Which material will we be using from the Immortals Handbook? As that book is really designed for higher epic play, I am not sure how useful it will be for the lower to mid levels that are being proposed.

A fair point well made and a good argument for a higher level. I've never actually paid at Epic level before but I'm guessing, the next question is which parts we want to play with?

IIRC, I also read in another thread we might be considering either spell points or recharge magic.  Does anyone have thoughts about those?  They're fairly powerful options to consider and may make non-casters feel a bit left out.  Gestalt might mitigate that somewhat, though.

GM Note: Due to serious distraction, I edited this post rather than posted a new one with quotation. Genuine regret and apology for bricking the post.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:59, Thu 06 Oct 2022.

Indeed, if use spell points or recharge magic the gestalt would help balance things out (even if book nine swords is taken out which would have been one major balancing force but also understand why it's not allowed cause few combos and maneuvers which are broken, albeit the 'infinity' rule sort blocks some combos).

Besides ultimate magus I have thought one side could be also warlock/ur-priest (with possible eldricth disciple) or marshal/ur-priest combo as well so my char can be a very versatile caster overall.

Albeit big question is for my build is the dread necromancer player still around, if not, may swap my build from being sorcerer/wizard to dread necro/wizard.

I'm not a fan of gestalt myself but how about we think about who we want to play and what we want to contribute to the city.  That way, we get a clue as to what levels and what books we actually need?

Hi all.
Anything above 13th level will get me the basic build I want to I cool beyond that.
If we go gestalt you are doubling each characters power.  Just keep that in mind.

Gestalt doesn't actually double your power. It does make your character more powerful, but mainly it increases versatility rather then pure power.

Still the Gestalt question is one we should probably answer first as it will effect everything else we do. I am in favor of it, but could find a different concept if needed.

In reply to Primuson (msg # 11):

That's true, gestalt does not double your power. Only add versatility to the character.

My concept is to be spellcaster lich, powerful, lots of minions, and do some item crafting on sides maybe. The exact extent of how much I am caster depends do we gestalt and what is the highest level we can reach.

What my char does is most likely be helping build a city with a free and tireless labor force in form of undead he has created and he can provide extend magical utilities to the city (intend to have craft wondrous both to be a lich and general able do magical wonders). He may support ideas for magical academies and libraries and perhaps create an active necropolis section in the city (where sentient undead reside in and try peacefully co-exist with living).

My concept is a sailor who is rebuilding the broken harbour of Ivost after thirty years doing pretty much everything that can be done on ships. From pleasure cruises to piracy, from fishing to fighting in naval warfare, to smuggling. In effect, this is his retirement.  Now he's building up his legend and legacy.

This concept doesn't rely on particular classes or builds but it's helped by having some materials available.  I'd quite like to have a ship and crew for example.

I'll put this all into a neat thread for a final vote when I feel you all have had the chance to discuss things. I do want to alert everyone, that I was not prepared to do compatibility testing at this stage. While I hope and wish for everyone to work out together, I know that there is a likelihood some of you might bow out. I have other players waiting, if we lose a large portion of the cast.

That said, we still haven't heard from everyone, and some of the cast are carry over characters that need to be moved or deleted.

Banned Sources questions:

Web only non-pdfs, even if canon - I am assuming this is stuff like Mind's Eye etc. The stuff that was published in WotC website as articles?

What about Dragon Magazines?

Also, Haakon - what kind of ship do you want? Warship? Merhcant? Skyship? Maybe an astral skiff that can planeskip and you brought back from the time that you sailed the Astral Sea and maybe did some light pirating of the Gith?

Maybe even spelljammer ship :D

I was thinking of a lightly armed merchantman but now you mention it, preying on the Gith on the Astral seas sounds fun so maybe an Astral skiff.

The demigod+ material when (if!) your characters reach epic level. If we start at 13th, I doubt that will ever happen. I think it's a non-zero chance, but very low. 18th would have decent chance, but we'd probably see RL years pass before you got to 21st.

I'm going to be multi-posting, with one post for each reply! So please read the ones that pertain. I'm doing this to organize replies.

I might consider non-spellcasters (those with zero spell slots) being able to triple gestalt, or take PrC's that allow narrow spell-like abilities as stand alone "third" classes. Stonelord, IMO, would be fine to just sit there, not taking up either side, or contributing HP, skills, or otherwise, but giving its class features as a third "side" of class features. This has worked with F2F (face to face) games, and in fact, in that experience, people still felt casters were better. It's something to consider. I'm open to making non-casters more fun.

I do not, however, even want to consider ToB. I've playtested it, and it doesn't work the way it's proposed to. So ToB is not the answer. So please consider that off the table.

If we don't gestalt, I might allow non-casters the chance to branch into a side class that, again, doesn't give any stat upgrades, but grants class features. This is not applicable to paladins or rangers or bards; even if you take a zero spell version. just rogue, fighter, barbarian, monk and PrC that don't offer spell slots. Also possibly non-core classes. Warlocks, however, would not gain this perk.

Doing this makes the few low casters less appealing, but I think that's fine. If I allowed them, it would make them too appealing and prone to skewing to close to casters.

If people want to play paladins or bards, or rangers, then we probably won't use this rule. If people want to have more than fighter feats or rogue skills, this might help give more incentive.

No....sadly. You may play a dread necromancer. Another friend, however, is playing a Red Wizard, so would like to see that reserved for them. She, however, is not so picky. So if someone really wants to play a red wizard, she says "let them".

In reply to Brookdale Moongazer (msg # 10):

As stated already, gestalt does not double power. It fortifies the party to be able to take higher CRs and thus they get less XP. It is, however, with a grain truth. Playing with class that are flavor only, on both sides, will make those that play with powerful class *Ultimate Magus & Red Wizard* be about 150% more disparity than they would be in single class. Meaning if one person picks Bard/Dread pirate//Ronin/blackguard and another players Conjurer/Red Wizard//cleric/Cosmic Descryer. and both are 24th level. The first character won't even feel epic. They will feel like a 16th level character, in an epic game, while the second character will feel like a 28th level character in a 24th level game. This is not gestalt doing this, this is class disparity, only moderately affected by gestalt.

Not allowed.


case by case basis. I have a collection of dragon magazines in pdf. As I had a sub to DDI for 4e, for many many years, as a gift from a friend. Will, in fact, the player that was going to play the Dread Necromancer, who subsequently dropped out. Will kept the account active long enough to see the service retired, and toward the end I had the option to DL dragon magazines (even 3.5 ones). Bad compensation, and left bitter taste in my mouth for them not to allow the users to DL the PROGRAM! But...I digress. I have access to the magazines I DLed, but not all. I had to DL them one by one, so don't nearly have them all.

In reply to Haakon (msg # 17):

I would suggest buying a ship from Arms & Equipment and then upgrading it with Stormwrack items, TBH. I will be introducing the ship from Maguic of Faerun at some point, but that is an overpriced item at nearly a 20th level character's TOTAL wealth. I forget the name, but it's like 720k. I'd very much look as Stormwrack instead. Same price will do far more and have far more versatility. Still very pricey though! VERY pricey indeed.

*nods*

She can claim that PrC reserved fine for me, albeit it can also be fun have two red wizards and more so considering they use circle magic system where they can reach a ridiculous amount of power based on participants. But I like to play ultimate magus for the flexibility it provides (and flavor). So very unlikely to go red wizard.



It was Halruaa Skyship what your thinking about (it's insanely expensive as well were other magic items). Cheaper get an airship (and probably easier rulewise function) using Eberron sources, I recall air or fire elemental empowered airship from EBerron was 250-300K range. However it was tied to captain having Mark of the Storm but that's mostly flavor and can rule captain just need charisma checks vs elemental to command the ship.

Hmm... no, don't want an airship thanks and this Halruaa Skyship doesn't sound like something I'd want.  Happy to get a ship from arms and equipment.  Frankly, given a choice between airship and submarine, I'd go for the submarine, especially if I find a way to sail in and out of the Plane of Water.

In reply to Haakon (msg # 4):

Hi all -- sorry for not responding more quickly, but I wanted to verify a few details with V before saying anything. So here are a few of my thoughts, both in response to V's original post and in response to some of the discussion that's occurred since then:

1. I'm personally fond of gestalt, but I would be ok without it; I'd also prefer higher level (15+). Maynitra was built for a previous incarnation of The Staff's Wake in which she was ECL27. The lower the build level is here, the farther I end up from my original concept -- which, of course, is ok, but it'd be nice to stick closer to home.
   
   
2. While gestalt and level matter, I think I'm also very interested in understanding the political balance and alignments allowed. What will keep our characters aligned and working toward common well-being? If folks are planning on building Chaotic Evil characters, what keeps them from screwing over everyone else? In other words, how are we, as players, going to make sure that the narrative remains coherent and doesn't dissolve into chaos? V has a ton on his plate already; figuring out a way to agree to work together will make things easier for him, and make it more likely that the game continues. (As an aside/full disclosure: Maynitra is Lawful Neutral in alignment.)
   
   
3. A suggestion -- as we're considered leaders/movers/shakers/etc in this region, everyone should get Leadership as a bonus feat, with an additional amount of money used solely for infrastructure/organizational resources? This could cover things like Haakon's ship, temples, universities, etc. It would add an additional bookkeeping element for us, and we could instead, of course, simply handle it as fluff. Will our focus be more on personal acts as individuals, or management of city resources?

Anyway, I'm glad to be here, and it's good to meet all of you!

1) As mentioned fine +13 level so 15-18 is fine for me. So far perhaps to get the most out of being a leader (and more money) is to start at a higher level. So 18 everyone? If commit long-term we may get epic levels and get use immortals handbook. Or if want a quicker pace to epic levels, start already on 20.

2) In My end my char alignment will be lawful evil, Hathra's goal is more to establish a base of power where he can openly exist as undead and lich without 'overly zealous' paladins coming to smite him because he chose to be undead. He can be ruthless, but he is a man of principle and he does not attack someone unprovoked (or make their lives living hell). In overall goal is to seek happiness for himself and those who follow and respect him.

Does he plan to conquer the world? Yes, as he views the world as unforgiving and intolerant to undead overall and he seeks to achieve his world domination scheme at a patient but slow pace. Once he is a tyrant (a beneficial/benevolent in his view sort tyrant) he can secure himself and others' happiness and his seeking happiness is entirely selfish and is well aware of it. However, depending on how IC interactions go he may give up being a tyrant and simply rule the world with a council of like-minded individuals instead (but as a lich he has eternity to wait and plan so anyone in the council who is not undead/immortal, he outlives them and their descendants likely).

His Illumian side encourages everyone to seek their own niche and perfection and he knows he cannot do this alone (at least at this stage), so he has allies and tries to cooperate with them without stepping on anyone's toes seriously in the process. In the group and council, he is the guy who asks 'how do we or our city benefit from doing this?' when any plans or expanding or diplomatic relations are done as he aims for everyone, he, his followers, and the council gains benefits. He aims for stability and long-term sustained benefits over quick ones if negative side effects are long term but he can do quick beneficial things if negative sides can be diminished or entirely eliminated.

3) I agree as leaders of city we could have both leadership and landlord feats as free bonus feats. Leadership give followers/cohort loyal to us (not fill citizen population as not entire population is diehard loyal). Landlord feat can cover buildings which we contribute to the city and can invest to get double of the investment to 'build more' which we can choose invest in. Also landlord can cover business establishing expenses (business running rules found in DMG II are useful).
This message was last edited by the player at 21:11, Thu 06 Oct 2022.

18 works for me, I think.  I think I'm going to be using very little magic (if any) but at that level and with the leadership feat, I think I can get my crew to work as a well oiled machine.

Well if you want to limit some of the options for Gestalt you could just say that on the upper power level you can't take two high powered classes - for those who use the Tier idea you can't Gestalt 1/1, 1/2, or 2/2. That would limit some of the craziest Gestalts.

I am personally in favorite of gestalt - because I am probably if we do it going to have one side be mostly Monster and the other a class. You rarely have the chance to be a lycanthrope of one stripe or another, or an Ogre Magi, or perhaps a Haraknin.

Hathra if you want an Undead minion master have you considered maybe Dread Necromancer // Cleric with Deathbound domain?