Fairchild's Boarding House ((OOC II))   Posted by The Stray.Group: 0
The Stray
 GM, 1509 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Sun 1 Mar 2015
at 20:23
Re: New Edge!
I am going out of town for the week. I'll have limited internet access, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to make regular posts. Look for me to start posting again on Friday, if you don't hear from me before.
Tan Xiaohan
 Screaming Rabbit, 821 posts
 Born to run
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha 0 W0R0B0
Sun 1 Mar 2015
at 20:27
Re: New Edge!
Have fun with trucks!
John Truman
 player, 23 posts
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha -1 wrb
Sun 1 Mar 2015
at 21:16
Re: New Edge!
In reply to The Stray (msg # 942):

Deja vu!
Logan West
 player, 83 posts
 U.S. Marshal
 P6 T5 W0 F0 Cha+2 1W6R2B
Mon 2 Mar 2015
at 01:44
Re: New Edge!
Best of luck with the trip and all!
Art C. Wiley
 Finally Listening, 289 posts
 Speckled brother
 P6 T5 W0 F0 Cha0 W3R2B4L1
Mon 2 Mar 2015
at 01:57
Re: New Edge!
Yes, good luck Stray!
The Stray
 GM, 1510 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Tue 3 Mar 2015
at 06:03
Re: New Edge!
LEt's see if this works...I may have some posting ability,  assuming I figure out how to make pretty colored text with this method. I now hve access to a bluetooth keyboard for the android I got from a friend for cheap.Watch this space.
Tan Xiaohan
 Screaming Rabbit, 822 posts
 Born to run
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha 0 W0R0B0
Tue 3 Mar 2015
at 09:19
Re: New Edge!
[watches space] I will now imagine you typing on the head of a patient little humanoid robot. Truly, the future is here.
Janet Weiss
 player, 603 posts
 I feel released!
 P4 T5 W0 F0 Cha4 W2R0B1L0
Tue 3 Mar 2015
at 14:24
Re: New Edge!
Tan Xiaohan:
[watches space] I will now imagine you typing on the head of a patient little humanoid robot. Truly, the future is here.



Tan Xiaohan
 Screaming Rabbit, 823 posts
 Born to run
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha 0 W0R0B0
Tue 3 Mar 2015
at 17:45
Re: New Edge!
:D I want one.
The Stray
 GM, 1514 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 15:02
Attention Harrowed Folks!
This is the sum total Rule Text I have on the Ghost edge for DLR:

quote:
Ghost
Requirements: Seasoned, Harrowed

The Harrowed decides if he is corporeal or incorporeal at the beginning of each of his actions. He must remain in that state until his next action—he cannot attack and then go incorporeal.

While ghosted, the deader is intangible, though he is still visible and magical attacks affect him normally. The Harrowed may remain ghosted as long as he continues to concentrate. If he suffers damage while in this state, he must make a Spirit roll or become tangible once more.


It is, as you can see, rather useless for answering questions, as it doesn't talk about corner cases at all.

However, the edge has changed in Deadlands:Noir and Deadlands: Hell on Earth Reloaded.

quote:
Ghost
Requirements: Heroic, Harrowed

The character decides if he is corporeal or incorporeal at the beginning of each of his actions. He must remain in that state until his next action—he can’t attack and then go ethereal. While ghosted, the Harrowed is intangible, though he is still visible and magical attacks affect him normally.

The deader may remain ghosted as long as he wishes, but it requires concentration, which saddles him with a –1 to other skill rolls. If he somehow suffers damage, say from a magical or supernatural attack while in this state, he must make a Spirit roll or immediately become tangible.


Notice the Rank increase in the requirements, as well as the addition of the penalty. This is consistent across both DL:HOER and DL:N, which tells me that this is some errata for this particular ability. I'm certain they did this because, as written, Ghost is too good an Edge. Every Harrowed PC I've had in my games has taken it. That's the mark of something overpowered.

The only real guidance I have on how Ghost works is the Intangibility power from the Savage Worlds: Deluxe book, which is what I've been basing my rulings regarding the power on up to this point.

quote:
Intangibility
Rank: Heroic
Power Points: 5
Range: Touch
Duration: 3 (2/round)
Trappings: Ghost form, body of shadow, gaseous transformation.

With a successful arcane skill roll, the user becomes incorporeal. He is unable to affect the physical world, and it in turn cannot affect him. He can travel through walls, and non-magical weapons pass straight through him. Any items carried at the time of casting are also incorporeal.

While incorporeal, the mage may affect other incorporeal beings (including himself), and he is still susceptible to magic attacks, including physical powers, such as bolt, and magic items.

The character may not become corporeal while within someone or something. If that occurs, the caster is instantly shunted to the nearest open space, and he is Shaken.


Notice that Intangibility is also a Heroic-level power, and has both a high Power Point cost and a high Maintenance cost.

The official forums are little help, either. The answer is, basically, "It depends on the trappings." This is unhelpful and answers nothing

Quite frankly, I am getting a bit fed up dealing with Ghost. I am at the point where I am seriously contemplating adopting the version of the Edge from DL:N/DL:HOER (meaning none of the PCs who have it would qualify for it, and would need to choose a new Edge to replace it), or just flat-out bringing the banhammer down on it as a power available to PCs at all.

Clearly, something need to be done before I pull my hair out over this.

So. Here is my offer to you, players with Ghost. Do you want to keep the Edge? If you do, then we are going to need to discuss what the trappings of the Ghost ability are and what limitations are going to be imposed on the power to bring it down to something that is reasonable for a Seasoned-Rank edge. Do you not want to deal with limitations on the Edge? Then you are going to need to switch it out for a different edge.

This message was last edited by the GM at 15:02, Sat 07 Mar 2015.

Ezekiel Starkweather
 player, 136 posts
 Mountain Man
 P5 T8 W1 F0 Cha -2 w2r2b3
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 15:07
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
I don't mind the deadlands noir version. Considering all I have been dealing with, I would point out how would I have survived without it?
The Stray
 GM, 1515 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 15:21
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
Aside from negotiating with the house and/or the mistress, giving in to the House's demands, or figuring out some clever way to trick or bluff it, you mean?

Really, I don't mind it as a one-off thing, something you can tap into in times of need. What greatly annoys me is the "can always switch back and forth" nature of the edge. It costs mages a hefty chunk of PP to use the power, there's a roll that they can fail, it takes up their whole action, and eventually they can run out of power point and be forced back in to solid state. And it's still powerful even then. Things that allow PCs to bypass or negate challenges this easily should really come with some sort of drawback, cost, or limiting factor. It should, at the very least, take an action to do and require a roll, and frankly I think it should cost Bennies as well.

This message was last edited by the GM at 15:22, Sat 07 Mar 2015.

Ezekiel Starkweather
 player, 137 posts
 Mountain Man
 P5 T8 W1 F0 Cha -2 w2r2b3
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 15:45
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
In reply to The Stray (msg # 953):

So I should have tried the thing my character has little chance at success at? I did not see any of those options being very good. Why would the killer house tell me truth or even keep any promises? Why would someone with mind control need to go along with my opinions? She can decide my opinions for me.

In terms of raw power, the harrowed are on the low end of the specturm. Given what happened in combat just now, would you say I am the most powerful character there? Hell, I punched one of those things and stunned it. That was the limit of my effectiveness.
Tan Xiaohan
 Screaming Rabbit, 826 posts
 Born to run
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha 0 W1R0B0
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 16:14
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
Any reason for the sudden annoyance with Ghost? I think the simple fix would be a requirement for a Spirit roll to activate it - a Success gets you three rounds, like the average Power, a raise would get you six, many raises would last until your concentration runs out...no?
The Stray
 GM, 1516 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 21:16
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
@Ezekial:

The game is an obstacle course. Dealing with situations your character isn't well-suited for is part of the package. Allow me to quote the Marshal's guide:

quote:
Encounter Difficulties

You might be wondering about the difficulty of the encounters listed throughout this book. Are they intended for characters of Novice Rank? Seasoned?

The answer is none of the above. The encounters are created to reflect the natural (or in some cases unnatural) organization of the characters or creatures listed. That means your group had best be warned that this isn't like certain other games that automatically set the challenge level to something they can deal with. Sometimes a horrific abomination simply needs to be avoided, or clever tactics or hired guns employed to defeat it.

We do this both because it’s more natural and it’s more of a challenge. Besides, any system we create would have a difficult time fitting the nature of your posse. If a big game hunter hires on a squad of expert riflemen to cover his back, it doesn't make sense that suddenly every rattler has four buddies as well. That means that just as in real life, exploring the world with a larger party is safer (though it might not fit your posse’s plan to keep a low profile). Of course, it also means the heroes have to feed the Extras and provide food, water, and ammo for them as well. And don’t forget some of these apples are no doubt rotten.


In other words, your character found himself in over his head. He was not unique in this.

But, again, I am not really snapping at the existence of the Ghost power. It is frustrating to deal with as a GM mostly because of the amount of rules discussions it's brought up, like the current situation on the Deadwood Smoldering thread. It's also frustrating to deal with because it is under-costed for what it does. This frustration has been building for a while for me. I'm fine with Zek or Janet using it, I just would like to figure out all the trappings so that that I don't have to answer a new rules question every time something happens with it, and put some limitations on it.

My preferred version of the Edge would read like this:

quote:
Ghost
Requirements: Veteran, Harrowed

Once per session the character can spend a Fate Chip to activate the intangibility power. By spending a white chip, the character gains 5 Power Points with which to activate the power during that session. A red chip grants 1d6+5 Power Points (and does not grant the Marshal a draw from the pot), and a blue chip grants 2d6+5 Power Points. A Legend chip grants the same as a blue chip, but the character also gains a +2 bonus to activate the power. The character rolls Spirit to activate the intangibility, which takes an action. He decides if he is corporeal or incorporeal at the beginning of each of his actions. He must remain in that state until his next action — he can’t attack and then go ethereal. While ghosted, the Harrowed is intangible, though he is still visible and magical attacks affect him normally.

The deader may remain ghosted as long as he wishes, but it requires concentration, which saddles him with a –1 to other skill rolls. If he somehow suffers damage, say from a magical or supernatural attack while in this state, he must make a Spirit roll or immediately become tangible. If a Harrowed rolls a 1 on his Spirit die (regardless of the Wild Die) the manitou takes control of the power. Damaging effects are directed at a random ally, while beneficial spells affect the most powerful enemy in the area. The harrowed may not pass through objects containing or made with Ghost Rock (such as raw Ghost Rock, powdered Ghost Rock mixed with other substances, the smoke from burning Ghost Rock, or Ghost Steel). He must also choose one other relatively common material that he cannot pass through.


Is this version of Ghost acceptable?

This message was last edited by the GM at 22:19, Sat 07 Mar 2015.

Thunder Walker
 player, 412 posts
 Dead
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha # 1W8R0B
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 21:59
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
How about a Dominion check every time you go in and out of it?
Tan Xiaohan
 Screaming Rabbit, 827 posts
 Born to run
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha 0 W1R0B0
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 22:17
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
The Stray:
He must also choose one other material that he cannot pass through.


I vote ice cream, to give your arcanely knowledgeable enemies logistical headaches.

It strikes me that a Harrowed struck for magical damage halfway through, say, a bar, might be in trouble if suddenly corporeal. That said, am I really the only one whose first thought regarding use of Ghost in combat was "ghost up to target, stick hand through chest, become corporeal"?
The Stray
 GM, 1519 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 22:25
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
@Thunder Walker

A Dominion check every time might be an option. I'm not sure if that mechanic isn't a bit too punishing, though, given that it may lead to a character temporarily or permanently losing control of their character for what might be an extended period of time (especially in this game, which is orders of magnitude slower than a regular one). If it's acceptable to those who have the power, then we may adopt it.

@Tan Xiaohan

Fine, relatively common material then.

Using the Intangibility spell as a guide, this is less of a problem.

Intangibility Spell:
A character may not become corporeal while within someone or something. If that occurs, the caster is instantly shunted to the nearest open space, and he is Shaken.


This also precludes any combat ghosting.

This message was last edited by the GM at 22:26, Sat 07 Mar 2015.

Tan Xiaohan
 Screaming Rabbit, 828 posts
 Born to run
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha 0 W1R0B0
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 22:39
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
Oh...so more like potatoes? Would potatoes then be able to hurt Ghosted characters like magical objects?

I'm not the only one! Though that does raise interesting questions about enclosed spaces. Like, if one un-ghosted in a collapsed mine shaft, would one be teleported horizontally outside?

Also the comment box is complaining that it wants a new thread.
Ezekiel Starkweather
 player, 138 posts
 Mountain Man
 P5 T8 W1 F0 Cha -2 w2r2b3
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 22:52
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
In reply to The Stray (msg # 956):

It looks like you are turning the power into a spell that the casters use. The difference being if course, that the casters get a lot more verastility and effect. Harrowed already get less powers than the spell casters, and they for the most part are somewhat less effective. Have you looked at the other powers? I have to spend a edge on each one. I think the intangibility was upgraded as a reflection of that. Do casters need fate chips to make thier powers work?
The Stray
 GM, 1520 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Sat 7 Mar 2015
at 23:40
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
In reply to Ezekiel Starkweather (msg # 961):

You are correct. I am turning the Ghost edge into a variant of the Knack (spirit touched) edge, which gives people who are otherwise not casters access to powers. Harrowed are not casters, never were intended to be casters, and are the only AB that can have a second AB. If you wanted the versatility of a caster, you should have played a caster and spent the appropriate edges getting there. Being a harrowed is a "get out of death free" card, not a lifestyle choice. The Harrowed have a lot pf physical powers because being tough and unkillable is their schtick. Also, they get to Count Coup and gain new abilities (the Shiwana, for instance, has a coup that allows Harrowed to get the windstorm power as a Knack [spirit touched] effect).

And the very fact that the other Harrowed powers aren't anywhere near the level of power of Ghost is why I'm upset and frustrated. The Noir and HOER versions of most of these powers are actually greatly improved. Ghost is the only one that got a significant beating with the Nerf bat. That should tell you something right there.

Changing the power so that it specifically references the Intangibility power (which, I should point out, is normally completely unavailable to other PC casters in Deadlands) allows me to make better rulings on what it does, how it interacts with things, and what can be done with it. Adding a chip requirement introduces a duration and a limiting factor, both of which the power sorely needs.

Frankly, I am at the point where the Ghost edge either gets nerfed, or I ban it entirely. Your choice. What will not happen is the Edge working as it is currently written from this point forward. Not for you, and not for the NPCs (like Wild Bill) who have it.

You have a voice in how I nerf Ghost, not whether I nerf it. Because my other option is to ban it, and have you take a different power in its place.

Now, that said, I will be updating the House Rules thread with all the Harrowed edges from Noir and Hell on Earth, and will consider those the official rules for how those powers work going forward, superseding the information from the Deadlands Player's Guide. When Stone and a Hard Place drops, I will update the list with any Harrowed powers from that book (there's supposed to be several). You'll have plenty of options to pick from. Most of the Noir/HOE versions are more powerful and more useful than the ones in the DLRPG. The only exception will be Ghost, once we've figured out how best to limit it.

This message was last edited by the GM at 23:44, Sat 07 Mar 2015.

Janet Weiss
 player, 605 posts
 I feel released!
 P4 T5 W0 F0 Cha4 W2R0B1L0
Sun 8 Mar 2015
at 03:07
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
First: one "house rule" I'd strongly suggest is this: While incorporeal, the Harrowed cannot harm any corporeal being or item in any way.  Period.  You also can't hurt them by coming out of incorporeal, such as sticking your hand into someone and becoming solid, or dropping an object on them and letting it become solid.  Any clever attempt to bypass this will receive a brief applause, followed by you taking whatever damage you would have dealt.  They take nothing.

Yes, this is unfair if they can hurt you, since you can't hurt them.  Oh well.

Second, I'm not fond of the fate chip to activate thing, but I see that the problem is rapid switching.  So, how about this: it takes an opposed Spirit roll, modified by Dominion, to activate (still a free roll at the start of your turn), and if you succeed, you're intangible for 3 rounds.  This is in line with other powers, most of which are 3/1.  However, in order to come out before the time is up, you need to make another Spirit roll and spend a fate chip.  Failure means you stay insubstantial.  This also requires an action; you can take a -2MAP to do something else that turn, as normal.

I don't like making it a Dominion roll, because if I succeed a lot, then I might get more control over the Manitou.
Ezekiel Starkweather
 player, 139 posts
 Mountain Man
 P5 T8 W1 F0 Cha -2 w2r2b3
Mon 9 Mar 2015
at 18:34
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
Janet Weiss:
First: one "house rule" I'd strongly suggest is this: While incorporeal, the Harrowed cannot harm any corporeal being or item in any way.  Period.  You also can't hurt them by coming out of incorporeal, such as sticking your hand into someone and becoming solid, or dropping an object on them and letting it become solid.  Any clever attempt to bypass this will receive a brief applause, followed by you taking whatever damage you would have dealt.  They take nothing.


I think that is the rule, and I agree with it. I have always tried to play Zek using the power as such.

I also agreed with the inital ruling before you added the fate chip cost. I have no problem with having to roll, at a minus, to make the power work under stressful conditions.
Thunder Walker
 player, 413 posts
 Dead
 P5 T5 W0 F0 Cha # 1W8R0B
Mon 9 Mar 2015
at 18:41
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
Ezekiel, this discussion has been moved to the new OOC thread.
The Stray
 GM, 1526 posts
 The Marshal
 'round these parts
Tue 10 Mar 2015
at 00:27
Re: Attention Harrowed Folks!
This thread is now closed. Please resume posting on the "Grand hotel" thread.