In reply to Maynitra (msg # 178):

Yeah, I read the roll or 40 point buy the same as 'point buy' supporting votes but I tried separately counting the rolling ones as well.

Also good to discuss do we allow buying epic items (no need to craft them, as I initially suggested only those who can craft them can take them). Also, do we allow combine magic items, and is there a limit to how much money we can spend (like a max cost for items with 50% of your wealth)?

As item combining can get crazy as well. More so with crafters who break the mold bit but I did give my piece about it in allowing folks to start halfway next level and those who craft/spend XP spend from the said pool (and thus their trade-out is that they get later level-ups than those who don't spend XP).

I've played a Chaotic Neutral Priestess/Eye of Lolth.

I'd like to change my XP vote from minimum to median in order to break any deadlock

Narya if we are going to level 21 and you play something like:

Beguiler 11/Loremaster 10 // Rakshasa/Sorcerer 7 then you would have the spellcasting of a 21st level Beguiler and cast as a 14th level Sorcerer.

I was planning possibly taking advantage of that myself. I believe your familiar would only count as you being 7th level though.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 183):

One way to get a higher level of familiar (with that build) is trading away a familiar feature as sorcerer and then take (as beguiler) Obtain Familiar feat as beguiler. Then familiar traits are based on arcane CL of being beguiler + any arcane class levels in that side of gestalt.

Sounds like we can swap spells and talk about esoteric subjects!


Edited - if it helps with stepping on toes, if we have epic feats, I'll take epic ignore material components.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:14, Sun 16 Oct 2022.

Oh my goodness Narya, it seems we have similar tastes in literature

I thought so, as well.  Your idea of a library was very intriguing to me, particularly in light of the Stronghold Builder's Guide rules for research and knowledge checks.  See p. 25 for more info.  Master lots of books offer a +6 and the two sages (research assistants) working in the library offer another +2 or +4, depending.

I'll admit to having a certain affinity for the Netherese and their flying cities, so I'm seriously hoping this book and related ones make it into the mix.

Narya - nice build very thematic, except I think Agent Retriever requires you to have 24 Ranks in Gather Information and K: Planes? Which you can't get until 21st level. I don't know Narya's alignment, but if you are nongood maybe instead go Beguiler20/Mindbender1 and then go Agent Retriever next level?

Thanks for the positive feedback, everyone!

Vythisk, good point on Agent Retriever - for some reason, I thought I could qualify at the same level as when I gained the skills, but I see that is not the case.  If the DM sets us at epic levels or we later advance to them, I'll strongly consider mindbender as it looks great for a dip.

Cyril, we'll need to work together on the stronghold!

Ghanek, I was thinking that Narya and Ghanek traveled together, especially in earlier days. Narya may have been hunting for lore and offered her services for passage to an area along the way. If we are at a level where I can buy a Mirror of Mental Prowess without ruining the budget, maybe it resides on your ship, and was something we found together? They may have used it for some reconnaissance while traveling. We'll see if we can afford or find one, though...!

Seems reasonable, I think my ship's a Caravel.  I've scrapped my sheet though to wait and see what character creation rules are in place.

My current thoughts are:

Aventi
Side one: Scout somewhere between 12 and 20/ Horizon Walker 1-5/maybe invisible blade.

Side two: Swashbuckler ?/ Legendary Captain 9 or 10

So, should we get the Landlord feat was thinking of something like this:

Tower of Seric - a tall tower of stone and metal where craftsfolk work on projects to fuel the city. Weapons, Armor, and other stranger objects are produced by the workers of this city. At the heart of the tower is a small planar gate to the Plane of Magma - from that plane a continual pool of magma is siphoned and then used in various ways - heating the various forges of the tower, being slowly separated into its component parts to form glass, iron, and all of the other metals found in the magma.

This is also the personal work shop of Vythisk where he has his personal workshop and quarters.

Depending on resources might try to finagle it into being smaller, but able to slowly fly and be a mobile workshop.

Sorry for misunderstanding (towards GM), thought with ballot results we have decided the chargen stuff but it's just our opinion expression and GM finally decides what the stuff are (so we sort jumped the boat early :P).

Now, if we do start in 21 levels (with dual progression allowed to one side) my build would be;

Illumian male lich (lich template provided free as class feature)
First path: Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14/Epic True Necromancer 1
Second path: Dread Necromancer 20/Epic Dread Necromancer 1

Other build parts; Have Stasis Clone from Lord of Darkness supplement having been used via scroll (will be bought in chargen) and have venerable age bonuses to mental stats while physical stats are based on before middle age (thanks using younger body via gaining it with stasis clone created many years ago before becoming a lich).

Whether or not a Wee Jas worshipper, my cleric will be having Deathbound (domain found in libri mortis) and Death and Knowlegde Domains as cleric (having access to knowlegde domain from being a cloistered cleric than regular cleric).

Then either using undead mastery to qualify or take flaw to pay feat tax in taking corpsecrafter and then take following upragde feats (corpsecrafter and upragde feats from libri mortis); Destruction Retribution and Nimble Bones (thus all undead created via necromancy spell will be faster and explode in negative energy burst upon defeat, besides all them be tougher, stronger and more agile as well).

Other feats what thinking to get; Fell Energy (draconomicon), Fell Drain & Fell Animate (both from libri mortis). Then Spell Focus (Necromancy) for qualify for PrC and Quicken Spell. I may trade two earlier mentioned feats for extend spell and persistent spell (cause it's overall useful) or invisible spell from Cityscape or Death Devotion from complete champion.

Besides corpsecrafter feat, another flaw feat would be Voice of the Mage. As 1 mile communication is damn useful both leading mindless undead or commune specific manner to specific people. Was seriously tempted by name of the mage feat as well (would take it if no need take flaw feat for corpsecrafter feat tax).

Flaws would be reckless and frail (-1 AC and -1 HP per HD).

Epic feat would be Undead Mastery (multiply undead I can control by x10). In dread necromancer side it would be 4 + Cha Mod per dread necromancer level (not caster level). In cleric part it's 3 times caster level as cleric (which would be 16) and wizard side twice wizard caster level (also would be 16). But as true necromancer, I got necromantic prowess which adds +4 CL for necromancy spells (so albeit does not imply but could also be understood this bolsters number of undead I can control with animate dead and similar spells).

So, lots controlled undead (hundreds with cleric and wizard but possibly thousands as dread necromancer). More so dread necromancer with undead mastery can command more undead with control undead spell per casting (equal 2 + Cha mod per dread necromancer level), which is beyond the normal commanding capacity (albeit temporal and is 1 minute per CL, unless persistent spell is used). Forgot mention numbers above indicate HD cap of the undead controlled.

So, important books to me in chargen would be (besides core);
-Unearthed Arcana (specific ACF for cleric and use of flaws and naturally for gestalt)
-Libri Mortis (spells/a domain/feats and true necromancer prestige class)
-Draconomicon (one feat)
-Heroes of Horror (for dread necromancer class)
-Lords of Darkness (one specific spell)
-Complete Champion (some spells + one feat)
-Cityscape (one specific metamagic feat)
-Dragon Magazine (specifically Dragon #359, for 'of the mage' feats)

Then general useful books/sources (not just me but everyone, as suggestion);
-Complete series (warrior, adventurer, arcane, mage, champion etc)
-Magic Item Compendium (for items and updated items from earlier sources)
-Spell Compendium (updated spells from earlier sources)
-Environment books (Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Stormwrack etc)
-Unearthed Arcana (lots stuff)
-Stronghold Builder's Guide (for landlord feat and overall city/base building guidelines)
-Heroes of Horror & Battle (spells, feats and PrC's and rules for 'mass combat' in case of event of war or massive battles)
-DMG II and PHB II (both books having useful things, more spells, feats, ACF's and how establish and run a business)
-Plus any specific things (spells, race, prestige class, items etc) from official sourced materials (like setting books) from 3.0 or 3.5 edition, approved by players/GM

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In regarding one important factor which needs discuss; is combining magic items. Official ruling, the math goes in cost wise that items which fuse cost 50% of most expensive item in the mix extra (and must be items which occupy same slot).

I would say you can both craft and buy fused items, but do we want limit how many fusions are done or no limit? My end I would not mind it's unlimited (it after all costs gold). However it can get also silly if you fuse 10 or more rings into single ring.

So my suggestion is to balance the fusion process; the most expensive item 50% price is paid each time fusion is done.

Example; Ring of Spellstoring (50,000gp) fused with Ring of Protection+5 (50,000gp) costs 125,000gp to buy (and half if crafted).

If you combine Ring of Spellstoring (50,000gp), Ring of Protection+5 (50,000gp) and Wizardry III (70,000gp), such ring would cost 240,000gp (100% the cost of most expensive item added in, if combine four items it's 150% of most expensive item as added cost in the mix).
This message was last edited by the player at 11:30, Tue 18 Oct 2022.

As sepparated discussion, how other players would feel as hardcore necromancer I have discovered way create unique undead? I am speaking here that canonically my characther has discovered in this world/setting where we play how to create karrnathi skeletons and karrnathi zombies from Eberron setting?

Officially there is no rules exactly how create them (besides one PrC which allows creating one once per day), but creator of the setting has told Karrnath uses a variant of animate dead to create the karrnathi skeleton and zombies.

I would agree with UA and the Complete Series (especially Complete Adventurer) and I would obviousy like to include Stormwrack and perhaps Eberron or shining south so that I could consider an airship.

On further thought:

Side A:  if 18 - Swashbuckler 9/Legendary Captain 9 (Aventi)
         if 19 - Swashbuckler 5/Invisible Blade 5/Legendary Captain 9 (human, not Aventi)
         if 20 - Swashbuckler 5/Invisible Blade 5/Legendary Captain 10 (human not Aventi)
         if 21 - Swashbuckler 7/Invisible Blade 5/Legendary Captain 9 (Aventi)

Side B:  if 18 - Scout 12/Horizon Walker 6
         1f 19 - Scout 18/Horizon Walker 1
         if 20 - Scout 18/Horizon Walker 2
         if 21 - Scout 20/horizon walker 1

Will definitely buy a ship but the type of ship depends on level of build and money available.

If 18, it'll be a Caravel
if 19, it'll probably be a Dromond (and he'll probably be a Scarlet Corsair instead of a Legendary Captain)
1f 20, he'll be a human raft person and it'll be a collection of rafts and war canoes.
if 21, it'll be the best he can get - possibly three Caravels.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 192):

Agreed; I hadn't been meaning to interrupt or jump ahead in the process. Consider my stuff definitely a work in progress -- everything is still up in the air!

As far as books go, I'm looking at the Complete Series, plus the Players Handbook II; Lords of Madness would also be nice, for just 1 feat. Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium would round out my preferred book list.
I'm looking at

Drow Female
Side A: Focused Abjurer (3) / Master Specialist 11 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
Side B: Drow (LA2) / Major Devil Bloodline (3) / Duskblade 3 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Drow Paragon 3 / Mindbender 4

with Cleric Domains being Charm, Inquisition, and Knowledge, and using the UA wizard ACFs to swap out fighter feats for wizard feats and the wizard familiar for an animal companion.

In fact, if you want to see all of the details, you can check out a rough breakdown by level in place of my open character sheet.

On one side of the build, I'm very tied to the idea of an Cleric/Archivist/Dweomerkeeper, but need to fill this out with a few levels.  Maybe those last 5 levels could round out with Thaumaturgist.  This would make something like Wizard/Master Specialist/Mage of the Arcane Order/Loremaster on the other side, maybe with a few levels of Archmage as a cherry on top.  Ultimately, MofAO is how Cyril will advance post level 20.

Honestly, it's the very idea of specialist vs. generalist is what's thwarting me.  If I just abandon it for MotAO and Archmage, he comes out a wild generalist, but without as much flavor.  Still, given our focus on managing a city, the generalist might be a better, if less flavorful choice.

Thoughts?  Thanks!
This message was last edited by the player at 19:47, Mon 17 Oct 2022.

All this said, there's the "The Book of Immortals" for us to consider.  I'm new to that book, though, and not sure yet how Narrator_V means for it to be included.

In reply to Cyril Theodoric (msg # 197):

I do not know how even implement The book of Immortals as I have never read or used it. But if ask for opinions; I think playing bold is more fun and flavorful. A generalist is useful, yes, but there are other generalists in the group and a solid specialist can be a great asset as well.

Does anyone have books/classes/prcs/magic items/feats that they would really like to see banned? I am just curious if someone has a strong opinion on that side of the discussion.

Also, Cyril are you going to be worshipping Mystra - or try to port it over to another deity? If you went Master Specialist what would your specialty be?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 200):

Yes, Mystra, though Cyril leans to the Neutral instead of NG.  I'm trying to keep things relatively simple, though I'm not sure whether we'll even have access to FR deities or we're sticking with the default GH ones.

As far as PrCs & books, it looks like there's a pretty good list begun.  My preference leans to "official" WoTC published materials, particularly core and supplementals that're non-setting specific.  That would leave out Kalamar, Dragonlance, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk specific materials.  That said, I have *zero* interest in stepping on anyone's proposed builds.  I'm OK w/ core only all the way to anything goes/magic mart.

Did anyone say spell compendium yet?

Why yes, I see we did...
This message was last edited by the player at 23:09, Mon 17 Oct 2022.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 200):

I would say exalted deeds as the book has much-broken stuff in it, vile darkness has less so but some things are also broken. Also, ban chaos shuffle which is elder evil worshipper/cult stuff.

Also albeit not against the entire book of nine swords but there is some broken stuff there as well.

But should mention one broken stuff (what I read but did not plan do so) that can be done by the core is to use polymorph any object into any desirable corpse and then animate said corpse and use awaken undead spell this method easily gets you an balor corpse (without a fight or killing a balor) and then granting you wishes.

Off hand don't remember what other stuff to ban but likely comes into discussion once sheets start to form out and after the game starts and if someone has something broken it needs to be negotiated out.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 203):

V has already said no Bo9S.

As far as banning stuff... quite frankly, I am not fond of the BoED or BoVD, but if folks want to use some of the not-so-broken stuff from those, I'd be ok with it.

I think talking through things as they come up is the best way to handle things -- especially if we're open about what we're planning to do.

For example, Maynitra's power move is using Chain Spell on a targeted (greater) dispel magic, then hitting both the individual and their magical items all at once. In and of itself it's more annoying than powerful... but in support of a more combat-oriented group, it can provide a devastating opportunity. She's also got a lot of denial tricks -- as fitting for an abjurer. She doesn't do a ton of damage... but hopefully she can set things up for others to.

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Spoiler for From the last game (I think it's ok to share this): (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
In the previous version of this game she was basically the reason that a major devil ended up dead: greater anticipate teleportation delayed reinforcements long enough for us to be prepared for his arrival, and then dimensional anchor made it really tough for him to escape the beatdown being delivered by everyone else.

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Adding in Mindsight (from Lords of Madness) is a new thing to try, but if folks aren't ok with it I'm fine with dropping it. The only other question really would be about bloodline levels -- do they apply only to one side, or to everything? I don't think the latter would be broken, but the former would be in keeping with the other limits we've voted for.

Beyond these, I don't think I have anything surprising or otherwise head-scratching; please feel free to look through my build plan, however, and let me know if you notice something.