IMHO--Communal is the way to go for most things.  Obviously a hunting lodge needs to be separate.  Probably with proximity to Yeven Wood.  A lodge/long house is quick and easy to build, can house a lot of people, and can facilitate the construction of other things.

Krackor's Temple to Gorm is always the fly in the ointment.  With no large population of dwarves nearby, I wonder if he can negotiate with the DM to have his followers be settlers instead of clergy. Then try to convert the settlers. It doesn't help that Gorm's clergy is dwindling globally and that the god is secretly dying.

Corym really just wants an office where he can research spells and design buildings/communities.  He's a mage/thief. He needs a legitimate front to cover his illicit activities. Thieves are supposed to have an 'establishment or guild'  Unless I'm actively training more mage/thieves for my organization, I'd rather have my band of rogues have practical skills and serve as very loyal eyes and ears throughout the Dalelands passing on information and finding me opportunities--only occasionally to be called together for a job.  That being said, I think Corym's 'stronghold' could easily be inside of anyone else's.

Kitheras is a ranger/bard. Rangers are supposed to have a keep/hunting lodge/swiss family robinson setup.  Bards are supposed to have performance centers--I always think of them as performer-owned hotel casinos.  In this case, though, Kitheras is also a noble. I sort of see him as an aloof Lord of the Manor who nonetheless has ample ability to keep his people spellbound with his oratory and occasional performances.

IIRC you can get a bunch of normal men and women (Which I'd think can be dwarves) as followers for clerics in the Complete Priest's handbook rules, and then have a couple of clerics and soldiers guarding them. I'll go looking, and see which rules our DM prefers.

I just looked it up!  That's a great find!  And normally the Complete Priest is so useless!

I was sent a resource that kind of worked, had tables that produced food, a 3.5 book.

I'll be honest. I don't personally see a stronghold as something that Tarron is interested in. Happy for you to do your own thing on this.

Having reread 2e's Castle Guide and skimmed 3e's Stronghold Builder, I think either one would work. I don't think there was that much price inflation between the two, though I appreciate 2e's easier way of determining how much player characters and magical items save on construction costs. I haven't ready Colville's version, but I'm curious so I'll track down a copy.

So far, I don't feel a need to rule out any of those sets. I think it'll be easier if you all decide what you want to construct, and where, and then we figure out what system works best to build it.

Use a Wish spell to....oh, we used it.
Find a Luck Blade and....sorry, my bad!

(Too soon??)

There are many instances of strongholds online that could/would meet various ideas and solutions to the quandary of the age old question "One of our Dino..." sorry, wrong film... "What do we want for a Stronghold?"

I started work on profiling our site per the 3E Stronghold Builder's Guide.

Step 1 (p. 5)
Temperate...................................+ 0%
Plains..........................................- 5%
Large Town (49-112 miles away)....+ 4%
Site in lawless area.......................-10%
Monster Lair (Leucrotta)................-  3%
Total...........................................-14%


Step 2 (p. 8)
I keep saying that putting together a fortified hunter's lodge would be the ideal initial construction.  Something we can stay in while we hunt down the local monsters, and something for our workers to camp nearby while they work on the next project. Therefore I've chosen Grand House in Step 2.

Grand House (7)

Step 3 (p. 8)

Given my skills, I think the walls should be Superior Masonry which has a cost of 2,500gp per space. IF there's a hillock that we can build into, the interior walls could be packed earth and thus save us some money.

I additionally think that we should ring the house with a free standing wall of Packed Earth at a cost of 10gp per section.  We're in a wild land, afterall.  Can't just allow free movement in and out.

Since we're doing this on the cheap, we're going to take 1 unit of Barracks for 400gp.  This will allow us to sleep ten people relatively comfortably.

We'll need a Basic Kitchen for 2,000gp. A basic bath is .5 units for 400gp, and a Gatehouse is .5 units for 1,000gp.

A Basic Stable for 1,000gp should see to most of our mounts.

An Auditorium for 1,000gp is pricier, but can be used by each of our priests and our bard to accomplish their ends.

A Dining Hall for 2,000gp.

Finally, a Basic Storage Area 250gp that will serve as our vault for loot storage while we're away.

      400 Barracks
+ 2,000 Kitchen
+    400 Bath
+ 1,000 Gatehouse
+ 1,000 Stable
+ 1,000 Auditorium
+ 2,000 Dining Hall
+    250 Storage
+17,500 Superior Masonry Walls*
+?????? Freestanding Wall**

Total: 25,550

21,973 after cost modification (not including any spells we can come up with)

The guide says that time to construct takes 1 week per 10k, so we're looking at 2 weeks.

---

*calculation is wrong--this is a maximal cost.  There's a formula that if I had the time to look at would probably make it about 70% of this cost.
**(can't quite figure that one out)
This message was last edited by the player at 17:36, Tue 28 June 2022.

The Dreams of the Ancients has just under 20,000* in holdings right now, so this would entirely clean us out. It's time to make some money in those ruins.

---

*Barring the sale of the Platinum Elf-head coin which is unique in value.  I can't find the post, but basically, only a thousand of them were ever made, and in the days when Myth Drannor was still alive, it traded for 100 x it's face value.  The likely value it has today would vary widely, but the high end would be to a collector.

In reply to Corym Ildroun (msg # 12):

First of all, if building into a Hill, this will give us the Earth and rocks for a rise and rock for the building/hearth.  If building in the Woods, clearing a small area will give us the wood.  This may not save much but it is a saving  By building next to a woods not far from the river, we could also divert some of the flow to a large pond where a waterwheel can be put up for when grain is gathered, So edge of forest, river and plains by a hill for the win.

There is Magic that can be utilised, Krackor's Elemental magic is solely Earth.  Need to get to next level then we are sorted.  When Krackor gets to next level, he can cast 5th level spells and thus Mother Load, so could potentially locate on top of a seam.  Also Transmute Rock to Mud/Transmute Mud to Rock, which could open up passages and rooms underground and then Stone Shape stairs, windows and doors.

There are also many spells that have the potential to be made permanent through getting the right ingredients and preparations rather than the Permanency spell.

I'm guessing that the Basic Kitchen is a separate room, just have a massive heath in a Longhouse and you don't need a separate Basic Kitchen, that will save 2000gp.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:08, Tue 28 June 2022.

Those are rulings that the DM needs to make.  The use of those spells aren't specifically addressed in the book.  I'm just pricing it as the guide would have us do.  Whatever discounts the DM wants to cut us for local sourcing and innovative spell use is up to him.

We could also pledge to keep the peace in the region and then fundraise from surrounding settlements that are annoyed by the monster generation of this area.

We'd only be able to do that once the followers started to arrive.  We'd be away half the year or more.

Fair enough.

I hate to 'farm' XP in D&D, but our conflict averse nature is really driving some of the lack of XP advancement.  Taking the time to do Monster Hunts in the Three Rivers Land would give an in-game justification for XP farming.

It would also be down-time from being hin Myth Drannor.  Half the year there, half the year doing dutiful localised monster hunting (and brewing).

I looked closely at the Transmure Rock to Mud/Mud to Rock Spell.  I was initially hopeful that it would help us manufacture our own bricks quickly/cheaply, but it specifies that the stone made is soft.  The best I can figure is that Rock-to-Mud could help us excavate more efficiently or level the construction site effectively. Wall of Stone seems like the Gold Standard for this.

Switching from Masonry to wood would save us quite a bit.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:47, Mon 04 July 2022.

Wall of Stone could create 0.25 inch thick and 20 square feet per level.  The PHD states that the wall is permanent but susceptible to Dispel Magic.    I am not sure if this is an issue?  Who in their right mind would cast Dispel Magic at a building?

A 9th level wizard, if you were to hire/meet/find one, could create a wall section 2.25" thick 180 square feet per casting.

What rules are we using with regards of resting and memorising?  Are we working strictly once per day or do we allow more than one cycle or rest+memorise per day?

That 'susceptible to dispel magic' sounds bogus to me.  We'd be more than happy for your help!

That is to say, I could see if it were freshly cast in combat--sure.  Dispel. But days, months, years afterward? I call BS
This message was last edited by the player at 15:52, Mon 04 July 2022.

In reply to Corym Ildroun (msg # 21):

Mild problem is that I struggle to justify Wall of Stone over Chaos as 5th level spell.  Are there likely places where we could procure it as a scroll?

Not in Ashabenford, and not in Glen (burned that bridge).  Highmoon, Essembra, or Shadowdale would be the nearest places.

If you're joining us in tandem with Almareth, you may have come by way of Highmoon.  Wall of Stone is just outside my casting ability too.

Okay, so, trying to get all of the comments in one place.

Stronghold specifics:
* Ashabenford is a Small Town by SBG rules. It's within 112 miles if you're building on the river, or farther away if you're building on the plains deeper in 3RL. So that would be either a +7 or +10% modifier
* Superior masonry walls cost 3,000 gp per stronghold space. For a 7 ss building, 70% of the walls are exterior, 30% are interior. So the exterior walls are 2,100 gp per ss. If you go with wood interior walls, those are free, since I assume everything is on a single level
  * 21,000 gp if all walls are superior masonry
  * 14,700 gp if the interior walls are wood
* The freestanding wall's cost depends on how big an area you want to enclose. Probably the smallest practical wall would be 340', which gives 10' between the wall and the back and sides of the lodge, and 20 feet in front. (see rough sketch below). That would cost 3,400 gp for a packed earth wall and 102,000 gp for a superior masonry wall, for instance. You would also need either a gatehouse, or to leave an opening in the wall.

* Everything else looks fine, though it's kind of a weird mix of things. Also, are the barracks for you, or for your staff? If it's for you, where are you putting up the people who would, I assume, be living there full time, keeping the place up and guarding the stuff you put in storage?
* Also, since you're very close to the forest, you can use the -10% cost to wood walls cost modifier

Spells:
* Rock to mud only works on rock. It does not work on earth. Same with stone shape. For either spell to be effective, you would need to excavate until you hit rock, which in rich agricultural land like the dales can be twenty feet or more
* Sandstone, on the other hand, is a perfectly acceptable building material. It's obviously not as durable as something like granite, of which there is a lot in the Dales, but it definitely can be used.
* By RAW, walls of stone remain permanently vulnerable to dispel magic. In practice, I agree with Corym that after a couple of months at most it's permanent and would need to be taken down by other means.
* 5th level is starting to get into the area where it's hard to find scrolls, or wizard willing and able to trade for it from spellbooks. You would need to go searching. And if you found it on a scroll, you would still need to do spell research to add it to your books.
* Regarding spells per day, you have to have 8 hours of rest before you can memorize spells, barring unusual circumstances like the nap spell. So you usually only get one load out of spells each day. But you can memorize as many instances of a spell as you want for each level, up to your max allowed (i.e. you could memorize all magic missile in your 1st level slots).

Re: Barracks

See if this makes sense:

it can be difficult to gauge when/if we’re going to get XP and it what quantity. Krackor suggested that it’ll be a year or more before we can pop a level and get followers. As such this “hunting lodge” is really just designed for us. We’ll be the ones in the barracks. While we’re gone, there’ll likely be no one there. It’s designed in such a way, however, that a Ranger or Thief could use this place as their stronghold long term since they have fewer followers.

At least that was my idea.

I also think that construction is likely to be a year away since we won’t want to bankrupt the company on a project that only half of the company is currently invested in.

This “hunting lodge” is just where we’re going to stay while pacifying the land and funding/planning the larger settlement. Think if it like the portable building that a construction company puts up on a site that they’re going to have to spend a year or more at.

I think that the likely site is just at the edge of the woods near the river—though our exploration will determine the viability of that plan

((originally posted in Discord, transcribed to avoid it getting lost in the scroll))

Is it possible for us to make a hidden cache? What proficiency would be needed for it? I mean, survival caches are a thing in survival training, so maybe I could.

A hidden cache in the stronghold? Or in the wilderness? The answer is yes to both. Putting it into the building would be an Engineering check. For the wilderness... hmm. When I wake up I'll take a look at NWP's and put something together.

As a temporary structure, it can all be wood and then replace sections as and when.

It's mentioned about stone, the area is full of meandering/rolling hills, hence why find an outcrop, will make it easier to excavate and safer initially as we'd have a solid wall behind us.

Flowstone is a great spell to cover anything in rock that is not susceptible to Dispel Magic. I'm sure the query about Wall of Stone was answered in Sage Advice.!