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13:17, 7th November 2024 (GMT+0)

Special Guest Stars?

Posted by CaptainHellrazor
OBorg
member, 50 posts
Born under a bad sign,
in a crossfire hurricane
Sat 5 Oct 2024
at 10:27
  • msg #2

Special Guest Stars?

I love the idea of bringing back forgotten heroes for a last hurrah!, however...

As a GM, recycling your own NPCs between multiple games is fine (as long as the game lore can stretch to fit).
Or if a player drops from a game I have no problem with the GM running their characters as NPCs, or another player taking over that character.

But using a player generated character from another game entirely? Personally I'd want to get the OK from the original player first, or even better have the original player come back to run their old PC again.
CaptainHellrazor
member, 497 posts
Sat 5 Oct 2024
at 10:46
  • msg #3

Special Guest Stars?

I am not talking about characters from another game, just characters abandoned by players in this game.

As far as I am concerned I put in as much time into character generation as the players do, if they quit the game then they have zero rights to how that character is used from that point onwards.  It has no effect on the player once they leave, nor do ex-players (quitters!) have any right to impact the rest of the gaming group who are still in the game.  The game is owned by me, the characters belong to me as the game creator if the player chooses to leave.  In most cases those characters are forgotten or killed off, I choose to give them a memorable exit :)
OBorg
member, 51 posts
Born under a bad sign,
in a crossfire hurricane
Sat 5 Oct 2024
at 12:36
  • msg #4

Special Guest Stars?

Understood, however when you said :
CaptainHellrazor:
I am not talking about characters from another game, just characters abandoned by players in this game.

It doesnt quite fit with :
CaptainHellrazor:
Over the years of running RPoL games I have collected a bunch of characters generated by players who have then abandoned games..(snipped)
..bringing back all these orphaned characters for one final battle (snipped)

Where your text and the reference to games plural implies you're planning on importing PCs from other games entirely.

CaptainHellrazor:
The game is owned by me, the characters belong to me as the game creator if the player chooses to leave.


To use in the same game the player signed up for yes, to use in other different games the original player didn't sign up for? Hell no.
deadtotheworld22
subscriber, 232 posts
Sat 5 Oct 2024
at 21:04
  • msg #5

Special Guest Stars?

CaptainHellrazor:
As far as I am concerned I put in as much time into character generation as the players do, if they quit the game then they have zero rights to how that character is used from that point onwards.


As a polite bit of advice (and you may already be doing this already), but it's probably not a bad idea to make that very clear at the start of your games that this is the case if it's a policy you're going to pursue, because I don't think that's the default understanding which players have when they enter into a game and it's not the principle upon which intellectual property works as a default.

It's not to say that some players aren't totally fine with the concept and indeed that there's a certain degree of expectation on players to manage their exits with the remaining players and GMs in mind, but I know a fair number of players who would seriously object both to the idea that a GM automatically puts in as much work or has as much ownership of a character as they do, and if the GM decided to continue to use their character after they left a game (regardless of the circumstances) and they had no say in the matter or right of refusal.

To address the original point, if you want to bring back ex PCs in a game at the finale, then I'd only do so if I'd either got their express permission, or at the very least that I'd been very explicit that this was going to be the case for players leaving the game from the beginning. IMHO, better practice would just be to use existing NPCs that you had written in this role.

As for whether players would be interested...I dunno. Personally, it wouldn't appeal to the bits which make roleplaying good for me - to pick up a pre-built character for a short period of time and without much to get invested in - the effort compared to what I'd get out of it isn't for me, but other people may feel differently.
CaptainHellrazor
member, 498 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 02:34
  • msg #6

Special Guest Stars?

Looks like I'll handle bit inhouse, thanks for the feedback folks
bigbadron
moderator, 16263 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 04:45

Special Guest Stars?

It might also be worth mentioning that, as far as RPoL is concerned, a player who leaves a game automatically gives the GM the right to use their character in any way he sees fit within that game - ie: the character, once submitted to a game, belongs to that game.

link to a message in another game
Smoot
member, 220 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 07:33
  • msg #8

Special Guest Stars?

As a former player: Not crazy about it, it's nothing I can do anything about, gonna pretend it didn't happen.
CaptainHellrazor
member, 499 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 09:10
  • msg #9

Special Guest Stars?

Players who demand that their character is removed from a game because they are quitting are just plain selfish.  They clearly do not care about the rest of their playing group, they may have a character that has crucial role in the story or adventure that they are playing.  Expecting that character to just vanish because someone wants to pack up their bat and ball and go home, totally ridiculous.  That is just being vindictive and trying to ruin the game for everyone else.  What a GM decides to do with your character after you leave is no longer any of your business, you already quit!  Get over it!
Gremlin
member, 183 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 12:06
  • msg #10

Special Guest Stars?

My Tabletop GM was previously a player in a group with another member who didn't play well with others IRL.

He took great delight in having said player's Chadley McLonewolf assassin as a henchman for his BBEG & our combat monster laying the smackdown on him.
Smoot
member, 221 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 12:11
  • msg #11

Special Guest Stars?

Seeing as I left after pretty much my entire group quit at the same time due to something involving the GM (in another game from the one we were playing, no less), I'm not sure that last bit was aimed at me. Anyway, going back to pretending it ain't happening.
This message was last edited by the user at 12:17, Sun 06 Oct.
CaptainHellrazor
member, 500 posts
Sun 6 Oct 2024
at 13:07
  • msg #12

Special Guest Stars?

None of my comments were aimed at any specific person.
blackcatsandcoffee
member, 1 post
Mon 7 Oct 2024
at 18:55
  • msg #13

Special Guest Stars?

This is absolutely a controversial topic, because people might leave for a number of reasons. You might not get on with another player, the GM style might not be to their liking. They might find something abrasive in how an adventure is run. You run the game but they breath life into their character. If I had a problem with someone and had to leave the game I would not want someone taking what I put hard work into, and sacrificing it because oh no they left my game.

It seems vindictive and rude to me.

If it was your own NPC, and you wanted it for the last hurrah sure. I might be interested.

How this was presented though is a gamer don't in my book.

Still to each his or her or their own.
Xeriph
member, 71 posts
Mon 7 Oct 2024
at 23:51
  • msg #14

Special Guest Stars?

I dont understand the hate here.  If you left the game, then you left the game.

Your collection of pixels are just that and people can do what they want with them.
CaptainHellrazor
member, 502 posts
Tue 8 Oct 2024
at 00:11
  • msg #15

Special Guest Stars?

Xeriph:
I dont understand the hate here.  If you left the game, then you left the game.

Your collection of pixels are just that and people can do what they want with them.

Agreed
Cyclops Was Right
member, 10 posts
Just another mutant
Tue 8 Oct 2024
at 12:20
  • msg #16

Special Guest Stars?

CaptainHellrazor:
Xeriph:
I dont understand the hate here.  If you left the game, then you left the game.

Your collection of pixels are just that and people can do what they want with them.

Agreed


Would you even know if someone was doing this in a game you no longer participated in? If you're stalking games you've quit to make sure no one is messing with a character you no longer play, the problem is you. To quote Elsa: "Let it go."
Xeriph
member, 72 posts
Tue 8 Oct 2024
at 13:27
  • msg #17

Special Guest Stars?

In reply to Cyclops Was Right (msg # 16):

Exactly. you dont want to play in the game, but you have the energy and desire to make sure no one uses the character?

not a 'little passive aggressive there'
deadtotheworld22
subscriber, 234 posts
Tue 8 Oct 2024
at 14:24
  • msg #18

Special Guest Stars?

I think (without wishing to inflame the discussion) that different people will see this different ways, and that it might be worth considering both perspectives and also the full scope of what RP can offer.

Depending on the format, some people will put a lot of themselves into their characters, with clear ideas about what that character is and what  they would/wouldn't do, their relationships and their stories, which can build up over many months and even years.

As an example, I've got characters who I've written 100k+ words for over the course of several years and there's a lot of me invested in making them who they are and as fully realised and three dimensional as possible. It's not the only thing I do and I've played in my fair share of games where that wasn't appropriate, but on the whole it's what I enjoy most about RP and I'd like to think it's as valid in the right circumstances as those who more prioritise builds and adventures.

Under those circumstances, I can understand and empathise with the idea that if they choose to leave a game for whatever reason (which could have nothing to do with the GM and the direction of the game and everything to do with irl issues, like illness, change of circumstances etc.) that they might want said character to slip out of the story with them, especially if they may be worried about that conception of the character being changed once they had left to suit a GM's needs.

I've also known if situations where a GM will pilot the character in a manner which mocks the player or the things about the character which they found important because they happened to leave, which is rare but does happen and is frankly a crap move.

This attitude of a player to a character evidently isn't universal and may be more applicable to some games than others, and it's perfectly fine not to subscribe to it if you think it's overly sentimental and schmulzy, but for some, the investment is more personal than just having an avatar to go on quests and have adventures.

Within reason, I don't think it's bad practice as a GM to try and come to a good compromise with a player about the way they exit a game, just as it's not bad practice to equally expect players to try and manage an exit with a GM as opposed to ghosting or just suddenly dropping out with no notice. You might be able to turn the exit into a plot point or indeed replace the character with one of your choosing which better reflects what you as a GM need, and take the obvious regret of losing a player and salvaging something good as a result.

From the opposite stand point, I can obviously see from a GM's perspective that dropping a major character from the game can be a major pain in the neck and that having that opportunity to run continuity is important to the wider oomph of a game, and I suspect that is why the current RPOL ruling exists. Again, if you can do a bit of give and take with an exiting player, I've tend to find it can work better from both sides (albeit in some circumstances it's not always possible)

Suffice to say, people are different and play for different reasons. I get the standpoint where some people on the thread are coming from and I understand why you have it even if it's not my approach, but I would gently suggest that it's not entirely irrational to have that emotional attachment to a character if you've invested a significant time and effort into creaying and inhabiting them, and its not entirely unfair (or motivated solely by selfishness at the expense of everyone else)  to request that the creation might leave with you, provided that you're willing to work with the GM to achieve it with as little disruption as possible to the other players.
bigbadron
moderator, 16264 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 8 Oct 2024
at 15:00

Special Guest Stars?

deadtotheworld22:
the current RPOL ruling

Which has been RPoL policy for at least 16 years, even if you only count from when the message I linked to earlier was posted (and it simply mentions a previously existing policy).

I would suggest that, if you don't feel comfortable allowing a GM to take over your character if you quit their game, then you talk it over with the GM (in private), and not join any game where the GM says that's what will happen.
deadtotheworld22
subscriber, 235 posts
Tue 8 Oct 2024
at 15:11
  • msg #20

Special Guest Stars?

bigbadron:
deadtotheworld22:
the current RPO
<quote bigbadron>
<quote deadtotheworld22>
the current RPOL ruling

Which has been RPoL policy for at least 16 years, even if you only count from when the message I linked to earlier was posted (and it simply mentions a previously existing policy).

I would suggest that, if you don't feel comfortable allowing a GM to take over your character if you quit their game, then you talk it over with the GM (in private), and not join any game where the GM says that's what will happen.


Sorry, didn't mean to imply it hasn't been the policy for said period, just poor phrasing on my part.

Agree with the suggestion, I was more just trying to expand on why people might feel in a certain way.
Alcuin
member, 85 posts
Retired Bureaucrat
RPGing since 1974
Wed 9 Oct 2024
at 10:39
  • msg #21

Special Guest Stars?

As far as I'm concerned Captain H, you're welcome to use any of my characters.

I'd object though if you'd been the two GMs who unceremoniously kicked me out - one because my character saw beauty in a rats' nest in sigil and the other because he didn't like my playing style.  Don't worry though, you weren't.

Now that said, when I saw the title of this thread, I thought you meant something else. Over the years as player and GM online and face to face I've used a lot of guest stars eh. Rolf Harris, Liza Minelli, Mama Cass Elliot, Ozzy Osborne, Geezer Butler, Lenin, Hugh Heffner and so on.
OBorg
member, 52 posts
Born under a bad sign,
in a crossfire hurricane
Wed 9 Oct 2024
at 13:02
  • msg #22

Special Guest Stars?

Alcuin:
I've used a lot of guest stars eh. Rolf Harris...

Before everyone found out, right?
Ski-Bird
subscriber, 256 posts
Wed 9 Oct 2024
at 13:29
  • msg #23

Special Guest Stars?



Alcuin:
... I've used a lot of guest stars ... Liza Minelli, Mama Cass Elliot, Ozzy Osborne, Geezer Butler, Lenin, Hugh Heffner and so on.


Like a Scooby-Doo Mystery!
Smoot
member, 222 posts
Thu 10 Oct 2024
at 07:13
  • msg #24

Special Guest Stars?

Cyclops Was Right:
Would you even know if someone was doing this in a game you no longer participated in? If you're stalking games you've quit to make sure no one is messing with a character you no longer play, the problem is you. To quote Elsa: "Let it go."


Xeriph:
In reply to Cyclops Was Right (msg # 16):

Exactly. you dont want to play in the game, but you have the energy and desire to make sure no one uses the character?

not a 'little passive aggressive there'



Who, precisely and exactly, is doing that, though? We're only discussing it in the first place because it was brought up here.

I mean, if someone wants to make up a legion of haters or something, what they do for fun isn't my business, but... really, who?
This message was last edited by the user at 07:20, Thu 10 Oct.
bigbadron
moderator, 16265 posts
He's big, he's bad,
but mostly he's Ron.
Thu 10 Oct 2024
at 14:30

Special Guest Stars?

At this point people should stop discussing whether or not the GM has the right to do this (clue: as far as RPoL is concerned, he does).  If you are interested in participating in such a game (or have some advice regarding running it) then please respond here.  All other posts will be considered off-topic from now on, and will be deleted.

Thanks.
Alcuin
member, 86 posts
Retired Bureaucrat
RPGing since 1974
Fri 11 Oct 2024
at 16:25
  • msg #26

Special Guest Stars?

OBorg:
Alcuin:
I've used a lot of guest stars eh. Rolf Harris...

Before everyone found out, right?

Well Johnny Rotten made a remark.  Then again, I did have him as a drug dealer, although Lisa Minelli complained that she could get better stuff from her mom.
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