 posts
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 09:33
  • msg #27

Re: Rules Questions

So I decided to read through the whole rulebook instead of just looking at whatever I need at the moment (I'd done this before for 5E but not 6E) and I had a thought reading the entry for Penalty Skill Levels. On Page 84 of 6E1, left side middle of the page, it says:

"A character cannot use OPSLs to increase OCV generally... Nor can he buy OPSLs to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By)..."

And that all makes sense. But here's the question: can you use PSLs to counteract halving/zeroing of your CVs? Like you can't use OPSLs to counteract the -3 OCV of Grab By, but once you have successfully grabbed the target, that penalty goes away, but if the target is a character, you gain a 1/2 OCV penalty for having an active grab on a character against all other characters. Can you buy OPSLs to counter that effect? I have my own intuitions about what's the right interpretation but I want to see if there are any interesting arguements from the community that might make me reconsider.
lensman
GM, 34 posts
HEROphile since 81
-8 GMT Crestline CA
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 18:18
  • msg #28

Re: Rules Questions

HERO 6th ed., Vol 1, 84 pg.:
Penalty Skill Levels (PSLs) are a type of Skill
Level that only reduce or counteract a specific
type of combat-related penalty. They come in two
varieties, Offensive and Defensive.


The answer always is: not direct combat penalties.

As any effect on OCV from the Grab is a direct combat related OCV penalty, OPSL do not apply.

You know it is a direct combat penalty when it is described wiithin the maneuver itself.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:21, Mon 14 Oct 2019.
soulsight
player, 35 posts
Mon 14 Oct 2019
at 18:46
  • msg #29

Re: Rules Questions

My personal take is PSL's should never be used where CSL's can apply. If you want to counteract the 'modifier' listed on a combat maneuver, purchase CSL's with the maneuver. They're more versatile, anyway.
It takes twice as many to counteract the 'halving' thing, but they'll still work.
Nothing saves you from being zeroed. Everybody knows that.
novi
player, 1 post
Mon 6 Jan 2020
at 22:16
  • msg #30

Re: Rules Questions

Did Steve Long ever talk about what a Reduce Density power would look like?  Not necessarily staged Desolidification, but being able reduce your weight?  What and if it would have any standard game effects?
cptcthulhu
player, 20 posts
Mon 6 Jan 2020
at 23:52
  • msg #31

Re: Rules Questions

What, like Shrinking with the limitation "does not change size'?
DBCowboy
player, 17 posts
Wed 8 Jan 2020
at 03:17
  • msg #32

Re: Rules Questions

Not that I've seen but seems like you could model it with something like a a physical limitations of increased knockback and a small amount of uncontrolled flight when windy.
novi
player, 2 posts
Wed 8 Jan 2020
at 23:04
  • msg #33

Re: Rules Questions

Okay.  Thanks.  It can be hard to keep track of all the optional rules.  Reducing one's weight isn't something that comes up that often, but a character I'm working should be able to do that as part of her powers.  I was just trying to figure out what it would be good for.  Sounds like maybe some goofy shrinking and maybe some a la carte stunts.
soulsight
player, 37 posts
Thu 9 Jan 2020
at 03:01
  • msg #34

Re: Rules Questions

You could always treat it as a special effect. Define the abilities you think it needs to supply, and give 'Density Decrease' as the sfx. Here's a quick forty point sampler:
    Density Decrease
  • Semi-Solid Form:  (Total: 100 Active Cost, 41 Real Cost) Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1) (Real Cost: 15) plus Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1) (Real Cost: 15) plus Desolidification, cannot be touched, doesn’t register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent (40 Active Points); Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2) (Real Cost: 11)
  • Leaping +40m (44m forward, 22m upward) (20 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1) (Real Cost: 10)
  • Lighter Than Air:  Flight 20m (20 Active Points); Gliding (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1) (Real Cost: 7)
  • Easier to Climb:  Clinging (20 STR) (14 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1), Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)
  • Lighter is Quieter:  +5 with Stealth (10 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1) (Real Cost: 5)
  • Walking on Air: Naked Advantage, Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement] (Running Usable as Flight; +1/4) for up to 12 Active Points of Running (12m) (3 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+6m Knockback; -1) (Real Cost: 1)


Edit - I left out the last suggested power.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:33, Sat 11 Jan 2020.
Cody Reimers
player, 7 posts
Wed 25 Mar 2020
at 05:14
  • msg #35

Re: Rules Questions

Hey, the rulebooks are big and I remember reading about this somewhere, but I can't remember where. Also possible I'm just remembering an old 5E rule, so I want to see if anyone here knows and can set the record straight. When you buy Resistant Protection at a certain value, when you improve it, do you have to maintain that ratio? Say you bought 18rPD/9rED, and you want to increase the rED to 15. Do you HAVE to increase the rPD to 30? I think you were required to in 5E, but can't remember for sure for 6E.
JRScott
player, 14 posts
Wed 25 Mar 2020
at 05:23
  • msg #36

Re: Rules Questions

It's not a rule in 6E.

I believe it was removed because you can just improve your PD or ED and buy the resistant advantage on it now to circumvent the old rules. There wasn't such an advantage beforehand.

The only rule on the rations now is that if you have a defense power that gives you say 12 PDr/6 EDr that ratio has to be maintained even if you use it at a lower level or push it to a higher one (so if you used it at half power would be 6 PDr/ 3 EDr.

I hope things are going well for you Cody. Sorry my health crashed so badly last year.
Cody Reimers
player, 8 posts
Wed 25 Mar 2020
at 06:01
  • msg #37

Re: Rules Questions

Okay. That's what I thought, but like I said, couldn't remember for sure. I did notice the rule for using it at a lower strength. I think that Adjustments to Resistant Protection are also supposed to maintain the existing ratio as much as possible, too.

Things are going alright for me. And there's nothing to apologize for, these are just games, and I was never perfect either, so... In any case, good to see we're both trying to do stuff.
JRScott
player, 15 posts
Wed 25 Mar 2020
at 11:11
  • msg #38

Re: Rules Questions

As GM you are of course free to keep that rule, just because it's not in the book anymore doesn't mean you have to disregard it.
Cody Reimers
player, 9 posts
Wed 25 Mar 2020
at 16:33
  • msg #39

Re: Rules Questions

That's true, but I also play in a game, so knowing the baseline rule is still helpful. In any case, I always disliked that rule; I don't think it really makes sense. Just makes it harder to have a character whose stronger in some defenses than others. Over the course of a long enough campaign, you'll definitely improve all your defenses, but what if you want the weaker defenses to become less bad compared to the good defenses?
stealth
player, 5 posts
Wed 25 Mar 2020
at 16:36
  • msg #40

Re: Rules Questions

From 5th Revised:

"Characters can only buy Armor for PD/ED. They must specify the type of Armor defense (PD/ED) when they buy the Armor. For example if a character spent 21 points he could have 14PD/0ED, 7PD/7ED or any other combination that totalled 14 points. The character cannot change this combination, though they can spend EXP to add to their existing Armor."

I would read that as you can't swap around the points after you buy it, but you can spend EXP to add additional points split between them as you wish.

I couldn't comment on 6th - I've not spent enough time playing around with it to say how its changed.
soulsight
player, 38 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 01:12
  • msg #41

Re: Rules Questions

Sixth eliminated that restriction by lumping everything under a 'resistant defenses' power. As to ratios, increases during play, et al, the important point is not what the rules do say as much as it is what they don't. It's already considered normal to have multiple 'resistant defenses' powers based on advantages and limitations so why wouldn't it be reasonable to have multiple 'resistant defenses' powers based on special effects? Once the defenses are divided into separate 'slots' by being different powers, manipulating the ratios between them wouldn't be difficult, at all.
Cody Reimers
player, 10 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 03:13
  • msg #42

Re: Rules Questions

But by making multiple Resistant Protection Powers - one for rPD, one for rED, etc.- you make your defenses far more vulnerable to Adjustment if the Resistant Protection Powers are Unified - which they might be because there's other powers they're Unified with; say you have an armor suit that provides rPD and rED and also some Life Supports and some Attack Powers, and you would like to A) represent these using one Focus (an OIF), and B) Unified Power. Adjustment Powers with Expanded Effect would similarly have their effectiveness on your defenses doubled. THAT is why you put all your Resistant defenses in one Power.
soulsight
player, 39 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 04:45
  • msg #43

Re: Rules Questions

That's the intended effect of using the 'unified power' limitation. It has nothing to do with separating the defenses into various distinct powers.
Cody Reimers
player, 11 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 06:12
  • msg #44

Re: Rules Questions

Alright, here's my understanding of how Adjustment Powers are supposed to work.

Let's use the armor suit example I was talking about earlier. You have this character with the armor suit, and are thinking of adding Resistant Protection, and you know you want it to be Unified. The armor suit also has a Blast 12d6 Power, defined as an arm canon that fires pellets or rays of energy.

When you consider how to construct the Resistant Protection, you could build it as a single Resistant Protection Power with 10 rPD and 10 rED or as two separate ones, one with 10 rPD and another one with 10 rED.

Let's imagine what happens when this character gets into a fight with an enemy that can negatively Adjust Blasts, which is Unified with the Resistant Protection Power(s). Just to have a name, let's call the theoretical hero Defender; he uses an armor suit, after all. He encounters a villain, Annihilator, who can tear apart any object with his mere presence. He uses his "Annihilate Weapon" Power to Drain Defender's Blast, hits, and rolls 20 for his Effect Roll. All Powers that the Blast is Unified with also 20 Active Points.

Scenario 1: Defender's player chose to build the Resistant Protection as one Power with 10 rPD and 10 rED, which has 30 Active Points. His Blast was Drained 20 Active Points, and so his Resistant Protection should also be Drained 20 Active Points, which it has 30; however, since Resistant Protection is a Defense Power, every Active Point counts as two. Resistant Protection is also bought in increments of 2 defense per 3 Active Points, so for every 6 Active Points in the Drain's Effect Roll, the Resistant Protection loses 2 points of defense, with 2 Active Points of Drain not having an effect yet. Defender's Resistant Protection is knocked down to 7 rPD and 7 rED.

Scenario 2: Defender's player chose to build the Resistant Protection as two Powers. One Power is 10 rPD and 0 rED, the other Power is 0 rPD and 10 rED. Each of those Powers gets Drained 20 Active Points. As said before, Resistant Protection is a Defense Power bought in increments of 2 defense per 3 Active Points. The first Power is now 4 rPD and 0 rED, with 2 points of Drain not having an effect yet, and the second Power is now 0 rPD and 4 rED, with 2 points of Drain not having an effect yet.
soulsight
player, 40 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 14:42
  • msg #45

Re: Rules Questions

OIC. Yes, dividing the defenses into separate distinct powers does make them more vulnerable to adjustment powers. That would be the price paid to circumvent the rule about maintaining the ratios of the purchased defenses.
quozaxx
player, 1 post
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 23:15
  • msg #46

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to Cody Reimers (msg # 44):

I need a quick reference guide to hit locations
I don't have my book with me and thought an easy find reference would be awesome
Thanks in advance
lensman
GM, 35 posts
HEROphile since 81
-8 GMT Crestline CA
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 23:18
  • msg #47

Re: Rules Questions

 STUNxN STUNBODYxto HITRH  R PDRH  R EDWoundsBody taken
3  Neckx5x2x2-8-   5-   3  
4  Facex5x2x2-8-   5-   3  
5  Crownx5x2x2-8-   5-   3  
6  Handx1x.5x.5-6-   5-   3  
7  Armx2x.5x.5-5-   5-   3  
8  U Armx2x.5x.5-5-   5-   3  
9  Shoulderx3x1x1-54   54   3  
10  Chestx3x1x1-34   54   3  
11  Chestx3x1x1-34   54   3  
12  Stomachx4x1.5x1-74   54   3  
13  Vitalsx4x1.5x2-84   54   3  
14  Thighx2x1x1-4-   5-   3  
15  Kneex2x.5x.5-6-   5-   3  
16  Legx2x.5x.5-6-   5-   3  
17  Anklex1x.5x.5-8-   5-   3  
18  Footx1x.5x.5-8-   5-   3  

SPECIAL HIT LOCATION TABLE
General LocationOCVDice Roll
Head Shot (Head-Shoulders)-41d6+3
High Shot (Head-Vitals)-22d6+1
Body Shot (Hands-Legs)-12d6+4
Low Shot (Shoulders-Feet)-22d6+7*
Leg Shot (Vitals-Feet)-41d6+12

This message was last edited by the GM at 23:18, Thu 26 Mar 2020.
quozaxx
player, 2 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 23:50
  • msg #48

Re: Rules Questions

In reply to lensman (msg # 47):

You are awesome
Thanks
DBCowboy
player, 18 posts
Thu 26 Mar 2020
at 23:51
  • msg #49

Re: Rules Questions

On the previous topic of maintaining ratio of PD/ED (resistant or otherwise) defenses....

I don't find anywhere in the rules that stipulate how you are allow to improve your defenses over time.  Nothing that prohibits how you can spend XP.

The only ratio requirement I've come across is under the Defense Power description on 6E1 p146:

quote:
If a character buys a Defense Power that requires him to specify how many points of PD and ED it provides (such as Resistant Protection) as a slot in a Power Framework, he must still define the points when he buys the Power.  If he uses the Power at less than full strength, he reduces its protection in proportion — he cannot vary the defense provided or change the allocation. For example, suppose a character has a Multipower with a 60-point reserve. One of the slots is Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED). The Resistant Protection must always provide PD and ED in equal proportion. If he only uses 15 points’ worth of Resistant Protection, it provides 5 PD/5 ED — he cannot only use 10 points of PD without using any ED.


Adjustment powers like Drain would apply to Defenses in equal proportions (6E1 p196 for Drain).  Regardless if you purchased Resistant Defense as 2 separate powers, a Drain Resistant Defense would still affect both unless the Drain was specifically limited to Drain Resistant PD (possibly because it has a Limitation?)
Redsun Rising
player, 2 posts
Mon 14 Sep 2020
at 04:18
  • msg #50

Re: Rules Questions

I actually do have a question, regarding 6E and it involves something I was eyeballing.

This power here:
Armor-Shredding Qi-Strike: Severe Transform 1d6 (shatters Resistant Defenses), Partial Transform (+1/2)

Bear in mind, the objective is not merely to bust the body armor off my foe. I want to make their skin messed up, their force fields softened, a tank ceasing to be bulletproof, etc. The real question on my mind is that the line between Major Transform and Severe goes from the very specific "you can affect up to twelve points of defenses" to "you can literally turn them into poop if you want", and if I should just push for more as long as I'm in the Severe section.
JRScott
player, 16 posts
Mon 14 Sep 2020
at 16:02
  • msg #51

Re: Rules Questions

With 5 points of Power Defense they become immune to your power.....many bricks have power defense...just something to point out.

Sometimes we think of cool things that just doesn't work out.

A Major transform at most can affect 12 points of Defenses. More than that it is considered Severe. To answer your rules question :)
Redsun Rising
player, 3 posts
Mon 14 Sep 2020
at 22:19
  • msg #52

Re: Rules Questions

It was made on a point budget, and I was trying to not be what I call "rude". Impenetrable is what I take when I absolutely want an Adjustment or pseudo-Adjustment Power to stick, because I can count on one hand the number of published villains with Impenetrable Power Defenses. If they have Power Defense, that's fine, because that's what Power Defense is for.

But I did understand that curve correctly. Alrighty then.
Claire Redfield
player, 17 posts
Tue 1 Dec 2020
at 21:28
  • msg #53

Re: Rules Questions

I've asked some about this before, but I thought it'd be worth trying here:

One of the things that holds me back on HERO is that I really, really dislike the Speed chart. I dislike multiple actions in general; any system in which you can get more actions than other participants invariably means you can do more cool stuff and eclipse everyone else. The game becomes about who gets more actions, which are simply the most powerful ability in the game.

I also dislike the way the chart makes it difficult to even "ballpark" movement speed in my head. Admittedly, this may just be me, but you can't just look at pure movement speed, for instance. You have to look at how many movement actions and stuff you take per turn, and ugh, it's just easier to do it M&M style, where you can move this fast, which means this far in a single move action, or this much in miles per hour, etc.

As I understand it, much of HERO's crunch is actually front-loaded, and in-game, it isn't necessarily much crunchier than many games. If so, i wouldn't mind giving it a serious go for different games I have in mind.

So, any HERO buffs here with input on this? SPD is one of the things I really don't like. The only other thing that is a complete pain for me is figuring out how to add DCs to attacks and whatnot. It seems unnecessarily arcane at times, especially with killing attacks.
Redsun Rising
player, 10 posts
Wed 2 Dec 2020
at 02:57
  • msg #54

Re: Rules Questions

Speed is a stat that takes some getting used to if your primary to-go system is d20, but it only becomes weird once you start getting into numbers that twelve can't process (5 and everything between 7 and 11), or when Speed starts getting altered mid-fight, the latter being something even veteran GMs can struggle with. As niche of a case as it is, precedent about it does help. If d20 isn't your "native" system, Speed is pretty simple to grasp.

"How can a mind so full of knowledge learn anything?" - Jackie Chan, playing himself, because he usually does

This one is going to come down to the ability to unlearn a system, which is a hard lesson. It's just different, mostly. As for alternatives to Speed or Movement, I really don't have a suggestion without turning it into another system.

As for Movement, now that one depends on the edition you are using. 5th and prior used hexes, but 6th moved to meters, but also stated that two meters are one hex, leaving people wondering why the hell they didn't just stick to hex as a unit of measurement. If they moved at half their movement or less, they get an action relevant to combat - yay. If they exceeded that, they don't unless they were doing something like a Move-Through or Move-By - boo. And if they were trucking at Noncombat Speeds, they get their To Hit and To Be Hit stats cut in half - booboo incoming unless they cleared the field.

Damage Classes are written as more complicated then they are, but the gist is this:
Is it Normal or Stun Only damage? +1 DC = +1d6
Is it an NND or a Mental Attack? (Regarding the latter - wut) +2 DC = +1d6
Is it a Killing Attack? +3 DC = +1d6
Is it a Technique that asks about a stat, like Disarm asking about Strength? +1 DC = +5 relevant stat check, or bonus -1 if somehow a roll on 3d6
Is it a Killing NND or Killing Mental Attack? (y u do dis) I'm not sure if the precedent for that regarding Damage Classes exists, given that Damage Classes are usually meant to complement some kind of Martial Art, and I have not seen a Killing NND (or a Mental Attack for that matter) as a Maneuver. But if I must due to some acceptable chicanery on my player's part, I'd probably go with (+6 DC = +1d6), unless testing deems that to be far too conservative.

It looks complex, but as you pointed out, it's mostly front-loaded.
Claire Redfield
player, 18 posts
Wed 2 Dec 2020
at 03:00
  • msg #55

Re: Rules Questions

One possibility is simply leaving all SPD at 3, but I'd still rather just find a way to take it out entirely.
DBCowboy
player, 24 posts
Wed 2 Dec 2020
at 04:32
  • msg #56

Re: Rules Questions

Damages Classes - the table at 6e2 p101 helps a lot with calculating DC, especially when power has an advantage.  Much simpler than all the explanation in 5er p407

Ultimate Speedster describes how to calculate Real-World Speeds on p205 but the Velocity Table on p206 almost makes it a simple lookup.  I don't know offhand if 6e has a similar table.  Truthfully though converting meters/minute or second or hour to miles/hour is available on Google.  Just search 'm/h to miles/h' and the conversion tool should come up.

High SPD characters should generally have less powerful attacks and lower defenses....assuming we're talking about similar point costs.  Consider setting average SPD for your campaign and adjusting max active points for attacks/defenses by how much anyone deviates from it.
 - Say 400 point characters, SPD 5 is average, 60 Active points for attacks, 20 PD/ED 12 rPD/rED
    - For Bricks - SPD 4, 70 active points, 25 PD/ED, 18 rPD/rED
    - For Speedsters - SPD 6, 50 active points, 15 PD/ED, 8 rPD/rED

That may not be quite right but you can probably find a combination you're comfortable with.  I agree high SPD can be very powerful so nothing wrong with making it a trade-off.  Kind of cool if high speed characters need to be a little more creative in how they handle opponents.

Also there's nothing wrong with forcing everyone to slower speeds so that they don't all end up being more than x2-x4 as fast as Normals.  Maybe have everyone start SPD 3 and loose 5 or 10 Active points in powers for every increase in SPD?
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