So, please pardon my asking, but as I finally have a chance to look at this, it seems character creation rules were never set in stone. Am I correct? We (you all) were all waiting for me to set them, before you all could fully set your sheets. I think many facets are guaranteed, but I need to make sure if sheets are still in Limbo. If the are, that's my second priority. Once second to reading shared history.
This message was lightly edited by the GM at 16:07, Tue 28 Feb 2023.

Yes we where waiting for you to made a few decisions and agree how characters would be created before starting.

Still waiting it seems.  I'd forgotten to be hnest but I see my sheet is incomplete.  I think it depends first of all on what level we are, am I right?

Indeed, char generation was not set in stone. We were sort of voting on it on other thread about what we preferred (including specifics on how the gestalt works and LA).

We played around, and I even drew up a sheet, but it was waiting for your final rules.  Nothing is set in stone yet!

In reply to Narya (msg # 5):

Indeed, also in thread where we discussed chargen we did discuss our shared history. Basically was the city was clouded in barrier/mystery, we entered, and faced an angry dracolich which nobody alone would be capable defeat, we teamed up and defeated the dracolich (for good? GM decides) and thus claimed the once glorious city which had turned into mysterious ruins over time.

Reasons for teamwork/working together can be past encounters but the key feature being that plainly rest of the world is freaking scared about us even individual level and leads lots of people to try to manipulate, avoid/exile/shun, or gaslight you default just because of sheer power 'levels' you possess.

So to avoid that or causing scenes, we decided to establish a city where we as individuals pursue our dreams without kings/queens or governments trying to interfere and stop us not because of who we are but rather what we are; in what being 'powerful adventurer who is atop that a gestalt'. Gestalt nature is something that folks IC are aware of and is a supremely rare trait (there are other gestalt and more powerful monsters but we are a publicly known group of gestalts together).

Yep, just waiting on final approval of chargen really. That and finalizing our shared history/roles in the city we were planning on ruling.

Making the first step, and posting my penultimate char gen rules. I haven't finalized it, but I will within the next 8 days.

Sorry to take up space here, but I thought it'd be best to keep all discussion about this in one place. (Feel free to delete if you'd prefer the questions someplace else!)


So, we'd be able to choose one or both of these rolls, but we'd pay for them out of our point buy allocation at 2 points cheaper? So if I rolled 9, 14, and 17, I could choose to pay 11 points to take the rolled 17 instead of the normal cost of 13 points? And likewise, I could pay 4 points for the 14? Or, instead I could just leave one or both, and pay for my choice of other stats as I wish? I think I understand the idea, but I wanted to make sure.


Edit: One other question -- will the bonus from bloodline levels apply to both sides or just the side they're taken on? For Maynitra it would allow her to count as a level 6 for her animal companion (instead of level 3), and would allow her Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil powers to act with at 10 levels instead of 7.

I can't answer this question without you quoting the exact wording that the bloodline provides to level.

Basically, for any class ability that's based numerically on level, bloodline levels add to class level for calculating effect.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:34, Sat 18 Mar 2023.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 11):

Up to GM to decide, but I myself would lean towards it counts only on the side where you take bloodline levels.

I hate to be a bother, but I don't have the books until at least next month. What else does the bloodline do? You're also welcome to PM me the information. I'm inclined to say only one side though.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 13):

Bloodlines are from Unearthed Arcana, 3.5 splat book. Close details on the link; https://www.d20srd.org/srd/var...races/bloodlines.htm

But short version; you pick a bloodline and you gain bonuses based on your overall char level. However, the amount of bonuses depends on the intensity/purity of the bloodline. This is measured in taking bloodline levels, which function bit the same as taking LA which happens during specific levels instead of immediately.

But unlike LA the bloodline levels, even if they do not provide anything themselves (no skills, HD, no BAB etc), the bloodline levels are considered 'levels' for gaining feats example and bloodline levels stack for caster level (not casting ability, so no spell slots or spells known but CL for calculating spell power). Also, it can stack other features like count towards cleric levels for some domain or class features (like domain which says 'xx functions cleric level number of rounds').

But bloodline levels can get interesting regarding multiple class stacking instances. For example, if you have wizard, sorcerer, and cleric levels and then get a bloodline level, the bloodline level is added to all those classes casting level. Also any save DC stuff which relates to having 1/2 in class levels, bloodline levels stack with that in every case you have.

With gestalt, it can get pretty whacky so thus why suggest it applies only one side of the gestalt tree (or if want bloodline benefits on both sides, then bloodline levels take a level on both sides in gestalt). But besides this function, you get benefits based on the intensity of the bloodline in levels 1-20 (major bloodline giving a benefit at every level).

Major bloodlines overall in the formula sense give +1 to three stats, 2-3 feats, and skill bonuses, and then some small resistances (usually DR 5/alignment at 20th level). Some include some thematic abilities like smite good for demon bloodline or bonus to AC (like natural armor +1).

If this is applicable to Maynitra, then I'll say one side only.

Now onto the Landlord feat. At 21st level, what exactly does that provide?

Landlord as a feat works like this;

At 9th level, it gives you resources only for building a stronghold which starts at 25,000gp. In moving to 10th level you gain 50,000gp which are counted as 'adding' to the original sum (meaning the net-gain is +25,000gp more than before).

Now in 20th level (which is the max) you have 800,000gp, which again is not money spend on gearing the char but only to build a stronghold.

However, besides direct funds, you get a special scaling system where if you invest your own money to the stronghold (separated from funds given by landlord feat), you get money doubled up (so if invest 800,000gp, you get 1,600,000gp for stronghold spending).

Now stronghold spending can include besides physical structures magical architecture, siege weapons in siege weapon placements build, any/all staff needed to run things and manage, food supplies or any materials needed to run operations (not regular business expenses to make a profit but materials needed keep business running the first place).

However, GM remains the ultimate authority on the validity of buildings and expenses uses as the 'money' given is resources and GM determines is it feasible. You may have 'money' to build an adamantine walls around the city, but materials must come from locally in some manner (or be transported), and thus be discussed with GM what is possible and what is not.

In regards to multiple characters having the same feat, the granted allowance (funds to build) are combined and fairly if everyone gets a feat as a freebie they spend only mostly their own stuff unless they partner up with someone. But even if four parties want to invest money to support someone's project, the investment that each contribute is doubled only once per donor (not quadrupled). Details in the below link;

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/fea...ord--1731/index.html

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 15):
That makes sense.


In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 16):
I did not see us having that feat (or Leadership) toward building personal power and/or strongholds exactly, but toward explaining the investments we've made in establishing organizations and headquarters within the city. So, for example, Maynitra's funds wouldn't be invested in a typical stronghold; instead, she'd focus on establishing and maintaining stuff like a judiciary (judges, advocates, clerks, scribes, library books, etc, as well as a building), a city watch (guards, barracks, holding cells, etc), and perhaps a library or school. She might have a home/house, but it would be pretty modest, or built into one of these other buildings. Not sure if that thinking makes sense, but that's what I had had in mind -- mostly because it makes sense that those things would exist.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 17):

You can invest the stronghold of all those listed things. Judges need courtrooms, city watch needs barracks and armories, roads need bricks to repair them after centuries or more desolation, prisons need cells and guard stations. Homes need windows and doors beside walls.

You can spend stronghold money to repair the city and furnish it basically and design part of it yourself. It can cover the salary of the judges, guards, and mages working for anyone in the city for city law and watch.

We likely have time skip after taking the city over so that time skip period can explain how we got city repaired or rebuild and how if any trade agreements was created. Unless GM rules we have the feat but need roleplay forming the connections and get access to the resources that the feat provides (basically start from day 0 after liberating the city or we start 1-2 years later).

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 18):

Yes, exactly. My reply was meant to expand upon yours rather than to signify disagreement.

Edit: I would also see the Leadership feat in the same light -- if the Landlord feat covered the salaries, Leadership provides the actual people.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:40, Sun 19 Mar 2023.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 19):

True leadership can cover people who are loyal to you. Who could work without a salary (if provide otherwise for their needs) that would be quite unfair if both salary hired people and followers who you do not pay at all. Leadership followers mostly would be just loyal folks who are an unlikely to rebel or betray you.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 20):

That's true; I guess I'd see Maynitra's followers as being loyal (via Leadership) to her and her cause (justice in the city), while also gaining salaries (via Landlord) to provide for their survival (and thus reinforcing their loyalty). The "extra" folks who are covered by Landlord but not Leadership (ie, the "salary only" folks) would likely be easier to bribe or otherwise corrupt against her, as they'd be motivated more by the money than by any sense of belonging/loyalty to the cause.

Other styles/frameworks of Leadership could/would look different; I imagine that undead followers wouldn't necessarily need payment, for example.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 21):

Indeed, I lean towards undead leadership instead just leadership for Hathra. But he will have some living followers as well but most are sentient undead. Some may include undead which have feeding needs (like vampires) so he tries arrange blood donations for them by citizens (giving them gold/payment for a donation of life essence or form unique currency which undead in city use for trading).

With an effective Leadership score of 33, my crew are only a fraction of my followers. I wonder what I'll do with the rest?  I also suspect that some of my specialists will be there for the money rather than from loyalty.

Be a commmodore and make your Cohort a sub captain and the rest members of your fleet, dockmaster, etc.

Anyways, important for character creation question - Vythisk (going to have to change that name) is a crafter and so would we have been around each other long enough for him to have crafted people's gear? Would that be allowed as a discount or not?

I rolled these but I'm not 100% sure what to do with them.  What are they for?
13:47, Today: Ghanek Brightwave rolled 18 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only with rolls of 6,6,6.  Character Generation Attribute rolls 3.

13:47, Today: Ghanek Brightwave rolled 17 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only with rolls of 5,3,6.  Character Generation Attribute rolls 2.

13:46, Today: Ghanek Brightwave rolled 14 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only with rolls of 4,4,1.  Character Generation Attribute rolls 1.

I rolled mine as well;

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 15 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 14 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 17 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

I guess it relates to stat points but unsure what is meant 'freebies' and such. Or what ceiling is meant to be as the overall explanation given as confusing? Anyways my chosen scores are 17 and 15.

Well yes, 17 and 18 for me I guess, but I'm actually quite happy with the point buy 40 build I already did

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 27):

If you used point buy to purchase an 18 or 17, you can swap that particular attribute out for the one that you rolled, and it will cost 2 fewer points than the purchased attribute. (In other words, you get a 2 point discount for having rolled that stat.) You don't have to use them, of course, but the option is there.

(This is assuming that I've understood V's option correctly.)

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 27):

Or wait...*theory emerges* maybe GM meant that we roll these three stats, pick the best of 2, and those two stats cannot be altered besides -2 to score in each (refunded the lost scores in point buy the difference). For example, lowering from 15 to 13 would mean I get +3 point buy scores added to 40 point buy.

The point being the remaining 4 stats we alter with point buy (as with 40 point buy can get 16 to all four with exactly 40pts) and we can decide to keep or lower the two other scores to either means to gain more point buy to modify rest ability scores (example turn one 16 to 17 get 3pts freed), or just keep them if we desire to keep the score.

The above occurs before applying any race, template, or bloodline bonuses.

Or Maynitra's theory is also possibly valid as well, that you get a discount to upgrade the score higher or get more points nerfing it down.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:04, Tue 21 Mar 2023.

The rolls determine a single instance of a discounted score.

Examples are nice, now that they're rolled.


16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 15 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 14 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 17 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.


So you have a few choices, Hathra.

First you can choose to use the highest scores. That's 15 and 17.

If you wanted the scores:
17 Intelligence (11 pts)
15 Charisma (6 pts)

That would leave you with 23 more points.

However, the disadvantage is that maybe you wanted an 18 Wisdom. With this schematic (above) you'd only have 7 pts between the remaining three two scores. So maybe you'd rather have the 14 and 15. You would have the 18 Wisdom (for 16 pts) but could get, say, a 15 strength (for 6 pts) and a 14 dexterity (for 4 pts). That leaves 14 pts for Intelligence and Charisma. So lets say you get 16 Intelligence (10 pts) and 12 Charisma (4 pts). It would look like this:

Str 15 (6 pts [-2 discount from 8 normally])
Dex 14 (4 pts [-2 discount from 6 normally])
Con --
Int 16 (10 pts [no discount])
Wis 18 (16 pts [no discount])
Cha 12 (4 pts [no discount])

The above are just arbitrarily assigned scores (except Con, since you're a lich). You could have the remaining five scores in the above scheme, and your could rearrange that, or choose a slightly different scheme.

The ceiling is that no matter how you roll, you will have at most a 44 point buy with some restrictions. It provides a small variation, but not one that can be hugely favorable. You will have at least a 40 pt buy, no matter what. You may just get a better rate, and have 4 extra pts, or maybe only 2 extra pts, or maybe you are attached to the scores and would rather skip the discount, as a 17 is far less valuable than a 16 and 18 in separate scores.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 30):

Aha, so that way it works. I likely go by your suggestion of the scores albeit I would place one higher score to charisma because as dread necromancer charisma is my key casting stat (like swap Str and Cha). I do need Int and Wis also because they are key stats in the true necromancer side of the build.

Most likely use my 4th level attributes to make all mental stats 18 and then apply the lich template so they are nicely even 20 in all three. Not perhaps super optimized but I knew mental stats were going be tough to deal with being a caster who uses all three mental stats for casting. But instead of going overboard with one stat, I aim for more consistent balance in them.

Ooh so if I chose 14 and 18 for a discounted total of 18 leaving 22 for the other four for an average of 5.5 each or for example two 13's and two 14's. But there are five increases available from 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th levels. Interesting.

I rolled rather low.  Am I right that if I assign a 13 somewhere, I receive +2 points to use?  Otherwise, the result is inferior to a straight point buy, so I may not use the other dice.

If you used a 13, it would cost you only 3 pts. I don't advise it, but if you want, you can buy two 13's, each at 3 pts, since you rolled two 13's.

Two 13s at 3 points left over would leave you with 34 points which equates to three 8s and one 10.  That leaves you with scoores of 16,15,15,15,13,13
But given ability increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th levels, you could increase this to four 16s and two 14s, which is pretty good all round but without a massively high ability.

Going to finalize the char gen thread.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 36):

*cheers*

So can start soon then, I PM'ed you the possible explosive synergy with my build to get my build approved (and ofc other players can point stuff out if it's too broken to their liking once I post full sheet).

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 35):

Thank you, all!  I don't have the ability to read carefully (EDIT:  right now) but may circle back with questions later.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:06, Wed 22 Mar 2023.

Does anyone know whether there's any published info on epic level Scouts?

I don't think so, but it would probably be something like Feat 24/28/32/etc and skirmish 21st +6d6 / +5 AC, 23rd +6d6 / +6 AC, 25th +7d6 / +6 AC, 27th +7d6 / +7 AC, repeating.

Yeah that was my assumption.

I'm now wondering whether I REALLY need the Landlord feat.

Well you could use it to make a 'stronghold' that is actually your ship.

Indeed, but I've been having a look at Stronghold builder and Diw it's hard.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 43):

Look at Arms & Equipment maybe?

I think I have the idea boss, thinking of a three part stronghold including sections amidst the rocks, beneath the water, and a submersible vessel.

You could have a stronghold that functions as the lighthouse of the city.

So, ok if I am understanding the rules correctly - I rolled 18,18,11. I am dropping the second 18.
So here are my stats before levels and racial modifiers.
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 14. So 5+8+6+14+1+6=40. Think that is how it works.

I will post my build below, the main thing that I want to address and that folks to pay attention is the 'synergy' between the prestige class and dread necromancer. To tell me is too cheesy to allow or okay. The intent is not to run combat encounters with +200 skeletons/zombies, at best my char may have 2-4 potent undead minions in personal battles.

But the main fun I aim here is to have the raw ability to raise loads of undead and able wield them in mass battles in a narrative sense (if there is going be a war scenario my character could bring loads of undead and acts as a necromancer general for the said army). So below math is mostly figure the canon/official math how much undead Hathra can command without using extended and chain casted command undead to mindless undead.

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14/Epic True Necromancer 1
Dread Necromancer 20/Epic Dread Necromancer 1

In ACF wise I aim for Cloistered Cleric so have access to the knowledge domain + 2 other domains (and some extra stuff). The 2 domains would be; Deathbound and Death domains.

Death is for the requirement for a true necromancer alone picked, however deathbound increases the limit of creating undead with spells to x3 times than double of my CL (meaning animate dead animates more undead when I use it but cap remains same). But later get a permanent desecrate aura via True Necromancer PrC, which doubles this amount (so the total amount is 8 HD per CL undead created by the animate dead or similar spell).

In the wizard, I would be a necromancer specialist, with Immediate Magic (cursed glance). Leaning on choosing enchantment and evocation as forbidden schools as s wizard.

True Necromancer adds +12 CL both cleric and wizard in one side, making char as 15 CL as both. However true necromancer adds +4 for necromancy spells/spell-alikes and when rebuking undead levels as cleric (and true necromancer stacks to rebuke undead by default). So will be 19 CL in both classes in power regarding necromancy spells and rebuke level.

Now, the amount of undead I can control just with the above is separately tracked by each CL. Animate dead as the wizard is pool-wise based on CL 21, cleric is as well. So combined I have 19 x 4 = 76 x 2 = 152 HD undead pool with animate dead and similar higher tier undead creation spells (but treated as two 76 pools than one pool).

Now we enter Dread Necromancer, since gaining undead master my pool is 4 + Cha Mod per CL instead (and it's only dread necromancer CL not other sourced CL). The pool is separated from the wizard because the dread necromancer is not a wizard (it's separated arcane but different class). In 20 level my pool with +5 Cha mod would be 180, but now comes the 'explosive synergy' part.



The above feature from true necromancer does not anyway indicate it's limited only to wizard or cleric spells; it applies to all spells and spell-alikes. So with that in mind, my CL for necromancy spells as dread necromancer would be 24 (and thus the pool of undead I control would become 216 HD). Rod of Undead Mastery would double all the mentioned pools.

Now, taking 21th level with epic PrC progression allows me to pick an epic feat. My choice would be Undead Mastery. It would mean a dread necromancer who is able to get +22 turning check (which is 1d20+Cha mod+any other mods), could get 28 max HD affected undead in turning check, but the key here is the ability to grab control of undead with 14 HD or less to become permanently commanded. Cap is normally 24 HD, but undead mastery extends that to ten times for 240 undead under rebuke undead/command function. Now the reason why cleric rebuke levels don't count as I think the dread necromancer and cleric rebuke undead do not stack, as despite one is arcane and the other being divine, their ability functions exactly the same. So this case 'highest level' is used as a measure for the pool.

Naturally, Hathra can have further network control via chained command undead spell cast on his minion's weekly basis.

Now all minions he has created via spells, would be affected by his undead mastery from dread necromancer (+4 enchant for Str, Dex, and +2 HP per HD), up to GM/fellow PC's ruling does class feature help qualify for corpsecrafter feats without needing to take corpsecrafter (which has exact same benefits as undead mastery and does not stack, besides the HP as it's an untyped bonus).

Now, the above covers just 'undead minion' math but asking is building okay on that front. As mentioned plan take undead leadership atop what minions I can control by spell/magic and by divine power.

In above math, CL raise from epic levels have not been included, all above were before 21 level.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:06, Thu 23 Mar 2023.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 47):

I think this is a fun build, personally.  Very flavorful.

In reply to Narya (msg # 48):

Indeed it is, also the entire purpose of undead mastery for permanent undead control with rebuking is for Hathra to act as 'jailer' type necromancer; he captures troublesome or dangerous undead (which are 14 HD or less) and captures them permanently to avoid them causing problems or as a method of punishment for deadly undead who had sinned lots in their immortal lives.

*Hathra casually rebukes a lich*

(the lich)"Impossible! How?! How you can have such power!"

(Hathra)"Cause Ruby Queen grants it to me as a means of capturing likes of you! Your crimes are unaccountable; you ruined a kingdom, and killed countless lives, as a means to build power for your phylactery. You now hand that phylactery over to me, I shall know where it is now on and in your next millennia, you will be doing scribe's duty in this library. Your work is to correct grammar of bardic artistic works from the local college."

(the lich)"Noooooo!"

(albeit in above would need having been 21 levels already and only able command 11 HD lich cause they got turn resistance +4).

Very focused. Did have one minor question - what is Epic True Necromancer going to look like? It seems like you would be getting Necromantic Prowess +5 at 15th level and your caster levels might work like Epic Mystic Theurge? Maybe. Hard to say really for that one.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 50):

I imagine necromantic prowess continues scaling up as does Major Desecration which extends desecrate range by +10'ft per PrC level (and ofc casting progresses like mystic theurge). Also, gain bonus epic feats same levels as epic mystic theurge does.

Aaargh.  I've just realised I can't draw.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 52):

??

Do you mean visual rendition?

I do.  And I'm not sure I can make my stronghold make sense with words alone.

Can Maynitra have an Abjuration version of mage armor and/or greater mage armor, so that Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor works with it? (This is actually suggested in the ability's description -- "Abjurant Champions rely on mage armor, shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor.")

Hey all - I've been pondering using xp on permanency/telepathic bond.  Would anyone like to pair up with Narya?  Or she could be a hub through which we forge multiple bonds (if the GM allows and others are willing to commit xp).

Hathra, how dangerous is it to have a telepathic bond with you :-p?

In reply to Narya (msg # 56):

Besides that he is undead lich, meaning he never sleeps and he may accidentally mentally grumble arcane or religious information or burial practices and customs occasionally?

Not dangerous otherwise, but I was planning to get voice of the mage so my lich can commune to anyone in 1 mile radius/distance. So he may not necessary need it unless go farther than 1 mile away.

That raises the question, which the DM will need to answer. How are we dealing with Mind Blank effects? Do they prevent the operation of telepathic type bonds? I have seen DMs rule in either direction on the question, and as it is clearly relevant, I figured I would seek clarification.

In reply to Eldryn Duskryn (msg # 58):

We had extensive discussions about this in other game regarding mind blank, undead immunity to mind-affecting, and telepathy. Overall nothing in telepathy ability itself mentions or tags it as mind-affecting. Albeit some items or spells/powers (like helm of telepathy) can deliver mental effects through telepathy but telepathy effect itself is not mind-affecting.

Also, any instance of telepathy granting spells or powers has no save nor tagged as mind-affecting but they check for spell or power resistance. Whereas normal telepathy is Supernatural and thus bypasses spell or power resistance just being a supernatural effect.

Overall what other games ruled (in favor of players) is that telepathy works for undead and mind-blank people but mindsight (the feat) is blocked by mind blank effect.

Ofc our GM can rule differently.

Ooh, I think I am in that game Hathra (Shidra)
This message was last edited by the player at 17:03, Fri 24 Mar 2023.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 60):

So we both there then :)

I think Narya would find that fascinating.  I am working on envisioning a library just for Knowledge:  Religion (Undead).  Narya will have a series of libraries, each with its own theme and decorations.

In addition to being a spymaster, Narya is a shapeshifter and may have had Hathra's tutelage in adopting more exotic options.

I anticipate having enough funds for a second telepathic bond.  Anyone else want to join?
This message was last edited by the player at 00:02, Sat 25 Mar 2023.

Ok, telepathic bond to you then.

Now question; should I take Ghostly Visage familiar which is one canon options for dread necromancer, albeit it's mind-affecting immunity does not matter at all to Hathra but I imagine in past he acquired it as means ward his mind while he was alive and now familiar acts more as either incorporeal scout or function as 'face' for Hathra when he wants have facial expressions (and ofc fear paralysis power is pretty damn nice).

Or alternatively, as many GM's have been allowed swapping regular familiar choices to specialist wizard feature for necromancer from unearthed arcana; Skeletal Minion.



Only what I have seen anything what helps in 'creating' undead (like undead mastery, corpse crafter feats or even desecrate effect) all apply to familiar besides above-listed stuff, and same ruling you cannot use awaken undead is same as you can't cast awaken to animal companion). No other familiar perks/benefits (no feats etc unless custom epic feat to improve the minion further).

But with skeletal minion I can arm and gear it and thus be functional meat shield which accompanies Hathra around.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:54, Fri 24 Mar 2023.

OF those two if you can get it probably the skeleton. Though surrounded by undead I think maybe the humble Imp should be considered. I mean you need someone to talk to in your horde of undead. A snarky evil Imp literally sitting on your bony shoulder.

True imp could be useful, but then again I throw lots negative energy and other unfriendly stuff vs living around me and close range in regular basis, so imp may not survive long near the lich in epic levels or Hathra need hold himself back just sake of his familiar if he decides go negative energy nova options :P

Hmm, looks like I need more than a fleet of U-boats to hold my own in this crucible.

Imp would be a downgrade for that particular use yes. On the other hand it is a minion who is intelligent and thus can be sent off with some of your minions on a separate mission as a subcommander. Honestly, though I was just going off the assumption Hathra was going to be using mostly mindless undead as minions so an Imp would be one he could talk too.

Ghanek you going with something like Swashbuckler//Scout still?

Yep Scout 21 on one side and Swashbuckler 6/Horizon Walker 1/Legendary Captain 9/Invisible Blade 5 on the other. Thing is, at these levels, non magic users get left behind unless I'm very much mistaken.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 68):

Usually yes, unless going specific build or able to provide hefty dmg or be a skill monkey (able to do epic skill checks).

Ghanek, I am happy to provide spell buffs to you if there's any you'd like me to earmark (archivist/beguiler).  Also, one should never underestimate a scout.

Would you like to pair up with telepathy as with Hathra and me?  I'll pay the xp.

Happy to do so, Narya.  Thank you.

That is an interesting build - you are going to wind up with something like +16 BAB at 20th level with that right?

No, bigger than that because I adjusted the order somewhat on the non scout side. I actually have a BaB at 20 of +20 as follows:

Left          Right                 BAB  Reflex  Will  Fortitude
Scout 1       Swashbuckler 1        +1   +2      +0    +2
Scout 2       Swashbuckler 2        +1   +1      +0    +1
Scout 3       Swashbuckler 3        +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 4       Swashbuckler 4        +1   +1      +0    +1
Scout 5       Swashbuckler 5        +1   +1      +0    +1
Scout 6       Horizon Walker 1      +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 7       Legendary Captain 1   +1   +0      +2    +2
Scout 8       Legendary Captain 2   +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 9       Legendary Captain 3   +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 10      Legendary Captain 4   +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 11      Legendary Captain 5   +1   +0      +0    +0
Scout 12      Legendary Captain 6   +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 13      Invisible Blade 1     +1   +2      +0    +0
Scout 14      Invisible Blade 2     +1   +1      +0    +0
Scout 15      Legendary Captain 7   +1   +0      +1    +1
Scout 16      Invisible Blade 3     +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 17      Legendary Captain 8   +1   +0      +1    +1
Scout 18      Invisible Blade 4     +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 19      Legendary Captain 9   +1   +1      +1    +1
Scout 20      Swashbuckler 6        +1   +1      +1    +1
Epic Scout 1  Invisible Blade 5     +1   +1      +0    +0
TOTAL                              +21  +19     +14   +19

EDIT:  Added table after double checking.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:43, Mon 27 Mar 2023.

I've almost wrapped up my design.  Narya is close to what is already in open sheets, with some adjustments and to fill in details.  I'll likely post an update by this coming weekend.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 73):

I think we shifted to using fractional saves (and BAB, although it looks like that won't matter so much for your build).

Ghanek I can understand why you might like Invisible Blade - but a ship's captain who is waving around a dagger as their main weapon is just an odd visual.

Ghanek have you thought maybe something like this:

Swashbuckler/Horizon Walker/Rogue/Legendary Captain - Rogue takes Penetrating Strike which takes away Trap Sense, but let's your Sneak Attack work at half strength on pretty much anything. Take Daring Outlaw to get better Grace and Sneak Attack.

On the other side something like:

Scout11/Ranger10 - Scout taking Dungeon Specialist - this costs you evasion and fast movement, but gain climb speed and other things relating to climb (while the fluff is climbing walls, I see this as you climbing the rigging of a ship and fighting while climbing up a rope) and then take Aquatic Ranger and then either Spell Reflection (losing evasion but letting you shoot spells that miss you back at the caster) or Shape-Changing (Wildshape to Small or Medium, plus fast movement +10 ft like barbarian and lose evasion) Take the Swift Hunter Feat to gain skirmish and favored enemies as though the two stack.

If you take 10 levels of Ranger and 6 of Swashbuckler you could wind up with a BAB of 19.

A much wilder choice would be to slag Scout completely. Since as you said non spellcasters tend to fall behind here is an interesting idea:

Beguiler 11 / Swiftblade 10 - you gain illusion/enchantment spells, can feint in combat, and Swiftblade ties into being a very fast swordsman.

I've been having a look at a somewhat different build.

Scout 21 on one side and Ranger 11/Leviathan Hunter 5/Invisible Blade 5 on the other

This gives me (with the right build)  BAB21, F18, R16 and W10 and it also gives me a different reason to come here in the first place.  I wanted to harvest a trophy from a dracolich.  Repairing the harbour became secondary. It also gives me a limited number of spells

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 78):

Can sound awesome concept go leviathan hunter and dracolich hunted down cause you wanted to kill it as a challenge. Then you restore docks but may also have a guild hall similar to Slayer's Take which involves running a mercenary/adventure guild which specializes in taking down monsters for hire.

Ghanek I think we are using Fractional BAB which would give you 19 BAB by level 20th.

So how does it work then?  I thought it meant things go up by a fraction every time rather than a fraction from each side.  If it's the highest from either side, Ranger, LH and IB all get +1 every level so it's 21.

Otherwise... umm
okay 15 on the Scout side and 21 on the other side averages to 18 at 21st level.

Sorry, you are right. I for some reason thought Invisible Blade was using the mid BAB. So yeah 21.

Been busy, but I've made progress on Maynitra; I've tweaked her levels slightly and added Sanctified One of Wee Jas and Paragnostic Apostle. Right now I'm thinking that her stronghold will be the site of a rebuilt noble's complex (which had been very damaged by the dracolich), and will house (at the very least) a Temple to Wee Jas and the Judiciary building. I'd also like to have space for scribes, a law library, holding cells, a barracks for guards, and so on -- but we'll see how far the money goes. (I have not started on this yet.)

I am always open to suggestions, of course!

What do you see as the progression for Master Specialist?

Is Paragnostic going for arcane or divine casting?

I am also puzzled by the second level of Mindbender - I can understand the first, but what do you want out of that class beyond Telepathy?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 84):

I guess it's long-term strategy and likely finish mindbender in the first epic-level section. Albeit abilities it provides unlikely work same level foes but lower level, it gives nice flavor ability.

But for spy, though I imagine Psibond Agent would have been quite a clever pick if go random prestige classes.

Epic Master Specialist:
1. Expanded Spellbook at every 3 levels past 2nd (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, etc)
2. Caster level increase at every 3 levels past 6th (6, 9, 12, 15, etc)
3. Caster level continues to advance (no new spells per day)
4. Minor School Esotericae continue to advance as listed (so, for minor abjuration, continue to increase competence bonus to dispel checks by 1/2 class level)
5. Bonus feat every 4 levels starting at 13th (13,17,21,24, etc), taken from the Epic Wizard Bonus Feat List

That's a proposal, at least.



Arcane -- it's increasing duskblade caster levels.






Flavor is the bulk of it; while it's definitely not useful for equal level foes, it gives her a definite edge against the weak-willed. It's basically her version of the Jedi Mind Trick. I recognize that it's definitely not an optimal choice, but gestalt allows for that.



Maynitra isn't really a spy, however -- she's thematically more of an Inquisitor -- so she doesn't have the prerequisite sneak attack to qualify for it. Even if she did, however, I don't know about the power point reserve, as in the past V has not really allowed psionics. I was tempted to either finish out Sanctified One or take another level of Paragnostic Apostle, but (as above) Mindbender felt more flavorful for the setting.

I'm going to change Ghanek's build because Legendary Captain doesn't really work. I'm thinking now of Scout12/Shadowdancer 9// Cleric 12 (of Istishia)/Loremaster 9 aiming eventually for Perfect Wight or Epic Infiltrator on the Scout side and High Proselytiser on the other.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 87):

Sounds like valid paths to me.

Ghanek: Looks good. Might want to take a gander at Divine Oracle as you pretty much meet the requirements by default on your way to Loremaster. Has some good stuff. Also for thematics (not a particularly good PrC) is Elemental Archon.

Maynitra: Had never considered what an Epic MS would look like but yeah probably about that. Considering your builds so far have very little doubt you have already considered them, but if not for some reason Mind Domain and the Mindisght feat. It is odd that nearly all of the Inquistor like classes are LG - I don’t think they now what an inquisition was when they made all of those classes.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 89):

I agree that Inquisitor should be Lawful only PrC; they were all about strictly following the laws of the church than being 'good' exclusively.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 89):

Hmm, this is interesting Vythisk and has the advantage of allowing me to take both prestige classes at level 10 instead of level 12 if I use Divine Oracle instead of Loremaster, even though some of the gains I already have with Scout.  I'll give it a think.

Divine Oracle is an interesting PrC and fits for a diviner/knowledge person as well loremaster. Its features are damn good for defense wise (ability to do evasion and uncanny dodge stuff even heavy armor and the 'never surprised' factor). Plus exclusive domain is granted only by said PrC.

Hmm, I wonder.  Since Ghanek will already have Uncanny Dodge from Scout, presumably it becomes improved uncanny dodge at Divine Oracle level 4 and then adds a further four levels to the level of the rogue who can flank him at level 6, so that at level 11 with 10 scout levels, he could only be flanked by a 29th level rogue or better?

You also get it from Shadowdancer. I think it would probably just stack on one side so you would need a Rogue 25 to get past your Scout/Shadowdancer side.

Also since you get evasion and improved evasion from Shadowdancer, maybe think about trading out evasion from Scout - have two acf for that. Dungeon Specialist which costs you evasion and fast movement to get you a climb speed and let you gain bonus for climbing and retain Dex while climbing. Or Spell Refelction - costs only evasion, but let's you reflect back spells that miss you on the attacker.

Possibly, but I can't see Ghanek as a Dungeon specialist.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 95):

How is bout being able to deflect spells back to enemies if they miss hitting you?

Honestly, first saw it for Ghanek as him climbing the rigging of a ship or climbing up the wood sides of one to assault it from the water, and fighting in the close rooms of a ship then a underground dungeon.

Spell Reflection would also work - a mirror of water reflecting a near miss back or a shadow swallowing a spell to vomit it back at it's caster.

Draft 2 of Narya is done. I did not list all spells known for archivist, as it is a long list.  She does not qualify for Epic Ignore Material Components - we are one level short; I will save that epic feat.

Narya - quick question how do you have Harper Mage stacking onto a Divine Caster class?

I'm one level short of becoming a High proselytizer and either three levels short of becoming an epic infiltrater or six levels short of becoming a perfect wight.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 99):

The table says "+1 level of existing spellcasting class," but the text description says "arcane."  I skimmed the text and went by the table.  Anyone up for a retooled divine-flavored version, so I don't have to go back to the drawing board?

Master Harper? Not a complete overlap but not that different and it allows divine spellcasters.

In reply to Narya (msg # 101):

As mentioned master harper fits. But if want some other 5-level divine supporting prestige classes which fit for espionage;

-Completing Lore Master is good choice. Has even epic progression canonically.
-Paragnostic Apostle (fits for lore geek divine caster)
-Divine Disciple (grants domain and become native outsider at 5th level)
-Harper Agent (-1 casting level, but gain bunch save bonuses and higher skill points and more skills)
-Runecaster (10 levels PrC but specializes in casting divine spells using rune magic; can allow creating one-use items, permanent effects in area etc)
-Hand of the Adama (reflavor it but needs LG or LN alignment, become a divine spellcaster cop basically who can see through illusions/lies)

Still on the rebuild and I've decided I'm going for Loremaster rather than Divine Oracle after all but on the Scout side, I may take a couple of levels of bard.

Sorry for screwing up your build. I mean Harper Mage gives you 3 feats - two of which help gets you into Loremaster and the Eschew Materials feat.

Pure fluff is just Harper Priest - it has blessing like Loremaster has secrets, but eh.

No worries - I don't have as much free time these days, and I'm bound to overlook a few things.  I am contemplating all loremaster.  It feels about right.  Besides epic is epic.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:07, Tue 04 Apr 2023.

In reply to Narya (msg # 106):

Indeed, even if you do not have many 'features' in epic levels in PrC, the ability to get bonus epic feats should not be underestimated.

Okay, here goes...
Side One:  Scout8/Rogue2/Shadowdancer11 aiming eventually to Shadowdancer19 and then Perfect Wight
Side Two:  Cleric 12/Loremaster9 aiming eventuallly to Loremaster 12 and then Epic Infiltrator.
Oh yes and I will take Spell Reflection instead of Evasion for the Scout.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 108):

Looks solid to me.

Ghanek - you might want to up it to Rogue 3 - to lose trap sense and gain Penetrating Strike - the ability to do half Sneak Attack damage to things immune to it. *side glance at Hathra*

Not sure how you are going to get Perfect Wight - you are going to be very short on Sneak Attack. Rogue + Epic Infiltrator is not going to make it. Even if Skirmish is ruled to count not going to be 10d6.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 110):

Damn you're right.  I'll have to be Epic Infiltrator 21 by which time I'll be a 35th level shadowdancer by which time I'll be able to shadowjump about 60 miles.

Oh well, not to worry, it'd be kinda cool to be an epic shadowdancer and the James Bond of Narya's organisation.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:33, Tue 04 Apr 2023.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 110):

No offense taken, I understand there are undead and other creatures who are more malevolent than I and need to be eliminated. But always arm up with more than one trick in your bags when dealing with the undead.

Technically my shadows are undead are they not?

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 113):

Yes, but they won't help against creatures that are crit immune as often they are immune to strength dmg caused by shadows. But shadows can work very well as spies for you.

No, but there may be occasions when I ask you for negative energy to heal them, since my own positive energy is likely to do the opposite.

Meanwhile, I've posted a picture to represent my citadel.  I can't draw so I nicked Mont St Michel from the Normandy Tourist Board and added text to show the differences.

I am feeling like Orthanc from LotR movies.

Also are Duergar a thing in this world? I am thinking Vythisk was raised by a city of duergar.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 116):

Duergar aren't super rare, so I'm guessing V would have no issue with that. (Only sharing this because I know V is going through tough times right now and may not be checking the game.)

Should we design our own Cohorts and followers?  I note the feat says we can TRY when it comes to cohorts to get one of a particular race, class and alignment but I have no idea how to find out whether we succeed or not.

Do I read rightly that Leadership and Landlord feats come gratis?  Bonus feats in a sense?  Thanks!

Wait, they do?  Cool... now what do I spend those free spaces on?

Leadership and Landlord feats: Both. Followers and cohort get NPC wealth for level. Thsi reflects the investment put into them. It is for their assets. Followers are unnecessary to spend wealth on, but if you want to, use a running tally. Cohort should have wealth spent, unless you want the cohort to be eschewed to background. The feat is free, and so won't be forced upon you.

I wasn't sure whether that means they're OK/acceptable or should be included in the build.  Then there's a bit at the end about 'the feat is free'.  I wasn't certain which of the two feats that was, or maybe both, since the subject changes from plural to singular.

Both feats are free but no need forced to take them if do not want to. In regards gear, it can mostly be skipped to followers but cohorts get NPC wealth to use to gear themselves.

That was quite worrying until I looked it up and found that a 16th level NPC's wealth was only 77,000 not the 26,000 that a PC would get.

Hathra is correct. Skip to the red "ANSWER" point if you want the short version or "TL/DR". I suggest you read it all at some point, but if you're wanting the succinct answer it's note below.

Quite frankly, I know a lot about D&D, but my "expertise" comes from about 40 to 50 people I've played with. I have tried, and twice succeeded (many, countless, times failed) to GM on RPoL. I see one common failing that I have solution to. My failing it I give out lots of awards, be they XP to level quickly, leadership to gain accessories, and what I think "should" be common, which is treasure by level. The last matters "less" so at epic, but at mid level 11th or so, I see GMs not using page 54 of the DMG, and instead just looking at 235 (IIRC--I still don't have my physical books) one is capitol, or investment, the other, the former, if gross gain. Too often GMs assume since 3rd level character should have 3,000, that 4th should have the 235 amount, which is wrong. 4th should GAIN gross what's on pg 54 (again IIRC the page). The end result is this, it can be work to mark down every treasure item, purely mundane but with character. I give out alcohol, sweets, masterful containers, designers clothes, etc... this have innate value. That is, they are worth to sell as liquid assets, they are worth what they are to sell as they are to buy. They are in high demand, but players often wonder...do I need to keep this? Is it going to be pivotal later in the game, like a piece of a puzzle. People can hang onto "neat" items I mean to be just that "neat", but they hang on because they assume it's got to have some purpose. My solution is to give out containers if a I give out ornate keys. I give out maps of things that give a +2 survival or knowledge to region, that by rights is only really useful to what it is clearly useful at.

So onto the big "offenders" XP first. I always give generous XP. In one game, the group gain three levels, for having had very deep conversations, plans, and "Sorties" that weren't conmbat but only four combats, each a brutal and very long affair. I did this because I wanted the players to know a few things. I award what I appreciate. I appreciate interaction. I appreciate cooperation. I appreciate beauty, and creativity. I also appreciate participation. The problem is some people got tired of doing the paperwork so my solution is and had been, don't level if you don't want to. It is literally work, and quite frankly I'm not a master of craft. People have said I am, but I know I'm not. I have both the statistic of every single Epic GM to have dead game early on. I also have my own history of short lived games. So at no point do I watn player fretting "Is this...is this WORTH my time?!" or "IS this a good investment of my time" It's for fun. I do a lot of work, but I as GM get to pick and choose, veto or redact what work I do. As player I want you all to know if something is given, it doesn't have to be taken. It can still be claimed later. I hate to give an immersion breaker, and I hope it won't be that, but in certain ARPGs, you can get mailed items to you. It's up to you to accept them. Because online ARPGS can't store them indefinitely, they expire, but that isn't the case there. If I give out ten levels in two RL years (for reference look at this post date link to a message in another game) you may find yourself say "naaaah. I'll do that later" which I'm saying, is fine. If you are in a combat, or serious non-combat conflict, I may not you level then (I may if I think it's easy or fitting) but you can start the process and then just apply the changes when the conflict is over. That said, I will count you, for purpose of "fair" challenges at being the XP level. I will not however, award new XP on your projected level. So you have an incentive, something that helps you justify that waiting, for not leveling. It's not optimal, but it allows that options to not be ALL downside. Because, like I gave the example earlier, if you gained ten levels, and five of your are 31st, but two of you are closer to 23rd, that affects the party level! Which means there will be MORE XP. Is is not mostly upside, but it...it is some small consolation to say "It's alright to not want to do work for a game if you're player and not the GM". I never want it to be like grinding. I always want the optimal decision to be to use what you have, but I want it to be considered that there are other options.

Finally we get to your question.

ANSWER

---

Followers can be work to make sheets for. Cohorts can be work. Making a stronghold are also quite involved. I won't allow you to get an alternative freebie, but you can hold off until later to fully develop these feats. It's work, and I want you to weigh if it's fun, a plus, or more of a "I have it, so I guess I have to do this. *sigh* Wish I didn't have to...but I guess I am". In this case, unlike other situations mentioned, these are "free" so they don't affect the projects difficulty. They do, however, affect the scope and scale. Scope, because if we're doing city planning, you may have fun working with followers, and managing structures. If you don't develop that, you may have to sit idle while others that did get to play that out. For scale, unless you're like Hathra, who also has undead as part his inborn character power, when mass combat or simultaneous combat occurs, you may only be able to participate in half the threads.

---

The focus will also be twofold, the plot and the PCs. NPCs have backseat, be they played by you all parttime, or solely my playing. Events will be cues to prompt action, that is not planning but acting, taking...doing things!...taking action. Not gonna lie, there will be combat in this, so action does also mean high investment battles.

So if you see nothing else, it's about you wanting to work on these aspects. To be rewarded for doing that, but remaining focused on the PCs as group of only you all.

*Double post incoming*

So my friend I had won;t be joining us. There's been a divide. Will already stepped out quite awhile ago, but Anne, a friend I had, was going to play a Red Wizard but never put in any input and has...removed herself from the game.

So I will probably make an NPC that will fill the spot Ethan was going to, but have them be more muted. My problem isn't lethality, although that is an issue too. It's purely that I already did the math and divides and...whew***I just don't want to backtrack. I'm too tired to redo it. When we get to the point I have the first time jump,  I will probably remove them unless they're enjoyable to see and have with you all. Enjoyable for me, and enjoyable for you, at least a good amount of you. If they're not enjoyable, I'll remove them, or have them defect and fight you all to get killed as a dramatic conclusion. We'll see if and when that occurs. The game may die before then. I just wanted to let everyone know those here will be joined by an NPC, but not a "DMPC". It's just easier for me that way. I have spread sheet, and the way it's formatted it's easier to fill it then zero it out.

Awesome, so I can build a 16th level Hadozee swashbuckler and master of the Sun on the Waves and an assortment of followers, some of which are characters but most extras. Think this is going to be fun!;)

Maybe Shadow/Emancipated Spawn3/What ever other class you might want to add.

Also Ghanek if you want to put it all into Dexterity and go crazy that way - Void Incarnate. With a single Epic feat  you should qualify for that one.

Gets you Mettle and then Improved Mettle. You can pretty much turn all of your saving throws into Improved Evasion Reflex throws. Get one of the auras that add Charisma to your saving throw and you could be nearly immune to anything that requires a saving throw.

Thanks Vythisk but Void Incarnate won't work for me because Ghanek is Lawful (it's the only way Aventi make sense without the insistence on the Aventi twelve virtues, it's just mechanics, and where's the fun in that?)

Besides, I only have a Dex of 21 at the moment.

I have a further question.  Should we include the sheets of our Cohorts and any followers we're doing sheets for with our own sheets or separately.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 130):

Good catch! I'll make a cohort thread. Then a thread for each character, that has only their followers' sheets. I'll do that sometime. Going to start now, but may be interrupted.

Should we include noted on strongholds in the process of being built in the Building Ivost discussion?

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 132):

Can be helpful, so others know what is already 'covered' or may suggest team up invest resources together (make it bigger/better).

Okay... I'll add in what I have so far.

I misquoted the source I thought they were from, I meant Races of Destiny, but thankfully that wasn't correct either.

So they're basically better versions of the ones I was thinking of. Same idea, human sub-type, sea people. Aventi simply aren't as reliant on water, like...the Seafolk? are.

A player in the waiting, whose RL life is far worse than mine, sent me some links several months ago, and so I should probably just use those resources, rather than squander them. I'm probably never going to see my physical books again anyway, but either way, I need to just use what I have. This has been a major hang up, me not having the source material physically. I have them digitally though, so I'll start the process...tomorrow or the next night.

Stormwrack has several races of Seafolk but few riverfolk. Ghanek's idea is to lead a group away from the sea and back to the land but not by raiding coastal communities and making enemies. The lake will be the promised land.

Narya - looking over your sheet you are going with Wild working with Shapechange? I am unsure whether to go with some type of Wild Armor myself or just grab a Ring of Protection and some Bracers, so what do you think - Alternate Form also work with Wild?

I want to pause the conversation on wilding armor, for two events. I want to wait for Narya to be back from their week absence, and for me to review the spell shapechange and the slots in Magic Item compendium.

And also complete arcana introduced a rule errata for any spells which change your shape (introducing polymorph keyword).

But if go directly by wording; wild armor enchants work only with wild shape, as enchant refers to class feature specifically. Wild Clasp also is similarly worded.

Ofc GM can house rule allow it to work with any polymorph effect. But a good alternative is to get bracers of armor and just use arms and gear guide (3.0 splat) ruling that you can add armor enchantments on bracers of armor so long they are not gp cost related (like silent moves or energy resistance).

I was just trying to decide between Wild Armor and Bracers of Armor....

Now to think about my cohort.

I'd say, that if you have wild shape, wilding armor is better than bracers of armor.

Since I'm the GM, and I happen to be a user that tracks empirical data of face to face games since 2004, I can say you have a 92% chance of wilding being better, empirically.

I wasn't directing my comment at you alone, Vythisk, I was more trying to avoid what Hathra would write, which is what I was trying to avoid...and that backfired. Your question cited and was directed at Narya, which was why I wanted to say that Narya was gone. My hope was that what Hathra pointed out, would not have been mentioned...and it was. Which I'm face palming at.

Narya may log in, but probably won't post. When they do, I'll discuss with them the use of Wilding armor, to prevent miscommunication.

Again though, if you want to know the type of game you're playing, I can tell you wilding armor will be better...if you plan to use it with wild shape.
This message was last edited by the GM at 10:13, Fri 14 Apr 2023.

Yeah, I got that. Which is why I am moving on to making my cohort.

 Torn between something like a dwarf or something weirder. Like a pseudodragon Archivist.

Question here:  Is my cohort allowed leadership? I only ask because Great Captain would be a useful feat for him. Not essential but useful.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 142):

With respect to cohorts, are we using 40pt buy (without rolling) and non-gestalt?

I second that question.  That was my assumption.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 143):

No, I don't think cohorts should have leadership. I'd just assign some of "your" followers under them.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 144):

Correct! 40-pt buy, non-gestalt, no free feats.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 141):

I certainly understand the RAW on wildshape-related items and always happy to abide by any GM ruling. Natural spell would be another example of an item that would need clearance or a quick nix during a final sheet review (I have not submitted yet).

I will privately discuss this if you'd prefer. Simply put, it will be easier for me to keep things straight with RAW, with a few (written) exceptions.

There are some very neat divine abilities that will eclipse the need anyway (if we get that far).

Out of curiosity, do we have any strength based characters here? Cohorts or PCs.

Not me boss.  Not Ghanek (Dex Int) and not Garth (Cohort) (Dex Wis)

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 149):

Not here, either.

Garth's porpoise is probably pretty strong cause it's a whale.

Unfortunately what I'm referring to is a class level, or certain creature type, only feat tree.

Dexterity and Constitution get some good trees, in that order (Str, Dex, Con). These feats correspond to the disparity that non-spellcasters have with casters, and at around 39th, it might as well start back at 1st. Even with ESC, and free metamagic, casters are limited to slots. They have breadth, but non-spellcasters; especially those like dragon shaman, fighter, and rogue; get "innate" abilities that spellcaster cannot touch until much later.

---

Spoiler for a rough rundown: (Highlight or hover over the text to view)
Rogue's (or other Dexterity Characters) can steal abstract things; a name, a person's love, things like that. Constitution can apply all kinds of immunities, and because basically no class uses max constitution (hence Dragon Shaman mention) you can even get strength and constituion boosts too. Strength, however, is so very compensating. You start adding strength in iterative multipliers. First with *2 strength (modified by hand requirement) but eventually *8. Think about just a 50 strength character...that's quite, quite high, but it's doable by 39th. That adds around +200 damage to EVERY strength based attack! Damage also matters more, and "save or lose" spells look like many monsters gain Chosen Mystra immunities. That is, many spells just don't work; at all; period. Well...that is against the creature in question. It's not a laundry list, but it discourages the kind of spells you could formerly load up on and just "one spell, one kill/incapacitate" things. That still persists, and some monsters compensate for this added compensation, but like low level 1st through 7th, this scales slowly for casters to regain that mastery.

---

---

Going to be posting progress thread--how [%] complete PCs, ditto Cohorts are--in the coming days.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:43, Thu 27 Apr 2023.

So HP has 1/2HD +1 as the minimum amount for every level above 1st. So, was just wondering if you would care if I just rolled 1/2 of the dice and added them to the set amount. Vythisk is for example 16d12 + 4d6 + 12 before any Con mods. So just roll 16d6 + 4d3 + 120. Does that make sense?

Absolutely to the point. This is perfectly acceptable! (Read on for terms and conditions)

If you want to do it that way. I want to clarify unambiguously two points. If you agree to them (need not post that you do, just roll as you asked permission to) then I will absolutely put my final stamp of approval with no question. It will be an option others can (but quite frankly probably won't!) use.

These are the only two points you need to be aware of. Don't HP if you're not implicitly agreeing.

1. This is for ease. It's tedious to have check every damn roll. It will sum it all, and take you literally 150 seconds, rather than perhaps over an hour. I personally have seen such shortcuts give the player, or user far more than the stats themselves would. If not for point two, this could be iffy. Point 2 makes it absolute.
   
2. You reframe, algebraic variables in a way that not equivalent. You are changing a minimum to maximum. You gain zero, zero, zero stat advantage, net or otherwise by doing this way. You do it to save you, the player the penny pinching effort. That's a hour you get back and can use. To be honest, HP matter at very high 30's and definitely in 50's, but let's (myself when I forget, and the other players) not forget that constitution and non-HD HP are really the workhorse then. We're also starting at 21st. There is statistical likelihood we'll never see soulfire undead, just because of epic D&D track record and my personal record. There is no exploiting this that comes anywhere near a net gain. The net gain is you roll once, and it sums it. You record the value and that's your current MAx HP. If you add the wrong number (by human error) from con or non HD sources, it can be retroactively modified. It's a one and done roll (until you level). Do not mistake however, you have an abysmal HP outcome. Personally, that's fine, if I  was a player, I'd not give a care. Death is reverisible "you die at 0 HP" has many exceptions. Cheat death, rolls to evade, magic items to auto heal, et cetera and et cetera of that that comes with low epic.

So yeah, do it! Just try to recall if we get 30th you wanted ease. If you brick your character, we can tackle then in that event.

Other players may reiterate how sub-optimal this is, but I explained the core components. If the game dies, you save yourself tedium. You can't put a price on that, that epic level antics can't break even or better.

I like this idea! Very generous and my kind of "tech play".

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 155):

Looking at the way he's got the roll written, I'm pretty sure that what he's suggesting is statistically better.

For example, a single d12 would normally roll 1 through 12; with the 1/2HD+1 minimum, that could result in a final roll of:

Roll: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
 HPs: 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 8 9 10 11 12

That's an average roll of 8.25. However, changing that 1d12 to 1d6+6 results in:

Roll: 1 2 3  4  5  6
 HPs: 7 8 9 10 11 12

which is an average roll of 9.5. If we can do this, I'd like to redo my HP roll this way as well....
This message was last edited by the player at 21:11, Fri 28 Apr 2023.

I am fine if we use the suggested method that we roll 1/2 our HD and add the remaining half into the roll. In my case, I have no Con at all but I work with using feats and desecrating altars to increase my undead HP. But then I am a lich so dying is not really the end for my char but rather inconvenience.

I already rolled for Ghanek and I'm satisfied with the results (and it only took me seven iterations. With Garth I just rolled twice.

You are completely right Maynitra. I just didn't break it down. You have in effect doubled your chances of getting a score higher then 8 - while also cutting your chances of getting a 7 in like nearly a 1/3.

I didn't misunderstand the mistake, I addressed it. The +120 isn't what I agreed to. the half dice is. I thought that was his con mod. So for that, that was me assuming. From my text,m however, I explained, and I thought it was clear, he was trading convenience for efficiency. +120 wasn't even what I was looking at. I should have, and if it was confusing, it's probably not because I was confused, but we not clear in explaining.

12d6 is fine instead of 12d12. 6d3 is fine instead of 6d6. But to be explicit, the adder, the fixed value won't change. The upside is ONLY that it sums it. Whomever does this can just see the value and write it down. It will take literally no more than 150 seconds (2.5 minutes) unless ISP is really slow. The downside is that what was minimum, because maximum. The safety net becomes a ceiling. If you want that safety net, you have to roll what's there. IF you want o save time, roll the 1d6 for each d12 and 1d3 for each d6. That's it though.

So I hope that is now clearer. taking what I said, you can see the MINIMUM, the safety net the fact that if you roll a 1, ona d12 you get effectively a 7. That's utterly flipped. Instead, you can roll a 1, and in fact have twice the chance you did, 1 in 6, in 1 in 3. There's no reroll. a 1 is a 1. The only, only, only reason to do this, the ONLY reason to do this...is to save RL time. That's it. HP matter, but I would hope everyone who doesn't realize this, now knows, most things that "kill" you, at this level effective do what HPs are at low level. Death Pact (Spell Compendium version, not the Complete Divine or whatever Bullshit version), True Resurrection, Fortunate Fate, Ring of Nine Lives, REvivify. It think that's all the apex solutions. I may have missed one. If you have 100 HP, or 500 HP, that's different. But 126 and 256. That's not a difference. For those that already know that, you know that, I hope by playing at epic. It's maybe, maybe two actions, the one who died, and one who restored; and that's it. For death Pact, yeah, you're KOed; but it's really fine to brush yourself off. HP matter, if you have 26 HP, you're not ready for Epic. If you have interatives of 150, that's going to be manageable. ~100 is not enough to secure a alive and dead, when HP are what's the method to kill you. It's just not. Most things (Traps and Monsters) also have ways to kill you up to a point I mentioned, that isn't lethal damage. They may very well incap you, and THEN do HP damage, but that's the idea that they want to incap everyone, or at least enough of you to get economy for attacking. Some have death, or imprison effects. At earliest, 27th level, if the group is really, really, really ballsey, or gutsy, you'll run into Soulfire creatures. I won't even let you access those monsters until then. They might as well be unreachable. One, because they have good chance to brick your investment. Two, because why they may be controlled, see point one if you can't, and if you control them you fuck with the dynamic of the actual PCs.

In summary, the +120 is the problem. That was my only error. Thank you for catching that. I assumed it was his Con. Of course he wasn't. Other than that though, I hope I'm crystal clear.

Also, I'm not upset. I'm irritated I overlooked the +120. I'm irritated I missed that. My ASD did not catch the 12 to 120 ratio. In fact, while it's moot, I still don't understand what those numbers are. I don't (think I) need to.

If there's a question, or you want the TL;DR version

1. If you want to save an hour of checking each HD roll, beyond first, roll a die with half the faces. Even though physical d5 (for d10) is cumbersome, it's trivial to do on RPoL.
   
   • I'll even let you reroll 1's. Just roll once, adding in your HP mods (same mod you would if you rolled the full HD. No compensation for die type reduction!) That number will give you your exact HP with current mods, which I know can change with temp HP, con mods, and other effects. Just write that number down. Should take around 2.5 minutes maximum.
   
   
2. You eschew what is a safety net, the minimum half+1, and only gain the RL time you would take (in my experience) rolling it methodically. That is the ONLY benefit. What was your minimum, is now your maximum. A hour can get a phone call to customer service, wash dioshes, spend time with kids, take bath or nap. If you want theat RL time, do it. If not, do it as the HD dictates and just check each roll for rerolls.

I apologize for causing you extra anxiety. It wasn't my intent.

A question for V, but also for the rest of you.

We had previously discussed item familiars, and basically had nixed the idea of the "bonus XP" pool being used for leveling. Maynitra has one -- it's part of her background -- are folks ok with her still having that bonus XP (23,200) to use for spells/items/etc?

I'm asking specifically because I would like to use it to provide xp for casting the Genesis spell -- that is, a spell that creates a demiplane. If she can use the xp in the ring she can cast the spell 4 more times than she'd otherwise be able to... with additional castings possible as she levels up.

As far as the demiplanes themselves, she'll have one of her own no matter what. With the ring, however, she could enlarge hers (up to 720ft radius, or about 1/4 of a mile across) or she could create several (say, 4 of them at 180' radius or 2 at 360' radius each, etc). Although she can't create life within it, she can control the placement of things like the ground and water and such -- which means we could have a body of water within, or caves, or whatever. We can definitely decide what the interior is like... so long as there's space for Maynitra's Refuge.

If we go this route, you should either make sure you set aside 150k for the portal to access it. (Maynitra's cohort has the feats and Maynitra has the spells to actually craft it, so long as you're willing to pay the gold and/or xp.) Or, if we want to create a shared portal, we can split the costs. (Maynitra's already spent the funds for her personal entrance.) Either way, I just wanted to toss this out there, as I thought it might be a good way to have a relatively protected place for meetings/rest/etc.

I am redirecting this question to a formerly closed thread (which I'll open after this post is made). I'll be proxy posting for Maynitra, but the post will remaina facsimile of that above. Please direct discussion of that to the newly opened thread, where discussion points will be cited by a post by me for consideration. You may also want to reread the thread (I didn't yet) as it may have more posts regarding the item Familiar. I simply Ctrl+F to quickly search.

Eek the change of the game name confused me for a moment.

Now two of your games are next to each other. Which yeah kinda of confused me for a minute.

also Vyth is almost done. I just need to type him up and spend his money.

Maynitra what program did you use for your building maps?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 165):

Dungeon Scrawl is a browser app; I found it quite easy to use for the most part. A few of the sprites I used I had to find elsewhere and import, but you can save your progress locally.

Oh, nice. Thank you.

Quick question - there is a feat - Ignore Spell Components - that require you to be able to cast 9th level arcane or divine spells. I was just wondering if 9th level infusions would fulfill that requirement?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 167):

I realize that this does not answer your question, but I would point out that Ignore Material Components also requires 25 ranks of Spellcraft, which we can't get quite yet. (At 21st level we max out at 24 ranks in a skill.)

Asking for a hopeful future level. I mean even if infusions count they only go up to 6th so would need three more feats to reach that level. Which would be at best 26th level if I took the first feat as my Epic one.

An Infusion is for Artificer? IIRC. In that case, that will never be possible with the errata from immortals handbook. HOWEVER, I really don't see a problem removing the 9th level casting ability. I see no "gain" that lower level spell cap would grant that creates a net gain. If someone can paint me a picture of how, at epic level, a spellcaster (of one that uses their replacement of spells) of less than 9th level spells would eclipse full casters, I'll hear it. Otherwise, it seems like it isn't necessary to limit. The Spellcraft 25 ranks and Eschew materials seem plenty a prerequisite.

I have a question.  A Wavekeeper is usually a druid but he can be a Ranger.  Now a ranger's caster level from level 4 on is half his ranger level (ie 2 at 5, 3 at 6 and so on).  So a 6th level ranger's caster level is 3.  But except for the first level, the Wavekeeper gets an increased caster level for every level of Wavekeeper.

So a Ranger /Wavekeeper 4 has a caster level of 3+3 = 6 equivalent to a 12th level ranger.

My question is this.  When looking at the Ranger table to see how many spells he has, should I be looking at a 9th level ranger or a 12th level ranger?

A Ranger 6 / Wavekeeper 4 would cast as a 9th level ranger and have the same CL as a 9th level Ranger.

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 171):

Vythisk is correct.

Though I went back to look at the class just in case something was odd about it - and the text for caster level increase is not there. It is a weird thing to leave that off. I mean just about every class that increases caster levels has it, but not Wavekeeper.

Yeah, I notice it also gives access to domain spells and the domain granted power but not an extra domain spell.  So it goes.

It adds them to your regular spell list which is better in most ways. Blackwater and Storm are pretty nice for a Ranger - Ocean less so, but still pick up a couple of nice spells from that one.

So, serious question - as I finish Vyth I am torn out how high I want his various Craft skills to be. What do you all think is a good number of skill points to put into Craft? I am thinking at least 5 for those he uses, and maybe up to 10 for ones he is very, very good at. Worth it to go higher do you think? The highest base Craft DC I have found is something like 41, so not sure if he would need even the mid teens let alone 20s.

Yes, I'm thinking of changing Ocean to Blackwater for Garth, Ghanek already has Storm.

So am going to buy a Homunculus - and advanced Dedicated Wiight, and something like 4 Tin Golems. Vyth's personal workforce. Am trying to combine some of the more common magic items into single slots using the MIC.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:30, Fri 12 May 2023.

Life is settling down a bit so I am going to try to get on with sorting my character out now.

Maynitra - I was going to give Vythisk a demiplane that was supposed to be the summit of a low mountain with the only thing - the oak tree form a feather token, and grass just starting to grow. With him just starting to build a base/hoard area. So, was thinking of having a gardener to start making sure it was a balanced ecosystem.

Brookdale! Great to have you back! You still keeping it oozy?

Also, actual rules question. Thinking of getting a gemstone of fortification. It is stated that dragons wedge this into their scales, would that work if he had it embedded in his scales and then was using alternate form?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 180):

Go for it! It's looking like the demiplane I'm creating will be forested with oak trees, and I just finished up the very person to take care of the place!

That is what drew my attention - I might make a dragonwrought kobold as his demiplane designer.

I keep looking for a variant of the genesis spell that makes a plane that keeps growing very very slowly, I think it might be 3.0, but can't find it.

Also nearly done with Vyth. Have to type his sheet up and spend liek 70K for magic items, and his 25K normal stuff.

Then can start finishing up his cohort and stronghold. I am wondering if the portal that leads to a demiplane is movable - becasue was thinking of having a partially movable stronghold that also had hte portal to the demiplane within the movable part.

Even if I don't have that am going to spend the money to turn a portable hole into a workshop and put his dedicated wight into it.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 182):

Are you going to name your wight Wong?


I'll see myself out.

*snort* Your humor is so timely, J. I've had a HELL, of a day. Caps very fitting is this case. That took so some to process, but made my laugh out loud when I fully unpacked it. I read back to front. So I thought maybe you were making reference to Dr. Strange's cohort. Which, y'know, could have made sense. Portable hole, demi-plane all that. So it really just made me bust out when the obvious joke was overlooked, I went full circle and saw "Rright" xD *snicker* Whether it was a bad joke or not, it really improved my stress today. So thank you. You are in good company, with me at least, for that kind of humor.



To be clear, Vythisk, this is the homunculous that's going in the portable hole?

I might make a team of them and name them Who, What, I Don't Know, Why, Because, Tomorrow, Today, I don't give a darn.

That is an obscure reference though.


Yes. Dedicated Wight going into portable hole when traveling.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 185):

Oh man, you're going to have a whole baseball team in there!

Edit: Why yes, I am old!
This message was last edited by the player at 14:10, Thu 18 May 2023.

But are you THAT old?  Because when that sketch was new, my father was a child and the Japanese had barely even invaded Manchuria.

I am going to have some hirelings as well as followers.  Should I include those in my followers thread (not in detail, merely numbers)

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 187):

Well, I definitely didn't see it first hand or live -- I'm not that old....

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 188):

Yes

I finally had a chance to revisit my sheet, bursting that mental wall of spending so much time only to come up short.  It's probably still full of a handful of errors, but a number of fixes are now in evidence.  Thank you to prior proofreaders and hope all is going well for everyone.  (V, I know things could be going better for you, and I truly hope they do soon.)

Hey, Narya! Also updated my sheet - not done with it, but am getting closer to posting the final version of it.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 193):

Only thing left for me is waiting on the decision for the item familiar.

Oh. I just thought, do I need to name my Shadow (Kenaag if I do) and does it count as a familiar?

EDIT: See Status thread! I am freezing this, that is leaving it intact, but it does not count yet.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 194):

Item familiar will provide no XP.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:44, Tue 30 May 2023.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 196):

:thumbsup:

Take your time -  I mean if we have hung around this long, we aren't going to go anywhere if you take a week or ten days to make sure you are good.

So, as an aside - what do you think of an Adamantine Full Plate of Nimbleness +1 as his basic kit? Also do you think a Ring of Protection can have armor qualities?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 198):

IIRC, the Magic Item Compendium only allows for items that give an armor bonus to have armor properties. Ring of Protection gives a deflection bonus, so that wouldn't count.

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Ah, well. I mean it would get a little crazy if you had armor, ring, amulet, all with AC plus a few +1/+2 armor enhancements for a very low cost.

Sorry for hiatus, got dragged into V Rising heavily past weeks.

Hey, quick question - are we still following UA 3d6, per the thread link to a message in this game ?  I've started weaving it in.

In reply to Narya (msg # 202):

Oooh, I missed this -- the rules are available at https://www.d20srd.org/srd/var...g/bellCurveRolls.htm if you don't have your copy of UA handy.

Forgot about that rule. Have to go over the ranks I have since 10-11 are far more likely to happen.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 194):

Also, I'm now basically done with everything, I think -- save writing out Maynitra's modified backstory, but I'll get to that later. I also need to get around to doing another map, but that's not for Maynitra's stuff...

Anyone have an idea of where - a Lesser Persistent Metamagic Wand might be located or the price for such an item at the least?

No such rod was ever printed.

Hi, V. Glad to see you back. How are you feeling now?

Yeah it is probably overpowered.

In reply to Eldryn Duskryn (msg # 208):

Steady but busy. I'm looking to round up CC here, and remove whomever needs to be. I told Maynitra, as I talk to her as a user, that July 4th was going to be the last day I expected to get in the way of things until Thanksgiving. Both are more American holidays. The former I know is, the latter is a matter of interpretation. Anyway, I've been doing work on the underside here, but I really would like people to consider their cohort, and if you don't have your main sheet done, I'm afraid I'll have to move on.

I'll put the relevant (above) in the proper thread, but suffice to say RL is looking up, but it's...seriously, it's like a metaphorical siege of epic proportion. The wolves are back at the door and I'm regaining ground. Soon the hounds will be out and hunting. That is to say, literally, I'm feeling more secure than I did before I was homeless.

I am also going to need to freeze this game when I clean house so that I can oversee everything. NPCs and PCs too.

I have epic procrastination, as I couldn't come up with a character concept for this level. I came up with one a couple of nights ago, and yesterday I put together the class build. Now I just have to fill the sheet. I will have that done in the next day or two. But there is no need to wait on me to finish if you want to get started.

Also, very glad that you are doing a bit better. Keep your chin up.

I will finish my sheet as well during the next weekend and cohort as well.

Well, have like 60K equipment, and 25K for the general equipment fund left to spend and Vyth is done.

Ran out a bit of time in finishing my cohort but everything else is complete. The cohort is nearly done (just need to run the math gear-wise). Some commanded undead creatures I may add also when I can as Hathra's main big power as minionmancer comes from his captured/commanded powerful undead.

Ok, completed everything now with the cohort. Followers I could tinker with more precision wise but leave it as it is as it needs approval by GM anyways (for list of commanded undead anyways).

You have more than 24 hours from now to post freely. In approximately 32 hours, I will be closing every thread I am reviewing, and then after that, or duirng, I will be making a new thread to discuss character creation topics. I will be making them all in view of all players, so that other players can help me meditate on all our behalf. Each character will have a thread, named for them, but any player can post there, as long as they remain focused on the eponymous thread.

I expect we'll be starting the game this month, at the latest end of July.
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:46, Thu 06 July 2023.

I just saw this last message, and I won't have time to complete my character before threads get locked. Sorry. I am afraid then that I will have to step out of the game, much as I would like to play in it. I haven't had much time because my mother in law is in hospital, and my partner and I have been spending all of our free time there with her. She will likely be in hospital for at least the next few days.

Sad see you fall off Eldryn, but good luck in IRL with the mother in law and things working out for the better.

Sorry to see you go, Eldryn

In reply to Eldryn Duskryn (msg # 217):

Very sorry to hear about your mother, but it makes perfect sense to spend your time with her. Good luck and take care!

By the way, I'm home now as well, so ready to go!

In reply to Eldryn Duskryn (msg # 217):

You're not removed from the game, nor am I going to punish you with benefits accrued in game, by the group, during your RL struggles. Just because I'm moving on doesn't mean you've missed the one and only chance to play. I am disappointed as this statistic, but most likely we will lose players by them not enjoying the game in progress. I hope to beat the odds. Everyone here has gotten waaaay past the immediate fix stage.

In any case,  I welcome you to check in and report when you have a better time IRL. I'm not locking the sheets permanently; just until I can review what's there and copy it.

So hold in there. Your RL struggles are more important than this game. You don't have to give up this game though. Just because you made the right choice, to focus on your family, doesn't mean this game isn't going to be a choice later.

Best wishes for you and your family.

Thanks, everyone. My mother in law was in hospital a couple of weeks ago, and they released her too early. She developed what turned out to be a bladder infection and started getting confused and slurring her words, so we took her back just two days later. Luckily we got to her before she became delirious, which from her late husband's experience would be the next step.

V, I just responded to your PM. To let everyone know, V has said I don't have to leave the game over this, so I will continue to build my character as and when I have time. Then once I am done, I will join in the game.

Glad to have you stay. :)

I'm going over everyone's sheets this week and next. July 4th, I overdid myself on sleep deprivation. I am suffering from a sleep deficit, and so need to sleep more, more often, until that's caught up. So I'm behind the curve I set.

I'll open character threads probably within four days.

So had an idea, but needed to clarify something. A portal to a demiplane is usually fixed, but if you set it up in your stronghold and the stronghold itself has movement abilities does the portal stay in the first place set up or does it go with the stronghold?

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 224):

It depends on how the portal is created, and what the stronghold does to be mobile. Cubic gates are mobile and random. I can't answer this without looking into the exact instance.

Some will move with the location, others are static, even if the location moves. A Gate Spell on a sailing ship will hover over the water where the ship vacated. A key to the planes, IIRC, can link two areas specifically. That portal, while mobile is a discrete location; a "doorway" is the same doorway even if not in the same city. While still others, like a portal to worlds, the "cursed" item, will orient to a new world based on where it is in the "home" world.

 I'll fill in maps where there are none, and we'll work to make sure what maps I pick capture locations the best they can. We sort of...need maps, to be battlemap versions. So if empty white space with lines for walls is what players of certain location prefer, that'll be what we use. I'd like to try to use imagery that while not 100% accurate are still battlemap friendly and have traits like stairs, and objects that can be interacted with. I can much easier add .pngs too. Stairs to connect maps. Candles, a brazier, grave stones. I don't want to start from scratch though. If I have to do that, I'll probably do it once or twice, and good or ill that'll be the canon. Most likely if I need to from scratch we'll have to use bland white maps, or texture patterns, and then just lines for walls.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 226):

I'm also happy to help with maps, when I have a chance. (They'll be similar to those I've put up for my locations, for good and/or ill.) Just PM me with an idea of what you'd like, and we can figure out the details (again, as I have time).

We can triage that as I sort through all sheets, and then extraneous sheets and then sites.

I wish someone had managed to make a stronghold builder tool of some sort. That book is really not well designed.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 229):

Yeah, it has lots of complex math involved.

And not well organized.

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 229):

I want to stress you don't need to use that book. It's an option for those that want it, but it's just one route. I agree it's very technical. Please feel free to use spells, like stone wall, permanency for things like wall of force (IIRC) and symbols of...(blank) for wards. You can then just assign grand houses, or a mansion or keep and we can use that as a model.

Not to burst the bubble of those that used the builder guild. I hope this is not a grievous revelation many would have wished to know day 1. I trust the maths, but I don't like reviewing it any more than I like reading the rules myself. There are optimal books and optimal spells, and there are a disparity in "balance" SBG is no different.

So feel free to broaden as I said in my first paragraph. Also, feel free to rely on Maynitra and I, her the precise, and me the overwhelming quick but dirty. I have tons of top down maps, if you can ignore incongruities I can find a type of map you can make special annotations to. I can plop a .png of a wooden (or stone, or map consistent) floor that might look patched, but "Whiteout" a feature not present. I can also ad a .png for areas. I'll post some maps I have for grabbing, or just to give you an idea of how I correct maps done by pros or devoted amateurs and what you can expect. I also post a specific custom made map that entails how I can customize a building in maptools. My maps are not passionate amateur, but I'm proud of them.

I'm glad, like Maynitra, to help your idea become a map. I won't, however, have the micro Maynitra will. I'll be more macro.

Anyway, I'll get back to this on hopefully Friday night. pings and pokes and reminders are welcome. Thanks for those that did, even if they weren't read. Local storms and home flooding pre-empted those last time. I hope, I HOPE that is gone for awhile.

I'd like to move forward with the game proper. Can I get a call of attendance. I'm aiming for the 10th. Just to be polite there will be a PM too. Just not quite yet.

We have Eldryn Duskryn getting ready to get back into the game design phase. While Maynitra is in assistance mode. So I'd like to have a dress rehearsal. Something to get our characters on page and in thread, run through some scenes.

I'll PM everyone on the 8th, and probably post something innocuous, but in character on the 10th.

I am still here and ready to proceed unless I need to fix things in my sheet or character.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:28, Mon 28 Aug 2023.

Yes to roll call and good with a low-stress start.

Present here and ecstatic with a stress-free start

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 233):

I'm definitely around -- distracted, but here.

I am here. I was just waiting on the answer to a question from V before I can build out my sheet. I might as well ask everyone here. Is everyone playing a monstrous character race? I ask because I have been part of gestalt games before where everyone except me played a monstrous race, and my character was totally overshadowed and made redundant. I have build ideas ready to go either way, but need to know what others are doing before I commit one to digital paper.

In reply to Eldryn Duskryn (msg # 238):

That makes a lot of sense to me. I would suggest that you consider your focus/area of expertise? That will also help to differentiate you and provide a niche to fill.

Maynitra is Drow -- so a monster race, but an LA+2 humanoid with no racial HD. Although she's a spellcaster, her focus is Abjuration, with a smattering of other abilities that are situationally useful. Her focus is on shutting down spellcasters and magic items.

In reply to Eldryn Duskryn (msg # 238):

;) You beat me to it. I'm glad! I will also add to Eldyrn's request for some dragon magazine material. I've of this approach. If anyone needs to react "If I would have known DrMag was available I would have taken...." Then I won't allow any except the very few I have pdfs of from when I was in DDI (4e). The ...of the Mage, and a caster class that allows some transmogrication are what I have access to.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 240):

I am okay with allowing dragon magazine stuff.

What comes to Hathra he is a full spellcaster on both sides of gestalt and through class feature, he has lich template without needing gold nor having LA from it. But otherwise no monstrous creature nor monster HD.

Ghanek is essentially an amphibious human. But has no monster levels.

Thanks, everyone. So it looks like templates are being used or minor LA races, but not full monster levels. I will be able to get to work on finishing out a sheet over the next few days now.

*COUGH* *COUGH* Full monster on one side. Also here.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:08, Tue 29 Aug 2023.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 240):

I'm also ok with that. There might have been one thing or two I would have used from it, but quite frankly it's usually too much effort to go chasing after it. Knowing that's an option now, however... I might go back and poke about a bit... :D

In reply to Vythisk (msg # 244):

LOL! Thank you! Brownie points for all, in Vythisk's contribution. I went by the portait for too long. Vythisk, however, is nowhere near threatening anyone from his monstrous side; Eldryn. If anything he is more legend than his monstrous stats would be alone. Vythisk also has some pretty kick ass crafting ability, which can (as levels are gained) will eventually drip over to you too.

I think the team mentality is also very present here.

I think the overall consensus and conclusion I've drawn, is that disruption to the game is most evident by nullifying player involvement, on the individual scales, especially when that's their domain.

Finally, everyone here knows that everyone else has staked into this game from the beginning. So if there's a dynamic that makes the game unfun, there are 2 dimensions of movement; only one is to match power level; the other is to contrast by domain and sphere of influence.

That said, the best way I can deal with problems; is to deal with them as they occur. I have OCD, and I know I've spent countless days, not just hours, worrying about being in front of problems.

I'm eager to put my time to GMing the "story" the game proper, and I want to give some escapism to those that need that.

I still think we run the risk of drop out. It pains me, but plans don't survive execution at 100% efficiency. I'd hope I can mitigate that to problem solving, but...history paints another picture.

If we do lose players, in that unfortunate event, I do have a team of three eagerly ready and able to join.

I'll leave it there. I may need to PM someone,l but I think all are accounted for.

I have to prep for my case manager tomorrow, but I said 8th to 10th, so I'm on schedule right now.

I'll review if anyone needs to be PMed, if not, we'll get ready to start the easy ongoing introduction, and correct errors as we start to lift off. :)

I have to build my sheet on another site and will transfer it over to this one when you reopen the sheets tab.

PMing a single player, and then opening the game thread on the 10th. We'll take it easy. Looking forward to this! Please remember I haven't memorized even 10% of the data that you all have given me. So feel free to snag PL (Private Lines) to remind me overlooked content, or facts contradictory to my posts. I'll learn in progress. :)

If you all could be so kind as to let me know when you want/need my intervention. I'm going to be reading the thread, but haven't had the time last weekend.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 250):

I don't want the game to go stale on its first presentation. So I will be reading the in game thread, and seeing if I can add some NPC content.

If you all could be so kind as to let me know when you want/need my intervention, that would help.

On the other hand, if you all want more time to just mull over your posts, or find time, I'm keen to let you all, or some of you perhaps slower, find that time.

No need to add NPC content, but there was a long break between my post and the last post, so maybe some minor side plot that investigates or prepares to investigate could be good to keep the activity going. As powerful as we are, any lesser threats we steamroll but steamrolling in itself is not bad to happen as a small filler before big serious threats/events.

Thank you so much for helping me accurately address my post then!

To everyone, thank you all present for being even more patient than patient. (I think Rob Zombie...) I went from financial strain, to social work strain, to doctor's appointment, and then health and lifestyle changes, and then career very late in life...many of which excuse me, as they are understandable, but none bring me any closer, quite thy opposite to passing this game's infancy.

So thank you for keeping the lights on. I think we either lost some, or some have just awaited a PM, if not, that's my misapprehension.

I write this here to praise everyone for keeping the heat on, to keeping this game from being stillborn. I am very taxed, and very guilty feeling for not doing what I would hope of a GM I played under. You all are doing the best you can. I will post when I can, and I know everyone knows I know. Still, I just want to check in, to make sure you know I'm alive, but also not losing interest. I AM overwhelmed, but I think that's the kind of big game I went out hunting, epic, city building, etc... That doesn't daunt me as much. it's just temporary RL that's lingering. I really do think my first "job" is not labor, but a task; and that's to thoroughly read the posts in game. I NEED (consider "need" emphasized in all manner of text that could be <>'s) to give feedback! I will...I'm not worried you won't trust me, I'm worried that I haven't and still can't today.

So I wanted to not just check pulse but also give vitals. ;) :| :/ :) :|   *sigh*

*beep*

(yes, the pulse is ongoing on this game if bit slow)

Don' worry.  It's ALIVE!

I'm still here!