In reply to Narya (msg # 5):

Indeed, also in thread where we discussed chargen we did discuss our shared history. Basically was the city was clouded in barrier/mystery, we entered, and faced an angry dracolich which nobody alone would be capable defeat, we teamed up and defeated the dracolich (for good? GM decides) and thus claimed the once glorious city which had turned into mysterious ruins over time.

Reasons for teamwork/working together can be past encounters but the key feature being that plainly rest of the world is freaking scared about us even individual level and leads lots of people to try to manipulate, avoid/exile/shun, or gaslight you default just because of sheer power 'levels' you possess.

So to avoid that or causing scenes, we decided to establish a city where we as individuals pursue our dreams without kings/queens or governments trying to interfere and stop us not because of who we are but rather what we are; in what being 'powerful adventurer who is atop that a gestalt'. Gestalt nature is something that folks IC are aware of and is a supremely rare trait (there are other gestalt and more powerful monsters but we are a publicly known group of gestalts together).

Yep, just waiting on final approval of chargen really. That and finalizing our shared history/roles in the city we were planning on ruling.

Making the first step, and posting my penultimate char gen rules. I haven't finalized it, but I will within the next 8 days.

Sorry to take up space here, but I thought it'd be best to keep all discussion about this in one place. (Feel free to delete if you'd prefer the questions someplace else!)


So, we'd be able to choose one or both of these rolls, but we'd pay for them out of our point buy allocation at 2 points cheaper? So if I rolled 9, 14, and 17, I could choose to pay 11 points to take the rolled 17 instead of the normal cost of 13 points? And likewise, I could pay 4 points for the 14? Or, instead I could just leave one or both, and pay for my choice of other stats as I wish? I think I understand the idea, but I wanted to make sure.


Edit: One other question -- will the bonus from bloodline levels apply to both sides or just the side they're taken on? For Maynitra it would allow her to count as a level 6 for her animal companion (instead of level 3), and would allow her Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil powers to act with at 10 levels instead of 7.

I can't answer this question without you quoting the exact wording that the bloodline provides to level.

Basically, for any class ability that's based numerically on level, bloodline levels add to class level for calculating effect.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:34, Sat 18 Mar 2023.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 11):

Up to GM to decide, but I myself would lean towards it counts only on the side where you take bloodline levels.

I hate to be a bother, but I don't have the books until at least next month. What else does the bloodline do? You're also welcome to PM me the information. I'm inclined to say only one side though.

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 13):

Bloodlines are from Unearthed Arcana, 3.5 splat book. Close details on the link; https://www.d20srd.org/srd/var...races/bloodlines.htm

But short version; you pick a bloodline and you gain bonuses based on your overall char level. However, the amount of bonuses depends on the intensity/purity of the bloodline. This is measured in taking bloodline levels, which function bit the same as taking LA which happens during specific levels instead of immediately.

But unlike LA the bloodline levels, even if they do not provide anything themselves (no skills, HD, no BAB etc), the bloodline levels are considered 'levels' for gaining feats example and bloodline levels stack for caster level (not casting ability, so no spell slots or spells known but CL for calculating spell power). Also, it can stack other features like count towards cleric levels for some domain or class features (like domain which says 'xx functions cleric level number of rounds').

But bloodline levels can get interesting regarding multiple class stacking instances. For example, if you have wizard, sorcerer, and cleric levels and then get a bloodline level, the bloodline level is added to all those classes casting level. Also any save DC stuff which relates to having 1/2 in class levels, bloodline levels stack with that in every case you have.

With gestalt, it can get pretty whacky so thus why suggest it applies only one side of the gestalt tree (or if want bloodline benefits on both sides, then bloodline levels take a level on both sides in gestalt). But besides this function, you get benefits based on the intensity of the bloodline in levels 1-20 (major bloodline giving a benefit at every level).

Major bloodlines overall in the formula sense give +1 to three stats, 2-3 feats, and skill bonuses, and then some small resistances (usually DR 5/alignment at 20th level). Some include some thematic abilities like smite good for demon bloodline or bonus to AC (like natural armor +1).

If this is applicable to Maynitra, then I'll say one side only.

Now onto the Landlord feat. At 21st level, what exactly does that provide?

Landlord as a feat works like this;

At 9th level, it gives you resources only for building a stronghold which starts at 25,000gp. In moving to 10th level you gain 50,000gp which are counted as 'adding' to the original sum (meaning the net-gain is +25,000gp more than before).

Now in 20th level (which is the max) you have 800,000gp, which again is not money spend on gearing the char but only to build a stronghold.

However, besides direct funds, you get a special scaling system where if you invest your own money to the stronghold (separated from funds given by landlord feat), you get money doubled up (so if invest 800,000gp, you get 1,600,000gp for stronghold spending).

Now stronghold spending can include besides physical structures magical architecture, siege weapons in siege weapon placements build, any/all staff needed to run things and manage, food supplies or any materials needed to run operations (not regular business expenses to make a profit but materials needed keep business running the first place).

However, GM remains the ultimate authority on the validity of buildings and expenses uses as the 'money' given is resources and GM determines is it feasible. You may have 'money' to build an adamantine walls around the city, but materials must come from locally in some manner (or be transported), and thus be discussed with GM what is possible and what is not.

In regards to multiple characters having the same feat, the granted allowance (funds to build) are combined and fairly if everyone gets a feat as a freebie they spend only mostly their own stuff unless they partner up with someone. But even if four parties want to invest money to support someone's project, the investment that each contribute is doubled only once per donor (not quadrupled). Details in the below link;

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/fea...ord--1731/index.html

In reply to Narrator V (msg # 15):
That makes sense.


In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 16):
I did not see us having that feat (or Leadership) toward building personal power and/or strongholds exactly, but toward explaining the investments we've made in establishing organizations and headquarters within the city. So, for example, Maynitra's funds wouldn't be invested in a typical stronghold; instead, she'd focus on establishing and maintaining stuff like a judiciary (judges, advocates, clerks, scribes, library books, etc, as well as a building), a city watch (guards, barracks, holding cells, etc), and perhaps a library or school. She might have a home/house, but it would be pretty modest, or built into one of these other buildings. Not sure if that thinking makes sense, but that's what I had had in mind -- mostly because it makes sense that those things would exist.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 17):

You can invest the stronghold of all those listed things. Judges need courtrooms, city watch needs barracks and armories, roads need bricks to repair them after centuries or more desolation, prisons need cells and guard stations. Homes need windows and doors beside walls.

You can spend stronghold money to repair the city and furnish it basically and design part of it yourself. It can cover the salary of the judges, guards, and mages working for anyone in the city for city law and watch.

We likely have time skip after taking the city over so that time skip period can explain how we got city repaired or rebuild and how if any trade agreements was created. Unless GM rules we have the feat but need roleplay forming the connections and get access to the resources that the feat provides (basically start from day 0 after liberating the city or we start 1-2 years later).

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 18):

Yes, exactly. My reply was meant to expand upon yours rather than to signify disagreement.

Edit: I would also see the Leadership feat in the same light -- if the Landlord feat covered the salaries, Leadership provides the actual people.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:40, Sun 19 Mar 2023.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 19):

True leadership can cover people who are loyal to you. Who could work without a salary (if provide otherwise for their needs) that would be quite unfair if both salary hired people and followers who you do not pay at all. Leadership followers mostly would be just loyal folks who are an unlikely to rebel or betray you.

In reply to Hathra Bonecrown (msg # 20):

That's true; I guess I'd see Maynitra's followers as being loyal (via Leadership) to her and her cause (justice in the city), while also gaining salaries (via Landlord) to provide for their survival (and thus reinforcing their loyalty). The "extra" folks who are covered by Landlord but not Leadership (ie, the "salary only" folks) would likely be easier to bribe or otherwise corrupt against her, as they'd be motivated more by the money than by any sense of belonging/loyalty to the cause.

Other styles/frameworks of Leadership could/would look different; I imagine that undead followers wouldn't necessarily need payment, for example.

In reply to Maynitra (msg # 21):

Indeed, I lean towards undead leadership instead just leadership for Hathra. But he will have some living followers as well but most are sentient undead. Some may include undead which have feeding needs (like vampires) so he tries arrange blood donations for them by citizens (giving them gold/payment for a donation of life essence or form unique currency which undead in city use for trading).

With an effective Leadership score of 33, my crew are only a fraction of my followers. I wonder what I'll do with the rest?  I also suspect that some of my specialists will be there for the money rather than from loyalty.

Be a commmodore and make your Cohort a sub captain and the rest members of your fleet, dockmaster, etc.

Anyways, important for character creation question - Vythisk (going to have to change that name) is a crafter and so would we have been around each other long enough for him to have crafted people's gear? Would that be allowed as a discount or not?

I rolled these but I'm not 100% sure what to do with them.  What are they for?
13:47, Today: Ghanek Brightwave rolled 18 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only with rolls of 6,6,6.  Character Generation Attribute rolls 3.

13:47, Today: Ghanek Brightwave rolled 17 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only with rolls of 5,3,6.  Character Generation Attribute rolls 2.

13:46, Today: Ghanek Brightwave rolled 14 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only with rolls of 4,4,1.  Character Generation Attribute rolls 1.

I rolled mine as well;

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 15 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 14 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 17 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

I guess it relates to stat points but unsure what is meant 'freebies' and such. Or what ceiling is meant to be as the overall explanation given as confusing? Anyways my chosen scores are 17 and 15.

Well yes, 17 and 18 for me I guess, but I'm actually quite happy with the point buy 40 build I already did

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 27):

If you used point buy to purchase an 18 or 17, you can swap that particular attribute out for the one that you rolled, and it will cost 2 fewer points than the purchased attribute. (In other words, you get a 2 point discount for having rolled that stat.) You don't have to use them, of course, but the option is there.

(This is assuming that I've understood V's option correctly.)

In reply to Ghanek Brightwave (msg # 27):

Or wait...*theory emerges* maybe GM meant that we roll these three stats, pick the best of 2, and those two stats cannot be altered besides -2 to score in each (refunded the lost scores in point buy the difference). For example, lowering from 15 to 13 would mean I get +3 point buy scores added to 40 point buy.

The point being the remaining 4 stats we alter with point buy (as with 40 point buy can get 16 to all four with exactly 40pts) and we can decide to keep or lower the two other scores to either means to gain more point buy to modify rest ability scores (example turn one 16 to 17 get 3pts freed), or just keep them if we desire to keep the score.

The above occurs before applying any race, template, or bloodline bonuses.

Or Maynitra's theory is also possibly valid as well, that you get a discount to upgrade the score higher or get more points nerfing it down.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:04, Tue 21 Mar 2023.

The rolls determine a single instance of a discounted score.

Examples are nice, now that they're rolled.


16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 15 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 14 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.

16:00, Today: Hathra Bonecrown rolled 17 using 3d6+6, dropping the lowest dice only.  Attribute Roll.


So you have a few choices, Hathra.

First you can choose to use the highest scores. That's 15 and 17.

If you wanted the scores:
17 Intelligence (11 pts)
15 Charisma (6 pts)

That would leave you with 23 more points.

However, the disadvantage is that maybe you wanted an 18 Wisdom. With this schematic (above) you'd only have 7 pts between the remaining three two scores. So maybe you'd rather have the 14 and 15. You would have the 18 Wisdom (for 16 pts) but could get, say, a 15 strength (for 6 pts) and a 14 dexterity (for 4 pts). That leaves 14 pts for Intelligence and Charisma. So lets say you get 16 Intelligence (10 pts) and 12 Charisma (4 pts). It would look like this:

Str 15 (6 pts [-2 discount from 8 normally])
Dex 14 (4 pts [-2 discount from 6 normally])
Con --
Int 16 (10 pts [no discount])
Wis 18 (16 pts [no discount])
Cha 12 (4 pts [no discount])

The above are just arbitrarily assigned scores (except Con, since you're a lich). You could have the remaining five scores in the above scheme, and your could rearrange that, or choose a slightly different scheme.

The ceiling is that no matter how you roll, you will have at most a 44 point buy with some restrictions. It provides a small variation, but not one that can be hugely favorable. You will have at least a 40 pt buy, no matter what. You may just get a better rate, and have 4 extra pts, or maybe only 2 extra pts, or maybe you are attached to the scores and would rather skip the discount, as a 17 is far less valuable than a 16 and 18 in separate scores.