It would be a neat connection between our chars, you follow aspects of law and magic while I embrace aspects of death. Albeit still on air am I Wee Jas cleric or will I be a philosophical cleric who reveres her (and other gods of death) in general.

You can as abjurer be easily excellent judge/police type force and establish security and law, whereas I can run mortuary/necropolis area but governing wise be a magister unless someone else covets said role. Or if no one runs university (magical more so), could Hathra be principle of said school of magic.

But these are musings atm until chargen settles and when GM decides is deathbound domain something that Wee Jas could have. As Wee Jas is not against raising undead; so long there is the lawful origin for the said act (she hates illegal methods like robbing crypts/graves from goods and bodies but if you have like via speak with the dead asked to consent or have ahead written consent of deceased use their bodies in necromancy she is fine with it). Some Wee Jas clergy is also undead naturally and had become ones as means of mastering lore and magic.

Yeah, the general fluff material for Wee Jas is pretty quiet on how she feels about undead.  Long ago in Living Greyhawk, she despised them.  IIRC, what's published on the topic has her really big on consent regarding from anyone being raised as undead and their remains being acquired in a lawful manner.  So, like the middle ages and dissection, it's likely volunteers and/or criminals.

Yeah, and if Hathra is Wee Jas cleric he would definitely have any undead only through volunteers or criminals converted into undead as 'penance' for their crimes. Likely if we go by the story I suggested that we took over the ruins of the city from dracolich which had undead minions, Hathra likely destroyed the undead after the battle.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 157):

Oh, I like that idea. Hell, half of the work would have been finding its phylactery after defeating it. I still think there should have been a living population present as well -- folks either working with/for the dragon (by choice or not), slaves, or captives -- that could become our initial population.

Maybe we *didn't* find it's phylactery and that remains a difficulty for the group to overcome.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 159):

Alternatively possible, that phylactery was not in the city and thus dracolich materialized anew somewhere in the world and is a threat and dracoliches can be vicious adversaries (more so when pissing one off and take over the city).

There could have been mortal followers of dracolich who got converted to population or undead as punishment for their crimes (war crimes likely as they were army raiding around other cities perhaps).

Also, possible battle captives/slaves were there and those became regular citizens (some of them while the rest wanted to go home).

Or it can be one great deeds party is known for defeating a dracolich, it would be a very epic milestone performed as a group and cement the idea we can cooperate very well together despite alignment/race differences. Perhaps the name 'crucible' comes from dracolich phylactery which was destroyed and became a trophy of the group.

Hathra: Corpsecrafter would still give you 2 hp/HD even if you don't get the strength.

I don't in general think we should get rid of the 'useless' feats as they are often flavor or yes a feat tax - this is usually for an unusually strong PrC anyways.

Maynitra - You said you are pretty firm on being Lawful right?

True, but otherwise useless.

Yes, quite.

Well, had two...actually three thoughts for you.

If you were still considering going Gish - Abjurer//Melee type of build and with a Drow Devil Bloodline you could go full Gonzo and just hit out for a nice Draegloth. Big departure, but funny thought of a Draegloth dual wielding greatswords while holding a wand in a third hand and casting a spell in the fourth.

If you like Warlock - there is a way around the evil/non lawful thing. A drow is not a great fit for it (Con is an important stat), and that is the oft forgotten Dragonfire Adept.

The reason I was asking about Lawful is that there is a CG god of abjurers and mythals in the Seldarine. This god is dying because they spent alot of their power in making mythals and in a last ditch effort to recover made a ring to regain their power. The ring was stolen though and their last avatar was stuck in the spot - so they have trouble rekindling their religion. So, thought maybe one of the last followers of this god, who is looking to make a mythal over a rising city and promote their god might also make a good concept. Also would give you a McGuffin - the ring to return it to their god and let them regain much of their power from it. Huh kind of a Sauron situation. Of course unless you are a cleric you don't need to match your deities alignment.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 164):

While interesting, Maynitra actually has a rather extensive backstory. Some of that will need to shift and change, of course, but it's as much about tracking with that as it is the actual crunch of the build.

I guess the other possibility would be to step away from this character and come up with something else... but that feels rather big.

I just realized something that regards your desire to be lawful neutral while being a warlock; in Complete Arcana nor in any future errata, is mentioned what it means to be ex-warlock. Meaning if you divert away from designated alignment being chaotic or any evil.

There are no downsides to changing your alignment as a warlock, it is not stated anywhere what happens when you change alignment. Alignment is only mentioned to be able to enter/start as a warlock.

As rules are written, if you differ from class alignment it will then separately tell punishments in doing so (like in the cases of monks and paladins), but warlock has no such details officially anywhere.

In most RAW terms you are unlikely can progress with the class if go by that limitation very least even if it's not mentioned (cannot progress as a lawful neutral person as warlock). But you don't lose your warlock abilities gained so far, like a monk. It does not stop you from qualifying for prestige classes later which ask warlock abilities, nor prestige classes which progress warlock abilities while having no alignment restrictions.

So you could write in the background you once in past were evil/chaotic, but later in life entered the life of a cleric and then combined your past and present together to become Eldritch Disciple. Whereas your only limitation is written by cleric class, but also one requirement for eldritch disciple is; Ability to turn or rebuke undead, and must worship a chaotic or evil deity.

So, if want to enter the eldritch theurge you need to decide what is more important to your char morale/personality; neutral vs evil, law vs chaos. I think you can play a harsh but fair judge as LE. While CN is more follower of their own defined rules/laws than bureaucratic or organization-established ones (and even then they are guidelines which can change on whim).

Either way, as a cleric you can be one step away from your deity in alignment so can still be cleric of Wee Jas as LE cleric.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:48, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 166):

Actually in reading over Mystic Theurge, that would also require choosing a deity that was either chaotic or evil -- of which Wee Jas is neither. While tweaking the alignment requirements for that would also be possible, it's feeling like a bigger and bigger ask, quite frankly.

Now, the overall result of Ballot at this moment is;

---

1. Starting Level
-21 (no epic spells), 3 voted
-18, 3 voted
-2 votes do not care and thus don't count in either direction

1a. Starting XP Total
-start at the midpoint for level, 4 voted (some suggesting additional XP which will be lost when not spent)
-Minimum level, 4 voted (some suggesting additional XP which will be lost when not spent)

2. Gestalt[list]
yes (all voted yes)

2a. If Yes, Dual Casting Progression
-only if single side qualified, 5 voted (one had none and yes if one side qualified here)
-None, 3 voted (one voted both above and this)

2b. If Yes, Multiclass Feats
-only if single side qualified, 6 voted
-any/yes, 2 voted

2c. If Yes, LA + monster HD take
-one side and no restrictions, 5 voted
-one side and class limited (via Savage Species racial levels), 3 voted

2d. LA buyback
-only if not gestalt, 5 voted
-no, 2 voted
-only if applied to ECL, thus effectively "both sides", 1 voted

2e. If Yes, Simultaneous Prestige classes[list]
-yes, 6 voted
-no, 1 voted
-neither, 1 voted

3. Spell-points
-no, 7 voted (some preferred recharge magic instead points)
-either, 1 voted

4. Determining Attributes
-40 point buy, 4 voted (split votes for rolling)
-roll 3d6 (drop lowest) and add 6 -- 8x drop lowest 2, arrange as desired, 2 voted (split votes for 40 point buy)
-roll 3d6 (drop lowest) and add 6 -- 8x drop lowest 2, arrange as desired, 40 pt if they suck, 1 voted

5. Hitpoints -- by RAW, first level is always max
-roll hit dice, 1 voted
-roll with minimum of 1/2 max + 1, 6 voted
-roll with minimum of 1/2 max, 1 voted

6. Starting Bonus Feats
-Leadership and Landlord feats, 5 voted
-any, 1 voted
-none, 2 voted

7. Starting Wealth/Resources
-personal wealth (by level) only, 3 voted
-personal wealth (by level) plus craft points, 4 voted
-personal Wealth (by level) Plus bonus cash to purchase/Craft consumables, 1 voted

---

These are not finalized, more update post what the ballot looks like atm. So far only unresolved/undecided are;

-Starting level (so far tie between 18 vs 21 levels with no epic spells)
-Starting XP (tie between minimum for a level or midpoint)

All rest have been 'resolved' unless people change their ballots now afterward. My own comments on both above ties;

Starting level: I lean to 21 starting level for two reasons; one being that I can reach 20th level as a dread necromancer and able to get a lich template without LA involved (GM already confirmed this is the ruling he goes by that feature). I have phylactery and follow otherwise all normal rules being a lich. Second, the 21 levels allow pick one epic feat and I think it can be a great addition to everyone (like getting epic leadership and getting followers past leadership score 25 if they so desire). Also, 21 level offers lots of gold which to spend around for yourself and possibly invest in our city without feeling like nerfing yourself. Can perhaps place an additional ruling that besides no epic spells, no epic items unless you can craft it.

From a roleplay perspective; Also being 21 sets our chars being 'epic entities' in setting and make us true shaker and shifters in the world in our respective fields with few to no equals. Also, 21 levels in gestalt mean you have likely completed any prestige classes or have completed 'basic pre-epic builds'.

Starting XP: My point of view, if we start at 21 and are half-way to 22 level, it means you have 5,512,500 XP (if my math did not fail me) to spend for any crafting, spells or other stuff. Now, someone who is not a spellcaster or crafter keeps this XP and is closer to level 22 (which is still far off).

While if the caster/crafter spends this XP they are behind the chars who did not craft or 'create' anything. Also, I think with the amount of XP given they can spend a lot and still have leftover casting XP-draining spells in future adventures/campaigns (like wish spells which are the norm in +20 play). But it comes to cost that they lag behind those who have no such expenses and may not get level while others do.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 167):

I assume here you talking eldritch disciple than mystic theurge, but true, Wee Jas is not evil nor chaotic. I sort of mixed it with the follower's alignment.

But it means you can pick an LE deity but be an LN follower of said deity and qualify to enter eldritch disciple that way. Or if able step two steps away from the deity can take feat; Heretic of the Faith (which allows 2 steps away, chose deific weapons and freely choose one domain not normally part of the deity).

With heretic of faith, you can be for giggles chaotic good Lolth priestess :P. But it allows flexibility in regarding sticking to be LN and picking a preferred deity. As mentioned being ex-warlock there are no penalties associated with it (perhaps besides being unable to continue to progress with warlock levels if your alignment is not evil or chaotic but keep everything that warlock class granted).

But the thematic pick for someone with devil's blood could be a cleric of Asmodeus (there is plenty of settings where Asmodeus clerics can be easily LN than LE).

Based on that, I'll switch my level vote from any to 21 to break the tie.

Am I right in thinking that once we choose CL 21 one level will be an epic level?

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 171):

I assume it to be so. If you have ECL/Starting level 21, then you are considered epic and able to take epic feats of qualify. No need to be 21 class level.

In reply to Narya (msg # 170):

That breaks the tie but will wait quite a bit longer for others to decide to do votes again (and decide also to start XP as that helps in building chars as well know how much XP is for crafting if anything).

We're looking at very similar builds, Narya, but with different focuses, I'm guessing, though.  Particularly with the Archivist/Loremaster combination. The ECL21 adjustment has me thinking about things post-20, though.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 172):

This is not true. You need 21 class levels consecutively to be epic.
This message was last edited by the GM at 18:39, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

Personally, I would prefer to not tackle Epic spells at all at this point, craftable or not. They can be a lot of fun, but they're also a pain in the ass and a half to balance.




I did indeed, thank you for the correction. V has ruled on changing the warlock's alignment, however; even if I shifted her alignment to Evil (which would, quite frankly, be a huge stretch for her given her backstory), I'd also have to choose a different deity -- and, quite frankly, the only two that would really fit would be Boccob (N) or Wee Jas (LN).



V also noted this; quite frankly, I think I'm going to just let go of that path altogether rather than try to force it. It was a neat idea, though.

Back to the drawing board!
This message was last updated by the player at 19:05, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 175):

Aha, ok. I was wrong then. The question though was starting level so if we have 21 as starting level, one level is epic likely (unless you have LA on both sides or do not get any class to +20 level or PrC +10).

Maynitra: I meant epic items specifically regarding buying them (but able to craft if able to do it) than epic spells as nobody mentioned epic tier items (as some epic items can be very powerful).

Also, the Chaotic Good Lolth priestess was merely a joke reference to how extreme you can go in alignment differences with heretic of the faith feat (than an as a serious suggestion). But if your only choices are Boccob or Wee Jas then eldritch disciple is sadly not possible without GM's decision over it.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:11, Sat 15 Oct 2022.

By the way, I read this as:

Ghanek: 40pt buy only
Me: Roll 3d6+6, then 40pt buy if unsatisfied
Brookdale: 40pt buy only
Hathra: Roll 3d6+6, then 40pt buy if unsatisfied
Phorcys: Roll 3d6+6, then 40pt buy if unsatisfied
Eldryn: 40pt buy only
Narya: any point buy (only)
Vythisk: 40pt buy only

Seems like a close but clear win for 40pt buy (no rolling), right?

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 177):

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. And yes, I'd support the purchase of Epic tier items -- quite frankly, I'd even be ok with folks having them even without being able to craft them. But maybe with a maximum of 1 Epic level item, period.

In the past I've seen purchase limits -- for example, no more than half of total wealth on a single item, and all other items must be 1/3 (or even 1/4) WBL or less -- but I'm definitely not tied to that.

Also might be good to discuss whether combining items is ok, too.