Polymorph any object says "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine." Seems to me that this would negate the idea, as the corpse of a balor would probably be considered "of great intrinsic value", right? I mean, even without the possibility of animating then awakening it, the corpse of a creature that has wish as an SLA is pretty rare thing (like silver, gems, silk, gold, etc)? Also, if I read awaken undead correctly, it grants extraordinary racial abilities, not spell-like abilities, right? I'm not sure that combination would work even as written.

Like the level by level breakdown - your sheet is actually what prompted me to ask the BAB question for the GM.

Alot of companions - animal companion, item familiar, and possibly a more regular familiar. Are you planning on getting an animal companion? As if I am reading it right your level would be, what 1 or 2 at best?

I am assuming that you went Cloistered Cleric to get Inquistion and Knowledge - one for the dispel and the other so you could get Knowledge Devotion.

It seems like a very strong caster who can shutdown to one degree or another almost any opponent and survive the experience while making it look easy.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 204):

I am not against mindsight, it's a cool ability to have. Albeit need to determine does anything counter it though. In my games, I rule that mind blank or similar effect can block it (but nothing else besides being mindless).

Also, the polymorph anything trick is what I just read online so it may be flawed and not true, just read someone who got balor's corpse via that method and assumed it was because they somehow got able to restore spell-alike abilities back to it (or just have powerful minion).

The idea is that you got a demon body and you changed it to another demon body of similar size. Get a right-sized demon with planar binding and nuke the demon out but the same forum said you can avoid the entire polymorph process just by nuking the balor in a planar bind it into a room loaded with anti-demon nuke spells and traps (with reset function).

But I agree there is plenty of other cheese in-game besides 'what books allow' so it would be good just to talk as a group if anybody goes too cheesy.

I also realized the animate dead counts from any CL the cap (read somewhere in forums in DMG II has a reference to this as errata), so cleric and wizard are not separately counted but CL 20 are still possible (and dread necromancer would be separately counted because it changes the entire formula of how it works first place).

Anyways my major 'cheese' if any is to be the ultimate undead minionmancer and ability to create undead easily (both fodder and potent minions). With some nasty spell combos to debuff/cripple enemies or bolster undead further. Plus some decent versatility in spell choices both from arcane and divine.

Albeit question for others; would cohorts be made same as the players? Opinions on that? Can cohorts be gestalt and have same stat generation? Or are they regular single class progression?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 206):

I recalculated her BAB using fractional and it comes out to +14. I might be able to tweak it up to +15 with a few level shifts, but it doesn't make a huge difference for her. (If she's doing iterative attacks, something has gone horribly wrong.... like having to face an iron golem.)

Yes, her animal companion would be for Wiz3 (Wiz6 if bloodline is allowed everywhere), which is not powerful. That's ok, though, as quite frankly that's her decoy familiar -- to protect her actual familiar (if she takes the feat for it).

From Cloistered Cleric she's getting Inquisition (for the bonus to dispel checks), Charm (for access to charm person, which she otherwise won't have), and Knowledge (for the Knowledge Devotion feat). She'll also take the skill trick "Collector of Stories" -- if we're ok with skill tricks -- as it would provide an alternate method of helping the group in combat situations.



That's the goal! There's a reason her title is "Mistress of Denial"! :D (It's also part of the reason she'd make a good arbiter -- she can't necessarily win by herself via force of arms, but if she has force of arms on her side, troublemakers are going to have a tough time of it.)

---

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 207):

I could definitely see mind blank protecting against Mindsight. Most of the other spells I thought might protect against it (like nondetection or misdirection) only protect specifically against divination spells.

Regarding animate dead cap: Ah, I get it -- you have separate caps for each caster level; it's just that on casting the spell checks against the relevant cap based on ALL of the undead you've currently got created and controlled, regardless of source. It looks like Dread Necromancer basically adds their Cha mod to the number of HD per level controlled -- effectively increasing the cap -- instead of creating a separate pool of undead HD? Given that Dread Necromancer's spellcasting is based on Charisma, that's going to create an insane HD limit -- I'm guessing you'll easily end up with 200+HD of zombies and skeletons. You should probably focus on animating with Dread Necromancer, and using your cleric and wizard for other spells. I don't know all the spells in Libre Mortis, but you should also check out ghoul gauntlet from the SpC, as that could potentially get you ghouls in addition to your zombies and skeletons. Undead Mastery doesn't appear to boost the number of undead you can control through rebuking, but that would still be another HD worth of undead available for you to use....

There's also the soft-cap in the spell in that the skeleton and zombie templates can't be used to create undead of more than 20HD -- which I guess makes sense? It is a 4th level spell, after all. In any case, I'm fine with either interpretation; I'd been imagining that you'd have an small army of undead, so...

Regarding gestalt cohorts: although I like the idea of us being mentors to our cohorts, it probably makes more sense if they're not gestalt -- especially if being gestalt is part of what marks our characters as special in the world. I'd be ok with them having the same stat generation, but gestalt should probably be restricted.

With regards to requested sourcebooks, I would like to see the Complete series, the Spell Compendium, and the Magic Item Compendium. I would also like to use the Drow of the Underdark and FR Underdark books. Underdark is 3.0, but it has the better version of the class I want to use, the Arachnomancer. Drow of the Underdark also has a version of that class, but it is significantly less good as a prestige class.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:34, Tue 18 Oct 2022.

I'd like Dragonlance: Book of Mortals to be allowed, so I could consider including Mariner in my build.

I mentioned earlier, it might be easier to list the books we *don't* want included.

Sorry, I misread. I don't have any particular books to eliminate, though BoED is a bit broken. But if we allow the BoVD then we should probably allow that to balance it. So either allow or ban both. And my understanding is that Serpent Kingdoms allows for broken builds too, though I can't recall how.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 211):

I think I disagree.  Much better to start ar Core Books only (plust Unearthed Arcana to allow Gestalt characters) and then seek to add the books we need for our proposed builds.  In my case that's Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, and Stormwrack.

I had considered Dragonlance: World of Mortals and Forgotten Realms: Shining South but I won't be needing them after all.

If we work this way, it makes the DM's job much easier.

I know that Hathra wants to create a lich with hordes of undead at his command and that's cool so the question there is 'what's the easiest way to do that?'

Same for everybody else.

My build is:
Aventi (LA+0)
Side A:  Scout [Complete Adventurer] 12-15 (depending on level)/Horizon Walker [Core] 1/Invisible Blade [Complete Warrior]5
Side B:  Swashbuckler [Complete Warrior] 9-12 (again dependent on level)/Legendary Captain [Stormwrack] 9

Now I note that UA forbids having two prestige classes at the same level at the same time so at level 20, I could go:

Level   A                   B
1       Scout 1             Swashbuckler 1
2       Scout 2             Swashbuckler 2
3       Scout 3             Swashbuckler 3
4       Scout 4             Swashbuckler 4
5       Scout 5             Swashbuckler 5
6       Horizon Walker 1    Swashbuckler 6
7       Scout 6             Legendary Captain 1
8       Scout 7             Legendary Captain 2
9       Scout 8             Legendary Captain 3
10      Scout 9             Legendary Captain 4
11      Scout 10            Legendary Captain 5
12      Scout 11            Legendary Captain 6
13      Scout 12            Legendary Captain 7
14      Scout 13            Legendary Captain 8
15      Scout 14            Legendary Captain 9
16      Invisible Blade 1   Swashbuckler 7
17      Invisible Blade 2   Swashbuckler 8
18      Invisible Blade 3   Swashbuckler 9
19      Invisible Blade 4   Swashbuckler 10
20      Invisible Blade 5   Swashbuckler 11

Alternatively, I could make things easier by moving all prestige classes to column B and be
A) Scout 20
b)Swashbuckler 5/Horizon Walker 1/Legendary Captain 9/Invisible Blade 5

Just a reminder we did vote on this issue and most voted to allow able double up on prestige classes.

We did but V has said that we can't necessarily assume that he will go the way we voted so I'm going for the safe bet.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 215):

True, just reminded the voting poll cause we do not necessarily go by gestalt rules as written :), that is decided by V.

But build wise yours look nice, whether dual prestige classes are in use or not.

Re: Serpent Kingdoms - The Sarrukh they are normally a 22 ECL race, but by using some exploits a fairly low level character would be able to gain their most powerful ability fairly quickly. At least according to a certain reading of the rules which I don't think really works. This ability allows them to pretty much modify any 'Scaled Ones' in a lot of different ways.

Ghanek do you see him as being Admiral or Harbormaster? That is military force leader or a law enforcement leader? Or something between the two?

For me, I'd *love* to have an item familiar, mostly for its flavor, but from my opinion, the bit about extra XP would need to be reviewed and modified.  Maybe that power doesn't exist.  Maybe the XP bonus can only be used for crafting or the XP component of spell casting.  Maybe some other solution.

We're talking crazy high level, high power anyway.  It's not a game to win, just to play.  Sometimes the heroes / protagonists fail in their efforts, or succeed but cause terrible, unintended consequences.  I expect our dread and mighty DM will veto any exploit-based concept builds from Internet forums out of hand.  Likely there's little space for Pun Pun in this group, at least if we're fortunate.

Oh definitely harbormaster or perhaps 'Admiral' of a merchant fleet. My idea was for all of us working together to rebuild the derelict ancient city of Ivost and Ghanek's part (or Haakon's part at the time) was to rebuild the legendary harbour.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 218):

As someone else who has an Item Familiar as part of my build, I'd be perfectly fine eliminating the XP bonus power.

And V is, quite frankly, the best high level GM I've ever had the pleasure to play under, as he very much knows his stuff. In fact, I think if we can figure out a way to work together, we will have an amazingly fun time (assuming V also remains ok, of course). In my experience, player conflict (and negative feelings) is one of the main reasons very high level games fall apart.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 220):

Much appreciated Maynitra! :)

Yes, player dispute, and on about 40% player sourness has been a huge deterrent to games I've GMed at high level. I like high level, for one very big reason, I can kill PCs (which I have bad luck with in low level!) and it's not game over. I am all for power, I just don't want paperwork that it becomes arduous.

I'm also prone to allow quite a bit, I just want to make sure I can properly address the party. This game is even less important to "challenge" you all, as it is scaled from 1st to 40th, but the lower end, much like the MM, is the weight of the world. I'm not worried about the PCs stomping on my antagonists, be they righteous or justified or otherwise. More often it's PCs that have problems with other PCs, or those few bad apples that want to make me having custom NPCs into me somehow having "pet NPCs". I don't anticipate that here. Then again, I never have before either.

Unlike my other high level games, I wanted to start with the tried and true foundation that you're all a team. So far, from what I've read, you've been working to pull each other up and scale the group with each others' input. I think that will help.

Item Familiar, will likely see a modification, but I like it as well. I personally like the XP reserve idea, but again, non-casters may feel even more of a disparity exists if I do. Then again, while the XP is the big thing, it's not really what those here are after. The skill bonus, IMO is quite awesome. The magical abilities, even like (IIRC) magic circle, is really potent, especially if someone uses compulsions, to give suppression under control.

Simply put I'm trying something new here, by letting all players have an open book (with some exceptions) and talk will little discourse from me, and then in a couple days, I'll close the thread and see what's said.

Anyway!

I love high level combat too. I feel it can go long, but if it does, I feel PCs (and antagonists) have exit strategies I can pull to abort a combat that is no longer fruitful. Also skills become more fun too. Non-combat magic presides more than ever, as low level spells don't have to be "vital". Especially in a city game, we'll be spending even more time with trivial affairs that should still be engaging to influence.

I appreciate the sentiment Maynitra gave. I've had four high level games that were very fun, and players were sad to see them close. RL, especially my current RL is the second biggest threat to my games. That's always been the ultimate coup de gras. Having a bad or tiny play pool has been the stunning blow that left the game staggered, but RL has been the deathblow. As long as I work to have a healthy posting limit, minimum and maximum, and players are okay quitting (if you want to) rather than disappearing, I think I have even more going this time than before.

That said, high level, while where I thrive, is high maintenance. I'll be going over some etiquette to keep the game from rewinds whenever possible (sometimes it won't be, sometimes we may HAVE to rewind). I'll also work with you and potential newer players to find a medium to communicate information I need, where I need it, when I need it, and how I need it. This can be tedious, but I find it not only vital, but highly helpful.

So, what needs to happen now? Are we mostly decided on our votes, then?

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 222):

Votes are decided but no charsheet can be made until V gives the final information on how chars are made. We had a discussion on what kind of books are allowed and so far Exalted Deeds and Vile Deeds were called out because it is easier to say what books not allow than what books are allowed as there is a big source of them.

I kind of agree with this as it's easier to allow all official stuff (besides named banned books/sources) and as sheets come together and we reveal what 'tricks' each char is capable of doing, we can call out the overly cheesy ones and either rule/ban those overly cheesy tricks away.

Also, agreeing on how/why we are a team, I have mentioned it pair of times already in my idea/proposal about how we are a team. We may have possibly come across each other individually in past or done a job or two but the major event where we as a single group, together, took down a dracolich that ruled ruins of the city which we all had an interest in it.

The reason why we worked or wanted city together is that being a gestalt type of char is something unique in this world, like being born a natural genius but an even rarer trait. Meaning we are 'monstrously powerful' and that scares loads of bunch of regular folks.

More so even powerful adventurers who aren't gestalt are treated with serious caution if they aren't reigned in or controlled by the ruling elite who are much less powerful than the adventuring lot.

So thus our dreams surround living, controlling, or ruling in a city or need a city environment for our dreams or even a nation, we can't satisfy our dreams in other nations or cities because the ruling elite politely (or even outright hostile) manner tries smoke or drive you away accomplishing said dreams. So the solution is simply establishing a city/nation and making your own rules in there which allow your dreams and goals to prosper.

With the above, we get interesting dealings into politics and economics, as we need to recruit subjects and people willing to live in the city, do business in our city and also influence and make other cities and nations willing to do business with our city. Albeit naturally they still remain wary of the group considering how powerful we are. They know even individual level any of us can wreck any city or nation in most places, so they would avoid open hostility or warfare unless they are truly desperate or suicidal or think a powerful military alliance of multiple cities/nations can topple our military and exhaust us. You can slay even a dragon if you make the dragon run constantly without rest after all.

Also more so we aren't the only gestalt or powerful adventurers in the world (and there are powerful threats/monsters still) is also a balancing factor, but it can be Crucible is the largest concentration of varied individual powerful people in the world. At least publicly.

I like the backstory.

Does 3.5 have anything akin to Pathfinder's Kingdom Building rules?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamem...es/kingdom-building/
This message was last edited by the player at 23:43, Thu 20 Oct 2022.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 223):

I thought we'd all agreed basically to this as our background story, right? And we defeated a dracolich as part of claiming the city/ruins that we're rebuilding for our city?



In reply to Narya (msg # 224):

Nothing except for the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (and, if we get desperate, the Dungeon Builder's Guidebook -- not because we shouldn't build dungeons, but because that book was significantly less helpful than the SBG).

A question for V, but also for the rest of you.

We had previously discussed item familiars, and basically had nixed the idea of the "bonus XP" pool being used for leveling. Maynitra has one -- it's part of her background -- are folks ok with her still having that bonus XP (23,200) to use for spells/items/etc?

I'm asking specifically because I would like to use it to provide xp for casting the Genesis spell -- that is, a spell that creates a demiplane. If she can use the xp in the ring she can cast the spell 4 more times than she'd otherwise be able to... with additional castings possible as she levels up.

As far as the demiplanes themselves, she'll have one of her own no matter what. With the ring, however, she could enlarge hers (up to 720ft radius, or about 1/4 of a mile across) or she could create several (say, 4 of them at 180' radius or 2 at 360' radius each, etc). Although she can't create life within it, she can control the placement of things like the ground and water and such -- which means we could have a body of water within, or caves, or whatever. We can definitely decide what the interior is like... so long as there's space for Maynitra's Refuge.

If we go this route, you should either make sure you set aside 150k for the portal to access it. (Maynitra's cohort has the feats and Maynitra has the spells to actually craft it, so long as you're willing to pay the gold and/or xp.) Or, if we want to create a shared portal, we can split the costs. (Maynitra's already spent the funds for her personal entrance.) Either way, I just wanted to toss this out there, as I thought it might be a good way to have a relatively protected place for meetings/rest/etc.

Potentially relevant messages by number.

If anyone finds more posts, that do not cite Item Familiar by name, list them and I'll edit to include them here.

msg #106: proposal of banning item familiar.
msg #107: The pool being proposed, as an XP pool that does not contribute toward leveling.
msg #218: A "vote" in support of the use of the pool
msg #220: Maynitra's first explicit mention of being flexible, and the first explicit inquiry from her.
msg #221: I support the idea of the pool

---

I want to ensure there is transparency. I have in mind a decision to allow the bonus XP for purposes other than leveling. If there are cases against this; I'd like to hear them, and find mitigations to those problems created, rather than cases against the pool. That is, if Item Familiar is creating a disparity, to find way to close in that disparity, rather than put ban on the XP pool. I can ad hoc some solutions. First I need to know if there are any problems, and if so, what those problems are; specifically.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 227):

I say the easiest solution is that we have XP pool (everyone) which does not count towards leveling but for crafting or paying XP cost for spells (either casting or cast on them). So item familiar alone does not give the pool to the user.

But then again to get XP pool for crafting you can acquire it via having artificer levels so not against those who sacrifice a feat to get an item familiar and XP pool separated from leveling.

That's a good idea. Let me review what I said was the "Final" ruling for XP above level. I wish I had caught this before I made my final ruling. I need to review the poll again, and reconsider the particular point about XP over level. I'd like others to discuss the item familar, but this may be solely my fault, and so my duty to fix. I can say "I'm not perfect" or some version of that, but I messed up, and I apologize. I'm going to review the specific poll answer about XP over level and see if I want to overturn my "final" ruling.