I'm exploring levels, books allowed, racial HD, gestalt or not, and other factor here. Gestalt is very likely, but not definite. I'm only allowing non-dread necromancer characters. My friend is playing a dread necromancer and he wants that to be his thing. I'd also like to limit one player per PrC and non-core classes. That is negotiable.

We can, and should, discuss the following here:

• Preferred Classes
• Gestalt or not
• Books allowed or not
• Racial HD
• Point Buy pool, or dice, or latter with former safety.
• Starting Level
• Starting Wealth
  
  • Some for fixtures of the city
  • Some devoted to consumables, including
    
    • Scrolls
    • Epic Spells
    • Potions (can be up to 9th since an NPC is an Alchemist class from a Faerun book)
    • Spell Components
    • Wands
    • Staves
    • Charms
    • Oils and Salves
    • Elixirs
    • Alchemical supplies (though this will be largely for pitiful threats, and giving to followers).
  • Some for permanent magic items
  • A tiny bit for mundane gear carried (so not structures) or mounts
• HP resolution (same applies to monsters)
• Intelligence finalizing skills vs incremental intelligence affecting skills

Aspects not up for discussion are as follows:

• Banned Sources:
  
  • Tome of Battle
  • Magic of Incarnum
  • 3rd party books other than Immortals Handbook
  • Web only non-pdfs, even if canon
  • KoK
• Banned Content
  
  • Rainbow Servant combination with Warmage type, or any all access ports, that essentially hack into all preparation spells spontaneously. Exceptions are Wish, Miracle and Any Spell power
  • Infinite combinations
  • Infinite multipliers
  • Stacking of magic items with unnamed bonuses that create a power gap, such as Orange Ioun Stones.
  • Anything that even implies Prestidigtattion can be used in combat beyond pinnache.

It should be noted, there is currently a GM wanted ad I'm watching. While I'm going to secure positions based on this string of names, it does have some impact on this game, and so I may be incorporating some of the discovery of methodology from this GM wanted ad. I feel this game has some strong parallels, but deviates enough to be unwarranted for a "I can GM this" reply.

This is the GM wanted ad: link to a message in another game

I appreciate the addition of Stronghold builders guide, but may deviate on the need for a class ot feat to gain effectively, a game central theme. Seems...silly. For this game at least! I already know it will be city building and management game. So I sort of have a different more transparent and up front method of effectively giving the landlord feat. Some things might be tweaked from that book, as it's in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, but it's good inspiration! Just don't get too attached to the rules as written in the supplement.

I myself prefer if we would be able to start as +13 level chars (cause want to play as a lich and impossible enter one with +2 LA not sooner than 11th level char). Would not mind higher levels either. Also, gestalt adds some added versatility to the chars (but fine if leave it out).

But if start lower than need to consider alternative undead (like necropolitant or go straight pale master) for my concept.

I'd quite like to be 18th level at Maximum, not quite Epic but able to do most of what we want to be able to do in building up Ivost to become the awesome city we know that it can be.

Also because I see Haakon as equal parts Aquatic Ranger, Rogue and Horizon Walker and given his character, I don't want to see him beginning with more than six levels of Horizon Walker.

Similarly I'd put a minimum level of nine because the requirement of 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) means Haakon can't become a Horizon Walker until he's level 5 - which means I could conceivably play him with three levels of each class.

Which material will we be using from the Immortals Handbook? As that book is really designed for higher epic play, I am not sure how useful it will be for the lower to mid levels that are being proposed.

A fair point well made and a good argument for a higher level. I've never actually paid at Epic level before but I'm guessing, the next question is which parts we want to play with?

IIRC, I also read in another thread we might be considering either spell points or recharge magic.  Does anyone have thoughts about those?  They're fairly powerful options to consider and may make non-casters feel a bit left out.  Gestalt might mitigate that somewhat, though.

GM Note: Due to serious distraction, I edited this post rather than posted a new one with quotation. Genuine regret and apology for bricking the post.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:59, Thu 06 Oct 2022.

Indeed, if use spell points or recharge magic the gestalt would help balance things out (even if book nine swords is taken out which would have been one major balancing force but also understand why it's not allowed cause few combos and maneuvers which are broken, albeit the 'infinity' rule sort blocks some combos).

Besides ultimate magus I have thought one side could be also warlock/ur-priest (with possible eldricth disciple) or marshal/ur-priest combo as well so my char can be a very versatile caster overall.

Albeit big question is for my build is the dread necromancer player still around, if not, may swap my build from being sorcerer/wizard to dread necro/wizard.

I'm not a fan of gestalt myself but how about we think about who we want to play and what we want to contribute to the city.  That way, we get a clue as to what levels and what books we actually need?

Hi all.
Anything above 13th level will get me the basic build I want to I cool beyond that.
If we go gestalt you are doubling each characters power.  Just keep that in mind.

Gestalt doesn't actually double your power. It does make your character more powerful, but mainly it increases versatility rather then pure power.

Still the Gestalt question is one we should probably answer first as it will effect everything else we do. I am in favor of it, but could find a different concept if needed.

In reply to Primuson (msg # 11):

That's true, gestalt does not double your power. Only add versatility to the character.

My concept is to be spellcaster lich, powerful, lots of minions, and do some item crafting on sides maybe. The exact extent of how much I am caster depends do we gestalt and what is the highest level we can reach.

What my char does is most likely be helping build a city with a free and tireless labor force in form of undead he has created and he can provide extend magical utilities to the city (intend to have craft wondrous both to be a lich and general able do magical wonders). He may support ideas for magical academies and libraries and perhaps create an active necropolis section in the city (where sentient undead reside in and try peacefully co-exist with living).

My concept is a sailor who is rebuilding the broken harbour of Ivost after thirty years doing pretty much everything that can be done on ships. From pleasure cruises to piracy, from fishing to fighting in naval warfare, to smuggling. In effect, this is his retirement.  Now he's building up his legend and legacy.

This concept doesn't rely on particular classes or builds but it's helped by having some materials available.  I'd quite like to have a ship and crew for example.

I'll put this all into a neat thread for a final vote when I feel you all have had the chance to discuss things. I do want to alert everyone, that I was not prepared to do compatibility testing at this stage. While I hope and wish for everyone to work out together, I know that there is a likelihood some of you might bow out. I have other players waiting, if we lose a large portion of the cast.

That said, we still haven't heard from everyone, and some of the cast are carry over characters that need to be moved or deleted.

Banned Sources questions:

Web only non-pdfs, even if canon - I am assuming this is stuff like Mind's Eye etc. The stuff that was published in WotC website as articles?

What about Dragon Magazines?

Also, Haakon - what kind of ship do you want? Warship? Merhcant? Skyship? Maybe an astral skiff that can planeskip and you brought back from the time that you sailed the Astral Sea and maybe did some light pirating of the Gith?

Maybe even spelljammer ship :D

I was thinking of a lightly armed merchantman but now you mention it, preying on the Gith on the Astral seas sounds fun so maybe an Astral skiff.

The demigod+ material when (if!) your characters reach epic level. If we start at 13th, I doubt that will ever happen. I think it's a non-zero chance, but very low. 18th would have decent chance, but we'd probably see RL years pass before you got to 21st.

I'm going to be multi-posting, with one post for each reply! So please read the ones that pertain. I'm doing this to organize replies.

I might consider non-spellcasters (those with zero spell slots) being able to triple gestalt, or take PrC's that allow narrow spell-like abilities as stand alone "third" classes. Stonelord, IMO, would be fine to just sit there, not taking up either side, or contributing HP, skills, or otherwise, but giving its class features as a third "side" of class features. This has worked with F2F (face to face) games, and in fact, in that experience, people still felt casters were better. It's something to consider. I'm open to making non-casters more fun.

I do not, however, even want to consider ToB. I've playtested it, and it doesn't work the way it's proposed to. So ToB is not the answer. So please consider that off the table.

If we don't gestalt, I might allow non-casters the chance to branch into a side class that, again, doesn't give any stat upgrades, but grants class features. This is not applicable to paladins or rangers or bards; even if you take a zero spell version. just rogue, fighter, barbarian, monk and PrC that don't offer spell slots. Also possibly non-core classes. Warlocks, however, would not gain this perk.

Doing this makes the few low casters less appealing, but I think that's fine. If I allowed them, it would make them too appealing and prone to skewing to close to casters.

If people want to play paladins or bards, or rangers, then we probably won't use this rule. If people want to have more than fighter feats or rogue skills, this might help give more incentive.

No....sadly. You may play a dread necromancer. Another friend, however, is playing a Red Wizard, so would like to see that reserved for them. She, however, is not so picky. So if someone really wants to play a red wizard, she says "let them".

In reply to Brookdale Moongazer (msg # 10):

As stated already, gestalt does not double power. It fortifies the party to be able to take higher CRs and thus they get less XP. It is, however, with a grain truth. Playing with class that are flavor only, on both sides, will make those that play with powerful class *Ultimate Magus & Red Wizard* be about 150% more disparity than they would be in single class. Meaning if one person picks Bard/Dread pirate//Ronin/blackguard and another players Conjurer/Red Wizard//cleric/Cosmic Descryer. and both are 24th level. The first character won't even feel epic. They will feel like a 16th level character, in an epic game, while the second character will feel like a 28th level character in a 24th level game. This is not gestalt doing this, this is class disparity, only moderately affected by gestalt.

Not allowed.


case by case basis. I have a collection of dragon magazines in pdf. As I had a sub to DDI for 4e, for many many years, as a gift from a friend. Will, in fact, the player that was going to play the Dread Necromancer, who subsequently dropped out. Will kept the account active long enough to see the service retired, and toward the end I had the option to DL dragon magazines (even 3.5 ones). Bad compensation, and left bitter taste in my mouth for them not to allow the users to DL the PROGRAM! But...I digress. I have access to the magazines I DLed, but not all. I had to DL them one by one, so don't nearly have them all.

In reply to Haakon (msg # 17):

I would suggest buying a ship from Arms & Equipment and then upgrading it with Stormwrack items, TBH. I will be introducing the ship from Maguic of Faerun at some point, but that is an overpriced item at nearly a 20th level character's TOTAL wealth. I forget the name, but it's like 720k. I'd very much look as Stormwrack instead. Same price will do far more and have far more versatility. Still very pricey though! VERY pricey indeed.

*nods*

She can claim that PrC reserved fine for me, albeit it can also be fun have two red wizards and more so considering they use circle magic system where they can reach a ridiculous amount of power based on participants. But I like to play ultimate magus for the flexibility it provides (and flavor). So very unlikely to go red wizard.



It was Halruaa Skyship what your thinking about (it's insanely expensive as well were other magic items). Cheaper get an airship (and probably easier rulewise function) using Eberron sources, I recall air or fire elemental empowered airship from EBerron was 250-300K range. However it was tied to captain having Mark of the Storm but that's mostly flavor and can rule captain just need charisma checks vs elemental to command the ship.

Hmm... no, don't want an airship thanks and this Halruaa Skyship doesn't sound like something I'd want.  Happy to get a ship from arms and equipment.  Frankly, given a choice between airship and submarine, I'd go for the submarine, especially if I find a way to sail in and out of the Plane of Water.

In reply to Haakon (msg # 4):

Hi all -- sorry for not responding more quickly, but I wanted to verify a few details with V before saying anything. So here are a few of my thoughts, both in response to V's original post and in response to some of the discussion that's occurred since then:

1. I'm personally fond of gestalt, but I would be ok without it; I'd also prefer higher level (15+). Maynitra was built for a previous incarnation of The Staff's Wake in which she was ECL27. The lower the build level is here, the farther I end up from my original concept -- which, of course, is ok, but it'd be nice to stick closer to home.
   
   
2. While gestalt and level matter, I think I'm also very interested in understanding the political balance and alignments allowed. What will keep our characters aligned and working toward common well-being? If folks are planning on building Chaotic Evil characters, what keeps them from screwing over everyone else? In other words, how are we, as players, going to make sure that the narrative remains coherent and doesn't dissolve into chaos? V has a ton on his plate already; figuring out a way to agree to work together will make things easier for him, and make it more likely that the game continues. (As an aside/full disclosure: Maynitra is Lawful Neutral in alignment.)
   
   
3. A suggestion -- as we're considered leaders/movers/shakers/etc in this region, everyone should get Leadership as a bonus feat, with an additional amount of money used solely for infrastructure/organizational resources? This could cover things like Haakon's ship, temples, universities, etc. It would add an additional bookkeeping element for us, and we could instead, of course, simply handle it as fluff. Will our focus be more on personal acts as individuals, or management of city resources?

Anyway, I'm glad to be here, and it's good to meet all of you!

1) As mentioned fine +13 level so 15-18 is fine for me. So far perhaps to get the most out of being a leader (and more money) is to start at a higher level. So 18 everyone? If commit long-term we may get epic levels and get use immortals handbook. Or if want a quicker pace to epic levels, start already on 20.

2) In My end my char alignment will be lawful evil, Hathra's goal is more to establish a base of power where he can openly exist as undead and lich without 'overly zealous' paladins coming to smite him because he chose to be undead. He can be ruthless, but he is a man of principle and he does not attack someone unprovoked (or make their lives living hell). In overall goal is to seek happiness for himself and those who follow and respect him.

Does he plan to conquer the world? Yes, as he views the world as unforgiving and intolerant to undead overall and he seeks to achieve his world domination scheme at a patient but slow pace. Once he is a tyrant (a beneficial/benevolent in his view sort tyrant) he can secure himself and others' happiness and his seeking happiness is entirely selfish and is well aware of it. However, depending on how IC interactions go he may give up being a tyrant and simply rule the world with a council of like-minded individuals instead (but as a lich he has eternity to wait and plan so anyone in the council who is not undead/immortal, he outlives them and their descendants likely).

His Illumian side encourages everyone to seek their own niche and perfection and he knows he cannot do this alone (at least at this stage), so he has allies and tries to cooperate with them without stepping on anyone's toes seriously in the process. In the group and council, he is the guy who asks 'how do we or our city benefit from doing this?' when any plans or expanding or diplomatic relations are done as he aims for everyone, he, his followers, and the council gains benefits. He aims for stability and long-term sustained benefits over quick ones if negative side effects are long term but he can do quick beneficial things if negative sides can be diminished or entirely eliminated.

3) I agree as leaders of city we could have both leadership and landlord feats as free bonus feats. Leadership give followers/cohort loyal to us (not fill citizen population as not entire population is diehard loyal). Landlord feat can cover buildings which we contribute to the city and can invest to get double of the investment to 'build more' which we can choose invest in. Also landlord can cover business establishing expenses (business running rules found in DMG II are useful).
This message was last edited by the player at 21:11, Thu 06 Oct 2022.

18 works for me, I think.  I think I'm going to be using very little magic (if any) but at that level and with the leadership feat, I think I can get my crew to work as a well oiled machine.

Well if you want to limit some of the options for Gestalt you could just say that on the upper power level you can't take two high powered classes - for those who use the Tier idea you can't Gestalt 1/1, 1/2, or 2/2. That would limit some of the craziest Gestalts.

I am personally in favorite of gestalt - because I am probably if we do it going to have one side be mostly Monster and the other a class. You rarely have the chance to be a lycanthrope of one stripe or another, or an Ogre Magi, or perhaps a Haraknin.

Hathra if you want an Undead minion master have you considered maybe Dread Necromancer // Cleric with Deathbound domain?

I have considered cleric side with deathbound domain as well, to maximize the 'minion' pool even further.

So far leaning to Wizard 1/Dread Necromancer 8/Ultimate Magus 9 to one side (not access to 9th level spells as arcane sucks a bit but ensures big minion pool and some arcane flexibillity). So having devoted cleric side would help nicely. But if go tier idea, both wizard and cleric are tier 1 so cannot worked together in the build (unless taking ultimate magus one side negates tier 1 status).

Perhaps otherr side has cleric with deathbound and death domains and sorcerer and enter true necromancer prestige class (with 18th level cap at 11th level as true necromancer albeit that side likely I place +2 LA being lich and be 9th level true necromancer). Just further cement in the fact Hathra is completely devoted necromancer and master of undead (and really overall diverse caster overall).

Edit; realized the undead mastery feature from dread necromancer is based on their class levels than CL. So now leaning to one side being dread necromancer entirely (and if possible, 20th level PC's would allow me be lich without +2 LA needed to be taken).

Other side could be wizard/cleric/true necromancer. Also after checking what god/goddess would fit for cleric; Wee Jas makes most sense (if fellow PC's and GM allows that Wee Jas has access to deathbound domain which makes sense to her).
This message was last edited by the player at 08:26, Fri 07 Oct 2022.

I'm in agreement with these two points, Maynitra.

We do need to sort out our individual and collective motivations.  If our town is capital-E evil with a significantly non-zero chance of being eaten by the hungry dead, who will come here of their own accord and who will remain?  That heavily shapes the character of the town and can dramatically affect the sorts of divine assistance and interference we could expect.  It has a fairly significant impact on the sorts of PCs that would fit into the party, as well.  How will this mesh should another player choose to put forward a PC in direct opposition to the undead and how would you envision that playing out in terms of city government?

As for leadership as a "free" feat, it would be helpful.  Are we thinking to use the Landlord feat, as well, to have a variety of fortresses within the city, a number of power bases held by individual party members in support of personal and collective goals?

Haakon is Chaotic either Good or Neutral

If Gestalt at level 18, I'm thinking on one side Bard 9 Legendary Captain and on the other Swashbuckler 12 Horizon Walker 6.
Rogue 6
If non-gestalt at level 18, I'm thinking Aquatic Ranger 6, Legendary Captain 6

Well, Hathra would try to keep the undead population under control and any undead who have 'need' for feed need to do it civil manner (basically instead of gold/coin they can trade services in return for getting a taste of blood, flesh or life energy depending on feeding method). Any undead who causes problems is exiled/eliminated as needed.

Landlord can be used to build places in the city in which PC's have directly contributed/funded or if desired combined resources to build their 'base of operation' which can be a castle/fortress in the city but I was also thinking DMG II rules how to establish business and running business being covered by landlord gp than PC personal gp.

For example some PC may want to upgrade city walls to be made from steel example and landlord can cover that expense. Haakon may spend landlord gold for building the docks (as building slots in the stronghold builder guide has actual quick rules on how to build docks even but he could buy it multiple times to expand to make it bigger or better than a normal dock).

Hathra's end likely covers the necropolis area in the city, temples, catacombs, housing etc.

I realize that we're not running a kingdom, but Pathfinder 1E does have rules that we could use to think through some of our organization ideas.

For example, they have a list of suggested leadership roles and areas of competence, which I'll generalize and simplify a bit for our purposes:

• Communications/Edicts (internal communications and orders)
• Diplomacy/Trade (external communications and supply chains)
• Guilds/Economy/Banks (internal markets -- legitimate/legal)
• Crime/Black-Market (internal markets -- illegitimate/illegal)
• Information Gathering/Spying (espionage and counter-espionage)
• Religion, Festivals, and Calendar (dealing with deities and their representatives, plus temples)
• Research, Education, and Magical Arcana (dealing with other arcane issues)
• Combat Forces/Military
  • Guards/Police (internal peace-keeping)
  • Scouts/Rangers/Army (external/regional peace-keeping)
  • Invasion/Counter-Invasion Forces (can be done by Guards, Scouts, and Conscripts, too)

This message was last edited by the player at 21:04, Fri 07 Oct 2022.

Indeed, pathfinder 1E has rules for kingdom ruling but we can simplify it and get an idea of potential roles that each party member (and cohort) covers in the city.

Huh.  I see the rules you're mentioning out in the PF SRD.  I wonder whether those're lifted from the Kingmaker AP.

It's too bad rPol doesn't have a polling tool so we could move past discussion straight onto voting for various options where we don't seem to be making marked progress.  The options have been laid out pretty well, but I'm not sure we're any closer than when we started.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:19, Sat 08 Oct 2022.

Might want to look at Power of Faerun too - not sure how much it might add to the discussion, but that was somewhat what that book was talking about.

So, are we going to go Gestalt? If we do, then are we following the suggestion that we ban what are dual class PrCs - they use the examples of Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, and Eldritch Knight? Since that was created a lot more of those type of classes have been created obviously.

We could have a thread for Votes. List out what we are currently voting on and then have everyone post with vote and then once everyone has done so tally the vote and then use it again on our next vote.

Also there are online poll systems which someone can provide link and anyone with link access can vote once for given options.

Myself I would favor more not ban the dual class PrC's, allow use them but only if you qualify to them with one side of gestalt.

Example;

Allowed Gestalt Build:
Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10
Fighter 10/Weaponmaster 10

Not allowed gestalt build:
Wizard (specialist) 5/Mystic Theurge 10
Cleric 5/Master Specialist 10
This message was last edited by the player at 15:45, Sat 08 Oct 2022.

If we're going gestalt, I have problem with that restriction because both of the PrCs I have in mind require a certain number of ranks in Knowledge (Geography).

Well, the restriction qualitification for a PrC is only for dual casting progression PrC's not regular ones. If you get BAB or skill or feature requirements filled thanks to having the other side being skill monkey build and the main build being then focusing on other qualifications, then can enter the PrC (or maybe even sooner than what normally is possible).

For example, Magelord which asks for evasion could have qualifications like this;

Wizard 9/Magelord 10
Rogue 10/Assassin 9

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 38):

My votes:

1. I would personally favor doing gestalt, and I would be ok with Hathra's suggested limitation on dual casting progression.
   
   
2. For level, I'd be ok with anything in the 18-21 range, with the restriction no epic spellcasting (at least to start).
   
   
3. Spell-points: I think we've had a proposal on those, but I'm not entirely sure what we're looking at there...

My votes:

1) I accept Gestalt and given Hathra's clarification, I accept the restriction
2) For level if it's gestalt, I don't care.  If it's not gestalt, then I'd say 18
3) I have no thoughts on spellpoints but I'm not really in favour of something that makes magic users even more powerful compared with the rest of us.

My votes:

1) Favoring gestalt, with my suggested limits on dual-caster progression.
2) Level wise 18-21 like Maynitra, whether gestalt or not
3) Fine with using spellpoint/spell recharge rules, for Haakon's info those gestalt/char builds that have no casting abilities whatsoever (in return getting spellpoint system), get 'third' gestalt path which further diverse yourself or able to get templates (or play monster if prefer, assuming non-spellcasting monsters).

I'm going to be putting up a single post poll soon. Also I'll poke the players added that haven't posted.

So I could be, for example...

Scout 9/Horizon Walker 9 PLUS Rogue 9/Legendary Captain 9 AND Swashbuckler 9/Invisible Blade 9? For a triple threaded gestalt with legendary non-magical abilities?

I am fine with Gestalt - If we are using the dual casting limited to one side would like it to be said you can only have such a class on one side to avoid this kind of silliness - Druid/Beguiler/Arcane Heirophant // Warmage/Wizard/Ultimate Magus

Level 18 sounds good. High enough we might hit epic, but with enough time to discuss what it would be like.

Don't know enough about the proposed spellpoints to comment.

Think it would be more like the first two and then you could pick up a low powered class and have those abilities added.
I personally would think of it like this (probably not the way most people do) - if you gestalt as two non spellcasting Tier 4s or Tier 5s you can pick a Tier 4 or 5 and gain that classes class features without gaining anything else like favorable saving throws, BAB, skills, etc.
Scout 9/Horizon Walker 9 PLUS Rogue 9/Legendary Captain 9 AND have the class features of a Swashbuckler 18? Maybe?

Also as a rule - for gestalt you can pick up multiclassing feats but they apply only to one side of a Gestalt. I am looking at you, Daring Outlaw, Master Spellthief, Ascetic Stalker, etc.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:48, Sat 08 Oct 2022.

I fully support this limitation as well. And we're ok with prestige classes on both sides simultaneously?



Quite frankly, both spell points and this "extra stuff" addition feels excessively complicated to me. We're already pushing the bar with high-level gestalt and community leadership; do we really need more? I'm fine to roll with it, but like I said -- feels excessive and complicated.



Agreed on this point as well.

I agree on both pointers as well, also indeed support the idea you can have prestige class on both sides progressing same time. So long they do not hold any conflict with each other or are affected overly much by another side (looking at Ur-Priest class which caster level is PrC + 1/2 of other spellcasting classes, can get past 20 levels easily if have warlock 10/Ur-Priest 10|Wizard 5/Sorcerer 5/Ultimate Magus 10). Not saying ban Ur-priest but only allow gain additional caster levels from their side of gestalt than both sides (as it would go act against other rules which do not allow untyped bonuses stacking infinitely/too much).

In spellpoints I do agree it can add complexity where it may not desire, I am okay learn them but if people don't want to use them I am fine with it as well. Just merely more open-minded about using spellpoint system but not bound to it.

If the juice isn't worth the squeeze, then it's a no go. I'll poll about spellpoints, but remove the triple class idea. I've done it with friends of friends, and that's about it. So for the introduction of online users, that may have nothing but D&D in common, this was a bad idea.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 49):

Not a bad idea to bring it up, but some folks can prefer simpler casting systems over learning how the new one works. Overly simplified the spellpoint system works like psionics with power points and many folks do not like psionics because how they work differently.

For what it is worth, I think a starting level of 18-21 would be best, so we are closer to actually getting to try out the Immortals Handbook material. I am unfamiliar with spell points, so I have no particular opinion on those, other than that it will require learning a slightly different subsystem. And I think we should be okay to use prestige classes on both sides of the build, though I am not so keen on using dual advancing classes such as Mystic Theurges etc.

I'm not overly a fan of dual advancing classes when using gestalt classes, either.  It's one of the few things that gets called as recommended for a GM to prohibit.  That and advancing more than one PrC at a time.

We're already talking about starting at epic, dual advancing PrCs, and triple gestalts.  I imagine we're going to start hearing about LA buyoff and having racial HD applying to only one side of the gestalt pretty soon.

Should it come up (as it almost inevitably does in this sort of game), I'm pretty much a "no" on racial HD converting automatically to class levels on one side of the gestalt unless one is taking the racial class from SS as their class on one side of the gestalt and that all the way through before switching to another class.  On rolling level adjustment into one side so we can all have a circus of templates, I'm a hard "no", though buying off is far more agreeable if they're added after all your racial HD and class levels, going staight to the ECL bottom line.  I know that may put a dent in some of the PC concepts being discussed, but template stacking gets ridiculous.

As for casting systems, stock Vancian, Recharge, or Points all work fine by me, they all get a "yes".  They all work more or less well.  Psionics can be fun too, though it can be damn fiddly when puzzling out your augments.

Edit:
In the end, I'd rather hear us talking about starting ECL, rather than level, because not all contributors to ECL are equal.  It lets folks who love their monster races bring in SS to have them, as well as those who love +X LA templates to have them, too, but in the way the rules are written.  It also makes space for saying "LA +< X" + so many levels for all.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:11, Sun 09 Oct 2022.

In my end I think racial HD and LA aren't superior to class levels so the extent that they should drop your overall class levels. For example vampire is +8 LA and if we start at 21 level/ECL and +8 LA is taken off both sides of gestalt, the said vampire never sees epic play or gets use the immortal handbook entire career of the game. More so other players would outperform the vampire in every way as possible. Also, LA buy off would not fix much either as it by 21th ECL he cannot buy any of his LA off (not until much higher epic levels anyway).

If you want limit 'template insanity' just rule you cannot have more than one inherited and one acquired template (like half-dragon vampire is possible but not half-dragon phrenic werewolf ghost). The monsters and racial HD+LA associated with them should be able to put one side of gestalt as well.

Of course, some races are stronger than others, like raksasha vs ogre magi, but they do so with the extent of having fewer class levels on another side of the gestalt and most likely stick to more monster PrC's. Same goes for LA (at least ones where buy off is not possible).

But considering everyone's sheets will be able viewed and know the exact build someone goes for, then we can police for any 'broken' combos or silly stuff which we feel does not fit the game or breaks the game too much besides the rules listed.

They may or may not be more powerful.  Savage Species provides rules exactly for the purpose of having a monster class.  It fits right in with gestalt.  LA in no way does.

Right out of the SRD, "To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character."

I may get outvoted on this topic, but rolling it into one side of the gestalt gets a "no vote" from me, though in that case buy off is a fair alternative for those wishing to have templates.  If the vote is to roll it into one side of the gestalt, then I'm a staunch "no" on buyoff.  Again, the possible, eventual vote may go that way.  Honestly, have we even settled the question of gestalt or no?

That raises another question that needs to be decided on. Will monster races be in play? A gestalt game where one character is double classed, while another is a monster like a Ghaele and the other side a character class will have two fairly different power levels. Monster classed gestalts tend to be significantly more powerful, as they are less limited by the action economy limitations of a standard gestalt character, getting a bunch of static improvements instead.

In reply to Paradox (msg # 55):

On my end, I am just going to be illumian (a +0 LA base race) with lich template. Which if we go 21 levels/ECL I get it automatically without needing LA or buying phylactery as the level 20 dread necromancer feature. Not sure of others do they go monster but if nobody goes monster then even asking questions should monster LA/HD take both sides of gestalt or one side is a moot point.

But I do agree monsters and templates add more statical benefits than taking class levels as even if you gestalt multiple casting classes, your still limited by action economy. Whereas monsters and powerful templates give hefty stat bonuses. But overall I would be fine using savage species monster progression (as it makes math easier to do for gestalt as monsters as well).

An interesting read on DN20, Hathra.  As written it turns you undead with all that entails, but it's not explicitly calling for the addition of the Lich template specifically.  Narrator V might be flexible on that, though.

Yeah, in level 20 I simply become a lich without LA involved basically and needing invest money to phylactery. This sort makes sense as over course of the class the dread necromancer had become more and more undead-like (so sort of building a path to lichdom since level 1). Some features gained no longer work because dread necromancer becomes fully undead at level 20.

Huh...Learn something new everyday!  Looks like an OK option.  You sent me down a forum hole with that one.  Lots of argument, but they never seem to come to agreement.  Hopefully that turns your way, Hathra.

On a different note, what are we thinking about for starting abilities?  Roll or point buy?  If roll, what method?  If points, how many?  32?

I am fine with point buy but also rolling (or rather rolling is default but can fall back to use point buy if not dice result).

Dice roll wise could go 4d6 (drop lowest) six times (two sets, able to swap one roll between sets). Or 6+2d6.

I was planning to be Human but I may amend that slightly to Aventi so that I can have a racial swim speed (whch gives advantages to both Legendary Captain and Horizon Walker) and breathe underwater.  Like Illumians, Aventi are LA+0 (in fact they are human as far as effects that work only on humans are concerned).

Obviously, I will consider changing Haakon's name if I end up as an Aventi.

In reply to Haakon (msg # 61):

Aventi will be an interesting choice there, also thematic for your concept :)

Maynitra is drow, so the conversation around LA + buyoff is quite relevant for me. I'd argue that if we don't allow buyoff then LA+rHD should be applied to one side, and vice versa -- if we apply LA+rHD to both sides then we should definitely allow buyoff. I must admit that it's not entirely clear to me how it would work if we applied both, so I'm fine with either one or the other.

Having said all that, LA+2 is not really a game-changer when it comes down to it....

We're going to know one another well enough that I wonder if it makes sense for us to make a first stab at character sheets in a thread somewhere and show each other where we're going.  So, should we say
Gestalt
Level 20
maximum HP for first level and roll thereafter
'Monster levels' on one side of the gestalt
Was there anything else?

Well anyone want to talk about banning a class/feat/book?

Also need to discus PB and if so how much or dice and if so what rules.

Oh, and for RHD and LA - should be on one side as that is how the Monster Classes - they literally have the LA inside the class. Right now trying to find a list of all of the Monster classes that were published in not just SS, but DR and other sourcebooks.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:47, Sun 09 Oct 2022.

The most comprehensive source of monster racial classes I have seen is by a person called Osclecamo. The link is here, for those who might want to check it out for possible use, if it is an allowed source. It is of course homebrew, but widely used.

https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0

I'd prefer PB rather than leave a character's entire being to the whims of RPOL's random number generator. That said, if players want to gamble, how about a choice of: a) 8*6d6 and choose the best 6 and the highest 3 from those rolls; or b) 3d6 ordered however bit with some kind of reward for b) and the opposite for a)?

In reply to Haakon (msg # 67):

I think my preference would be a 40pt buy (or even a 36 pt buy).

I am fine with 36-40 PB stat generation.

Heh.  Since we seem to be aiming for silly optimized power builds anyway, how about best-of methods?  Public rolls via the dice roller: 3d6+6, drop the lowest. Eight rolls and take the best six.  Arrange to suit.  Compare that to the proposed 40 pt buy and take the best result or the two?

I recently played Esoteric Enterprises, a game in which players are rewarded for taking the most badass character creation methods possible.  I've enjoyed playing with a character created using 3d6 to roll each stat and then choosing where to put the dice but there's a step further, whch would be roll each ability stat in order on 3d6 and take what comes.

I'm thinking of having a look at what happens when I try to build a 20th level character rolled like that.

In reply to Haakon (msg # 71):

That sounds both very cool and very different from what we're doing here. I'd definitely be down to try that in a different context.

And here's what I rolled so yeah, I'm going to see how it works out.

19:27, Today: Haakon rolled 8 using 3d6.  Badass rolling STR.
19:27, Today: Haakon rolled 15 using 3d6.  Badass Rolling Dex.
19:27, Today: Haakon rolled 15 using 3d6.  Badass Rolling Con.
19:28, Today: Haakon rolled 13 using 3d6.  Badass Rolling Int.
19:28, Today: Haakon rolled 8 using 3d6.  Badass Rolling Wis.
19:28, Today: Haakon rolled 4 using 3d6.  Badass Rolling Cha.

I may have to change things about somewhat but let's see what kind of level 20 Aventi Sailor comes out of that.

Might take me a couple of days to make it the best he can be

That's pretty much 1st ed DnD, there.  Roll your dice and live with the suck or awesome that results.  I've run a few games with True20/Blue Rose which does straight to allocating modifiers, so no 18 STR, just +4.  PCs start with a +0 in any given score then mark them up from the pool of modifiers available.Up to the GM should one want to allow negative spending or to set a maximum beginning modifier.

If you go to ironman mode for stats (just pure 3d6 roll, and name what you roll for), you should reward an additional feat or two which you can take besides regular progression/class-provided ones. At least give a bit of incentive and a silver lining in case stats do not align with what you roll.

Albeit even with incentive I unlikely would accept pure 3d6 rolls but for fun, I roll what I get.

22:46, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 11 using 3d6.  Str.
22:47, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 14 using 3d6.  Dex.
22:47, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 16 using 3d6.  Con.
22:47, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 10 using 3d6.  Int.
22:47, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 10 using 3d6.  Wis.
22:47, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 15 using 3d6.  Cha.

Pretty fun stats, if play in 1st level venture could play as an archer or charisma-based caster.

To be honest, the build I'm using already has 12 feats including bonuses from Scout (3) Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse at level 1) and Legendary Captain (Great Captain at level 1) as well as the normal ones for levels 1,3,6,9,12,15 and 18

Just to say I am still here but have no idea what going on and what been agreed with character creation.

Once I know what has been agree I happy to start.

Boss is coming back when he's up to it and I for one think it would be nice if we could present him with completed characters.

I think the idea was 40 point buy.
Gestalt characters
There's some advantage for non-magic using characters but I can't remember what it was (Anybody?)
I'm working on an Aventi gestalt with Scout 12/Horizon Walker 8 on one side and Swashbuckler 11/Legendary Captain on the other.
Those who are taking monster races with LA higher than zero should include the monster levels on one side of their gestalt.

We know one another and we've been working together as part of the Crucible for some time now.

Right now:

Level 18
Gestalt
Dual Casting Progression PrCs are allowed as long as you can enter it from one side only and limited to only progressing such a class on that side.
Have pretty much said ok to progressing PrC on both sides.

If you want to chime on on any of those - Brookdale, go ahead. The last one is pretty squishy and if you feel strongly about it a good argument might change that.

Now discussing Stat Generation and RHD/LA. If you have any strong feelings on those - a Point Buy amount / Rolling arrangement - etc, and if you think LA should be on both sides, one side, etc for any monster races.

Some level suggestions have been 18-21 but we could build for 18th level first to see how they come out. In such a case, I would have a lich template on one side of gestalt. If 20 or above then would not have LA from lich thanks dread necromancer 20 level feature.

You could just go Necro and then convert over at 20? a LA +4 is a tough thing. Particularly if you are going DN // Wiz/Cleric/True Necro and take the hit on the multiclass side.

Actually, just thought of this - how are we with using Regional Feats limiting them to first level feat choice?
This message was last edited by the player at 22:20, Mon 10 Oct 2022.

Well, I want to play lich necromancer, and I intend to have dread necromancer in either case. I planned to take the lich side on dread necromancer side and if we started on 18th, then by the time I reach 20th level as dread necromancer my lich LA disappears as a class gives it free without LA involved (and thus I suffer only temporal nerf in power in dread necromancer side).

As I do want to play lich none the less whether it's at starting at 20th or 18th level.

OK.  Thanks.

So I could go at 18th.

Race: Elf
Class:-
Druid  11th / Oozemaster 7th.
Wizard 5th / Rouge 3rd / Arcane trickster 10th.

Note:- GM agreed I can have an Oozemaster.


This message was last edited by the player at 21:54, Sun 09 July 2023.

In reply to Primuson (msg # 81):

Regional feats won't apply, as we're not using a campaign setting, but a homebrew. Just ignore regional stuff, Faerun, Ebberon, or Greyhawk; none will apply.

ECL: 18 - 20.  We seem to still have some variation here.
Stat Generation: 40 pt buy.  Does anyone want that as a backup to public die rolls?
Dual-siding you PrCs: fine.
Dual-Caster PrC: Still a no, for me.  What's for the non-casting classes that's vaguely equivalent?
LA 1-vs-2 sides: If both sides, meaning it applies to ECL, then buy off OK.  If one side, then no buy-off.

Rather than trying to decide which books we want to include, it might be easier to exclude the ones we don't want.  We have a short list of things that's out already.  Is there any other book anyone really votes "no" on?

For martial classes, any class which gives full BAB-progression and sneak attacks or classes that 'count as figther' and combine other classes. Same for monk PrC's which progress monk stuff example which may ask other class levels. Besides cleric or arcane hybrids for monks, there are also Arcane Archer PrC which demands casting ability but PrC does not give anything to progress the casting of the class (only make ranged attacks better).

Re: Books ... I've been thinking about our city in the context of epic magics, so reading the rules on creation of a mythal from Lost Empires of Faerun.  As such, I'm thinking quite strongly about steering my eventual PC in the direction of their creation.  Does that cause anyone here any heartburn, such that we'd need to exclude that book.  Thanks!

Edit:
Also, have we decided about adding bonus feats of Leadership and/or Landlord?  Both of those seemed popular while discussing earlier.  Given the DCs to create a mythal, these would factor greatly into design of the PC.

2nd edit:
And starting money for our PCs?
This message was last edited by the player at 23:33, Mon 10 Oct 2022.

In reply to phorcys (msg # 85):

A full voting ballot should be coming along shortly -- it'll help solidify all of the details of the choices we're making.

In reply to phorcys (msg # 87):

While I'm fine with establishing something like this through play, I personally would like to start without Epic Level Spells/Magic. It just adds a whole new level of work -- for us, but especially the DM. I'd prefer if we unlock Epic as we also unlock the Immortals Handbook.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 89):

As would I, Maynitra.  Honestly, I was aiming for a lower starting level, so didn't think we'd get close, but if we're starting in the 18-20 range, well, a fella can't help but dream.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:47, Mon 10 Oct 2022.

I highly suggest people take Epic Spellcasting later than 21st anyway. I LOVE Mythals, personally! I also know that the more we take on, at start, the more likely I'll be overwhelmed. Thus the more likely the game will die.

Okay at 18...
Side One:   Swashbuckler 9/ Legendary Captain 9
Side Two:   Scout 12/Horizon Walker 6

And much as it might be fun to go ironman, I think I'll save it for another time.  This time, as is clear from my sheet so far, I decided to go for Point Buy 40.

I'd be grateful if somebody would have a look at my sheet and in particular, check my sums when it comes to adding up how many skill points I've used.

Now as question of bit aging shehanigans as caster who became a lich. When your body ages, you suffer penalties to physical stats and gain bonus to mental. If you become undead you cease both gaining or suffering aging penalties.

As part of becoming a lich you have to die but the method of dying can be anything from suicide to dying in old age.

Now, if you have known the Clone spell before reaching middle age and created a clone of your younger self which was never used when you die and become a lich; can you possess your clone body as a lich and use your 'younger body' physical stats but retain the mental stats you had when you became a lich?

And henceforth whenever you die as a lich you always regenerate the clone body from the original body you have when becoming a lich or do you need a supply of cloned bodies? Or alternatively, kill himself before completing lich phylactery and thus gain a young body before completion, and then once completed he is thus animated and needs to die again to ensure he has a young body as a lich but the mental stats of a venerable member of his race?

Edit; Additional questions regarding Undead Mastery, Corpsecraft, and Undead Mastery do not stack (besides +2 additional HP), would others and GM be okay that instead wasting a feat to get access to feats that ask Corpsecraft feat as qualification, instead allowing count Undead Mastery to be same as already having the feat and thus able take feats which ask Corpsecrafter as a requirement?

Also, if have Undead Mastery(or Corpsecraft), when you become a lich, do you gain the benefit of either of those features as a lich? Meaning you are creating undead after all (as yourself)?
This message was last edited by the player at 13:02, Tue 11 Oct 2022.

I think the key word in all of that about something-for-nothing is "shenanigans". :)

For the record.

It is my understanding that Maynitra was part of the first group of adventures that played in this game.  Both from her posts and 300 posts listed by her character.

I do not have an issues with her starting +3 or +4 levels above the rest of us.  In fact I think she should get these extra levels in respect to the players loyalty to the game.  It will put her closer to what she had before and few extra levels are not going to hurt the others.

What do you other think?  I think she deserve it...

Sounds fine by me.

In reply to Brookdale Moongazer (msg # 97):

I would not have problem with such reward granted to loyal player.



Well, playing a caster is already mischief at the levels we play at anyways. The question is to what extent said shenanigans are allowed/approved from doing and thus why I am asking about it. ofc the easiest method is simply dying and having reincarnate cast on you but it's a race lottery at that point so trying to think of alternatives to do it. Clone spell is not part of dread necromancer's normal spell list but can learn it via advanced learning.

So would sacrifice one bigger necromancy spells known, for a spell that my char used while alive, to avoid aging penalties to physical attributes being there as he becomes lich (and was perhaps backup in case his plan fails to become a lich).
This message was last edited by the player at 20:42, Tue 11 Oct 2022.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 95):

So, here's my thinking on this:

1. You make a clone, and somehow keep it in suspended animation (assuming something like temporal stasis that you plan to dispel when you need a new body). You use magic jar (or similar) spell -- your soul moves from lich body to magic jar crystal/gem. Strictly speaking, that's your body, so at that moment the spell ends. So either your soul remains in that body, and you're no longer a lich, or your soul is shunted back to your lich body/phylactery and your clone immediately dies. Also note that even if this works, it's limited to a base of 1 hour/level (magic jar) and costs at least 6,000gp per attempt (for the clone and stasis), plus another 600gp in foci.


2. I don't think that you could make a living clone from your original body once you're a lich. Again, by the wording of the spell, if it did work your soul would be transferred into the clone, and then you'd no longer be a lich.

3. For the clone yourself, kill yourself for younger body, then become a lich, you'd have to complete the process within 2d4 months -- once the clone is complete, there's no automatic transfer. Therefore you'd have to use some other method to move your soul over (like magic jar). Note that this would also involve a loss of level from being resurrected (effectively).

4. I am not familiar enough to posit about Undead Mastery vs. Corpsecraft; instead, I'd simply say that discretion is probably the better part of valor on much of this stuff. (In other words, try to stay reasonable.)

In reply to Brookdale Moongazer (msg # 97):

I have been around a long time. I appreciate the sentiment, and I'm perfectly fine playing by the same rules as everyone else.

With the clone, there is the idea the body is suspended animation since char was like before the middle ages (meaning he had used a scroll to create the clone and then suspend animated it because this was early on Hathra's career).

According to the Clone spell when you die, your soul jumps to a clone body, and your all-purpose wise alive once again. However, the body is the same as the moment it was created (thanks to suspended animation).

True there would be level loss in the process, but you could have stored XP in the thought bottle to 'restore' the lost level (prepared in advance and having stored XP to it to return back to whichever level you want to return to).

Undead Mastery/Corpsecrafter applying to yourself turns yourself into a lich and would mostly be permanent +4 enchantment bonus to Str and Dex and +2 HP per HD (the enchantment bonus does not stack with anything but HP bonus does). Which again asks for more player/GM approval on whether allow it or not.

At this level, hit points mean little.  Saves, resistances, immunities, and, perhaps most importantly initiative rule rule day, at least as far as combat encounters go.  Combats seem either to go for one tiny fraction of a melee round or to last an eternity with very little in-between. :)

40 extra HP?  A maximized, empowered, twinned, split ray of nastiness usually wins.  Repeat spell for the same the next round.  Yes, it takes a bucket of metamagic reducers to make that happen, but it's really not that tough.

Hathra, I figured you'd be heading for Black Lore of Moil and Fell Drain with all of that above and Enervation.  On average rolls, you'll kill a 20-21 level PC with a ranged touch attack and no save if you can beat it's SR.  Assuming you're the run-of-the-mill Dread Necromancer, the following round the newly dead thing will get up as some sort of undead at your command.  What's 40 hit points? :)

Fair -- although he'd also need a scroll of temporal stasis or imprisonment or something, as the clone spell doesn't keep the body from aging. (See https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm: "A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved. ")


Unfortunately this is not the case. As per the spell, "When the clone is completed, the original’s soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead." In other words, when the duplicate is fully grown (after 2d4 months), the soul transfers immediately. If it doesn't happen then, it doesn't happen at all... as suggested by the quote I used previously.

I wasn't familiar with the thought bottle before now. Holy shit that item is absolutely and completely broken as written. No, really -- whoever created that item should be ashamed, as should whoever approved its addition into Complete Arcane.



Ok, so having read up on Undead Mastery (Dread Necromancer ability) and Corpsecrafter, I'd personally say that Corpsecrafter definitively does not apply to your lich transformation; that feat specifically says "necromancy spell" -- and your lich transformation is either a process (applied template) or a class ability (Dread Necromancer Capstone). Undead mastery is less clear, but unlikely based on the way it's written. Functionally, however, I'm not sure it makes a great deal of difference, to be honest; I wouldn't be severely put out if both applied. (The thought bottle, however, is bullshit.)

By the way, I do wonder about the Dread Necromancer Capstone -- it doesn't appear to actually give the lich template? There are definitely some description oddities about it that should probably be reviewed by V.

You want the Stasis Clone spell from Lords of Darkness. Manshoon used it to create several dozen clones of himself so when he was killed he would return again. A lich lite type of immortality. It is a Necromancy 9 spell. Works as Clone, but puts them into a stasis state immediately.

That was the cause of the Manshoon Wars - Manshoon was killed, and someone sabotaged his stasis clones causing all of them to awaken at the same time each of them believing themselves to be the one true Manshoon. So, they burned through several decades of a near epic wizard's resources trying to kill each other with only three surviving.

Just to chip in, I think both the thought bottle and item familiars should be banned, as ways of getting free xp beyond what everyone else has.

Item familiar does sound interesting, but yes, bonus XP does seem a bit excessive.  Maybe as a source of crafting points or just know that power out of it entirely?

But also in clone spell last line goes;



It does not say the spell fails if the clone is created while someone is alive, merely that the body starts rotting immediately if there is no available soul. But the Stasis Clone spell may be the easiest solution here. Assuming the character early on his career got hands on a scroll and used it successfully (plus material components).

I am not against banning item familiar or thought bottle, as indeed thought bottle is bonkers when abused. I would have only used it to negate a level loss than generate infinite XP from it.

Also regarding reservation bombardment tactics, I did plan to be capable caster and necromancer but there are always counters for such nuke tactics and no doubt foes who are well aware of my abilities will prepare to face them accordingly.

I think I'm done apart from buying stuff.  The question now is what kind of ship do I need?  I'm thinking Caravel because that got Columbus across the Atlantic so it seems fine to me.

I've got to admit, I haven't been following this very closely. Was the idea to have one character of each alignment abandoned? If so, that's fine. If not, Leife will need to know what alignment is left. Leife was going to be non-good, but she's (the player's) willing to adjust to be the remaining alignment.

I think one alignment for each member of Crucible sounds cool concept and we can try to make it work. But as cleric, I am limited in what alignments I can use. Either Lawful neutral (which is already chosen) or Lawful Evil.

I don't want to be evil but happy with Good or Neutral if anybody else wants any of the spots.  I've a leaning toward Chaotic as a player but for Ghanek, that means more that his code of conduct is not necessarily anybody else's.  I'd like to play Chaotic Good but not wedded to it if anybody else wants it.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 110):

I'd personally rather not do the "one of each alignment" thing. Besides, I'm not sure it's necessary?

It's probably not necessary, but we need something to bind us together in the crucible despite Hathra and I possibly being of Opposite alignments.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 113):

Agreed.  Build our PCs based on the rules once they settle and I think that'll settle the "flavor" of the party as a whole and how we best work together and each contribute.

Re: Wee Jas, isn't she LN, so true neutral ought to be an option as well.  Yes?

Hmm.  Wee Jas doesn't mind you creating undead, but I can't see her taking deathbound as one of her domains.  It doesn't fit her personality... but if you can find a legalistic rationale to persuade her that it fits in with her way of doing things, then she'd find a way.  I've seen lawyer as 'character class' in PF2 but I don't know whether they exist in 3.5.  You probably need a good one.

Why worry about a deity at all?  From the SRD entry for the cleric class ...

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Just pick Deathbound as one of your two and go on.

Edit:  Hell, maybe that's why Hathra is a lich in the end.  If he's Faerunian, maybe he's avoiding becoming part of the Wall of the Faithless.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:03, Wed 12 Oct 2022.

Eeurgh!  I had never heard of that although I've a feeling I've read something about a prison made from the bodies of prisoners.  I think it might have been Kafka.

Being False or Faithless in Faerun is not a good thing. Torture for eternity or being put in a wall to slowly be subsumed by said wall was your normal fate under Myrkul and Cyric. I think maybe Jergal too. Kelemovr you don't have it much better.

If you feel the need for a patron - Velsharoon, Nerull, or Myrkul might be better. In fact if Velsharoon exists he would be a great target for any usurping attempts you might want to make.

Yeah, but any necromancy spells that animate dead are considered evil spells, so alignment change is inevitable and it's sort design flaw by 3.5 edition team that they give neutral deities access to domains that contain evil spells (same for good-aligned deities access to death domain as clerics are forbidden casting spells of opposite alignment spectrum).

So easier start evil than slide into there. But true that instead deity I could go the philosophical route and not follow god at all, but thought Wee Jas as 'cool deity' which rarely get picked/used cause Pelor got more recognition/love in prestige classes wise (or overall deity being used).

Ofc besides being philosophical could use a feat; Heretic of the Faith

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/fea...ith--1379/index.html

Albeit to avoid possible deity snuffing and taking away divine powers Hathra could just be a philosophical cleric and take whatever domains he wants.

*reads death devotion*

Oh, I definitely pick this one...need a death domain anyway for a true necromancer PrC but death devotion definitely fits the bill for a true necromancer as well. Free wights! Well, need to convince them to work for me or slap with either rebuke undead or command undead to obey me besides diplomacy.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:41, Wed 12 Oct 2022.

Aaargh! I lost Internet connection and lost this morning's work on upgrading my ship and buying cool magic.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 121):

That seriously sucks :(

Oh my, I just had a first go at calculating my Leadership level and it was off the scale.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 123):

I recall there are guidelines on how it works past scale and if not find any, use the epic leadership scale as a guideline.

Ahh... right, thanks.

NOPE - The Epic Leadership feat specifically says that there is no beneft for leadershi scores above 25 at non epic levels (and I need to have an actual CHA of 25+ to get that - got a long way to go)
This message was last edited by the player at 14:30, Thu 13 Oct 2022.

Aha, so no point have leadership score past 25 then, not until 21 level when you can earliest get the epic leadership.

I think I may also have overinvested in Profession (sailor) and from a rules point of view you may be right, but from the point of view of one's legend, well... why not.

Nothing wrong invest to leadership, as you later can get epic leadership and then get more full benefit of it :)

Also overinvesting in profession skills may pay off if face extreme circumstances where you get a penalty for all skills. Also, there are epic-level skill checks. Also could enter Exemplar PrC and use profession sailor qualify where you get use profession: Sailor to do other stuff with it besides normal checks.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:02, Thu 13 Oct 2022.

For those building PCs before creation rules are settled, which ability score generation method are you using?

In reply to phorcys (msg # 129):

I used 40 point buy as a base.

I'm using 40 point buy

I did go through your skills by the way - they add up and yeah you have Sailor and Swim at 21 ranks - and something like 29 or so Leadership.

So for your ship - are you keeping it strictly seagoing or adding more exotic locomotion to it?

It's strictly seagoing but some of the seas in question are on other planes.

How did the party come down on traits and/or flaws?  There may have been discussion, but I don't remember seeing it.

I like traits and flaws printed in UA. Traits I'm giving a yes to, with a very few exceptions. Flaws I'll leave to you all to decide.

Traits almost need to be there for any skill deviation, and without a DM that is very conscientious about circumstance bonuses or penalties (I'm better than most, but still mediocre), you lose the specialty of skills. I like creative outlets, and character to dry skills. I'm not the DM that allows a lot of ad hoc rules, but I love traits to help mitigate the homogeneity of ranks in skills, or other stats.

Flaws should only be taken for less crucial feats. Please don't use flaws as a feat foundation. Use it to get feats you otherwise couldn't justify; like voice the mage, or ears of the mage, or any of that issue of Dragon "...of the mage" feats. Also feats that are useless, but needed for prereqs are good for using flaws.

I also like flaws in play.

If you all allow flaws, I'll veto feat choices that seem optimized. I'll also limit it to the RAW two flaws per character.

Ok, two flaws max but not key/crucial but more 'flavored' feats.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 136):

Or dump feats. Let's face it (or agree to the fact many agree) some feats as prerequisites are never used as the feat itself. Blood Magus is a good example. Not that Blood Magus is a great PrC. Other examples are those that want skill focus in something like craft. Others might be for feats that could be useful, but really your character isn't primed to use. Skill Focus (Handle Animal) might be useful in some scenario, but it might literally only be for your character to get Beastlord's first level, and you have skill bonuses from extraneous non-rank non-feat bonuses to make the check on a natural 1. Were this an 8th level game with a character with a nasty -4 companion, this ruling would probably not look at Skill Focus (Handle Animal;) the same, as it's useful even if not optimized.

I'm talking more about toughness, and combat casting those. Feats designed to be bad choices, as quoted to be there "so players can make bad choices" it's a WotC hallmark.

Flaw in trade for Skill Focus (basketweaving) as a prerequisite. :)

Ok, so can use flaws for pre-requisite feats which are not 'dump picks' normally. But as discussion for others to ponder as it came up in GM question part; would other players be okay with ruling which allows bypass a feat pre-requisite (by having a feat), by having a class feature which mimics a feat (or very closely mimic it).

Example here being Swashbuckler dodge bonus be considered same as having taken Dodge feat example and be able take mobility feat without needing to take dodge feat.

This above relates to my Undead Mastery class feature allow take feats which require to have Corpsecrafter feat, which would be repundant/useless to take as it does not stack with class feature. But GM wants make universal ruling which applies to all similar cases and it needs other players opinion on it whether allow it or not.

The dodge bonus is stackable with dodge so it's really not a dump feat since it allows me to have a +2 dodge bonus against one opponent or +1 against 2.

Yeah, it stacks. But as mentioned; similar or near similar class feature which works like a feat which is pre-requisite for another feat. Nay or yay for idea allowing qualify for feats with class features which mimics a feat which may or may not be repundant.

As off hand I do not remember is there similar cases by a PrC or class like undead mastery but GM wants make universal ruling about it than just grandfather one specific case.

On this most recent topic, I did say two things. First, I haven't made my decision. Second, I'm inclined to say yes if players (the rest of you, or at least majority) don't mind. This could lead to a player having a hedge case. I don't know of one, but I recognize it could occur and want that leniency to not only be recognized by you all, but also that you be aware and not have to i>know</I> to ask. I cited an example ( I think I did?) of having Improved Toughness to replace Toughness. Improved Toughness is essentially what toughness should be, (at least). I haven't decided, but I certainly will be swayed based on the opinion of others. If you think you would benefit from this, feel free to ask in the thread about what concession you'd like. If you feel like this would penalize you for not being able to benefit proportionately, and would like Hathra to just eat a feat (or a flaw) then you are certainly welcome to say something to that affect, though admittedly less blunt.

D&D is full of these cracks, and I'm not interested in homebrewing beyond a point I need to remember the number of home rules I've enacted. I embrace the system with the flaws. I'm also fine to admit some can be patched here and there. Patch was an unintended word choice, but I think apt.

Okay, looking through the PRCs in the SRD, I'd say that...

PRC               Necessary Feats           Unnecessary Feats
Arcane Archer     Point Blank Shot          Weapon Focus (Longbow or Shortbow)
                  Precise Shot
Arcane Trickster  None                      None (But what about the skill, Decipher Script?)
Archmage          None                      Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Skill Focus in two schools
Assassin          None                      None (But could a flaw be used to avoid having to kill someone just to get in?)
Blackguard        Cleave, Improved Sunder   Power Attack (except that it's needed for both necessary feats)
Dragon Disciple   None                      None (But what about Skill Knowledge(Arcana)?)
Eldritch Knight   None                      None
Hierophant        None                      Any Metamagic Feat
Horizon Walker    None                      Endurance
Loremaster        *                         *
Mystic Theurge    +                         +
Shadowdancer      None                      Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility (Especially Dodge which is only there as a prerequisite for Mobility)
Thaumaturgist     None                      Spell focus (Conjuration)

*                 I'd like to completely rewrite this PRC and make it about pure knowledge rather than magic
+                 This is completely useless in a Gestalt campaign

Have I forgotten anything?

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 143):

Well, depending on how votes go, in dual casting PrC's one side the mystic theurge can work for those who want to combine arcane and divine. True Necromancer finishes on 20th level and you could continue the progression of the cleric and wizard by taking mystic theurge levels.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 142):

As of yet it does not make a difference to me, as I haven't started rebuilding Maynitra yet. Right now I'm leaning toward Focused Abjurer/Master Specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil on her primary side (perhaps expanding into Abjurant Champion, depending on starting level and what the secondary side ends up with).

For the other side, I'm contemplating Drow/Duskblade/Abjurant Champion, but toying with Drow/Beguiler/Mindbender, Drow/Cloistered Cleric/Drow Paragon, or even Drow/Beguiler/Mindbender/Cloistered Cleric/Drow Paragon/Mystic Theurge! (I'm not really serious about that last one... although... hmm.)

Originally she possessed a major Devil bloodline; however, it's not entirely clear to me how that would work in gestalt. If she could take it on one side, those levels would definitely be paired with her Drow Level Adjustment. Otherwise I could either move up to full half-fiend or drop it completely; I don't think it would really be worth losing both sides for it.

I'm also very much open to suggestions!

Well, bloodline levels would be levels that do stack for CL purposes (or class-level-related benefits) but nothing much else. So bloodline levels aren't LA directly (and gain minor bonuses and extra feats). While another hand if you take half-fiend you get much more benefits than the bloodline provides but lose 4 levels on one side.

In my own suggestion warlock levels would be quite a thematic choice (in side which presents your fiendish side even) and can enter mindbender as a warlock (just need to take Charm invocation to qualify).

But as a reminder even if you can cast spells as duskblade in armor, the same does not apply to wizard spells. So Abjurant Champion on another side would help mitigate that a lot. Even if you did not enter Abjurant Champion as a wizard, the PrC benefits universally apply to all arcane spells of abjuration school.

Also Abjurant Champion has a bit bug on it; Abjurant Armor mentions shield or AC bonus provided by abjuration spells but mage armor (the classic spell for abjurant champion) is not abjuration but a conjuration spell (the example NPC has abjurant armor bonus applied to its mage armor spell and it's referred class fluff IC text that they depend on mage armor for protection). I usually fix that by just allowing feature work with mage armor as off hand I did not find any abjuration spells which granted AC bonus. Luminous armor (from exalted deeds) is much more bonkers broken than mage armor.

Anyways, cloistered cleric+drow paragon is also a strong combo. If want could get cloistered cleric+drow paragon+warlock+eldricth discipline (combine divine and warlock magic, eldritch discipline has a nice capstone ability to stop your aging altogether and thus provide immortality). As some warlock invocations can be pretty damn useful (not mention eldricth blast reliable offensive magical offense even if run out spells completely if able to bolster CL high enough to bypass SR or ignore it outright with specific eldricth essence invocation).

I've been considering some flavor of loremaster/archivist/bard/.... someone who has nurtured the great library of Ivost and preserves the records of the ages. (And may or may not be a spymaster and keeper of secrets on the side.)

I really enjoyed reading through Oslecamo's Illurien for early inspiration (a secret-keeper whose library in Ivost has planar portals and is open to the PCs) but it is not balanced.

https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1838.0

In reply to Narya (msg # 147):

A loremaster-type character who is secretly spymaster would be awesome sounding concept :). My own approach would be;

Bardic approach;
Bard 7/Loremaster 10/Sublime Chord 1+

Archivist approach;
Archivist 15/Paragnostic Apostle 3+

The other side is either magic or skill focused;

Magic; Beguiler 18+
Skill; Rogue 10+/Spymaster 7

However, for a sort of crazier build for a true master of disguises as a spy I would go for; firstly pick the changeling race, then take rogue (changeling ACF for it).

Then go to this build;

Changeling Rogue 6/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Spymaster or Shadowdancer 1+
(basically, mind reading spymaster who is a master of aliases/disguises and can do mind tricks in combat)

Or alternatively, if want 'mimic' class abilities while under disguise/infiltrator can go;

Changeling Rogue 5/Chameleon 10/Cabinet Trickster or Spymaster 3+

In reply to Narya (msg # 147):

Welcome, fellow Archivist!  Cyril will be one as well, though I'm debating on taking him to 20th level as that or not.  I'm thinking of some flavor of wizard on the other side, but still debating prestige classes and focus.  I'm considering maybe mixing Malconvoker and Thaumatugist.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 149):

Malconvoker+Thaumaturgist would be a very strong combination for summoner/conjurer build :). Perhaps the best one would be a wizard specialist with unearthed arcana alternative feature which allows cast summon monsters as a standard action.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 146):

The nice thing about bloodline levels is that they don't just stack for caster level, they add to  class levels to calculate anything that depends on them -- including (for example) Abjurant Armor. As you said, the number of spells that it would apply to is (regretfully) small, but there are some, and duskblade gets access to several. However, with 3 levels of bloodline and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, all of Maynitra's abjurations (which is her specialty) are automatically extended, and any that are 4th level or lower would be automatically quickened. At this level it's not as broken as it sounds -- I mean, they're abjurations -- but it's still a nice boost! I'd intended to ask if I could (basically) craft a version of mage armor specifically for Maynitra -- exact same spell, but Abjuration instead of Conjuration. And yeah, the BoED is very hit-or-miss across the board.

On the other hand, while I do also like the sound of the warlock + eldritch discipline, warlock requires either chaotic or evil alignment, and Maynitra is definitely lawful (not chaotic). I'm not sure I'm comfortable shifting her alignment to evil. How do y'all feel about removing that alignment restriction from warlock?

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 150):

Oh, if you're going summoning specialist rapid summons is *chef's kiss*. Enhanced summons is also very much worth it. Don't do spontaneous summons, though.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 151):

I am not against removing the alignment restriction from warlock or loosening it up. Albeit there is Enlightened Spirit prestige class which you could enter but said PrC does not progress warlock casting (but provides new invocations/abilities which are damn good). But it would limit your alignment to 'any good' instead.

But you could take 1 level in said PrC (gain some nice goodies doing so) and then enter eldricth disciple and progress warlock side 'legally good aligned' as eldricth discipline. The PrC does not forbid you to progress your warlock side after entering the PrC (albeit PrC is all about warlock redeeming itself and discarding its evil heritage).

I do agree on rapid summons and enhanced summons are very delicious for conjurer types :)

Also if we got a conjurer type who can 'bluff' demons/devils to work with us then we got literally besides military an undead horde and a horde of summons as well.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 153):

I'm really liking that eldritch disciple route; once we've settled on the basics of character creation (attribute generation and starting level) I think I might try it out.

Actually, if I go that route I'm thinking she'd be a cloistered cleric of Wee Jas. That could be something that Hathra and she have in common (even if Hathra simply reveres Wee Jas without being one of her clergy). Hathra would likely be more focused on the Death aspects, whereas Maynitra would be focused on the Law -- but they'd definitely find common ground. Currently thinking that Maynitra's focus would be on lawkeeping: establishing and maintaining guards/police/militia, as well as a functioning judiciary.

If someone else really had their heart set on that role, however, I'd be happy to choose something else.

It would be a neat connection between our chars, you follow aspects of law and magic while I embrace aspects of death. Albeit still on air am I Wee Jas cleric or will I be a philosophical cleric who reveres her (and other gods of death) in general.

You can as abjurer be easily excellent judge/police type force and establish security and law, whereas I can run mortuary/necropolis area but governing wise be a magister unless someone else covets said role. Or if no one runs university (magical more so), could Hathra be principle of said school of magic.

But these are musings atm until chargen settles and when GM decides is deathbound domain something that Wee Jas could have. As Wee Jas is not against raising undead; so long there is the lawful origin for the said act (she hates illegal methods like robbing crypts/graves from goods and bodies but if you have like via speak with the dead asked to consent or have ahead written consent of deceased use their bodies in necromancy she is fine with it). Some Wee Jas clergy is also undead naturally and had become ones as means of mastering lore and magic.

Yeah, the general fluff material for Wee Jas is pretty quiet on how she feels about undead.  Long ago in Living Greyhawk, she despised them.  IIRC, what's published on the topic has her really big on consent regarding from anyone being raised as undead and their remains being acquired in a lawful manner.  So, like the middle ages and dissection, it's likely volunteers and/or criminals.

Yeah, and if Hathra is Wee Jas cleric he would definitely have any undead only through volunteers or criminals converted into undead as 'penance' for their crimes. Likely if we go by the story I suggested that we took over the ruins of the city from dracolich which had undead minions, Hathra likely destroyed the undead after the battle.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 157):

Oh, I like that idea. Hell, half of the work would have been finding its phylactery after defeating it. I still think there should have been a living population present as well -- folks either working with/for the dragon (by choice or not), slaves, or captives -- that could become our initial population.

Maybe we *didn't* find it's phylactery and that remains a difficulty for the group to overcome.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 159):

Alternatively possible, that phylactery was not in the city and thus dracolich materialized anew somewhere in the world and is a threat and dracoliches can be vicious adversaries (more so when pissing one off and take over the city).

There could have been mortal followers of dracolich who got converted to population or undead as punishment for their crimes (war crimes likely as they were army raiding around other cities perhaps).

Also, possible battle captives/slaves were there and those became regular citizens (some of them while the rest wanted to go home).

Or it can be one great deeds party is known for defeating a dracolich, it would be a very epic milestone performed as a group and cement the idea we can cooperate very well together despite alignment/race differences. Perhaps the name 'crucible' comes from dracolich phylactery which was destroyed and became a trophy of the group.

Hathra: Corpsecrafter would still give you 2 hp/HD even if you don't get the strength.

I don't in general think we should get rid of the 'useless' feats as they are often flavor or yes a feat tax - this is usually for an unusually strong PrC anyways.

Maynitra - You said you are pretty firm on being Lawful right?

True, but otherwise useless.

Yes, quite.

Well, had two...actually three thoughts for you.

If you were still considering going Gish - Abjurer//Melee type of build and with a Drow Devil Bloodline you could go full Gonzo and just hit out for a nice Draegloth. Big departure, but funny thought of a Draegloth dual wielding greatswords while holding a wand in a third hand and casting a spell in the fourth.

If you like Warlock - there is a way around the evil/non lawful thing. A drow is not a great fit for it (Con is an important stat), and that is the oft forgotten Dragonfire Adept.

The reason I was asking about Lawful is that there is a CG god of abjurers and mythals in the Seldarine. This god is dying because they spent alot of their power in making mythals and in a last ditch effort to recover made a ring to regain their power. The ring was stolen though and their last avatar was stuck in the spot - so they have trouble rekindling their religion. So, thought maybe one of the last followers of this god, who is looking to make a mythal over a rising city and promote their god might also make a good concept. Also would give you a McGuffin - the ring to return it to their god and let them regain much of their power from it. Huh kind of a Sauron situation. Of course unless you are a cleric you don't need to match your deities alignment.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 164):

While interesting, Maynitra actually has a rather extensive backstory. Some of that will need to shift and change, of course, but it's as much about tracking with that as it is the actual crunch of the build.

I guess the other possibility would be to step away from this character and come up with something else... but that feels rather big.

I just realized something that regards your desire to be lawful neutral while being a warlock; in Complete Arcana nor in any future errata, is mentioned what it means to be ex-warlock. Meaning if you divert away from designated alignment being chaotic or any evil.

There are no downsides to changing your alignment as a warlock, it is not stated anywhere what happens when you change alignment. Alignment is only mentioned to be able to enter/start as a warlock.

As rules are written, if you differ from class alignment it will then separately tell punishments in doing so (like in the cases of monks and paladins), but warlock has no such details officially anywhere.

In most RAW terms you are unlikely can progress with the class if go by that limitation very least even if it's not mentioned (cannot progress as a lawful neutral person as warlock). But you don't lose your warlock abilities gained so far, like a monk. It does not stop you from qualifying for prestige classes later which ask warlock abilities, nor prestige classes which progress warlock abilities while having no alignment restrictions.

So you could write in the background you once in past were evil/chaotic, but later in life entered the life of a cleric and then combined your past and present together to become Eldritch Disciple. Whereas your only limitation is written by cleric class, but also one requirement for eldritch disciple is; Ability to turn or rebuke undead, and must worship a chaotic or evil deity.

So, if want to enter the eldritch theurge you need to decide what is more important to your char morale/personality; neutral vs evil, law vs chaos. I think you can play a harsh but fair judge as LE. While CN is more follower of their own defined rules/laws than bureaucratic or organization-established ones (and even then they are guidelines which can change on whim).

Either way, as a cleric you can be one step away from your deity in alignment so can still be cleric of Wee Jas as LE cleric.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:48, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 166):

Actually in reading over Mystic Theurge, that would also require choosing a deity that was either chaotic or evil -- of which Wee Jas is neither. While tweaking the alignment requirements for that would also be possible, it's feeling like a bigger and bigger ask, quite frankly.

Now, the overall result of Ballot at this moment is;

---

1. Starting Level
-21 (no epic spells), 3 voted
-18, 3 voted
-2 votes do not care and thus don't count in either direction

1a. Starting XP Total
-start at the midpoint for level, 4 voted (some suggesting additional XP which will be lost when not spent)
-Minimum level, 4 voted (some suggesting additional XP which will be lost when not spent)

2. Gestalt[list]
yes (all voted yes)

2a. If Yes, Dual Casting Progression
-only if single side qualified, 5 voted (one had none and yes if one side qualified here)
-None, 3 voted (one voted both above and this)

2b. If Yes, Multiclass Feats
-only if single side qualified, 6 voted
-any/yes, 2 voted

2c. If Yes, LA + monster HD take
-one side and no restrictions, 5 voted
-one side and class limited (via Savage Species racial levels), 3 voted

2d. LA buyback
-only if not gestalt, 5 voted
-no, 2 voted
-only if applied to ECL, thus effectively "both sides", 1 voted

2e. If Yes, Simultaneous Prestige classes[list]
-yes, 6 voted
-no, 1 voted
-neither, 1 voted

3. Spell-points
-no, 7 voted (some preferred recharge magic instead points)
-either, 1 voted

4. Determining Attributes
-40 point buy, 4 voted (split votes for rolling)
-roll 3d6 (drop lowest) and add 6 -- 8x drop lowest 2, arrange as desired, 2 voted (split votes for 40 point buy)
-roll 3d6 (drop lowest) and add 6 -- 8x drop lowest 2, arrange as desired, 40 pt if they suck, 1 voted

5. Hitpoints -- by RAW, first level is always max
-roll hit dice, 1 voted
-roll with minimum of 1/2 max + 1, 6 voted
-roll with minimum of 1/2 max, 1 voted

6. Starting Bonus Feats
-Leadership and Landlord feats, 5 voted
-any, 1 voted
-none, 2 voted

7. Starting Wealth/Resources
-personal wealth (by level) only, 3 voted
-personal wealth (by level) plus craft points, 4 voted
-personal Wealth (by level) Plus bonus cash to purchase/Craft consumables, 1 voted

---

These are not finalized, more update post what the ballot looks like atm. So far only unresolved/undecided are;

-Starting level (so far tie between 18 vs 21 levels with no epic spells)
-Starting XP (tie between minimum for a level or midpoint)

All rest have been 'resolved' unless people change their ballots now afterward. My own comments on both above ties;

Starting level: I lean to 21 starting level for two reasons; one being that I can reach 20th level as a dread necromancer and able to get a lich template without LA involved (GM already confirmed this is the ruling he goes by that feature). I have phylactery and follow otherwise all normal rules being a lich. Second, the 21 levels allow pick one epic feat and I think it can be a great addition to everyone (like getting epic leadership and getting followers past leadership score 25 if they so desire). Also, 21 level offers lots of gold which to spend around for yourself and possibly invest in our city without feeling like nerfing yourself. Can perhaps place an additional ruling that besides no epic spells, no epic items unless you can craft it.

From a roleplay perspective; Also being 21 sets our chars being 'epic entities' in setting and make us true shaker and shifters in the world in our respective fields with few to no equals. Also, 21 levels in gestalt mean you have likely completed any prestige classes or have completed 'basic pre-epic builds'.

Starting XP: My point of view, if we start at 21 and are half-way to 22 level, it means you have 5,512,500 XP (if my math did not fail me) to spend for any crafting, spells or other stuff. Now, someone who is not a spellcaster or crafter keeps this XP and is closer to level 22 (which is still far off).

While if the caster/crafter spends this XP they are behind the chars who did not craft or 'create' anything. Also, I think with the amount of XP given they can spend a lot and still have leftover casting XP-draining spells in future adventures/campaigns (like wish spells which are the norm in +20 play). But it comes to cost that they lag behind those who have no such expenses and may not get level while others do.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 167):

I assume here you talking eldritch disciple than mystic theurge, but true, Wee Jas is not evil nor chaotic. I sort of mixed it with the follower's alignment.

But it means you can pick an LE deity but be an LN follower of said deity and qualify to enter eldritch disciple that way. Or if able step two steps away from the deity can take feat; Heretic of the Faith (which allows 2 steps away, chose deific weapons and freely choose one domain not normally part of the deity).

With heretic of faith, you can be for giggles chaotic good Lolth priestess :P. But it allows flexibility in regarding sticking to be LN and picking a preferred deity. As mentioned being ex-warlock there are no penalties associated with it (perhaps besides being unable to continue to progress with warlock levels if your alignment is not evil or chaotic but keep everything that warlock class granted).

But the thematic pick for someone with devil's blood could be a cleric of Asmodeus (there is plenty of settings where Asmodeus clerics can be easily LN than LE).

Based on that, I'll switch my level vote from any to 21 to break the tie.

Am I right in thinking that once we choose CL 21 one level will be an epic level?

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 171):

I assume it to be so. If you have ECL/Starting level 21, then you are considered epic and able to take epic feats of qualify. No need to be 21 class level.

In reply to Narya (msg # 170):

That breaks the tie but will wait quite a bit longer for others to decide to do votes again (and decide also to start XP as that helps in building chars as well know how much XP is for crafting if anything).

We're looking at very similar builds, Narya, but with different focuses, I'm guessing, though.  Particularly with the Archivist/Loremaster combination. The ECL21 adjustment has me thinking about things post-20, though.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 172):

This is not true. You need 21 class levels consecutively to be epic.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:39, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

Personally, I would prefer to not tackle Epic spells at all at this point, craftable or not. They can be a lot of fun, but they're also a pain in the ass and a half to balance.




I did indeed, thank you for the correction. V has ruled on changing the warlock's alignment, however; even if I shifted her alignment to Evil (which would, quite frankly, be a huge stretch for her given her backstory), I'd also have to choose a different deity -- and, quite frankly, the only two that would really fit would be Boccob (N) or Wee Jas (LN).



V also noted this; quite frankly, I think I'm going to just let go of that path altogether rather than try to force it. It was a neat idea, though.

Back to the drawing board!
This message was last updated by the player at 19:05, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 175):

Aha, ok. I was wrong then. The question though was starting level so if we have 21 as starting level, one level is epic likely (unless you have LA on both sides or do not get any class to +20 level or PrC +10).

Maynitra: I meant epic items specifically regarding buying them (but able to craft if able to do it) than epic spells as nobody mentioned epic tier items (as some epic items can be very powerful).

Also, the Chaotic Good Lolth priestess was merely a joke reference to how extreme you can go in alignment differences with heretic of the faith feat (than an as a serious suggestion). But if your only choices are Boccob or Wee Jas then eldritch disciple is sadly not possible without GM's decision over it.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:11, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

By the way, I read this as:

Ghanek: 40pt buy only
Me: Roll 3d6+6, then 40pt buy if unsatisfied
Brookdale: 40pt buy only
Hathra: Roll 3d6+6, then 40pt buy if unsatisfied
Phorcys: Roll 3d6+6, then 40pt buy if unsatisfied
Eldryn: 40pt buy only
Narya: any point buy (only)
Vythisk: 40pt buy only

Seems like a close but clear win for 40pt buy (no rolling), right?

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 177):

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. And yes, I'd support the purchase of Epic tier items -- quite frankly, I'd even be ok with folks having them even without being able to craft them. But maybe with a maximum of 1 Epic level item, period.

In the past I've seen purchase limits -- for example, no more than half of total wealth on a single item, and all other items must be 1/3 (or even 1/4) WBL or less -- but I'm definitely not tied to that.

Also might be good to discuss whether combining items is ok, too.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 178):

Yeah, I read the roll or 40 point buy the same as 'point buy' supporting votes but I tried separately counting the rolling ones as well.

Also good to discuss do we allow buying epic items (no need to craft them, as I initially suggested only those who can craft them can take them). Also, do we allow combine magic items, and is there a limit to how much money we can spend (like a max cost for items with 50% of your wealth)?

As item combining can get crazy as well. More so with crafters who break the mold bit but I did give my piece about it in allowing folks to start halfway next level and those who craft/spend XP spend from the said pool (and thus their trade-out is that they get later level-ups than those who don't spend XP).

I've played a Chaotic Neutral Priestess/Eye of Lolth.

I'd like to change my XP vote from minimum to median in order to break any deadlock

Narya if we are going to level 21 and you play something like:

Beguiler 11/Loremaster 10 // Rakshasa/Sorcerer 7 then you would have the spellcasting of a 21st level Beguiler and cast as a 14th level Sorcerer.

I was planning possibly taking advantage of that myself. I believe your familiar would only count as you being 7th level though.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 183):

One way to get a higher level of familiar (with that build) is trading away a familiar feature as sorcerer and then take (as beguiler) Obtain Familiar feat as beguiler. Then familiar traits are based on arcane CL of being beguiler + any arcane class levels in that side of gestalt.

Sounds like we can swap spells and talk about esoteric subjects!


Edited - if it helps with stepping on toes, if we have epic feats, I'll take epic ignore material components.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:14, Sun 16 Oct 2022.

Oh my goodness Narya, it seems we have similar tastes in literature

I thought so, as well.  Your idea of a library was very intriguing to me, particularly in light of the Stronghold Builder's Guide rules for research and knowledge checks.  See p. 25 for more info.  Master lots of books offer a +6 and the two sages (research assistants) working in the library offer another +2 or +4, depending.

I'll admit to having a certain affinity for the Netherese and their flying cities, so I'm seriously hoping this book and related ones make it into the mix.

Narya - nice build very thematic, except I think Agent Retriever requires you to have 24 Ranks in Gather Information and K: Planes? Which you can't get until 21st level. I don't know Narya's alignment, but if you are nongood maybe instead go Beguiler20/Mindbender1 and then go Agent Retriever next level?

Thanks for the positive feedback, everyone!

Vythisk, good point on Agent Retriever - for some reason, I thought I could qualify at the same level as when I gained the skills, but I see that is not the case.  If the DM sets us at epic levels or we later advance to them, I'll strongly consider mindbender as it looks great for a dip.

Cyril, we'll need to work together on the stronghold!

Ghanek, I was thinking that Narya and Ghanek traveled together, especially in earlier days. Narya may have been hunting for lore and offered her services for passage to an area along the way. If we are at a level where I can buy a Mirror of Mental Prowess without ruining the budget, maybe it resides on your ship, and was something we found together? They may have used it for some reconnaissance while traveling. We'll see if we can afford or find one, though...!

Seems reasonable, I think my ship's a Caravel.  I've scrapped my sheet though to wait and see what character creation rules are in place.

My current thoughts are:

Aventi
Side one: Scout somewhere between 12 and 20/ Horizon Walker 1-5/maybe invisible blade.

Side two: Swashbuckler ?/ Legendary Captain 9 or 10

So, should we get the Landlord feat was thinking of something like this:

Tower of Seric - a tall tower of stone and metal where craftsfolk work on projects to fuel the city. Weapons, Armor, and other stranger objects are produced by the workers of this city. At the heart of the tower is a small planar gate to the Plane of Magma - from that plane a continual pool of magma is siphoned and then used in various ways - heating the various forges of the tower, being slowly separated into its component parts to form glass, iron, and all of the other metals found in the magma.

This is also the personal work shop of Vythisk where he has his personal workshop and quarters.

Depending on resources might try to finagle it into being smaller, but able to slowly fly and be a mobile workshop.

Sorry for misunderstanding (towards GM), thought with ballot results we have decided the chargen stuff but it's just our opinion expression and GM finally decides what the stuff are (so we sort jumped the boat early :P).

Now, if we do start in 21 levels (with dual progression allowed to one side) my build would be;

Illumian male lich (lich template provided free as class feature)
First path: Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14/Epic True Necromancer 1
Second path: Dread Necromancer 20/Epic Dread Necromancer 1

Other build parts; Have Stasis Clone from Lord of Darkness supplement having been used via scroll (will be bought in chargen) and have venerable age bonuses to mental stats while physical stats are based on before middle age (thanks using younger body via gaining it with stasis clone created many years ago before becoming a lich).

Whether or not a Wee Jas worshipper, my cleric will be having Deathbound (domain found in libri mortis) and Death and Knowlegde Domains as cleric (having access to knowlegde domain from being a cloistered cleric than regular cleric).

Then either using undead mastery to qualify or take flaw to pay feat tax in taking corpsecrafter and then take following upragde feats (corpsecrafter and upragde feats from libri mortis); Destruction Retribution and Nimble Bones (thus all undead created via necromancy spell will be faster and explode in negative energy burst upon defeat, besides all them be tougher, stronger and more agile as well).

Other feats what thinking to get; Fell Energy (draconomicon), Fell Drain & Fell Animate (both from libri mortis). Then Spell Focus (Necromancy) for qualify for PrC and Quicken Spell. I may trade two earlier mentioned feats for extend spell and persistent spell (cause it's overall useful) or invisible spell from Cityscape or Death Devotion from complete champion.

Besides corpsecrafter feat, another flaw feat would be Voice of the Mage. As 1 mile communication is damn useful both leading mindless undead or commune specific manner to specific people. Was seriously tempted by name of the mage feat as well (would take it if no need take flaw feat for corpsecrafter feat tax).

Flaws would be reckless and frail (-1 AC and -1 HP per HD).

Epic feat would be Undead Mastery (multiply undead I can control by x10). In dread necromancer side it would be 4 + Cha Mod per dread necromancer level (not caster level). In cleric part it's 3 times caster level as cleric (which would be 16) and wizard side twice wizard caster level (also would be 16). But as true necromancer, I got necromantic prowess which adds +4 CL for necromancy spells (so albeit does not imply but could also be understood this bolsters number of undead I can control with animate dead and similar spells).

So, lots controlled undead (hundreds with cleric and wizard but possibly thousands as dread necromancer). More so dread necromancer with undead mastery can command more undead with control undead spell per casting (equal 2 + Cha mod per dread necromancer level), which is beyond the normal commanding capacity (albeit temporal and is 1 minute per CL, unless persistent spell is used). Forgot mention numbers above indicate HD cap of the undead controlled.

So, important books to me in chargen would be (besides core);
-Unearthed Arcana (specific ACF for cleric and use of flaws and naturally for gestalt)
-Libri Mortis (spells/a domain/feats and true necromancer prestige class)
-Draconomicon (one feat)
-Heroes of Horror (for dread necromancer class)
-Lords of Darkness (one specific spell)
-Complete Champion (some spells + one feat)
-Cityscape (one specific metamagic feat)
-Dragon Magazine (specifically Dragon #359, for 'of the mage' feats)

Then general useful books/sources (not just me but everyone, as suggestion);
-Complete series (warrior, adventurer, arcane, mage, champion etc)
-Magic Item Compendium (for items and updated items from earlier sources)
-Spell Compendium (updated spells from earlier sources)
-Environment books (Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Stormwrack etc)
-Unearthed Arcana (lots stuff)
-Stronghold Builder's Guide (for landlord feat and overall city/base building guidelines)
-Heroes of Horror & Battle (spells, feats and PrC's and rules for 'mass combat' in case of event of war or massive battles)
-DMG II and PHB II (both books having useful things, more spells, feats, ACF's and how establish and run a business)
-Plus any specific things (spells, race, prestige class, items etc) from official sourced materials (like setting books) from 3.0 or 3.5 edition, approved by players/GM

---

In regarding one important factor which needs discuss; is combining magic items. Official ruling, the math goes in cost wise that items which fuse cost 50% of most expensive item in the mix extra (and must be items which occupy same slot).

I would say you can both craft and buy fused items, but do we want limit how many fusions are done or no limit? My end I would not mind it's unlimited (it after all costs gold). However it can get also silly if you fuse 10 or more rings into single ring.

So my suggestion is to balance the fusion process; the most expensive item 50% price is paid each time fusion is done.

Example; Ring of Spellstoring (50,000gp) fused with Ring of Protection+5 (50,000gp) costs 125,000gp to buy (and half if crafted).

If you combine Ring of Spellstoring (50,000gp), Ring of Protection+5 (50,000gp) and Wizardry III (70,000gp), such ring would cost 240,000gp (100% the cost of most expensive item added in, if combine four items it's 150% of most expensive item as added cost in the mix).
This message was last edited by the player at 11:30, Tue 18 Oct 2022.

As sepparated discussion, how other players would feel as hardcore necromancer I have discovered way create unique undead? I am speaking here that canonically my characther has discovered in this world/setting where we play how to create karrnathi skeletons and karrnathi zombies from Eberron setting?

Officially there is no rules exactly how create them (besides one PrC which allows creating one once per day), but creator of the setting has told Karrnath uses a variant of animate dead to create the karrnathi skeleton and zombies.

I would agree with UA and the Complete Series (especially Complete Adventurer) and I would obviousy like to include Stormwrack and perhaps Eberron or shining south so that I could consider an airship.

On further thought:

Side A:  if 18 - Swashbuckler 9/Legendary Captain 9 (Aventi)
         if 19 - Swashbuckler 5/Invisible Blade 5/Legendary Captain 9 (human, not Aventi)
         if 20 - Swashbuckler 5/Invisible Blade 5/Legendary Captain 10 (human not Aventi)
         if 21 - Swashbuckler 7/Invisible Blade 5/Legendary Captain 9 (Aventi)

Side B:  if 18 - Scout 12/Horizon Walker 6
         1f 19 - Scout 18/Horizon Walker 1
         if 20 - Scout 18/Horizon Walker 2
         if 21 - Scout 20/horizon walker 1

Will definitely buy a ship but the type of ship depends on level of build and money available.

If 18, it'll be a Caravel
if 19, it'll probably be a Dromond (and he'll probably be a Scarlet Corsair instead of a Legendary Captain)
1f 20, he'll be a human raft person and it'll be a collection of rafts and war canoes.
if 21, it'll be the best he can get - possibly three Caravels.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 192):

Agreed; I hadn't been meaning to interrupt or jump ahead in the process. Consider my stuff definitely a work in progress -- everything is still up in the air!

As far as books go, I'm looking at the Complete Series, plus the Players Handbook II; Lords of Madness would also be nice, for just 1 feat. Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium would round out my preferred book list.
I'm looking at

Drow Female
Side A: Focused Abjurer (3) / Master Specialist 11 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
Side B: Drow (LA2) / Major Devil Bloodline (3) / Duskblade 3 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Drow Paragon 3 / Mindbender 4

with Cleric Domains being Charm, Inquisition, and Knowledge, and using the UA wizard ACFs to swap out fighter feats for wizard feats and the wizard familiar for an animal companion.

In fact, if you want to see all of the details, you can check out a rough breakdown by level in place of my open character sheet.

On one side of the build, I'm very tied to the idea of an Cleric/Archivist/Dweomerkeeper, but need to fill this out with a few levels.  Maybe those last 5 levels could round out with Thaumaturgist.  This would make something like Wizard/Master Specialist/Mage of the Arcane Order/Loremaster on the other side, maybe with a few levels of Archmage as a cherry on top.  Ultimately, MofAO is how Cyril will advance post level 20.

Honestly, it's the very idea of specialist vs. generalist is what's thwarting me.  If I just abandon it for MotAO and Archmage, he comes out a wild generalist, but without as much flavor.  Still, given our focus on managing a city, the generalist might be a better, if less flavorful choice.

Thoughts?  Thanks!
This message was last edited by the player at 19:47, Mon 17 Oct 2022.

All this said, there's the "The Book of Immortals" for us to consider.  I'm new to that book, though, and not sure yet how Narrator_V means for it to be included.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 197):

I do not know how even implement The book of Immortals as I have never read or used it. But if ask for opinions; I think playing bold is more fun and flavorful. A generalist is useful, yes, but there are other generalists in the group and a solid specialist can be a great asset as well.

Does anyone have books/classes/prcs/magic items/feats that they would really like to see banned? I am just curious if someone has a strong opinion on that side of the discussion.

Also, Cyril are you going to be worshipping Mystra - or try to port it over to another deity? If you went Master Specialist what would your specialty be?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 200):

Yes, Mystra, though Cyril leans to the Neutral instead of NG.  I'm trying to keep things relatively simple, though I'm not sure whether we'll even have access to FR deities or we're sticking with the default GH ones.

As far as PrCs & books, it looks like there's a pretty good list begun.  My preference leans to "official" WoTC published materials, particularly core and supplementals that're non-setting specific.  That would leave out Kalamar, Dragonlance, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk specific materials.  That said, I have *zero* interest in stepping on anyone's proposed builds.  I'm OK w/ core only all the way to anything goes/magic mart.

Did anyone say spell compendium yet?

Why yes, I see we did...
This message was last edited by the player at 23:09, Mon 17 Oct 2022.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 200):

I would say exalted deeds as the book has much-broken stuff in it, vile darkness has less so but some things are also broken. Also, ban chaos shuffle which is elder evil worshipper/cult stuff.

Also albeit not against the entire book of nine swords but there is some broken stuff there as well.

But should mention one broken stuff (what I read but did not plan do so) that can be done by the core is to use polymorph any object into any desirable corpse and then animate said corpse and use awaken undead spell this method easily gets you an balor corpse (without a fight or killing a balor) and then granting you wishes.

Off hand don't remember what other stuff to ban but likely comes into discussion once sheets start to form out and after the game starts and if someone has something broken it needs to be negotiated out.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 203):

V has already said no Bo9S.

As far as banning stuff... quite frankly, I am not fond of the BoED or BoVD, but if folks want to use some of the not-so-broken stuff from those, I'd be ok with it.

I think talking through things as they come up is the best way to handle things -- especially if we're open about what we're planning to do.

For example, Maynitra's power move is using Chain Spell on a targeted (greater) dispel magic, then hitting both the individual and their magical items all at once. In and of itself it's more annoying than powerful... but in support of a more combat-oriented group, it can provide a devastating opportunity. She's also got a lot of denial tricks -- as fitting for an abjurer. She doesn't do a ton of damage... but hopefully she can set things up for others to.

---

Spoiler for From the last game (I think it's ok to share this): (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
In the previous version of this game she was basically the reason that a major devil ended up dead: greater anticipate teleportation delayed reinforcements long enough for us to be prepared for his arrival, and then dimensional anchor made it really tough for him to escape the beatdown being delivered by everyone else.

---

Adding in Mindsight (from Lords of Madness) is a new thing to try, but if folks aren't ok with it I'm fine with dropping it. The only other question really would be about bloodline levels -- do they apply only to one side, or to everything? I don't think the latter would be broken, but the former would be in keeping with the other limits we've voted for.

Beyond these, I don't think I have anything surprising or otherwise head-scratching; please feel free to look through my build plan, however, and let me know if you notice something.

Polymorph any object says "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine." Seems to me that this would negate the idea, as the corpse of a balor would probably be considered "of great intrinsic value", right? I mean, even without the possibility of animating then awakening it, the corpse of a creature that has wish as an SLA is pretty rare thing (like silver, gems, silk, gold, etc)? Also, if I read awaken undead correctly, it grants extraordinary racial abilities, not spell-like abilities, right? I'm not sure that combination would work even as written.

Like the level by level breakdown - your sheet is actually what prompted me to ask the BAB question for the GM.

Alot of companions - animal companion, item familiar, and possibly a more regular familiar. Are you planning on getting an animal companion? As if I am reading it right your level would be, what 1 or 2 at best?

I am assuming that you went Cloistered Cleric to get Inquistion and Knowledge - one for the dispel and the other so you could get Knowledge Devotion.

It seems like a very strong caster who can shutdown to one degree or another almost any opponent and survive the experience while making it look easy.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 204):

I am not against mindsight, it's a cool ability to have. Albeit need to determine does anything counter it though. In my games, I rule that mind blank or similar effect can block it (but nothing else besides being mindless).

Also, the polymorph anything trick is what I just read online so it may be flawed and not true, just read someone who got balor's corpse via that method and assumed it was because they somehow got able to restore spell-alike abilities back to it (or just have powerful minion).

The idea is that you got a demon body and you changed it to another demon body of similar size. Get a right-sized demon with planar binding and nuke the demon out but the same forum said you can avoid the entire polymorph process just by nuking the balor in a planar bind it into a room loaded with anti-demon nuke spells and traps (with reset function).

But I agree there is plenty of other cheese in-game besides 'what books allow' so it would be good just to talk as a group if anybody goes too cheesy.

I also realized the animate dead counts from any CL the cap (read somewhere in forums in DMG II has a reference to this as errata), so cleric and wizard are not separately counted but CL 20 are still possible (and dread necromancer would be separately counted because it changes the entire formula of how it works first place).

Anyways my major 'cheese' if any is to be the ultimate undead minionmancer and ability to create undead easily (both fodder and potent minions). With some nasty spell combos to debuff/cripple enemies or bolster undead further. Plus some decent versatility in spell choices both from arcane and divine.

Albeit question for others; would cohorts be made same as the players? Opinions on that? Can cohorts be gestalt and have same stat generation? Or are they regular single class progression?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 206):

I recalculated her BAB using fractional and it comes out to +14. I might be able to tweak it up to +15 with a few level shifts, but it doesn't make a huge difference for her. (If she's doing iterative attacks, something has gone horribly wrong.... like having to face an iron golem.)

Yes, her animal companion would be for Wiz3 (Wiz6 if bloodline is allowed everywhere), which is not powerful. That's ok, though, as quite frankly that's her decoy familiar -- to protect her actual familiar (if she takes the feat for it).

From Cloistered Cleric she's getting Inquisition (for the bonus to dispel checks), Charm (for access to charm person, which she otherwise won't have), and Knowledge (for the Knowledge Devotion feat). She'll also take the skill trick "Collector of Stories" -- if we're ok with skill tricks -- as it would provide an alternate method of helping the group in combat situations.



That's the goal! There's a reason her title is "Mistress of Denial"! :D (It's also part of the reason she'd make a good arbiter -- she can't necessarily win by herself via force of arms, but if she has force of arms on her side, troublemakers are going to have a tough time of it.)

---

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 207):

I could definitely see mind blank protecting against Mindsight. Most of the other spells I thought might protect against it (like nondetection or misdirection) only protect specifically against divination spells.

Regarding animate dead cap: Ah, I get it -- you have separate caps for each caster level; it's just that on casting the spell checks against the relevant cap based on ALL of the undead you've currently got created and controlled, regardless of source. It looks like Dread Necromancer basically adds their Cha mod to the number of HD per level controlled -- effectively increasing the cap -- instead of creating a separate pool of undead HD? Given that Dread Necromancer's spellcasting is based on Charisma, that's going to create an insane HD limit -- I'm guessing you'll easily end up with 200+HD of zombies and skeletons. You should probably focus on animating with Dread Necromancer, and using your cleric and wizard for other spells. I don't know all the spells in Libre Mortis, but you should also check out ghoul gauntlet from the SpC, as that could potentially get you ghouls in addition to your zombies and skeletons. Undead Mastery doesn't appear to boost the number of undead you can control through rebuking, but that would still be another HD worth of undead available for you to use....

There's also the soft-cap in the spell in that the skeleton and zombie templates can't be used to create undead of more than 20HD -- which I guess makes sense? It is a 4th level spell, after all. In any case, I'm fine with either interpretation; I'd been imagining that you'd have an small army of undead, so...

Regarding gestalt cohorts: although I like the idea of us being mentors to our cohorts, it probably makes more sense if they're not gestalt -- especially if being gestalt is part of what marks our characters as special in the world. I'd be ok with them having the same stat generation, but gestalt should probably be restricted.

With regards to requested sourcebooks, I would like to see the Complete series, the Spell Compendium, and the Magic Item Compendium. I would also like to use the Drow of the Underdark and FR Underdark books. Underdark is 3.0, but it has the better version of the class I want to use, the Arachnomancer. Drow of the Underdark also has a version of that class, but it is significantly less good as a prestige class.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:34, Tue 18 Oct 2022.

I'd like Dragonlance: Book of Mortals to be allowed, so I could consider including Mariner in my build.

I mentioned earlier, it might be easier to list the books we *don't* want included.

Sorry, I misread. I don't have any particular books to eliminate, though BoED is a bit broken. But if we allow the BoVD then we should probably allow that to balance it. So either allow or ban both. And my understanding is that Serpent Kingdoms allows for broken builds too, though I can't recall how.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 211):

I think I disagree.  Much better to start ar Core Books only (plust Unearthed Arcana to allow Gestalt characters) and then seek to add the books we need for our proposed builds.  In my case that's Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, and Stormwrack.

I had considered Dragonlance: World of Mortals and Forgotten Realms: Shining South but I won't be needing them after all.

If we work this way, it makes the DM's job much easier.

I know that Hathra wants to create a lich with hordes of undead at his command and that's cool so the question there is 'what's the easiest way to do that?'

Same for everybody else.

My build is:
Aventi (LA+0)
Side A:  Scout [Complete Adventurer] 12-15 (depending on level)/Horizon Walker [Core] 1/Invisible Blade [Complete Warrior]5
Side B:  Swashbuckler [Complete Warrior] 9-12 (again dependent on level)/Legendary Captain [Stormwrack] 9

Now I note that UA forbids having two prestige classes at the same level at the same time so at level 20, I could go:

Level   A                   B
1       Scout 1             Swashbuckler 1
2       Scout 2             Swashbuckler 2
3       Scout 3             Swashbuckler 3
4       Scout 4             Swashbuckler 4
5       Scout 5             Swashbuckler 5
6       Horizon Walker 1    Swashbuckler 6
7       Scout 6             Legendary Captain 1
8       Scout 7             Legendary Captain 2
9       Scout 8             Legendary Captain 3
10      Scout 9             Legendary Captain 4
11      Scout 10            Legendary Captain 5
12      Scout 11            Legendary Captain 6
13      Scout 12            Legendary Captain 7
14      Scout 13            Legendary Captain 8
15      Scout 14            Legendary Captain 9
16      Invisible Blade 1   Swashbuckler 7
17      Invisible Blade 2   Swashbuckler 8
18      Invisible Blade 3   Swashbuckler 9
19      Invisible Blade 4   Swashbuckler 10
20      Invisible Blade 5   Swashbuckler 11

Alternatively, I could make things easier by moving all prestige classes to column B and be
A) Scout 20
b)Swashbuckler 5/Horizon Walker 1/Legendary Captain 9/Invisible Blade 5

Just a reminder we did vote on this issue and most voted to allow able double up on prestige classes.

We did but V has said that we can't necessarily assume that he will go the way we voted so I'm going for the safe bet.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 215):

True, just reminded the voting poll cause we do not necessarily go by gestalt rules as written :), that is decided by V.

But build wise yours look nice, whether dual prestige classes are in use or not.

Re: Serpent Kingdoms - The Sarrukh they are normally a 22 ECL race, but by using some exploits a fairly low level character would be able to gain their most powerful ability fairly quickly. At least according to a certain reading of the rules which I don't think really works. This ability allows them to pretty much modify any 'Scaled Ones' in a lot of different ways.

Ghanek do you see him as being Admiral or Harbormaster? That is military force leader or a law enforcement leader? Or something between the two?

For me, I'd *love* to have an item familiar, mostly for its flavor, but from my opinion, the bit about extra XP would need to be reviewed and modified.  Maybe that power doesn't exist.  Maybe the XP bonus can only be used for crafting or the XP component of spell casting.  Maybe some other solution.

We're talking crazy high level, high power anyway.  It's not a game to win, just to play.  Sometimes the heroes / protagonists fail in their efforts, or succeed but cause terrible, unintended consequences.  I expect our dread and mighty DM will veto any exploit-based concept builds from Internet forums out of hand.  Likely there's little space for Pun Pun in this group, at least if we're fortunate.

Oh definitely harbormaster or perhaps 'Admiral' of a merchant fleet. My idea was for all of us working together to rebuild the derelict ancient city of Ivost and Ghanek's part (or Haakon's part at the time) was to rebuild the legendary harbour.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 218):

As someone else who has an Item Familiar as part of my build, I'd be perfectly fine eliminating the XP bonus power.

And V is, quite frankly, the best high level GM I've ever had the pleasure to play under, as he very much knows his stuff. In fact, I think if we can figure out a way to work together, we will have an amazingly fun time (assuming V also remains ok, of course). In my experience, player conflict (and negative feelings) is one of the main reasons very high level games fall apart.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 220):

Much appreciated Maynitra! :)

Yes, player dispute, and on about 40% player sourness has been a huge deterrent to games I've GMed at high level. I like high level, for one very big reason, I can kill PCs (which I have bad luck with in low level!) and it's not game over. I am all for power, I just don't want paperwork that it becomes arduous.

I'm also prone to allow quite a bit, I just want to make sure I can properly address the party. This game is even less important to "challenge" you all, as it is scaled from 1st to 40th, but the lower end, much like the MM, is the weight of the world. I'm not worried about the PCs stomping on my antagonists, be they righteous or justified or otherwise. More often it's PCs that have problems with other PCs, or those few bad apples that want to make me having custom NPCs into me somehow having "pet NPCs". I don't anticipate that here. Then again, I never have before either.

Unlike my other high level games, I wanted to start with the tried and true foundation that you're all a team. So far, from what I've read, you've been working to pull each other up and scale the group with each others' input. I think that will help.

Item Familiar, will likely see a modification, but I like it as well. I personally like the XP reserve idea, but again, non-casters may feel even more of a disparity exists if I do. Then again, while the XP is the big thing, it's not really what those here are after. The skill bonus, IMO is quite awesome. The magical abilities, even like (IIRC) magic circle, is really potent, especially if someone uses compulsions, to give suppression under control.

Simply put I'm trying something new here, by letting all players have an open book (with some exceptions) and talk will little discourse from me, and then in a couple days, I'll close the thread and see what's said.

Anyway!

I love high level combat too. I feel it can go long, but if it does, I feel PCs (and antagonists) have exit strategies I can pull to abort a combat that is no longer fruitful. Also skills become more fun too. Non-combat magic presides more than ever, as low level spells don't have to be "vital". Especially in a city game, we'll be spending even more time with trivial affairs that should still be engaging to influence.

I appreciate the sentiment Maynitra gave. I've had four high level games that were very fun, and players were sad to see them close. RL, especially my current RL is the second biggest threat to my games. That's always been the ultimate coup de gras. Having a bad or tiny play pool has been the stunning blow that left the game staggered, but RL has been the deathblow. As long as I work to have a healthy posting limit, minimum and maximum, and players are okay quitting (if you want to) rather than disappearing, I think I have even more going this time than before.

That said, high level, while where I thrive, is high maintenance. I'll be going over some etiquette to keep the game from rewinds whenever possible (sometimes it won't be, sometimes we may HAVE to rewind). I'll also work with you and potential newer players to find a medium to communicate information I need, where I need it, when I need it, and how I need it. This can be tedious, but I find it not only vital, but highly helpful.

So, what needs to happen now? Are we mostly decided on our votes, then?

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 222):

Votes are decided but no charsheet can be made until V gives the final information on how chars are made. We had a discussion on what kind of books are allowed and so far Exalted Deeds and Vile Deeds were called out because it is easier to say what books not allow than what books are allowed as there is a big source of them.

I kind of agree with this as it's easier to allow all official stuff (besides named banned books/sources) and as sheets come together and we reveal what 'tricks' each char is capable of doing, we can call out the overly cheesy ones and either rule/ban those overly cheesy tricks away.

Also, agreeing on how/why we are a team, I have mentioned it pair of times already in my idea/proposal about how we are a team. We may have possibly come across each other individually in past or done a job or two but the major event where we as a single group, together, took down a dracolich that ruled ruins of the city which we all had an interest in it.

The reason why we worked or wanted city together is that being a gestalt type of char is something unique in this world, like being born a natural genius but an even rarer trait. Meaning we are 'monstrously powerful' and that scares loads of bunch of regular folks.

More so even powerful adventurers who aren't gestalt are treated with serious caution if they aren't reigned in or controlled by the ruling elite who are much less powerful than the adventuring lot.

So thus our dreams surround living, controlling, or ruling in a city or need a city environment for our dreams or even a nation, we can't satisfy our dreams in other nations or cities because the ruling elite politely (or even outright hostile) manner tries smoke or drive you away accomplishing said dreams. So the solution is simply establishing a city/nation and making your own rules in there which allow your dreams and goals to prosper.

With the above, we get interesting dealings into politics and economics, as we need to recruit subjects and people willing to live in the city, do business in our city and also influence and make other cities and nations willing to do business with our city. Albeit naturally they still remain wary of the group considering how powerful we are. They know even individual level any of us can wreck any city or nation in most places, so they would avoid open hostility or warfare unless they are truly desperate or suicidal or think a powerful military alliance of multiple cities/nations can topple our military and exhaust us. You can slay even a dragon if you make the dragon run constantly without rest after all.

Also more so we aren't the only gestalt or powerful adventurers in the world (and there are powerful threats/monsters still) is also a balancing factor, but it can be Crucible is the largest concentration of varied individual powerful people in the world. At least publicly.

I like the backstory.

Does 3.5 have anything akin to Pathfinder's Kingdom Building rules?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamem...es/kingdom-building/
This message was last edited by the player at 23:43, Thu 20 Oct 2022.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 223):

I thought we'd all agreed basically to this as our background story, right? And we defeated a dracolich as part of claiming the city/ruins that we're rebuilding for our city?



In reply to Narya (msg # 224):

Nothing except for the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (and, if we get desperate, the Dungeon Builder's Guidebook -- not because we shouldn't build dungeons, but because that book was significantly less helpful than the SBG).

A question for V, but also for the rest of you.

We had previously discussed item familiars, and basically had nixed the idea of the "bonus XP" pool being used for leveling. Maynitra has one -- it's part of her background -- are folks ok with her still having that bonus XP (23,200) to use for spells/items/etc?

I'm asking specifically because I would like to use it to provide xp for casting the Genesis spell -- that is, a spell that creates a demiplane. If she can use the xp in the ring she can cast the spell 4 more times than she'd otherwise be able to... with additional castings possible as she levels up.

As far as the demiplanes themselves, she'll have one of her own no matter what. With the ring, however, she could enlarge hers (up to 720ft radius, or about 1/4 of a mile across) or she could create several (say, 4 of them at 180' radius or 2 at 360' radius each, etc). Although she can't create life within it, she can control the placement of things like the ground and water and such -- which means we could have a body of water within, or caves, or whatever. We can definitely decide what the interior is like... so long as there's space for Maynitra's Refuge.

If we go this route, you should either make sure you set aside 150k for the portal to access it. (Maynitra's cohort has the feats and Maynitra has the spells to actually craft it, so long as you're willing to pay the gold and/or xp.) Or, if we want to create a shared portal, we can split the costs. (Maynitra's already spent the funds for her personal entrance.) Either way, I just wanted to toss this out there, as I thought it might be a good way to have a relatively protected place for meetings/rest/etc.

Potentially relevant messages by number.

If anyone finds more posts, that do not cite Item Familiar by name, list them and I'll edit to include them here.

msg #106: proposal of banning item familiar.
msg #107: The pool being proposed, as an XP pool that does not contribute toward leveling.
msg #218: A "vote" in support of the use of the pool
msg #220: Maynitra's first explicit mention of being flexible, and the first explicit inquiry from her.
msg #221: I support the idea of the pool

---

I want to ensure there is transparency. I have in mind a decision to allow the bonus XP for purposes other than leveling. If there are cases against this; I'd like to hear them, and find mitigations to those problems created, rather than cases against the pool. That is, if Item Familiar is creating a disparity, to find way to close in that disparity, rather than put ban on the XP pool. I can ad hoc some solutions. First I need to know if there are any problems, and if so, what those problems are; specifically.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 227):

I say the easiest solution is that we have XP pool (everyone) which does not count towards leveling but for crafting or paying XP cost for spells (either casting or cast on them). So item familiar alone does not give the pool to the user.

But then again to get XP pool for crafting you can acquire it via having artificer levels so not against those who sacrifice a feat to get an item familiar and XP pool separated from leveling.

That's a good idea. Let me review what I said was the "Final" ruling for XP above level. I wish I had caught this before I made my final ruling. I need to review the poll again, and reconsider the particular point about XP over level. I'd like others to discuss the item familar, but this may be solely my fault, and so my duty to fix. I can say "I'm not perfect" or some version of that, but I messed up, and I apologize. I'm going to review the specific poll answer about XP over level and see if I want to overturn my "final" ruling.