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VnV Rules Discussion.

Posted by The GuardianFor group 0
Star Master
player, 33 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 03:45
  • msg #80

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

I must say that the most fun I've had on RPOL is playing 'The Bowler'.
His powers don't matter, he's a typical backwoods farm boy turned professional bowler superhero. It makes me smile just to think about it.
Silver Dragon
player, 35 posts
HP 13/13 - PR 62/61
Breathe. Focus. Strike!
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 04:32
  • msg #81

Re: VnV Rules Discussion


quote:
Psionic Power - 'Chi Mastery' - Willpower Defense always on,
'Inner Air Technique' - instant PR recharge, can do 1x per hour.

 

This message was last edited by the GM at 06:48, Wed 20 Mar 2013.
Incipient
Player, 5 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 06:31
  • msg #82

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Incipient was the best character I've ever rolled naturally, or played.

Awesome.

Basically:  Great stats- everything was high, high hit points, ARMOR, AND HP REGENERATION, a psionic ranged attack that could only be defended against with mental abilities/willpower, the ability to force re-rolls (This power also EVOLVED into other permutations per level, albeit at a high PR cost, BUT...), a Power Absorption power that REGENERATED THE HIGH PR COSTS OF HIS POWERS.  He was basically, like, a non heavy damage wielding tank.  I ran him through some 1 on 1 fights and he easily outlasted Behemoth, among other big baddies.  He also had a katana and was able to do fair HTH damage. He could only do about 6-20 points of damage- never a lot, but never a little- a tight range.

He could just outlast anybody, and could just patiently chip away at them until they went down.

I also liked how well his powers worked together in his character, and how complete he felt.  Kind of a perfect defensive character.  Also: despite his having a ton of powers...he was essentially just a guy in a white suit.  He didn't look too weird.  He was a smart guy, a little emotionless, but fun to play.  Potentially "leader of the team" material.  Man, I really wanted to run with him in a long term game. *sigh*

Maybe someday.  :)

Here's his power set:

Powers:

1.  Mutant Power: Reality Distortion- Incipient can play with and alter the laws of reality.
     There are a myriad of applications for this ability that Incipient has yet to explore.
     At the moment, however, he only knows one application.

Limitations to "Reality Distortions":
     While, it can be applied in non-combat situations easily enough,
     the "Reality Distortion" Mutant Ability requires time to "see" the patterns of what is happening in a battle in order to be effective.
     As a result, Incipient cannot use the ability during the first round of battle.
     If surprised, Incipient can not use the ability until the third round.
     If surprised mid fight, Adam must wait a full round to use the ability again (and "see the patterns" once more).

  -Ability A: Probability Distortion:  Force ANY roll to be re-rolled, any time. PR=3 per re-roll forced.
     This does not cost an action to invoke.  Only the PR cost.  Re-rolls can only be forced once per action.

2.  Animal/Plant Power: One Celled Organism (3 powers, -4 STR, +2 END, +2 AGL)-
 A. Armor: (ADR=83, x 2.49 body weight, Regrowth rate: 44 pts. per night).
     Thick, rubbery, tough, smooth cocoa skin covers Adam Clay's body.
     As it takes damage it looses it's density, but does not crack or split.
     It does not seem strange to the naked eye and a casual glance, but a close look shows an impossibly clear complexion...
 B. Regeneration: Regenerates per turn instead of per day.
     Can not regenerate Ice Damage as it slows the cell regeneration to a crawl.
 C. Lowered INT: -5

3.  Heightened Endurance B: +24

4.  Absorption:  Incipient can take in energy meant to harm him, and use it to bolster his own personal energy reserves.
     Basically, he absorbs incoming damage and converts it into stored Power.
     2 points of Power for every point of damage taken.

5.  Heightened Intelligence B: +16

6.  Psionics: "Primal Scream"- equivalent to a mental sonic blast.
     Attacks as Mind Control and Defends as Willpower. 1d12 Damage, R= 28" (Sx2xL in inches), PR=1 Per shot.
     Physical bulwarks (Armor, Invulnerability, etc.) do not protect against this attack.
     Opponents can, however, mentally "roll with the punch," as per the V&V rules.
     Area Scream: Effects all within 28" (Sx2),  PR=3 per Area attack.  Defense takes 1 action to set up, PR=1.

7.  Willpower (B):  +9 applied as desired to STR, AGL or END.

8.  Weakness: Vulnerability:  Fire.  It does double damage to HP.
     Incipient's natural temperature is a little bit higher than the average human being.
     When hit with flame attacks that actually harm his inner body cells, the heat burns faster through his body, causing greater damage.
The Guardian
GM, 81 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 06:46
  • msg #83

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

He was awesome. I offered to co run stand alone solos with you but never heard back.

link to another game

I was planning on running a pretty powerful character, Wraith II, I rolled up for the short lived magic game.
The Guardian
GM, 82 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 06:48
  • msg #84

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Silver Dragon:
quote:
Psionic Power - 'Chi Mastery' - Willpower Defense always on,
'Inner Air Technique' - instant PR recharge, can do 1x per hour.

Wow that is pretty awesome. basically doubles your PP every fight.



Sorry Silver Dragon, I acccidently edited your post.
Incipient
Player, 6 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 06:55
  • msg #85

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

In reply to The Guardian (msg # 83):

Weird!

I vaguely remember this. Must have been when I was completely swamped.

It wasn't on my sticky or anything.

I'll PM you in the game.  Maybe we can get something rolling...
The Guardian
GM, 83 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 06:58
  • msg #86

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

We are both set up as GMs.
Silver Dragon
player, 36 posts
HP 13/13 - PR 62/61
Breathe. Focus. Strike!
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 08:08
  • msg #87

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

The Guardian:
Sorry Silver Dragon, I acccidently edited your post.

No worries.  I don't think I actually typed "Wow that is pretty awesome. basically doubles your PP every fight.", but all good.

While this Psi Power could theoretically be good -- namely if Silver Dragon unleashed lots of dmg or had some ridiculous attacks that needed a lot of PP -- basically it's really good for THEME, ie he has a unique martial arts Chi (or soul) of a Dragon.  And then all his 'Magic Spells' are called "Chi Powers" instead.  (And he now will be EVADING a lot since he doesn't have much HP -- and got creamed last fight, even while invisible.)

Anyway...  Incipient was the char I thought of for Armor + other amazing stuff.  Yeah, he was quite a critter.  Actually I thought his biggest weakness was no movement power, and also no mental defense for a mind controller type.

Don't know if I saw Wraith II, but Wraith 1 seems pretty effective.

Guardian & Incipient -- wanna start a V&V game called "OVERPOWERED" where we all make Hulks can have them encounter with some contrived reason & then destroy everything?
:D

I was playing in a game (that died) where we played giant monsters battling.  Was fun.  (Not V&V tho.)
Incipient
Player, 7 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 08:14
  • msg #88

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

In reply to Silver Dragon (msg # 87):

Incipient's Psychic Scream defends as Willpower which defends somewhat against mind control/emotion control attacks.
The Guardian
GM, 84 posts
Wed 20 Mar 2013
at 08:16
  • msg #89

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Silver Dragon:
I was playing in a game (that died) where we played giant monsters battling.  Was fun.  (Not V&V tho.)


That was Wraith II, Wraith I was the tampa game that died. Wraith II rolled up as everything Wraith I was and more.

I was in the game with Incipient,as Wraith I, and knew how much he had wanted to play the character. Wraith II, like Incipient, is strong enough to play as a solo.

So a while back I offered him a chance to run solo games for each other. I want to give that idea a run. I think we could do that as one shots and have a lot of fun as well.But want to start with this one.
Bonespike
player, 43 posts
Wed 2 Apr 2014
at 13:32
  • msg #90

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

I figured I would bring this up here as not only am I a GM but am also in V&V games (well, one right now) on here...

I was looking at the chart for velocity damage and it really seems unbalanced compared to the brawling weapon damage by weight and HTH base damage by formula. For example you can get a 2d8 damage bonus to a thrown object as long as you can impart 121" of velocity to the object. Now, 121" is 27.5 mph which is not exactly a high velocity. An average person could, RAW, throw a baseball at that speed doing 1 damage (for the weight of the baseball) + 2d8 damage (for the 121"/27.5 mph velocity). The average damage on that is 10 which is easily enough to knock out an average person. I could see a 70 mph baseball being able to knockout your average person pretty easily but it is harder to imagine a 27.5 mph baseball doing that.

The rules leave out a number of the damage die steps that the brawling weight table and HTH formula both have. I could easily see houseruling it to make it a bit more balanced but that would penalize low level telekinetics and even weaker magnetic power users. Really strong characters of course would be significantly less impaired. What do people thing about how the velocity damage table progresses?
Star Master
player, 41 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 00:18
  • msg #91

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Actually, that's the reverse of what I've always felt about thrown brawling weapons. According to the throwing rules, the velocity damage is based on the distance traveled prior to impact. To get the full 2d8 you would have to hit the target at a range of 121" (at -2 to hit).
If you were to propel an object 121" within a single phase (about one second) it would be traveling at 412 mph, so 2d8 doesn't sound bad.
However, throwing a fastball at a target and getting a 70 mph damage bonus means the ball travels about 21". Therefore it would do 1 pip for weight and nothing for velocity. So if the Astounding Green Bulk gets hold of a grapefruit, run up to him. If you're within a football field or so, he can't really hurt you.
Bonespike
player, 44 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 02:07
  • msg #92

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Star Master:
Actually, that's the reverse of what I've always felt about thrown brawling weapons. According to the throwing rules, the velocity damage is based on the distance traveled prior to impact. To get the full 2d8 you would have to hit the target at a range of 121" (at -2 to hit).
If you were to propel an object 121" within a single phase (about one second) it would be traveling at 412 mph, so 2d8 doesn't sound bad.
However, throwing a fastball at a target and getting a 70 mph damage bonus means the ball travels about 21". Therefore it would do 1 pip for weight and nothing for velocity. So if the Astounding Green Bulk gets hold of a grapefruit, run up to him. If you're within a football field or so, he can't really hurt you.

I can see where you are coming from on this but I don't think it truly pans out that simple. From a rules perspective it is highly penalizing (and not very comic-like) to not allow acceleration damage to telekinetic, magnetic, and thrown attacks. Magneto could take ball bearings and make them as deadly as bullets in a fairly close range. And many telekinetics in the comics use light objects at high velocity to cause impressive damage. Going with the distance travelled thing you could posit that if you are right at the barrel of a gun the bullet would do no damage because it didn't travel much distance at all and that is definitely NOT the case.

That being said, if you can step in *close* enough (and this is important) to something being thrown so that the thrower does not reach full extension that could absolutely reduce the velocity and resultant damage. A thrower needs full extension, spin, or whatever to get that last snap that imparts the acceleration and velocity to the object thrown. I saw a sports science program where a woman threw a softball 65 feet at about 70 mph and she absolutely shattered the meter they were using. Professional fighters can strike with 1000 lbs. of force and there is no way their fist weighs that much. It is the acceleration and the snap along with the weight that imparts the damage. I would personally not try standing 10 feet away from someone who can throw a baseball 90 mph and count on not being hurt. That ball leaves the hand at essentially that speed, maybe catching a moment of acceleration upon leaving but after that it begins to decelerate slowly due to distance, gravity, and air resistance. The same goes for an arrow; standing right at the arrow when it is released may be much less damaging but 10 feet away and you are dead, it is going fast enough to kill you.

Going towards how you are thinking velocity works (and it does look like that in the rules but doesn't make sense) really nerfs any kinetic accelerator types, and they can start out hard enough taking a while to get to some decent damage as it is. Ultimately I feel that if you have enough room to get a fully extended throw, spin, launch, etc. that is the velocity for the turn and what gets hit takes damage based on that velocity. It realistically doesn't get there in one second just like realistically when a person has an action and moves 50" they are not in one place then 1 second later are 250 feet away. It actually makes sense to break the movement down into phase increments to show progression towards the destination. It isn't even that hard to do but is a bit busy (but the GM would do it and it doesn't slow down a PbP game); divide 15 seconds by the amount of phase increments according to initiative. The result is how long each phase increment is and movement is effectively divided among those phase increments so if you move on 20 for example, you start your movement then and in the intervening 15 phase increments you are moving towards your destination. I actually did something like that early in my game when Oscillator wanted to intercept the thrown grenade, fly it to the soldiers, drop it, then angle up to phase into the ceiling. Only teleporters get to instantly move in one phase increment from one location to the next, any other movement takes time. Just look at the jumping rules (as weird as they are); your jump takes place over a number of phases, why should other movement be any different? I think they abstract it to make it simpler perhaps but it logically would be the same.

In putting these thoughts down it actually brings up a problem I have with how falling damage works. As written it really does look like for the whole turn you are hovering in the air then between turns you fall the appropriate distance. For me it would make more sense to break down each turn's worth of falling into phase increments using what I mentioned above, so every phase increment the person would fall X distance based on the total acceleration. That would prevent weird shit like when Silver Dragon blew out the supports over Ba Kien but he was able to just step out of the way because as written it wouldn't fall until the turn was over.

I think my biggest problem with the velocity damage chart is it reads wrong; 1d4, 1d8, 2d8, 2d10, 3d10, etc. is a max damage progression after the initial 1d4 of 4, then 8, then 4, then 10 for every increment after that. It sits odd on my OCD tendencies. Changing the chart to read like this: 1d4, 1d8, 1d12, 2d8, 2d10, 3d10, etc. makes the damage progression after the initial 1d4 more logical; 4 to the 1d8, 4 to the 1d12, 4 to the 2d8, then increments of 10 after that.
Star Master
player, 42 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 02:24
  • msg #93

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Breaking down the velocity by phases does make more sense on falling objects, and the damage progression on the velocity chart does seem disjointed.
In play, I tend to use the maximum distance the object could be thrown as the velocity to figure the bonus damage. Unfortunately, this leads to multiple characters purchasing marbles and hoarding quarters. Anyone with a carrying capacity over 2500 pounds does more damage throwing a marble than they do shooting an energy rifle.
Bonespike
player, 45 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 02:37
  • msg #94

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

I totally understand that, I would just say that players should be reasonable rather than power-gaming. At least having the 1000" cap on velocity of thrown objects does help a lot, remembering that velocity equals remaining carrying capacity/10. Yes the person with the 2500+ lb carrying capacity can do a chunk of velocity damage throwing, but so can their opponents. I have always been about using the same tactics as players, it just makes sense. Of course the attack bonus of a light object is negligible and HTH to hit is abysmal so min-maxing like that can backfire too.
The Guardian
GM, 91 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 02:45
  • msg #95

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

why is there a cap?

If someone can throw something faster why should it be capped?

Like I said in the other thread there are plenty of other things you can correct. Second as far as balance HTH is already when of the worst attack types. Sounds like a problem that does not need to be fixed.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:48, Thu 03 Apr 2014.
Bonespike
player, 46 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 13:20
  • msg #96

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Like I said it is the increments that bother me the most, the strange damage progression. Throwing the 1d12 or 2d6 in the chart smooths out the progression and doesn't radically change the damage being done. I have already altered HTH from the base of 5 to a base of 6 and have toyed with the idea of moving the base up to 7.

As far as why there is a cap that would be a question for Jeff. I am guessing it is because of air resistance, gravity, and such.

Yes, other attacks are far more accurate but aside from spending every level adjustment on a +1 damage to those attacks (which HTH users can also do) the highest damage as written is 1d20 where HTH attacks can exceed 10d10.

It definitely makes sense to me to change how falling damage is done to prevent those Looney Toons moments, same thing goes with movement. It doesn't slow the game down as it is a PbP and just is logical. It still gives people the chance to intervene on a falling object (I don't think anyone has fallen yet in the game) and makes movement more normal and less of a teleport.

The whole doing more damage with a thrown quarter than a high-powered rifle does bring up some concerns. I have always wondered about increasing the damage firearms do since even though it is a small projectile it is travelling at very high velocity.
Bonespike
player, 47 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 16:50
  • msg #97

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

I just want to throw this in here as well, as a disclaimer I suppose...

As much as people may think I am looking for realism that really isn't it. I am looking for versimilitude, some consistency in things. If something doesn't make sense it grates at me.
The Guardian
GM, 92 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 20:37
  • msg #98

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

In reply to Bonespike (msg # 97):

Consistency on its own seems like an insufficient reason to change things to me. If you are going to change things to try and mirror "reality" I get it, otherwise seems unneeded.
Bonespike
player, 48 posts
Thu 3 Apr 2014
at 22:27
  • msg #99

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Well, putting the 1d12 or 2d6 into the velocity damage chart satisfies my sense of order and even a touch of "reality" (as much as there is in a supers game) as does changing how falling damage and movement works. That pagoda thing really brought it home for me, Silver Dragon did a cool thing and he was essentially penalized for it by the rules as-written. This is not Dale's fault, he made it clear he goes as much by-the-book as he can and he didn't write the falling damage rules. For me I just have difficulty with something like falling in a 15 second turn doing nothing during the turn then in the moment between turns all the falling happens, likewise movement being an all at once thing; here one phase, 50" away in the next. Moving 50" in 1 phase just because it seems that is what is intended by the rules just makes no sense; 250 feet of movement in 1 second is moving your whole body at 170 mph for that second.
MoSqUiTo
Player, 22 posts
ZzzzZzzz...ZzzT!
HP:40/40 PR:77/77
Sun 6 Apr 2014
at 23:12
  • msg #100

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Star Master:
In play, I tend to use the maximum distance the object could be thrown as the velocity to figure the bonus damage. Unfortunately, this leads to multiple characters purchasing marbles and hoarding quarters.

Any rule that encourages characters to hoard small objects should be encouraged.

This SO inspires me to let my guy die & make a new hero called "The Hoarder" who carries a bunch of regular items around & 'imbues' them with some kind of power ...

"QUARTER!!!!" Hoarder shouts, imbuing the quarter with 500mph velocity and a carrier shockwave.

(Maybe I'm excited for Game of Thrones new season & thinking of Hodur...?)
This message was last edited by the player at 23:12, Sun 06 Apr 2014.
Kid Kinetic
player, 51 posts
You may know me as
GM Bones
Mon 7 Apr 2014
at 03:00
  • msg #101

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

I had a character who basically threw baseballs at people.
MoSqUiTo
Player, 23 posts
ZzzzZzzz...ZzzT!
HP:40/40 PR:77/77
Mon 7 Apr 2014
at 03:12
  • msg #102

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Kid Kinetic:
I had a character who basically threw baseballs at people.

Guessing at character's name:
  1. Pitcher
  2. Fastball
  3. Knuckleball
  4. Big League
  5. Spitball
  6. Chucker
  7. Kid Balls

Did I nail it?
;D
Star Master
player, 43 posts
Mon 7 Apr 2014
at 04:54
  • msg #103

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

You could have named him Nolan.
The Guardian
GM, 93 posts
Mon 7 Apr 2014
at 05:45
  • msg #104

Re: VnV Rules Discussion

Hit by Pitch
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