It does make those with "Magical Spells" seem to become uber-ubermenschen as they progress in levels, but that's no different than the issue with the guy who start with six powers and no weaknesses, then rolls Animal/Plant Powers for two of the six, and has to be in the same group as the poor sot with the natural weaponry skill, a special weapon, and a physical handicap.
Rather than try to balance things by re-writing Animal/Plant powers into a new, improved balance by dilution, version,  use the open-ended aspects of natural weaponry and special weapon to make the disadvantaged individual into something as formidable.
In other words, if magical spells made through the inventing process are giving Doctor Weird the Phoenix Effect, then let Emerald Bolt use the inventing process to re-configure his crossbow into more formidable weapons and thereby keep the balance. As long as the villains get the same bonuses through invention, everything should come out in the wash. Besides, it's supposed to be fun. What could be more enjoyable than having the heroes survive the uber-villain dropping a mountain on them.

I think there will always be characters that are more powerful than others in VnV. Having lots of powers that are 2/3 as effective as a power is great but at a certain point it matters less and less.

I think it is important that the character who has an power via magic spells is some how nerfed versus the character that rolls it.

I think in general an invention point should be worth one quarted to one third a power, the advanatge of magic spells is it gives you 2/3 and a method to gain abilities. Other improvement should also require knowledge and equipment to be developed. Power stunts fall in this same area.

I use "power stunts" as a way to let non-magic characters expand the range of their powers.

In the end, though, magic spells will become more impressive at higher levels. This is part of the game, as is having characters who are more powerful than others.

In reference to Silver Dragon's point about power gaming, there is certainly room for abuse in V&V. I've had to learn to take a conservative early with things like Mutant Power and then give characters room to grow, as I've found characters often push whatever boundary I set up. (I also give myself the option to go back and reboot if a previous decision turns out to have been a big mistake.)

As someone who has run V&V, Champions, and MnM on RPOL, though, I have to say I get far fewer headaches in V&V with players trying to squeeze every last drop of power out of the character creation process.

It is still there, but not nearly so intense.

Oh CHAMPIONS is the worst.  "Rules Rapeage" is more like it.  I've seen it both ways.  I've seen the math-majors crunch the numbers so their characters are unbeatable demigods... and I've seen the overreactive GMs lay down so many restrictions that the PCs all end up looking the same.  Martial Artist?  Throws 12 dice with a 10 OCV.  Brick?  Throws 12 dice with a 10 OCV.  Blaster?  Throws 12 dice with a 10 OCV... etc., etc...

The "balance point" is inbetween but it's always a struggle.

V&V doesn't usually pretend so hard to be balanced.  :)

In reply to Shimakaze (msg #58):

That has always been an issue I have had with "point buy" systems, especially in regards to supers. Makes it far too easy to put together an uber-hero that can break the system. It also makes it too easy to put together power combinations that really make no sense together as they were only chosen to create the most powerful hero the person could cobble together using the rules.

Right, and any "sweeping" rules the GMs put in place to curb it can end up forcing characters into "cookiee cutter" molds.

Not a fun choice.  CHAMPIONS works best with a certain mindset... "Yes, I know we can all abuse the rules, but let's just not."

Not to say CHAMPS can't be a ton of fun with the right group.  But seems cumbersome for online play.

I have played Champions with both mindsets. Both can be fun, but within limits.

A GM can always balance a game in play. If you read comics it happens all the time. Characters tend to fight what they can deal with, but the GM can also alter the opposition a bit if you need to balance it.

Some characters have powerful out of combat or pre or post combat abilities.

But the characters themselves can also balance it. If I am the toughest super I will dive right in and go after the toughest go on the other side.

I am also a proponent of post character rolling fixing. If a character only gets a couple of powers let them pick what powers they receive. There might be times to say no, if the combination is too unbalancing. But play around with the character and let them super size a power to make them more effective.

I would probably not let them be as tough as the character that got lucky but i would close the gap a bit so the character would be fun.

Well, in V&V there's already a mechanic to help out the player who rolls only a few powers.  Pg. 4, last paragraph: "A character with few powers tends to be less powerful than a character with many.  This being the case, the GM is encouraged to upgrade the usefulness of the powers received by a character with few powers, in order to make him capable of contending with more powerful characters."

So if Joe only gets 3 powers, and has to drop one to take a weakness and a second to ditch a debilitating weakness... if he rolls up Power Blast, it ought to do more damage than Mike's character with 7 powers (including Power Blast, Flight and Invulnerability).

Not all GMs do this, but those that do, really have a better shot at at least a sort of balanced game. :)

That is pretty much what I did in my game, tweaked the powers so they were more useful: cheaper cost, longer range, some added ability, etc...

In reply to Bonespike (msg #63):

I think your take on it was perfect Bonespike.

Agreed!

I always do this.  I think if you have only 1 power, it's re-roll time.  But if you have 2 powers, then I (if I'm GM'ing) will treat that character as if they have both powers at 2x, or one power at 3x, more or less.

You can make some awesome characters like this.  But, some really weak powers can't really be enhanced too well, so I work with characters.

You can also get some sweet heroes with just 1 or 2 powers, like a 'power copy' absorb power (had that in MoSqUiTo -- but he also had Super Speed -- super combo!), or enhancing the 'transformation' power to copy the thing *perfectly* in all aspects, including memories (Rogue?).

Last point -- when I roll a weak sauce character, it's a bummer.  I admit it.  Every hero needs some flair!!!

As a player, my all-time favorite character rolled a two for powers. By the time it was done I had Ht Speed and Ht Ag.
The character was a blast because I could focus on story and let combat sort itself out. I've had other characters with awesome powers (including one with powered armor, wings, sonics, and the intelligence to make them better), but they weren't as much fun as the simple fast guy.

Just happens that Height Sped + Height Agi is one of those 'killer combos' where you generally get *quite a lot of moves per turn*, right?

As a GM, I'd counter that character with a Gravity Control NPC, I suppose.  Everyone gets 3x their weight (or more)?

Rolled both but only got a +10 to agility. But did roll high on the heightend Speed. First time I have ever gotten both on a VnV character.

In the same game the brick also got heightend Speed, though he rolled lower.

Even so it should be a brutal combo.

A good GM makes all the difference in gaming, really.  Not that it's all on the GM - players and player chemistry are very important.  But the right GM can make a game a real gem.

I just got to play out the coolest heroic sacrificial death scene, with the flexibility of our awesome GM over in V&V New Dawn.  Awesome stuff!  :)

Anyone had to make 'detection' distance rules?

I have a character in a game (should bring him over here)
who has x3 Det Hidden & Danger rolls based on Det Vibration power in his Spec Weapon.

On our first run, the GM asked how far our Detects worked,
then made a ruling that it was a function of INT stat,
and then said that my hero wouldn't have detect dangered a sniper shooting at him
NOR the location of the sniper.

I objected vigorously, but I also think it's important to use common sense for Detects rather than try to figure out a distance formula.

Anyone else have opinions?  Does anyone else make distance rules for Detects?
I only GM'd V&V briefly, but I def didn't have a need to do this.

In my V&V game, however, we did have a lot of negotiation between me (GM) & a few players about what was allowable in a character.  I tried to catch any overblown combos at that point, rather than limit things during the game.

Personally, I tend to play fast and loose with any numbers not already delineated in the rules. If I were the GM, and one of the characters had Cosmic Awareness crossed with Psionics that allowed them to automatically succeed on detection rolls, the snipers I wanted to surprise them with would still be a surprise.
Sometimes, the numbers have to take a back seat to the story.

I think the definition of the power matters here.

Your friendly neighborhood Spider Man should be able to roll against a sniper, but only once the sniper draws a bead on him.

I'm not sure what "detect vibration" means, but it sounds like it would not help against a sniper until the trigger was pulled. Depending on the other powers, I might give him a chance.

The V&V rules are completely imbalanced, as we all know.

I've played in a few rpol games now where players had "the killer combos" that I know of, namely:

Height Speed + Height Agi + Invuln
Armor + Height Str
Size Change + Height Agi
2x Magic Spells
Invis / Non Corporeal / Fly
Absorb (Powers) + Height Speed + Height Agi (actually, MoSqUiTo (= me) had those!!!)

(And also in a F2F Champions game, one friend always made amazingly over-powered heroes with very few points spent.  It was impressive!)

Question is this:
When you build your character(s), do you aim for 'balance', or do you aim for 'overpower' / imbalanced?
Or as GM's, do you build your villains to match/balance heroes, or do you roll them randomly, or ...?

What I seem to do is (luckily) roll up someone who is pretty super-powered, then the GM & I 'tone them down', and then I weedle in little bonuses with inventions & whatnot.

But is this REALLY how to run Superhero RPG's?  Are we supposed to have 'game balance', or should we just let them run wild & let the gameplay balance it all out?

Interested to hear people's takes on things...?

I think "balance" is a relative thing.

When I run or play a game, what I want is for every character to have some time to shine and for every player to get to do some of the things that they like. Some people like to be the biggest, meanest, toughest mo-fo on the block. They should get a chance to do that every now in them. Some like to be clever. Some like to sulk and mutter about dark tidings.

That said, I don't want a game with Dr. Manhattan in it where the rest of the heroes are just window dressing while he does all the really important stuff.

So far on RPOL, I've not run into overly wicked players or NPCs. Of course, in the game I'm playing now, my character has Emotion Control and Shape-Shifting as his two primary powers and I like him a lot. I may not be the best person to comment on balanced games.

<-----Height Speed + Height Agi + Invuln

I like my character to feel like a comic book hero. The Patriot also had Disintergration Ray, a great power that deals lots of damage with high to hit numbers, but I dropped it because it did not fit what was otherwise a very tight concept.

What I find off putting is when a character just doesn't gel because the desire to have a bunch of powers that only make you tougher but not cooler.

It's definitely a fine balance.

My char has a few abilities, incl 'mutant power' & spells.  He could've been *much* stronger, but I opted to go for the 'super martial artist' (like Iron Fist, even tho in most comics he's the weakest hero).

I also toned his Mutant Power down signifcantly bc original GM felt that he was overpowered compared to the rest of the group.  Now that he's in a new game group, I think he's right in the middle of power levels - def not the weakest, def not strongest.

Yeah, that original GM has a stick up his butt. :)

Silver Dragon: Feel free to post both versions of the mutant power so we can see the options.