Oh hey, look.


The plot point about War and its horrors has us debating the nature of War and its horrors.

Fine. I'll grant this. But my point is that Custer didn't get this far on his own. He's a leader, but nobody rules alone. Custer's officers are just as complicit in that as Custer himself.



The point of military training is to overcome a person's natural instinct to not be a murderer. To harden them into killing machines against a defined enemy, who are Not Like Us. They may not have started out that way, but that's what they were molded into.

The Sioux aren't people to Custer's army. They are "renegade savages that need to be shown their proper place." They are The Enemy.



What makes you think they'll suddenly stop deluding themselves about that if Custer is gone?



Where exactly do you think most of these people came from in the first place? Where do you think you are? Also, take a look at Africa or the Middle East if you don't think small bands of loosely connected groups can't do enormous amounts of damage in the aggregate.



Nations. Plural. The Sioux Nations are not a unified force, they are a group of closely-related tribes banded together out of necessity. They don't see themselves as a unified people the way the soldiers do.



Er, yes. Yes, I suppose that's true.

1. Fictional universe where people live in Fear Levels which adversely affect their psychology.  Also Custer could be getting imbued with supernatural charisma to bring out the worst in people.
   
2. It's not necessarily that all of these people are clinical sociopaths, it's that they have justified what they're doing be it through groupthink, Custer's charisma, their own personal misfortunes, etc.
   
3. Again, real Custer and real world happenings, not really comparable here.  We have to look at the fictional universe as it is.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
 Was there a man dismay'd?
 Not tho' the soldier knew
 Someone had blunder'd:
 Theirs not to make reply,
 Theirs not to reason why,
 Theirs but to do and die:
 Into the valley of Death
 Rode the six hundred."

And I'll leave it at that.



But that's not the point.  US Soldiers, or men claiming to be US soldiers, attacking the Lakota is going to cause the poop to strike the oscillating air blades.



Well that's the other half of this, you don't want the Lakota to attack the faux soldiers either.  Custer keeping these thugs in one cohesive block deters them.  Whether Custer attacks them, or Custer dies and his remnants attack them, or the Lakota get emboldened by Custer's death and attack them first or whatever, it's all the same result: the Union Army showing up here in force dropping artillery shells and God knows what else.

Set up the Lakota to defeat and kill Custer's force and you get the same result as Custer's men independently attacking the Sioux.

Imagine the newspaper headlines "Custer Assassinated!  US Army retaliate only to be Slaughtered by Savage Sioux!  Deadwood Sacked!"

Then Garfield is elected in a landslide and you have poop striking the oscillating blades.

(this is also why I don't like the kidnapping him idea either it will cause the same outcome)

I mean we can play it out that way and kill Custer.  It's a valid course of action. Zeke seems to be some kind of Harrowed badass and there's nothing stopping Zeke from doing it, and I'm not even telling you OOC one player to another player don't do it.  It would be epic and the consequences would be very interesting regardless of who is correct.  I just have a different subjective opinion of what should logically happen when pull it off.

I can see it now, Belle conscripted at gunpoint as a laundress and marched into the nearest garrison and told to make them fancy weapons what make the Injuns go boom.  And to figure out a better detergent for getting blood out of blue wool.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:18, Thu 23 Mar 2017.

Maybe, but not all of them are demented sociopaths ether. I am sure some, if not many of them look at what Custer is doing and question themselves. If he was not there, unitining all these factions-some of them may just report back to base with their men and say "Reporting for duty!" And hope to be assigned a sane commander.



Given that career soldiers also serve with others, and other commanders, many of them will see the difference between a brutal child murderer and rapist vs a officer doing a difficult job. There is no military training that can totally remove empathy from a human being...unless they did not have it in the first place. You can train men to kill, you can't train them not to suffer for doing so. Unless they are already don't feel empathy...and did not get jobs as stock brokers and politicians.



You know what unifies people real quick? Raped and dead women and children. Make people think their wives and children are next. The Nations have a lot more to lose then the union army-who will eventually go home. The Nations know what awaits them if they lose...



Maybe, but as I said-Zek promised Kills Iron Horse he would not unless she or her people gave him permission. At the end of the day-its their people at risk-not Zek. If it was just about his hatred and revenge, he would not have bothered to ask permission.

It's been mentioned in passing, I think, but it's worth directly saying tht Custer's army are not entirely his soldiers. Most of his soldiers died in Little Big Horn. He's been gathering, not soldiers, but people who are sympathetic to his cause (or the money that cause brings).

Custer's Army is filled principally with people who CHOSE to join him. That's what he's been doing for the past 4 years, gathering people who would CHOOSE to march into the nations and slaughter anyone they can, all to satisfy his bruised pride and deranged hatred.

Unless I misread something.

In reply to Matthew Broaddale (msg # 428):

Did they chose it because they are desperate-for money...or did they chose it because they just love rape and slaughter? People make a lot of bad choices when looking down a barrel of a gun-metaphorical and literally. It does not make them all monsters.

Given the general attitudes of the Deadlands writers, I would  think the assumption would be "Because Custer's message of manifest destiny and evil savage redskins and plunder speaks to them".

Now, in a more nuanced game, like Stray's, the answer could be closer to either of your options. But I don't think it's likely that even a decent percentage of Custer's army are acting because of a join-or-starve mentality.

Implying that a significant amount of these men are at barrel's end is disingenuous. There are easier ways to make money and get your jollies than by marching into enemy territory on a crusade.

Once again, before Manning, almost all of Custer's army was people who heard 'THOSE EVIL SAVAGES ARE ON OUR LAND, AS SOON AS WE HAVE A LARGE ENOUGH FORCE WE WILL TAKE BACK OUR LAND and also yall can have all the ghost rock in Deadwood"  and thought "Sounds good."

After 10k Arrows, you are right, more of the force consists of men that didn't sign up for it.

WHICH IS WHY convincing Manning he's been drinking the kool-aid is probably a more likely way to defang Custer.

3 years ago,



Months ago,



After Custer is killed:

#2. If they were desperate for money in general, they'd just be outlaws wherever they came from or mercenarying off in Mexico, not specifically signing up to eradicate natives and nab land with bonus gold at the end of it.

(where did you get 'a different woman every night' though? I heard about that one native girl/teen his wife nearly divorced him over, nothing else...are you thinking of Temüjin?)

Capture is by far preferable, because a) a captured Custer can be forced to terms and b) there's a lot you can live through; those in his train aren't going to provoke those holding him into diabling their general to prove a point.

Also, you know we're talking objective cause-and-effect when Belle and I agree on something. There isn't a philosophical angle to this, it's just "mercs - Custer = bandits, bandits + ethnic tensions = wholsesale slaughter of targeted ethnicity".

As opposed to "Custer+Mercs=Union army=Already determined wholesale slaughter of targeted ethnicity?" The difference is, we know what happens if he is allowed to live. Our lady of the future already told us. Anything else is mere speculation on your part.

She said what happens if he lives AND Garfield wins (likely) AND Garfield sends Union troops to help (fair) AND it erupts into all out war.

Making Custer less sympathetic (by breaking his power base) or the situation less appealing back east (by strengthening the Sioux Nations) or defusing tensions further by talking the sioux down from fighting (a bit paternal, but possibly easier than dealing with crazy custer) all could stop things in their tracks.


Fuck, someone set Deadwood on fire and kill everyone inside. THat's more likely to halt a war than killing Custer.

I will get right on that deadwood thing...

*Smacks own forehead*

Anyways...



http://www.dailykos.com/story/...68-148th-Anniversary

In reply to Ezekiel Starkweather (msg # 433):

There we go! [points] See, here's the simple flaw in your equation:



...these guys aren't officially the Union Army yet. The Union Army turns up if you kill Custer (or ignore him until Garfield is elected and they go over to legitimise what he's doing, as in Jackie's timeline).



Clan Whateley (mostly Janet, recently Roger) and the posse are doing their best! The Ravenites are bemused, as they wanted to do that.

[of Custer] I think that's the same "fine looking one" I knew of. Mo-nah-se-tah, right?

In reply to Tan Xiaohan (msg # 436):

I am afraid that that logic does not pan out. If the union army shows up when Custer dies,  then they are supporting him. He's backed by them, officially or not.

As for the rape, I am pretty sure that is not the first time it happened. Custer does not strike me as the type to stick with only one rape victim, particularly when he has power over so many captive women.

??? What does that have to do with not killing him (and thus causing the army to show up)? The bit in red is still false unless Custer dies or everyone waits a month for the timeline to dovetail with Jackie's, no matter what intangible implications are up in the air. Presently, they're mercs. That's why Manning was sent to try and capture Custer.

Possibly, but your quote from an eyewitness there says the prisoners were distributed between the officers that Zek so badly wants to give a chance at being in charge and that Custer took one for his personal use (I assume that was Mo-nah-se-tah, as the timing fits), not that Custer was roaming the countryside looking for fresh women to abuse daily.

Not that it makes him a better person, just "abuse the prisoners we've got" is a different dynamic to "find prisoners to abuse"; again, warlording and distributing spoils (human beings included) rather than being a remarkably efficient psychopathic Great Man terrorising poor innocent soldiers who didn't know what they were there for really.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:12, Thu 23 Mar 2017.

Tan's logic does pan out, if you pay attention to the nuances in the setting and in this game.

• The Union under President Grant wants to arrest Custer.
• Grant's opponent Garfield likes Custer and is agitating against the Sioux in his campaign.
• Grant is losing support, Garfield is catching up. The election is close.
• Zeke kills Custer and turn him into a martyr, Garfield blames it on the Sioux, wins in a landslide, and the real army comes in after the Sioux.

Stray, have we seen any captive native women sex slaves in town? Logan and von Steinhof at least have spent a bit of time around the soldiers.

In reply to Tan Xiaohan (msg # 438):

1-i am pretty sure the union gave Custer material support,  so they are always backing him. So they are still 'with' him. Even if the change their minds later.

2-The way I read it, it sounds like he had access to multiple women,  which makes sense given the other circumstances.

3-i never said I want them so badly to be in charge,  I am saying there is more than one possibly situation as a result of his death. Hell, Zek may kill him right in front of his men-which makes the whole 'blame the Indians thing' a lot harder to pan out.

The idea that things will happen only one way without taking the other variables into account is a streach. Unless another Jackie comes back from the future to stop me from killing the savior of the Union, one general Custer.

Finally the entire conversation is pointless,  because I already said I was not gonna kill him.

For the forth time.

Still want to though. Nobody has convinced me that killing that piece of crap would have horrible side effects without serious GM fiat.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:25, Thu 23 Mar 2017.

In the interest of fairness to Zeke, there ARE official Union troops with Custer right now: The ones Manning brought with him. These men are the ones who may have "following orders" mentality.

In fact, I think it's worth discussing whether we think Manning would have control over his men if Custer dies. That's an aspect I don't think we've discussed yet. If Custer died and Manning was able to maintain control, could he possibly restore sanity to the situation? It would have to be something that didn't look like the hand of the Indians. Something super far from it. Like, if Custer was struck by lightning or Frank Bryant himself did it.


Separately from that:

Now, the fact that Manning is still there means that it's possible that his men might return to their rightful duty if Manning could be convinced, and the tensions from the (VERY) recent 10k Arrows allowed to die down without being flamed further.

I don't think this lot has had time to detour to capture any civilians, and KIH says she got away before anyone laid hands on her. One of the sergeants was trying to enforce dicipline on Wilkins the Sexual Harassment Soldier, at least.

Besides, there are plenty of sex slaves in Deadwood. Pick a colour.

@Zek: 1. None of that makes the force there at present the Union Army, though. The Union Army shows up if Custer dies.
2. Only one woman is referenced as Custer's, and his wife only mentioned one when threatening to divorce him, so any other victims are not mentioned there. Regardless, drawing from the pool of already-captured "loot" does not change the dynamic, nor exonerate his men.
3. If he dies, either one takes over or several do. Badly wanting to kill Custer is badly wanting this to happen.

I...don't know how else to put this if you're ignoring basic logistical logic. I made an equation. I corrected yours, everyone else agreed. I don't know where you're getting this "Jackie needs him alive" stuff. Jackie just wants the natives not to die. Which they will do if you kill Custer - even in front of his men, as Zek has loudly proclaimed himself what they'd consider a "race traitor" and native sympathiser.

The men are not going to evaporate if Custer dies. They will become bandits. Bandits are Bad News. What is there not to get about this?

Wait, so all I gotta do to get the Union army to leave the North unprotected is kill this Custer guy?

Hmmmmmmm.......

In reply to Matthew Broaddale (msg # 441):

Manning could get control of the more diciplined troops. He'd need some leverage (like a captured Custer out of his sympathisers' reach) or massive funds from somewhere to keep control of the mercenaries long enough to march them out.

*cough*get Kang on your side*cough*

Tan: Do you think that Manning could step into Custer's spot if Yellow-Hair died?


@Katy: Now you see why Matt was suspicious of Ranger Cox's involvement in the whole affair.

In reply to Tan Xiaohan (msg # 442):

1-The Union is supporting him-from the beginning. He does not have an army without them in the first place.

2-Who is trying to exonerate his men? I said there may be some who are not sociopaths. That's all. And I still disagree with your interpretation.

3-Jackie is the first person who started this 'You can't kill Custer thing' right to Zek's face. That's where I get it.

Again, what you are describing is a possible event-but not the only one.

And wanting is not the same as doing. Never was. Never will be.

Bandits are less bad news than an entire army under Custer's command.

Well realize also a part of this situation in-game is that the Union brass has plausible deniability right now.  They are having their cake and eating it too, with Custer simultaneously making moves that make them closer to getting rid of all those pesky natives so they can take all that sweet sweet ghost rock without having to trade for it, and yet Custer also being a rogue actor.

If the status quo changes to full aggression, it changes the incentives of the Union brass to act a certain way.

Yes. The Union will definitely send their Home Guard to the Dakotas, too. And the Navy. Definitely the Navy. Frikkin' boats all over Mt.Rushmore.

@Matt: see above about mercenaries. If he could solve the money/food-without-raiding problem, he might be able to hold them long enough to them get out using his troops, but if he can't pay them and won't fight them, then they're just back out in the countryside again. Also the issue of keeping Custer secure and/or out of reach.

Like, you'd need someone with a well-armoured rail line and a lot of cash, or something.


@Zek: 1. it's not, though. Hence 'Irregulars', no official rank, and Manning. This is a warband.
2. You were, saying they were just poor starving fellas following orders. To be a killer-for-hire is to be pathological to society, and that's what these men are. They may not be inherent psychopaths, but they're all, certainly, sociopaths. Even if there are a few in there who are otherwise nice people (if you're white), they are tolerating and not stopping the rest. You have no evidence for your interpretion, I have dates, a letter from Mrs.Custer and a probable Custer child for mine. This is a warband.
3. She didn't claim it was anything to do with his effect on the future, though, and I'm sure KIH would tell him the exact same thing.

So...you're saying you think the <0.000000000000000000000000001% chance that the mob of soldiers will literally evaporate is good odds for Zek to risk the lives of every native in the Nations in his hotheaded White Saviour quest? 'Cause I don't think they are.

No, no they're not. An army is in one place, you can fight it and defeat it. Ever heard of the Vietnam War? The Shining Path? Bunch of semi-military-trained peasants scattered throughout the countryside, vanishing when confronted, killing and torturing with impunity.

Know why General Lee surrendered? Because otherwise the American Civil War would have gone on at least a decade as his troops turned guerilla. The Nations can't fight guns for a decade, can't adopt the Dance if they're being shot at at the time. It'd be handing them to War on a plate.

...and all those ex-military bandits above were/would be up against technologically and numerically superior forces, not a struggling and relatively depopulated polity.